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PT111
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Aug 4th, 2008 03:27 pm |
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She says "well, you don't have to do anything, but you'd be doing me a favor if I could see some ID."
I think it was a good encounter. If you had refused to provide ID and started declaring your rights which many would, the next time this LEO gets a call about MWAG would she approach the person with the same attitude. If she even sees someone with a gun would she have the same attitude or will it be different?
I think your actions presented a positive image all around for everyone involved and the couple that reported it now have at least see one person carrying a gun that isn't psycho and running around protesting. This image can easily be destroyed but the more people see that there is no problem and nothing to be alarmed about the better it is.
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vermonter
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Posted: Thu Aug 7th, 2008 07:11 am |
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I agree with PT111. I can hear the flames coming from the "Virginia Bunch", but I understand why. I have traveled extensively and I see the powder blue cars in VA on the interstate harassing EVERYONE. Here in VT we have no issues with LEO's. If they want to see ID, fine. They are not trying to harass you here like in other states. We have the most laid back police in the country. Similar to the west in many ways. Except for officer's Labarge and Clark in Burlington..... but all they do is write to many tickets! 
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vermonter
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Posted: Thu Aug 7th, 2008 07:11 am |
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| Duplicate... Sorry Last edited on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 07:11 am by vermonter
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bobcat
Regular Member
| Joined: | Sun Aug 19th, 2007 |
| Location: | Great Lakes, USA |
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Posted: Thu Aug 7th, 2008 03:59 pm |
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Sounds like a good encounter. While I would probably not hand over an ID, each of us has to do what we believe is the right thing to do in each circumstance. I am not second guessing you, glockrocker as it was you on the spot and not me. Great to hear about LEO's that understand the laws and are professional.
One question about the MWAG calls and the complainants. I have yet to notice any discussion about LEO's discussing the laws with the complainants. In other words, don't be making MWAG calls for someone unless they are threatening with a firearm, brandishing or other such foolishness. In general, if the firearms stays in the holster, and there is no unwarranted threat of use, there is no problem...
Seems to me, the ill informed and at worst anti's could just look for ways to harrass OC'ers and just skate away without so much as a contact by LEO's for an unwarranted report or even 'false reporting', which can get a citation by itself.
Seems like the next logical step (educationally speaking) is to ask the responding LEO to discuss OC with the complainant and return with comments to the 'aggrieved'? This should be working both ways...
Comments? Actual experiences?
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ProtectedBy9mm
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Aug 8th, 2008 07:32 am |
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VT sounds badass.
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Dustin
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Aug 8th, 2008 10:11 pm |
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If you were both single, I'd be looking for her again 
A Pro OC, LEO for a Girlfriend/Wife, Sounds testy 
Last edited on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 10:12 pm by Dustin
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Jared
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Aug 10th, 2008 04:37 pm |
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vermonter wrote: I agree with PT111. I can hear the flames coming from the "Virginia Bunch", but I understand why. I have traveled extensively and I see the powder blue cars in VA on the interstate harassing EVERYONE. Here in VT we have no issues with LEO's. If they want to see ID, fine. They are not trying to harass you here like in other states. We have the most laid back police in the country. Similar to the west in many ways. Except for officer's Labarge and Clark in Burlington..... but all they do is write to many tickets!
Not true, Vermont has a lot of hacks. My father received a speeding ticket a couple of years ago for an accused speed that he was not doing.
In 2000, now retired Fish and Game Warden Jim Patch who worked in Windsor County tried to confiscate fireworks we had for the 4th of July because we didn't have a federal "pyrotechnics" permit. He was wrong on the law.... but I'm not suprised. All we had to do was get approval from the local fire chief, which we did. The constible ended up taking the fireworks and after the hack left, he brought them back to us and we lit them off.
Oh yeah, the game warden use to be the biggest poacher before he was hired on.
Sorry, but VT has a lot of hacks, my parents love it in VT, but I can't stand the place. My motto for the state is... "Vermont... the state where nothing is legal except for carrying a knife or pistol."
As far as open carry in Vermont.... I never had a problem so I give them points for that.
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ProtectedBy9mm
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Aug 10th, 2008 11:24 pm |
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Jared wrote: vermonter wrote: I agree with PT111. I can hear the flames coming from the "Virginia Bunch", but I understand why. I have traveled extensively and I see the powder blue cars in VA on the interstate harassing EVERYONE. Here in VT we have no issues with LEO's. If they want to see ID, fine. They are not trying to harass you here like in other states. We have the most laid back police in the country. Similar to the west in many ways. Except for officer's Labarge and Clark in Burlington..... but all they do is write to many tickets!
.... "Vermont... the state where nothing is legal except for carrying a knife or pistol."...
Lol
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modificationvt
Regular Member
| Joined: | Sun Jul 13th, 2008 |
| Location: | Burlington |
| Posts: | 39 |
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Posted: Wed Aug 13th, 2008 07:52 pm |
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sounds like a good encounter, I would have handed over my ID as well. after all what damage could be done by handing it over, and what good could come from refusing to hand it over.
