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DreQo
State Researcher
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Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 08:08 am |
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A female friend of mine is just starting to get into shooting. One range visit (first time shooting EVER) and she's already shopping for a gun lol. She's only had experience with two calibers so far: A .380 in a smaller sized handgun (Walther PPK/s and Kel-Tec P3AT), and a .40 full-sized SW99. She preferred shooting the Walther, as the .40 "surprised" her, however she shot well even with the .40.
I am going to take her to the range again soon and give her some more experience with the .380 and .40, and hopefully introduce her to a 9mm and a .45. I'm expecting her to gravitate around the .380 and 9mm, at least for her first gun. Obviously I'd love for her to want to carry the .45 or .40 right off the bat, but I'd rather she carry/own something she's more comfortable shooting, in the case that she ever has to use it.
So, I've heard plenty of good and bad about the 9mm, as well as the .380. Mostly what I hear about the .380 is that it's the smallest caliber most people are comfortable with, but they'd prefer something larger. The most common thing I hear about the 9mm is that it over penetrates and makes nice small holes that bad guys don't stop for. Whatever. It kills, and that's what matters.
So, if it comes down to the .380 or the 9mm, which should I suggested? I personally carry the .380, but almost exclusively as a back-up or concealed. I would be comfortable if she carried a .22 for all I care, as long as she's confident and could place the shots if/when she needed to.
Anyway, what do you guys think?
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deepdiver
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Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 08:34 am |
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I think one follows the general rule of thumb that one carries the largest caliber one is comfortable shooting (with the normal caveats about concealability as required, practicality, etc).
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DreQo
State Researcher
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Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 08:42 am |
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deepdiver wrote: I think one follows the general rule of thumb that one carries the largest caliber one is comfortable shooting (with the normal caveats about concealability as required, practicality, etc).
Ah yes, but perhaps you forget that the .380 and the 9mm are the same "caliber". The 9mm simply has more powder behind it, and therefore travels faster. Some people believe that this increased velocity does little more than contribute to over-penetration.
So, the question still stands.
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Pauly
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Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 10:14 am |
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9mm is cheaper to shoot therfore increasing range time resulting in better shot placement. My wife carries a .380 and it is almost as much to fire as my .45ACP. She is looking for an adequate 9mm replacement for her Bersa. I personally carry a 9mm and feel absolutely confindent that I can incapacitate a bad guy if the unfortunate situation arises. I also shoot very regularly and practice my draws. Training is key. Caliber is less important but still very important.
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deepdiver
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Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 10:40 am |
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DreQo wrote: deepdiver wrote: I think one follows the general rule of thumb that one carries the largest caliber one is comfortable shooting (with the normal caveats about concealability as required, practicality, etc).
Ah yes, but perhaps you forget that the .380 and the 9mm are the same "caliber". The 9mm simply has more powder behind it, and therefore travels faster. Some people believe that this increased velocity does little more than contribute to over-penetration.
So, the question still stands.
Good point. In this case substitute largest with heaviest then. The 9mm is a more powerful, heavier load so I would lean that way if she can handle it ok.
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VAopencarry
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 02:43 pm |
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I'd ask her what she likes.
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Dahwg
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Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 04:25 pm |
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Most .380s are blowback so they will actually be "snappier" than a 9mm. If she likes the smaller frame you could also suggest a Bersa 9mm - I would try to get her to go with the double stack mag in that unless it's really uncomfortable for her to shoot (i.e. she has small hands). My wife really likes the Bersa, it's easier for her to rack the slide and the trigger pull is very comfortable for her.
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DreQo
State Researcher
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Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 05:05 pm |
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VAopencarry wrote: I'd ask her what she likes.
Well duh!  If she distinctly prefers a certain caliber/frame style right off the bat, I wont have much to worry about lol. I'm just expecting her to be torn between a few, so I'll need to make some suggestions to get her down to one gun.
I would tend to agree with the comment that the .380 is snappier than the 9mm, but I don't have any first hand experience with that for one reason: Every .380 I have shot was a small frame, and every 9mm I've shot was a large frame. I would expect any round to be more comfortable in a larger frame.
