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T Dubya
Activist Member
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 02:43 am |
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Someone pointed out earlier that certain members are feeding trolls. I agree. Anyone that gets on this website which is named OPENCARRY.ORG and bashes open carry is a troll and is not one of us.
I don't want to take anything from John, cause he's the Godfather. I just have to give extra kudos to Mike who has done a wonderful job for the movement with getting OCDO in the media.
It looks to me that the press our beloved forum and movement have been getting has attracted the trolls and the naysayers that feel obligated to tell us where we are going wrong with following the letter of the law while excercising our civil right.
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CowboyKen
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 02:50 am |
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KBCraig wrote: CowboyKen wrote: SlackwareRobert wrote: Then why didn't the same thing happen at the Ron Paul rally.
Do you think maybe because he was not under Secret Service protection?
Police escorted Ron Paul at every rally and event he attended. If he had requested SS protection, he would have gotten it.
In this incident in Pennsylvania, it was local and state police who initiated the contact and detained Jack. They notified SS and consulted with them, but it was Pennsylvania police proffering Pennsylvania charges both at the beginning, and in the end. SS protection really had nothing to do with it.
Do you think it will be different at a McCain rally?
Ken
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Grapeshot
Activist Member
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 03:10 am |
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T Dubya wrote: Someone pointed out earlier that certain members are feeding trolls. I agree. Anyone that gets on this website which is named OPENCARRY.ORG and bashes open carry is a troll and is not one of us.
I don't want to take anything from John, cause he's the Godfather. I just have to give extra kudos to Mike who has done a wonderful job for the movement with getting OCDO in the media.
It looks to me that the press our beloved forum and movement have been getting has attracted the trolls and the naysayers that feel obligated to tell us where we are going wrong with following the letter of the law while excercising our civil right.
+1
Sometimes the goal is simply to occupy your time with responding to follishness.
Other times the intent is to get you angry and say something in a manner that is out of character - and will garner you and OCDO negative coverage/press elsewhere.
Even speaking/posting unkindly to them can be used to show our alledged intolerance to other ideas.
My recommendation: Ignore trolls - they whither and blow away if not fed !
Yata hey
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Sonora Rebel
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 05:41 am |
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CowboyKen wrote: Sonora Rebel wrote: ... And that SS 'protection' extends... how far? Nahhh... Jack was effectively (Illegally) 'silenced' for political reasons using surrogate PA-SP. He was intimidated... arrested for convience... had his property siezed and confiscated (Illegally), questioned (Interrogated) illegally and generally kept out of the way (Falsely imprisoned) and quiet for the duration of the annointed one's presence. Dissent is not allowed in the Obama world.
Anybody thinks otherwise has their head up their ass.
Do you think it will be different at a McCain rally?
Ken
Yeah... BECAUSE Jack wasn't within' their PERIMETER... whatever that was s'posed to encompass. The whole county apparently.
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no carry permit ?
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 08:06 am |
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Sonora Rebel wrote: no carry permit ? wrote: I think we need to pick our battles a little more careful. Defending the actions of this nutcase IS NOT A GOOD MOVE FOR OPEN CARRY. This guy is a great example for the anti-gun folks to wave around. WRONG... Troll. Defending this man's actions is EXACTLY what open carry requires. Do you own a firearm? Do you OC, CC or both? I see you don't post your location either. I see the 'pro-gun' folks here have waved you around already a bit. 
Yep, everyone that doesn't agree with you and a few other board bullies is a troll. Yes I open carry daily. No I don't fault law enforcement for doing what they did in this case.
Some of you folks are just a little too much into "in your face" activism for ego gratification. Immature and very BAD strategy in the long term. We can't be known as the group of nuts that shows up around presidential candidates carrying guns, encourages the murder of police officers (if they violate our "rights" ) and other assorted bizarre behavior that I have witnessed in my short time here.
I believe some of you crazies are just intentionally attempting to paint gun owners in bad light.
I stand by my original analysis of Mr. Jack Nutcase. He was trying to provoke an incident, and in that environment that is foolish. I hope he learned his lesson. Show up around the president's security perimeter carrying a gun and there is a high possibility that you will be killed. The secret service isn't going to play around with a bunch of nuts with a point to prove.
