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MuellerBadener
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Posted: Mon Jun 22nd, 2009 09:17 pm |
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I was just at Greenwood Health Center in Midvale for a doctor's appointment and was told I would not be treated unless I took my firearm to my car. There is no sign and I had not heard that it was prohibitted to take a firearm into a healthcare facility. (both claims were made) I had my three little girls and my wife with me so I didn't make a stink, but if I am within my rights to carry there, I will certainly make an issue of it. This is a University of Utah owned facility, so private property rights are not at issue here.
Last edited on Mon Jun 22nd, 2009 09:19 pm by MuellerBadener
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thx997303
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Posted: Mon Jun 22nd, 2009 09:52 pm |
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Yep, you are completely within your rights, assuming you weren't in a school zone without a permit.
You should be angry.
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mqondo
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Posted: Mon Jun 22nd, 2009 11:54 pm |
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I've never heard of or read a law that restricts carry in a health care facility. That is unless it is a mental ward and is a secure location, and has a sign that states you can't have a firearm in there. But I doubt you would have been there with your wife and daughters.
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b1ack5mith
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 12:34 am |
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| if i went to the doctors, i would carry... but i refuse (unless its a life threatening thing) to go to the doctors. i have some sort of infection that ive had for over a week, and i still wont go lol. has anyone ever carried into payson hospital?
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JoeSparky
Centurion Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 12:56 am |
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mqondo wrote: I've never heard of or read a law that restricts carry in a health care facility. That is unless it is a mental ward and is a secure location, and has a sign that states you can't have a firearm in there. But I doubt you would have been there with your wife and daughters.
the law with regard to Mental Facilities also REQUIRES that they have a secure area for STORAGE of firearms while you are visiting or conducting your business.
I just did a google search on this facility.... it is IN FACT a UNIVERSITY HEALTHCARE FACILITY... they ARE STATE PROPERTY and run by a STATE AGENCY (UNIVERSITY OF UTAH). I don't know if the doctor therin is a State Employee or a Private Physician ( I lean toward an employee of the State, but I don't know this for a fact.)
It is in VIOLATION OF THE STATE PRE-EMPTION LAW! They are NOT one of the named exceptions and are not authorized by the legislature to regulate firearm possession!
Seems like a STRONGLY WORDED letter needs to be sent to the Doctors office involved, with CC's to University of Utah, and Utah's Attorney General detailing this situation....
Do I dare suggest an OPEN CARRY VISIT IN THE WAITING ROOM OF THE FACILITY?
Last edited on Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 01:04 am by JoeSparky
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MudPounder
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 03:41 am |
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JoeSparky wrote: mqondo wrote: I've never heard of or read a law that restricts carry in a health care facility. That is unless it is a mental ward and is a secure location, and has a sign that states you can't have a firearm in there. But I doubt you would have been there with your wife and daughters.
the law with regard to Mental Facilities also REQUIRES that they have a secure area for STORAGE of firearms while you are visiting or conducting your business.
I just did a google search on this facility.... it is IN FACT a UNIVERSITY HEALTHCARE FACILITY... they ARE STATE PROPERTY and run by a STATE AGENCY (UNIVERSITY OF UTAH). I don't know if the doctor therin is a State Employee or a Private Physician ( I lean toward an employee of the State, but I don't know this for a fact.)
It is in VIOLATION OF THE STATE PRE-EMPTION LAW! They are NOT one of the named exceptions and are not authorized by the legislature to regulate firearm possession!
Seems like a STRONGLY WORDED letter needs to be sent to the Doctors office involved, with CC's to University of Utah, and Utah's Attorney General detailing this situation....
Do I dare suggest an OPEN CARRY VISIT IN THE WAITING ROOM OF THE FACILITY?
what is the purpose of an OPEN CARRY VISIT TO THE WAITING ROOM? Is this simply to have a confrontation?
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mqondo
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 03:43 am |
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JoeSparky wrote:
Do I dare suggest an OPEN CARRY VISIT IN THE WAITING ROOM OF THE FACILITY?
DARE! DARE!
Sending a letter to all of the above would be a good idea. May have been different if they asked YOU to leave. But they asked your gun to leave. They don't have authority under state law to regulate that, as you stated above.
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MuellerBadener
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 05:14 am |
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JoeSparky wrote: mqondo wrote: I've never heard of or read a law that restricts carry in a health care facility. That is unless it is a mental ward and is a secure location, and has a sign that states you can't have a firearm in there. But I doubt you would have been there with your wife and daughters.
the law with regard to Mental Facilities also REQUIRES that they have a secure area for STORAGE of firearms while you are visiting or conducting your business.