I have had a couple run ins with burlington LEO and some have been good, some not so good. (the one gun related runin was good) it is usualy clear from how they approch you how the encounter is going to go.
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Venator
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Aug 26th, 2008 08:25 pm |
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glockrocker wrote: I was open carrying on Church Street in Burlington a few days ago. Wasn't really buying anything big, just walking around, killing time, etc. I decided to stop at the kettle corn place that's down towards Borders. Those of you from the area know that it lives up to its "a-maize-ing" name. As I was paying I noticed a female police officer walking towards me, and concerned looking couple not too far away. I thought the worst, but was pleasantly surprised.
This woman comes up, and introduces herself as Officer Berti. She says that she received a complaint about me open carrying. I'm about to go on the defensive, explaining the laws, etc, when she says: "I'm sorry to trouble you over nothing, but since I have a complaint I just need to make sure everything's on the up and up." I'm relieved but not quite sure what to think, so I asked "What that would entail?" She says "well, you don't have to do anything, but you'd be doing me a favor if I could see some ID." I'm opposed to presenting ID to LEOs, but with this level of politeness and professionalism I felt no need to be hostile. She takes a few minutes to run it, then hands it back to me and says "I'm sure you knew that was going to come back clean." I said "yeah, if I was going to carry illegally I would conceal." She laughed and we continued to chat for a bit.
Since the concerned couple was still staring, probably bewildered that I wasn't in handcuffs yet, I asked if they were the ones who complained. She replied "If they are they aren't being too subtle!" I guess she can't/didn't want to share. We continued to chat about guns for a bit, then we shook hands and went out separate ways.
Rock on Vermont!
She just manipulated you into giving up your right. She should go far in the department especially in PR. I bet she gets lots of free drinks at bars from guys like you. But okay she was cute.
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langloisandy
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| Joined: | Wed Aug 20th, 2008 |
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Posted: Sun Aug 31st, 2008 01:48 pm |
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Jared,
Sorry to burst your bubble BUT...
re: Fireworks: They are illegal in Vermont, period and can get you a cite into court. (or arrest if you meet the criteria) If you have a License for commercial fireworks, you must have the Fire Chiefs permission.
http://www.leg.state.vt.us/statutes/fullsection.cfm?Title=20&Chapter=177&Section=03131
http://www.leg.state.vt.us/statutes/fullsection.cfm?Title=20&Chapter=177&Section=03132
http://www.leg.state.vt.us/statutes/fullsection.cfm?Title=20&Chapter=177&Section=03135
Andy
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ixtow
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 27th, 2009 09:39 am |
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This is interesting... People give me crap for posting in other state's threads, but I like presenting myself with hypotheticals, like; "what if I was approached by a police officer who was not a complete piece of crap."
How about this; why not invite the belligerent pricks who 'reported' you over to join the discussion?
ID, hrm, I'd have a hard time with that one. But as you said, this officer made it clear that you didn't have to. I would have probably done something similar to what you did, but made a point to say "I'm only doing this because you recognize the fact that I don't have to." I don't have a problem with 'showing my papers,' so long as it isn't an order. Given the opportunity to VOLUNTEER to prove my innocence, I wouldn't have a problem thumbing my nose at the degenerate complainers.
I'd have to ask the filth that called 911 to please stop wasting my tax money with their crusades...
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Venator
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 27th, 2009 02:24 pm |
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glockrocker wrote: I was a little worried you guys would be on me for giving ID, glad to see that isn't the case. As you guys said, I think a friendly encounter is always better.
S.E. WI,
She was pretty cute, and I'm mildly charming, but alas, no phone number .
I'll give you crap for giving ID. Don't do it. It just reinforces the police that they will get what they want. Whether it's a 250 lbs ugly LEO who demands your ID or it's a 115 lbs cutey who ask so coyly, if you comply the result is the same, the continued erosion of our personal rights and freedoms.
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ixtow
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 27th, 2009 08:22 pm |
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Venator wrote: glockrocker wrote: I was a little worried you guys would be on me for giving ID, glad to see that isn't the case. As you guys said, I think a friendly encounter is always better.
S.E. WI,
She was pretty cute, and I'm mildly charming, but alas, no phone number .
I'll give you crap for giving ID. Don't do it. It just reinforces the police that they will get what they want. Whether it's a 250 lbs ugly LEO who demands your ID or it's a 115 lbs cutey who ask so coyly, if you comply the result is the same, the continued erosion of our personal rights and freedoms.
I'm not sure the coy cutie is what really matters here.
Which helps educate (or irritate) the onlooking douche bags more? Which helps the PR of Open Carry more?