You guys have made a lot of good points about the 9mm, and I agree. I think I'm personally leaning towards the .380 a bit simply because I'm thinking if she got a small .380 as her first gun, she could get a full-sized larger caliber (.45, for instance) down the road, and have that .380 as a concealable option. This is essentially what I did, starting out with the PPK/s, and then buying a .40 after I started openly carrying.
I think I will definitely have to rent a 9mm for her to shoot the next time we're at the range. I'll have to shoot it myself, too!
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swillden
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 05:31 pm |
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roundroundDreQo wrote: Ah yes, but perhaps you forget that the .380 and the 9mm are the same "caliber". The 9mm simply has more powder behind it, and therefore travels faster. Some people believe that this increased velocity does little more than contribute to over-penetration.
How much of an issue is that with JHP ammunition that expands and fragments? From what I've read on the subject, JHP and HP bullets rarely pass all the way through a torso. As long as the bullet doesn't come out the other side, increased velocity (for the same mass) just means increased energy delivered into the target.
The main advantage of a .357 magnum over 9mm is increased muzzle velocity, too -- the extra 0.1mm you get from the .357 can't make that much difference. If it did, the full 1mm diameter increase you get from a .40 or 10mm should make that round hugely more powerful than a .357.
Let's look at the physics a little.
Assuming no expansion or fragmentation (basically, assuming FMJ), the penetration into a uniform solid should be roughly proportional to the kinetic energy of the slug (1/2mv^2) divided by the cross-section of the slug (pi r^2). Picking some bullets and velocities from the Wikipedia pages (I picked the highest listed energy for each round) for the .380, 9mm, .357 magnum, .40 S&W, .44 magnum, .45 ACP and, just for fun, .50 S&W
.380: 95gr, 980 fps, 203 ft lb
9mm: 123gr, 1100 fps, 364 ft lb
.357: 130gr, 1410 fps, 539 ft lb
.40: 155gr, 1140 fps, 447 ft lb
.44: 180gr, 1610 fps, 1036 ft lb
.45: 230gr, 900 fps, 414 ft lb
.50: 350gr, 1975 fps, 3031 ft lb
Using the .380 as a baseline, the relative penetration factors of the cartridges are:
.380: 1 (duh, baseline)
9mm: 1.63
.357: 2.79
.40: 1.74
.44: 3.50
.45: 1.27
.50: 7.54
That assumes FMJ, though, and since cross section is proportional to the square of radius, expansion may change things a bit. Assuming that all JHPs get a 2x expansion factor, the numbers become (still using the FMJ 3.80 as baseline):
.380: .25
9mm: .41
.357: .69
.40: .43
.44: .88
.45: .31
.50: 1.89
So, the .357 still significantly overpenetrates as compared to 9mm, which has penetration very comparable to the .40. The .44 magnum is, of course, in a class all its own, and the .50 S&W is just nuts.
The other difference between these rounds, of course, is the size of the wound channel, but does that really matter that much? Even with expansion factored in, the difference in size between a .45 ACP wound and a .380 wound is not that large. Supposing we were talking about drilling a hole through you with a drill bit, would you really care whether the bit was 11/32" or 14/32"?
I don't think the diameter of the hole makes that miuch difference. What really does the damage isn't so much the actual wound channel, it's the hydrostatic shock delivered by the bullet as it makes that channel. In other words, it's the actual energy delivered to the target. That's what you want to maximize.
If the bullet passes through the target and comes out the other side, then only a portion of the bullet's K.E. is delivered to the target (and the rest of it gets delivered elsewhere, potentially to someone you don't want damaged). So, clearly, you want a bullet that stays in the target. Also, you need to make sure that the hydrostatic shock is delivered to the vital organs, so you want a bullet that does penetrate far enough. The FBI requirement of 12 inches of penetration seems perfect.
Based on all of this, it seems clear to me that if you want to maximize the damage your bullets do, you should choose the round with the highest kinetic energy that does not pass completely through a normal-sized target. My impression is that modern JHPs in .380, 9mm, .40 and .45 rarely come out the other side.