I just did a google search on this facility.... it is IN FACT a UNIVERSITY HEALTHCARE FACILITY... they ARE STATE PROPERTY and run by a STATE AGENCY (UNIVERSITY OF UTAH). I don't know if the doctor therin is a State Employee or a Private Physician ( I lean toward an employee of the State, but I don't know this for a fact.)
It is in VIOLATION OF THE STATE PRE-EMPTION LAW! They are NOT one of the named exceptions and are not authorized by the legislature to regulate firearm possession!
Seems like a STRONGLY WORDED letter needs to be sent to the Doctors office involved, with CC's to University of Utah, and Utah's Attorney General detailing this situation....
Do I dare suggest an OPEN CARRY VISIT IN THE WAITING ROOM OF THE FACILITY?
After a follow up call to Univerity security, I am indeed in the right. I aksed security to do some re-education on open carry and concealed carry as well as I am 99% sure this is a matter ignorance on the part of the staff. I can only afford to take the matter so far though as:
A I work for University Health Myself. (And yes, I know for a fact that the Dr is a state employee, but he was as suprised by the action as I was)
B The manager involved is my manager's sister. (No, by rights they couldn't fire for such a conflict, but let's all remember that we live in the real world, and not the "should be" world )
I'll being doing my best to resolve this from inside the system. I know a few members of UUHC seccurity and work in the office right next to the Attorney General's Office, so hopefully I can muster the resources I need to make sure this doesn't happen again to me or anyone else!
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SGT Jensen
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 06:37 am |
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JoeSparky wrote: Do I dare suggest an OPEN CARRY VISIT IN THE WAITING ROOM OF THE FACILITY?
Sounds like a bad idea, unless the cafeteria has some kick a$$ cheeseburgers! (which I highly doubt) 
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utbagpiper
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 06:58 am |
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MuellerBadener wrote: I was just at Greenwood Health Center in Midvale for a doctor's appointment and was told I would not be treated unless I took my firearm to my car. There is no sign and I had not heard that it was prohibitted to take a firearm into a healthcare facility. (both claims were made) I had my three little girls and my wife with me so I didn't make a stink, but if I am within my rights to carry there, I will certainly make an issue of it. This is a University of Utah owned facility, so private property rights are not at issue here.
As a State owned and operated facility that is not listed as having authority to regulate guns it seems pretty obvious to me that these guys have no power to limit lawfully carried guns. That said, just a little something to chew on.
My wife used to work for the Red Cross. From time to time they would do a blood draw at a police station. The whole force would donate, sometimes after an officer had been hurt and needed blood. From some past experience, SOP was to require the officers to disarm before donating. They could give the gun to another officer to hold, lock it up somewhere, or even put their duty belt under the donation cot out of reach. The Red Cross simply would not draw blood from someone who was visibly armed. Why?
Well, every once in a while someone will faint from donating blood. And every so often an armed person who faints will reach for his firearm as he comes to. I don't know exactly how common this is, maybe only happened once in all of Red Cross history. But it was deemed a legit safety concern and so that was the rule.
In any event, I can certainly imagine procedures (going under general anesthesia for example) in which it would be foolish and dangerous to be armed; similar to being drunk while armed. Or perhaps a painful or unpleasant procedure.
But barring being the subject of such a procedure, I see no good reason not to be armed if you so choose. Indeed, given the potential for violent persons (wounded gang members, the mentally ill, those in extreme pain or distress, drug addicts, etc) to be present at a doctor's office, clinic, or ER, I consider it one of the places where being armed is most warranted. After all, we've never had a shooting at my office. But Alta View in quiet little Sandy was the scene of a hostage situation and murder at one time.
I do generally choose to CC when at a clinic, hospital, or doctor for myself or when accompanying a family member just to avoid the hassle you mention. I hate hospitals enough without extra hassle. But when casually visiting someone I have been known to CCC or OC.
I wish you the best in pursuing this and getting it resolved. Please let me know if you see any signs or other formal policy banning guns at this or other State owned facilities.
Thanks.
Charles
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bmeldrum
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Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 08:35 pm |
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utbagpiper wrote: From some past experience, SOP was to require the officers to disarm before donating. The Red Cross simply would not draw blood from someone who was visibly armed.
That is interesting. I donated blood about a month ago for a local blood drive in our community, for our LDS stake. I was oc at the time, went through all the screening and then climbed up into the cot, they started prepping my arm and the nurse said "nice gun, are you a police officer". I said "no but it's not against the law" blah blah & gave her the run down. (I don't faint when I donate), well as she was about to insert the 14gauge needle(big a@# needle) she says just don't shoot me when I poke you! LOL. Long story short while I was donating she sat and talked with me about guns. Maybe its just protocol for certain places...