There is a right and wrong way to go about advancing open carry and some of you guys need to think about that. I realize most of you are ALL talk and really wouldn't shoot a police officer, but all this tough guy BS needs to stop. Some of you guys are tarnishing open carry.
Carry your gun, use your brain and cool it with the John Wayne bull@#$%.
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longwatch
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 08:25 am |
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Did somebody say something, oh you're still here? Just go away, no one is interested in your defeatist POV.
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Alexcabbie
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 08:39 am |
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no carry permit ? wrote: Sonora Rebel wrote: no carry permit ? wrote: I think we need to pick our battles a little more careful. Defending the actions of this nutcase IS NOT A GOOD MOVE FOR OPEN CARRY. This guy is a great example for the anti-gun folks to wave around. WRONG... Troll. Defending this man's actions is EXACTLY what open carry requires. Do you own a firearm? Do you OC, CC or both? I see you don't post your location either. I see the 'pro-gun' folks here have waved you around already a bit.
Yep, everyone that doesn't agree with you and a few other board bullies is a troll. Yes I open carry daily. No I don't fault law enforcement for doing what they did in this case.
Some of you folks are just a little too much into "in your face" activism for ego gratification. Immature and very BAD strategy in the long term. We can't be known as the group of nuts that shows up around presidential candidates carrying guns, encourages the murder of police officers (if they violate our "rights" ) and other assorted bizarre behavior that I have witnessed in my short time here.
I believe some of you crazies are just intentionally attempting to paint gun owners in bad light.
I stand by my original analysis of Mr. Jack Nutcase. He was trying to provoke an incident, and in that environment that is foolish. I hope he learned his lesson. Show up around the president's security perimeter carrying a gun and there is a high possibility that you will be killed. The secret service isn't going to play around with a bunch of nuts with a point to prove.
There is a right and wrong way to go about advancing open carry and some of you guys need to think about that. I realize most of you are ALL talk and really wouldn't shoot a police officer, but all this tough guy BS needs to stop. Some of you guys are tarnishing open carry.
Carry your gun, use your brain and cool it with the John Wayne [url=mailto:bull@#$%]bull@#$%[/url].
Did I miss something?? I don't remember reading anybody advocating the MURDER OF AN LEO under any circumstance. Look, friend Ubama's Alexandria office is directly across the street from my residence. If His Eloquent Eminence decides to honor his vassals with a visit I may be faced with a "security perimeter" that comes up to my door. I am not about to eff mit der S.S. If they arrive suddenly while I am coming home from the bank or from lunch or whatever and I am armed I'll just have to leave my weapon locked in the console of the Jeep or the glove compartment of my cab or if I am walking just quietly detour down the alley and put it in the trunk before I go in. If I am going out, I'll just have to go out unarmed. But if I am bothered outside the perimeter I will cooperate; and if I am arrested on a phony charge I will as I have said sue the crap out of all and sundry involved. But I will cooperate nonetheless and be polite. And remember everything done and said, all the better to sue them with. I am no "John Wayne" and the bullets in my weapon are reserved exclusively for the protection of precious innocent life and limb, or for the local range where I go to shoot for practice and fun. Icertainly am not gonna MURDER anyone and neither is anyone else here. Right, guys??
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Sonora Rebel
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 08:43 am |
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"encourages the murder of police officers (if they violate our "rights" ) "
You're fulla crap bunkie. NOBODY even suggested anything of the sort.
You haven't the foggiest of what this is all about do ya? Not the first clue. I don't think yer so much a troll as a total 'Tool'.