For military use, where full metal jackets are required, I can see a lot of advantage to a bigger, slower round -- a .45 has slightly less K.E. than a 9mm, but significantly less penetration. For civilian and L.E. use, with modern JHPs, I think it's all about energy. Again using the .380 as a baseline, relative energies are:
.380: 1
9mm: 1.63
.357: 2.83
.40: 2.1
.44: 5.11
.45: 2.04
.50: 6.07
Maybe more interesting, using the 9mm as the baseline:
.380: .61
9mm: 1
.357: 1.74
.40: 1.35
.44: 3.13
.45: 1.25
.50: 3.72
I could buy that a .40 is 35% more effective than a 9mm, and a .45 is 25% more effective. A .357 may not be 74% more effective, though, since I think .357s do tend to push bullets clear through the target, wasting some of the energy.
And, as always, the effect of shot placement dwarfs any effect achieved by a larger or more powerful cartridge.
Anyway, getting back to the question at hand... it appears to me that given JHPs that don't usually punch clear through the target, 9mm is a significantly more effective round than a .380. Either will clearly do the job, though, which brings us right back to the oft-repeated recommendation:
Carry the most powerful gun that is practical for you.
Practicality considerations include cost, both to buy and to practice with, size, weight, fit, and personal taste.
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Euromutt
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 07:14 pm |
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DreQo wrote: Ah yes, but perhaps you forget that the .380 and the 9mm are the same 'caliber'. The 9mm simply has more powder behind it, and therefore travels faster.
It's not quite that simple. If you look at bullet weights, you'll see 9mm Short/.380 ACP typically masses 90-95 grains (there are some exceptions), whereas 9mm Para generally comes in 115, 124 and 147 grains. So the 9mm Para packs more punch not just because it has a higher propellant charge; the bullets are also heavier.
Presented with that choice, I'd go with 9mm Para every time. Ammo tends to be cheaper, and there's a wider variety of it available. Plus there's the controllability issue; sure, weapons chambered for .380 ACP produce more felt recoil because they're smaller and (especially) lighter, because .380 ACP is generally considered a caliber suitable for CCW/BUGs and not much else, but that doesn't eliminate the problem. Plus there's a number of 9mm Para subcompacts which are part of a bigger line of polymer guns (Glock, XD, M&P, P99) which has the advantage that you can later add a full-size for HD/OC which will be more comfortable to shoot while using the same ammo and the same manual of arms.
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Agent19
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 07:52 pm |
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Your ammo manufacturer is loading a little light.
Factory ammo
.357mag= 125gr @1600fps/ 710ft. lbs
9mm=124gr. @ 1295fps / 462 ft. lbs.
.380= 95gr. @ 1100fps / 242 ft. lbs. 3.5" bbl
.40SW= 155gr. @ 1275fps / 560 ft/lbs
.45acp= 230gr. @ 1010fps/ 521 ft./lbs
.44mag=240gr. @ 1500fps - 1200 ft./lbs
.45LC= 250gr @ 1450fps - 1191 ft./lbs
Spend a few bucks at the range and let her decide.
Have a range day with a bunch of friends ask them to bring an array of firearms and calibers, then all you have to worry about is ammo.
You might be surprised by her decision, just be sure to steer her to a quaility firearm.Last edited on Tue Mar 11th, 2008 07:58 pm by Agent19
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imperialism2024
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 08:10 pm |
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I'd also start her with larger calibers, and work downward until she finds something she likes. IMO, people tend to underestimate the largest caliber they can control and that is practical. Sure, after shooting 9mm's and .380's, a big scary .357 magnum might seem too powerful. But start with a few shots from a .44 magnum, and then afterward the .357 will seem like a lightweight, easily controllable caliber.
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swillden
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 08:46 pm |
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Agent19 wrote: Your ammo manufacturer is loading a little light.
As I said in my post, I just took the numbers from Wikipedia, using the highest-energy load listed for each cartridge. Your numbers are all heavier loads, but they don't change the relative proportions significantly.
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FightingGlock19
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Posted: Wed Mar 12th, 2008 03:22 pm |
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VAopencarry wrote: I'd ask her what she likes.
Women can drive a car and operate the gas, brakes, steering, signals, lights and radio while at the same time applying make-up and talking on a cell phone...and they are too stupid to pick their own gun, man. I like your idea, though, maybe it might catch on someday.
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compmanio365
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Mar 12th, 2008 07:46 pm |
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FightingGlock19 wrote: VAopencarry wrote: I'd ask her what she likes.