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Outsider
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Posted: Thu Jun 25th, 2009 08:35 pm |
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This goes along with the same myth of "There is a law saying no firearms in banks." It just isn't true and being a UofU building and facility they should know this by now! Call the AG!
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MuellerBadener
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Posted: Wed Jul 8th, 2009 03:20 am |
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Well, finally spoke with a Mr. Newman from UUHC clinics Risk management (And he's 'an attorney by the way, but non-practicing') who informed me that the Univesity of Utah considers itself 'Legislative exempt" from the pre-emption clause in the Utah state code and will refuse ervice to anyone openly carrying a firearm and will expell any student that does so. He advised me that he's spoken with Utah director of Public Safety, (who is the second highest LEO in the statde, "and a neighbor of mine, by the way") who concurred that Utah residents have no right to carry on U of U property. When asked where I might find this exemption in the stae code or the legislative record, I was advised to "hire your own attorney and find out" I finished the conversation by letting him know how ashamed i was of my State and employer in this matter and hoped he felt real good about himself.
P.S He advised me that he read thid thread and knew that I was planning an open carry "sit-in". I advised him that if he'd read the thread i said no such thing and suggested that the matter be handled internally. I am open to suggestions. I am not well off and cannot afford an attorney on my own, but am upset and feel pretty pi$$ed on.
Last edited on Wed Jul 8th, 2009 03:21 am by MuellerBadener
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bmeldrum
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Posted: Wed Jul 8th, 2009 05:00 am |
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MuellerBadener wrote: Well, finally spoke with a Mr. Newman from UUHC clinics Risk management (And he's 'an attorney by the way, but non-practicing') who informed me that the Univesity of Utah considers itself 'Legislative exempt" from the pre-emption clause in the Utah state code and will refuse ervice to anyone openly carrying a firearm and will expell any student that does so. He advised me that he's spoken with Utah director of Public Safety, (who is the second highest LEO in the statde, "and a neighbor of mine, by the way") who concurred that Utah residents have no right to carry on U of U property. When asked where I might find this exemption in the stae code or the legislative record, I was advised to "hire your own attorney and find out" I finished the conversation by letting him know how ashamed i was of my State and employer in this matter and hoped he felt real good about himself.
P.S He advised me that he read thid thread and knew that I was planning an open carry "sit-in". I advised him that if he'd read the thread i said no such thing and suggested that the matter be handled internally. I am open to suggestions. I am not well off and cannot afford an attorney on my own, but am upset and feel pretty pi$$ed on.
Well, not sure if this is helpful but this was on the university page:
http://www.regulations.utah.edu/general/1-003.html
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utbagpiper
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Posted: Wed Jul 8th, 2009 05:43 am |
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MuellerBadener wrote: I am open to suggestions. I am not well off and cannot afford an attorney on my own, but am upset and feel pretty pi$$ed on.
Please call the Utah AG's office as soon as possible during business hours and ask to leave a message for AG Mark Shurtleff. The Utah Supreme Court decision in UoU v. Shurtleff makes clear that the UoU IS bound to obey State gun laws and if they are still flaunting the rule of law, the AG and EVERY one of our legislators need to know about it.
Charles Hardy
GOUtah!
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W Clark Aposhian
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Posted: Wed Jul 8th, 2009 06:05 am |
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I will take this up tomorrow but will need some names.
Please email me at clark@fairwarning.biz
Clark Aposhian
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W Clark Aposhian
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Posted: Wed Jul 8th, 2009 06:18 am |
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who was it who made the statement at the office?
how did she know you were carrying
did she contact a supervisor?
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MuellerBadener
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Posted: Wed Jul 8th, 2009 07:15 am |
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W Clark Aposhian wrote: who was it who made the statement at the office?
how did she know you were carrying
did she contact a supervisor?