I'm a JBT hating Mo Fo to the core. But, according to the OP, this Officer specifically stated "you don't have to"
I would be happy to hold my ground in the face of a dirtbag cop who 'demands' I do something I don't have to. But one who acknowledges, up front, that it would just be 'helpful' (how, exactly? BS, or course), but NOT required... This officer at least acknowledges where the line is and was asking, not insisting. That is a win, in my book. With onlooking douche bags... I would do just as the OP so that the onlookers see nothing but smiles and cordiality. The onlookers clearly have no idea what rights exist and do not; make it all pretty and disappoint them.
I would have liked to see what happened if the OP had, instead, said; 'We both know I don't have to, what favor are you gonna do for me in return for surrendering my rights?'
I sometimes wonder how differently my own path in Law Enforcement would have gone, if I hadn't tried to start it in FL...
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Jared
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jul 28th, 2009 03:10 am |
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| You didn't burst my bubble.... Because we had permission from the local government. The Moron tried telling us we needed a state pyrotechnics permit.... Which you do not.
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NavyLT
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jul 28th, 2009 04:14 pm |
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glockrocker wrote: "I'm sorry to trouble you over nothing, but since I have a complaint I just need to make sure everything's on the up and up." I'm relieved but not quite sure what to think, so I asked "What that would entail?" She says "well, you don't have to do anything, but you'd be doing me a favor if I could see some ID."
I might have asked her to do me a favor and speak to the complainers and explain to them the laws regarding firearms carry. That's what I don't understand is why the cops always come to us, vice going to the complainer.
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unarmed in westchester
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 29th, 2009 08:59 pm |
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| Venator...I understand why you're busting chops for showing ID, but...it was my understanding that is how it works in Vt. You can carry open or cc'd, as long as you are a legal US citizen and not carrying with the intention of commiting a crime. There are no permits. But LEO's can ask for ID to ensure that you are indeed a legal US citizen and not a wanted person? Please, correct me if i am wrong.
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ixtow
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 29th, 2009 11:56 pm |
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unarmed in westchester wrote: Venator...I understand why you're busting chops for showing ID, but...it was my understanding that is how it works in Vt. You can carry open or cc'd, as long as you are a legal US citizen and not carrying with the intention of commiting a crime. There are no permits. But LEO's can ask for ID to ensure that you are indeed a legal US citizen and not a wanted person? Please, correct me if i am wrong.
They would have to have probable cause to conduct a search or seizure of your person or property for any of those 'checks.' Without probable cause, it's nothing more than 'papers please.'
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NavyLT
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 30th, 2009 01:44 am |
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unarmed in westchester wrote: Venator...I understand why you're busting chops for showing ID, but...it was my understanding that is how it works in Vt. You can carry open or cc'd, as long as you are a legal US citizen and not carrying with the intention of commiting a crime. There are no permits. But LEO's can ask for ID to ensure that you are indeed a legal US citizen and not a wanted person? Please, correct me if i am wrong.
Did she have any reason to think that you were prohibited? That's the simple answer to your question. If the answer is, "No she did not have any reason to think I am prohibited" then it is against the 4th amendment for her to demand to see ID.
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ixtow
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 30th, 2009 01:56 am |
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NavyLT wrote: unarmed in westchester wrote: Venator...I understand why you're busting chops for showing ID, but...it was my understanding that is how it works in Vt. You can carry open or cc'd, as long as you are a legal US citizen and not carrying with the intention of commiting a crime. There are no permits. But LEO's can ask for ID to ensure that you are indeed a legal US citizen and not a wanted person? Please, correct me if i am wrong.
Did she have any reason to think that you were prohibited? That's the simple answer to your question. If the answer is, "No she did not have any reason to think I am prohibited" then it is against the 4th amendment for her to demand to see ID.
I think the key difference here is that ID was not demanded. It was requested. The OP chose to show ID. And while I am pretty hardcore about never doing that... I think that in this circumstance it was more helpful to choose such than not to.
Do we know what might have happened if he refused? No, we don't. But from the OP's description of the Officer's Demeanor and choice of words, I feel comfortable saying that this Officer would probably not have crossed the line. Quite probably she may have become less chatty, but oh well. And I'm about that last person who would ever give an Officer credit... I'm not a mind reader, it's just speculation. But it is quite difficult to about-face with that particular choice of words. I'm doubting that 'running your ID' was something she even wanted to do. Just wanted to make a show for the onlooking goons, and create an 'affirmative' with dispatch. It's all about office politics, no?
Consider the image of the department which refuses? I don't think Brass has the interest or guts to tell 'the concerned public' that there is no reason to bother with this... It suits their disarmament/we are superman agenda too... Maybe she just wanted to keep her job?
Consider that even those officers that respect 'us' are probably being watched, and have to make it look like they are with the higher-up's program if they don't want to be overlooked for the next promotion, etc... Anti's are NEVER above abusing their position and inflicting prejudice upon anyone they can. If I were such a responding officer, being very much in support of OC, I'd still say "Crap, not this... How do I get through this and still look good in the eyes of my freedom-hating boss..." I'd probably want to 'run an ID' just to show that I was out here being the good little JBT my boss expected....... What about you?
Last edited on Thu Jul 30th, 2009 02:01 am by ixtow
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