Women can drive a car and operate the gas, brakes, steering, signals, lights and radio while at the same time applying make-up and talking on a cell phone...and they are too stupid to pick their own gun, man. I like your idea, though, maybe it might catch on someday.
Wow......I mean, I thought you were a jerk before, but you just left no doubt with that post. What a douche.
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Euromutt
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Mar 13th, 2008 08:10 am |
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I think FightingGlock may have been being sarcastic there, compmanio. It's that darn "you can't hear intonation" in writing thing again.
I can see his point to some extent, too. Of course ultimately, the choice of weapon has to fall to the person who's supposed to be using it, so yeah, you should ask her. But that doesn't mean you can't solicit some advice from knowledgable people as well. They could help you eliminate some candidates, or suggest others that you might not have though of yourself.
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cbigbrick
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Mar 13th, 2008 02:45 pm |
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Rent to see what she likes. If she can handle the 40 S&W, then try the HK P2000. It comes in 3 calibers and has interchangable backstraps. That was important to me because of my small hands. Also look at the Walther PPS 9mm, which is suppose to be out in a 40 S&W this spring. Ammo for the 9mm is cheap, like 1000 rounds for 200 bucks. If money is an issue...Glock. Make sure she knows how to clean the gun.
For further reading try here....
http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm
http://www.chuckhawks.com/armed_female.htm
http://www.chuckhawks.com/guns_home_defense.htm
TAKE SOME CLASSES!! Best thing I ever did!!! I just blew though 300 rounds in my intermediate handgun class alone and he gave me homework!!!
Happy and safe shooting!!
Cheers,
C
41/f
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FightingGlock19
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Posted: Fri Mar 14th, 2008 08:47 pm |
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Euromutt wrote: I think FightingGlock may have been being sarcastic there, compmanio. It's that darn "you can't hear intonation" in writing thing again.
I can see his point to some extent, too. Of course ultimately, the choice of weapon has to fall to the person who's supposed to be using it, so yeah, you should ask her. But that doesn't mean you can't solicit some advice from knowledgable people as well. They could help you eliminate some candidates, or suggest others that you might not have though of yourself.
9 times, out of 10, when I see a husband/wife in the local gunstore, it's the husband looking at the guns to pick one for the wife. The wife ends up looking at other things while the husband is asking more questions about the guns he's looking at.
If I offer my input, the wife, of the husband/wife duo, is the one I speak with. It usually irritates the husband, as he had intentions of buying her a .38 revolver. Remember, women do all that stuff with a car, yet they can't operate the slide of a semi-auto (in those guys' minds).
I'll tell anybody selecting a handgun for personal defence the same thing, it doesn't matter what sex they are, if they're receptive to my offerings of real-world experiences.
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Dahwg
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Posted: Fri Mar 14th, 2008 09:12 pm |
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FightingGlock19 wrote: Euromutt wrote: I think FightingGlock may have been being sarcastic there, compmanio. It's that darn "you can't hear intonation" in writing thing again.
I can see his point to some extent, too. Of course ultimately, the choice of weapon has to fall to the person who's supposed to be using it, so yeah, you should ask her. But that doesn't mean you can't solicit some advice from knowledgable people as well. They could help you eliminate some candidates, or suggest others that you might not have though of yourself.
9 times, out of 10, when I see a husband/wife in the local gunstore, it's the husband looking at the guns to pick one for the wife. The wife ends up looking at other things while the husband is asking more questions about the guns he's looking at.
If I offer my input, the wife, of the husband/wife duo, is the one I speak with. It usually irritates the husband, as he had intentions of buying her a .38 revolver. Remember, women do all that stuff with a car, yet they can't operate the slide of a semi-auto (in those guys' minds).
I'll tell anybody selecting a handgun for personal defence the same thing, it doesn't matter what sex they are, if they're receptive to my offerings of real-world experiences.
Exactly right. We were at the gun shop yesterday and when the salesperson came to discuss things with my wife, I high-tailed it out of there with the kid. Let her do her own decision making- she's leaning toward the Bersa Thunderer Plus .380 with high cap mag. It's what SHE'S Most comfortable with.
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deepdiver
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Posted: Fri Mar 14th, 2008 11:03 pm |
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Going to the gun show Sunday with the fiancee and she is going to see if she finds something she likes. I'm going to take the advice from the last few posts and just shut up unless she asks me a question.
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