A medical asst. named David in Dr. Villalobos's office noticed I was OCing. he called the supervising RN Linda Hernandez (Herrera?) who told me that I would have to take my firearm to my car or leave and that I would not be treated while in possesion of a firearm. I called U of U security and was told as far as they knew OC was fine as long as legal. The next day I left a voice mail for the Greenwood site director (cannot remember her name) but didn't hear back from anyone till today when Curtis Newman called me. He said that the law doesn't specifically state that I can OC on U of U property, so the University's view is that therefore I can't. (Where this logic came from, he would not specify) As per the polcy link in the above post is the only written policy I was able to find, however Mr. Newman assures me that what he stated is the policy, and as he is an attorney and his neighbor Leo bigshot agrees with him, that is the end of it. I was told that if I wanted to litigate the matter to go ahead and do so. He recommended I can the University's General counsel, but I don't see where asking their attorney for advise is in my inerest. Mr Newman also stated that the University was made exempt from OC by the legistature. I asked him where I might find that action in the Utah stae code or in the legislative record and was promptly told to hire my own attorney to find as he was not obligated to tell me and wouldn't. I asked why the university thought they had a right to abbrogate my right to keep and bear arms. His response was that as far as the University was concerned, I don't have any right to do so. At that point I told him I was ashamed of the U and hoped he was proud of himself for his stance and disconnected the call so I didn't respond angrily on the phone. probably not the best response but I was shocked and angry.
Since I am also an employee, I am at a disadvantage here, and although he never said as much, I took the inference from him that if I do create a confrontation on this, my job may be jepordized. I can email anything you need if you give me a bit of advance notice.
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gunsfreak4791
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Posted: Wed Jul 8th, 2009 07:33 am |
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| Clark Glad to see your on the Board
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UTOC-45-44
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Posted: Wed Jul 8th, 2009 02:47 pm |
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bmeldrum wrote: MuellerBadener wrote: Well, finally spoke with a Mr. Newman from UUHC clinics Risk management (And he's 'an attorney by the way, but non-practicing') who informed me that the Univesity of Utah considers itself 'Legislative exempt" from the pre-emption clause in the Utah state code and will refuse ervice to anyone openly carrying a firearm and will expell any student that does so. He advised me that he's spoken with Utah director of Public Safety, (who is the second highest LEO in the statde, "and a neighbor of mine, by the way") who concurred that Utah residents have no right to carry on U of U property. When asked where I might find this exemption in the stae code or the legislative record, I was advised to "hire your own attorney and find out" I finished the conversation by letting him know how ashamed i was of my State and employer in this matter and hoped he felt real good about himself.
P.S He advised me that he read thid thread and knew that I was planning an open carry "sit-in". I advised him that if he'd read the thread i said no such thing and suggested that the matter be handled internally. I am open to suggestions. I am not well off and cannot afford an attorney on my own, but am upset and feel pretty pi$$ed on.
Well, not sure if this is helpful but this was on the university page:
http://www.regulations.utah.edu/general/1-003.html
Policy 1-003: Firearms on Campus (Interim Policy)
- Purpose
- To set forth the University’s Policy on firearms on campus and to provide that violation of this Policy subjects faculty, staff and students to internal University disciplinary processes.
- Definitions
- None
- Policy
- The University of Utah enforces state law regulating firearms on campus. This enforcement occurs in two ways. First, University police will investigate and take appropriate action, up to and including referral for criminal prosecution, when violations occur. Second, the University will consider any violation of state law regulating firearms to be a violation of University Policy. Accordingly, such a violation is subject to disciplinary action under University disciplinary policies applicable to faculty, students, and staff.
- Rules, Procedures, Guidelines, Forms and Related Resources
- Rules [reserved]
- Procedures [reserved]
- Guidelines [reserved]
- Forms [reserved]
- Other related resource materials [reserved]
- References
- State Law
- 76-10-500 Uniform Law (Right to bear arms in Utah)
- 76-10-501 Definitions.
- 76-10-505.5 Possession of a dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed off shotgun on or about school premises – Penalties.
- 76-3-203.2 Definitions – Use of dangerous weapon in offenses committed on or about school premises – Enhanced penalties.
- Exceptions
- 53-5-704 Division duties -- Permit to carry concealed firearm -- Certification for concealed firearms instructor -- Requirements for issuance -- Violation -- Denial, suspension, or revocation -- Appeal Procedure.
- 53-5-705 Temporary permit to carry concealed firearm – Denial, suspension, or revocation – Appeal.
- 76-10-511 Possession of loaded weapon at residence authorized.
- 76-10-523 Persons exempt from weapons laws.
- University of Utah Policies
- Policy 5-310 Violence in the Workplace and Academic Environment
- Policy 5-111 Corrective Action and Termination Policy for Staff Employees
- Policy 6-400 Code of Student Rights and Responsibilities
- Policy 6-316 Code of Faculty Rights and Responsibilities
- Contacts:
- Policy Owner: Vice President/General Counsel, 801-585-7002
- Policy Officer: Office of General Counsel, 801-585-7002
- History:
- This interim Policy was adopted on September 24, 2007 by action of the Executive Committee of the Board of Trustees. This Policy will remain in effect until a permanent Policy is adopted after review by appropriate internal University groups.
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