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CowboyKen
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 01:35 pm |
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Alexcabbie wrote: Did I miss something?? I don't remember reading anybody advocating the MURDER OF AN LEO under any circumstance. Look, friend Ubama's Alexandria office is directly across the street from my residence. If His Eloquent Eminence decides to honor his vassals with a visit I may be faced with a "security perimeter" that comes up to my door. I am not about to eff mit der S.S. If they arrive suddenly while I am coming home from the bank or from lunch or whatever and I am armed I'll just have to leave my weapon locked in the console of the Jeep or the glove compartment of my cab or if I am walking just quietly detour down the alley and put it in the trunk before I go in. If I am going out, I'll just have to go out unarmed. But if I am bothered outside the perimeter I will cooperate; and if I am arrested on a phony charge I will as I have said sue the crap out of all and sundry involved. But I will cooperate nonetheless and be polite. And remember everything done and said, all the better to sue them with. I am no "John Wayne" and the bullets in my weapon are reserved exclusively for the protection of precious innocent life and limb, or for the local range where I go to shoot for practice and fun. Icertainly am not gonna MURDER anyone and neither is anyone else here. Right, guys??
WOW!! A completely reasonable post. Thank you. And an expectation of behavior a little different from what Mr. Noble engaged in.
I admire Mr. Noble's dedication to principle, but that kind of behavior may have a price.
Ken
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Alexcabbie
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 01:58 pm |
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Well, thankee Cowboy. But I wasn't being critical of Mtn Jack, I was just perturbed at the OP saying that some on this post had advocated murder of an LEO. My reasonable behavior example was what I would do if I had to cross a seurity perimeter to get inside my front door or go outside. Mr. Noble IMHO has a case for a lawsuit as he was arrested for what was no crime at all as it turns out. I certainly try as I am sure everyone here does to avoid breaking the law; and if there are laws I do not like I either try and change them or put up with them. As I have said before I much prefer over 
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CowboyKen
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 02:29 pm |
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Alexcabbie wrote: Well, thankee Cowboy. ... Mr. Noble IMHO has a case for a lawsuit as he was arrested for what was no crime at all as it turns out. I certainly try as I am sure everyone here does to avoid breaking the law; and if there are laws I do not like I either try and change them or put up with them. As I have said before I much preferover
You are most welcome.
Mr. Noble is certainly ABLE to sue, however, in my opinion, he has little chance of winning. While I completely agree that he broke no law at all, given his proximity to the appearance of a protected political candidate, I think the courts will find that it was not unreasonable for the authorities to detain him and conduct an investigation under the circumstances. JMHO. YMMV. But if that is the finding I don't think he will win any kind of financial award.
Ken
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Grapeshot
Activist Member
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 02:55 pm |
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We shall see, we shall see.
Yata hey
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ianto94
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 02:58 pm |
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To detain someone requires probably cause that a crime has been or is being committed. Detain is equivalent to arrest. Here Mountain Jack was arrested for doing what is not a crime. That is called false arrest. And false arrest is a tort. One can sue for damages for a tort. This tort is an intentional tort for which punitive damages will lie. I for one hope that MJ sues Beaver County and collects a large judgement or settlement, not to mention getting his gun back.
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cccook
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 03:07 pm |
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CowboyKen wrote: Mr. Noble is certainly ABLE to sue, however, in my opinion, he has little chance of winning. While I completely agree that he broke no law at all, given his proximity to the appearance of a protected political candidate, I think the courts will find that it was not unreasonable for the authorities to detain him and conduct an investigation under the circumstances. JMHO. YMMV. But if that is the finding I don't think he will win any kind of financial award.
I recognise that you feel MTN Jack's actions were ill-advised. My impression is that most others here disagree. IMO the State Police have some 'splainin' to do.
Last edited on Sat Sep 13th, 2008 07:07 am by cccook
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Mike
Super Moderator
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 03:31 pm |
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CowboyKen wrote: I admire Mr. Noble's dedication to principle, but that kind of behavior may have a price.
You mean peacefull completely lawful behavior?
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CowboyKen
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 03:41 pm |
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ianto94 wrote: To detain someone requires probably cause that a crime has been or is being committed. Detain is equivalent to arrest. Here Mountain Jack was arrested for doing what is not a crime. That is called false arrest. And false arrest is a tort. One can sue for damages for a tort. This tort is an intentional tort for which punitive damages will lie. I for one hope that MJ sues Beaver County and collects a large judgement or settlement, not to mention getting his gun back.
To detain someone requires reasonable articulable suspicion (please read Terry). Detain is not equivalent to arrest.
After the investigation was concluded, according to the published reports, the Secret Service handed him back to the State Police (probably with a request to keep him out of the way until after they were gone).
I agree that he did not break any law by open carrying in public in PA.
The State Police charged him, again IMO, as I have stated previously, just to have an excuse to take his gun. This may be found to have been an excess. I do not think that detaining him and investigating his reason for being there will be found to be unreasonable. I think both the Secret Service and the State Police will defend their actions if sued as the precedent is unacceptable to them. I don't think Mr. Noble will win much if anything and the expense may be too much for him to pursue it. I wish him luck.
Ken
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CowboyKen
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 03:42 pm |
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Mike wrote: CowboyKen wrote: I admire Mr. Noble's dedication to principle, but that kind of behavior may have a price.
You mean peacefull completely lawful behavior?
Yes.
Ken
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rodbender
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 03:56 pm |
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CowboyKen wrote: Mike wrote: CowboyKen wrote: I admire Mr. Noble's dedication to principle, but that kind of behavior may have a price.
You mean peacefull completely lawful behavior?
Yes.
Ken
I hope CowboyKen is not a Texan cowboy. Too many like him here and open carry will never pass.
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ianto94
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 04:05 pm |
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CowboyKen wrote: ianto94 wrote: To detain someone requires probably cause that a crime has been or is being committed. Detain is equivalent to arrest. Here Mountain Jack was arrested for doing what is not a crime. That is called false arrest. And false arrest is a tort. One can sue for damages for a tort. This tort is an intentional tort for which punitive damages will lie. I for one hope that MJ sues Beaver County and collects a large judgement or settlement, not to mention getting his gun back.
To detain someone requires reasonable articulable suspicion (please read Terry). Detain is not equivalent to arrest.
After the investigation was concluded, according to the published reports, the Secret Service handed him back to the State Police (probably with a request to keep him out of the way until after they were gone).
I agree that he did not break any law by open carrying in public in PA.
The State Police charged him, again IMO, as I have stated previously, just to have an excuse to take his gun. This may be found to have been an excess. I do not think that detaining him and investigating his reason for being there will be found to be unreasonable. I think both the Secret Service and the State Police will defend their actions if sued as the precedent is unacceptable to them. I don't think Mr. Noble will win much if anything and the expense may be too much for him to pursue it. I wish him luck.
Ken
Terry involved an investigative stop, which at best is a temporary detention. Yes. It requires reasonable articulable suspicion. So suspicion of what here? Carrying a Bible without a license? Carrying a firearm openly is not a basis to suspect someone is violating the law since it is not a crime in PA. Now let's deal with the facts here.
Person is carrying a gun openly, not a crime. Nevertheless, LEO suspects something, what no one has yet said? "Sir, why are you carrying a gun. " Answer: "Because I'm an American." That must have confirmed the suspicion because the next thing is:
"Sir, you are under arrest." How is that defensible?
Being an American gives the police probable cause to arrest?
What exactly does Beaver County need to defend; what precedent do they need to prevent being established. Arresting someone because they are an American? I don't get what precedent you think they would be concerned with other than they don't like open carry. Tough. And yeah, they will defend it, and they will not prevail because they made a false arrest. Disorderly conduct? That's a laugh. So far he has not been cited and he won't be. What might happen is they will negotiate no to charge him and agree to give him his gun back if he does not sue. I hope he says stick it. As for the cost to sue, I expect Jack will be able to find an attorney to take it on principle or contingency. If I practiced in PA, I'd jump at the chance to represent him.
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CowboyKen
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 04:08 pm |
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rodbender wrote: CowboyKen wrote: Mike wrote: CowboyKen wrote: I admire Mr. Noble's dedication to principle, but that kind of behavior may have a price.
You mean peacefull completely lawful behavior?
Yes.
Ken
I hope CowboyKen is not a Texan cowboy. Too many like him here and open carry will never pass.
Why is that, Texas? Do you disagree with what I said here? Many Texans have paid the price for doing what they believed was right. Are you not one of them? There is often a price for your actions that has nothing to do with breaking the law.
Ken
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