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glockrocker
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 28th, 2008 03:52 pm |
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I was open carrying on Church Street in Burlington a few days ago. Wasn't really buying anything big, just walking around, killing time, etc. I decided to stop at the kettle corn place that's down towards Borders. Those of you from the area know that it lives up to its "a-maize-ing" name. As I was paying I noticed a female police officer walking towards me, and concerned looking couple not too far away. I thought the worst, but was pleasantly surprised.
This woman comes up, and introduces herself as Officer Berti. She says that she received a complaint about me open carrying. I'm about to go on the defensive, explaining the laws, etc, when she says: "I'm sorry to trouble you over nothing, but since I have a complaint I just need to make sure everything's on the up and up." I'm relieved but not quite sure what to think, so I asked "What that would entail?" She says "well, you don't have to do anything, but you'd be doing me a favor if I could see some ID." I'm opposed to presenting ID to LEOs, but with this level of politeness and professionalism I felt no need to be hostile. She takes a few minutes to run it, then hands it back to me and says "I'm sure you knew that was going to come back clean." I said "yeah, if I was going to carry illegally I would conceal." She laughed and we continued to chat for a bit.
Since the concerned couple was still staring, probably bewildered that I wasn't in handcuffs yet, I asked if they were the ones who complained. She replied "If they are they aren't being too subtle!" I guess she can't/didn't want to share. We continued to chat about guns for a bit, then we shook hands and went out separate ways.
Rock on Vermont! 
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Liko81
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Posted: Mon Jul 28th, 2008 04:07 pm |
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glockrocker wrote: I was open carrying on Church Street in Burlington a few days ago. Wasn't really buying anything big, just walking around, killing time, etc. I decided to stop at the kettle corn place that's down towards Borders. Those of you from the area know that it lives up to its "a-maize-ing" name. As I was paying I noticed a female police officer walking towards me, and concerned looking couple not too far away. I thought the worst, but was pleasantly surprised.
This woman comes up, and introduces herself as Officer Berti. She says that she received a complaint about me open carrying. I'm about to go on the defensive, explaining the laws, etc, when she says: "I'm sorry to trouble you over nothing, but since I have a complaint I just need to make sure everything's on the up and up." I'm relieved but not quite sure what to think, so I asked "What that would entail?" She says "well, you don't have to do anything, but you'd be doing me a favor if I could see some ID." I'm opposed to presenting ID to LEOs, but with this level of politeness and professionalism I felt no need to be hostile. She takes a few minutes to run it, then hands it back to me and says "I'm sure you knew that was going to come back clean." I said "yeah, if I was going to carry illegally I would conceal." She laughed and we continued to chat for a bit.
Since the concerned couple was still staring, probably bewildered that I wasn't in handcuffs yet, I asked if they were the ones who complained. She replied "If they are they aren't being too subtle!" I guess she can't/didn't want to share. We continued to chat about guns for a bit, then we shook hands and went out separate ways.
Rock on Vermont!
+. I'm sure SOMEONE here will tell you you shouldn't have handed over ID, since of course that's giving in, but faced with a chance to prove that you are 100%, no question LAC in front of two antis, I would agree with you that it wasn't time to play lawyer.
Maybe that's something you could argue for (it's argued against most of the time); when engaged in an LEO encounter, friendly or otherwise, and antis are probably watching, that is probably NOT a good time to play lawyer. Think what they'll think, whether you're arrested or not:
* Arrested - "Gee, that didn't get him very far, did it? That's cause OC is wrong just like I said it was when I called 911".
* Not Arrested - "A mere technicality; he weaseled his way out of it that time, but he can't dodge forever".
If, however, you don't do anything that could be perceived as antagonizing or lawyering (like asserting a point of law when an officer claims otherwise), and the officer does what he does and lets you go, that flies in the face of everything the anti expected. Us OCers are all right-wing, wannabe judge/jury/executioner types, right? Then why aren't we going to jail forever? Why didn't the cop remove the evil bad man from the streets? Why, in fact, was the encounter even friendly? Look, the OCer's looking at us and saying something, and the officer's laughing cordially! What's wrong with this picture?"
Well, it's the anti's perception of what SHOULD happen that's wrong. A friendly LEO encounter puts that into glaring perspective, and I think that's what we should aim for when an encounter happens; keep it friendly, even if that means being cooperative when asked to do something you don't have to, until it's clear that the LEO is not going to be friendly regardless of effort on your part. Some here advocate treating every encounter as if you're about to be or have been arrested, and while very effective, I think a friendly encounter is always preferable to an immediate "shields-up approach".
Last edited on Mon Jul 28th, 2008 04:28 pm by Liko81
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RedKnightt
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 28th, 2008 05:10 pm |
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glockrocker wrote: <snipped> She says "well, you don't have to do anything, but you'd be doing me a favor if I could see some ID." I'm opposed to presenting ID to LEOs, but with this level of politeness and professionalism I felt no need to be hostile.
I think this was a very good LEO encounter. It may be one day that LEOs and dispatchers just start telling those who call in that OC is legal, but it's not prevalent yet. I really liked the part I quoted where she knew that you weren't required to present ID. You really were doing her the favor, and she seemed to realize that. Given the OC stories I've seen out of Vermont and New Hampshire, the couple was probably from Mass or NY. 
--RedKnightt--
Zombie Squad has it right: “We hold fast to the belief that if you are prepared for a scenario where the walking corpses of your family and neighbors are trying to eat you alive, you will be prepared for almost anything.”
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S.E.WI
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 28th, 2008 09:32 pm |
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glockrocker wrote: I was open carrying on Church Street in Burlington a few days ago. Wasn't really buying anything big, just walking around, killing time, etc. I decided to stop at the kettle corn place that's down towards Borders. Those of you from the area know that it lives up to its "a-maize-ing" name. As I was paying I noticed a female police officer walking towards me, and concerned looking couple not too far away. I thought the worst, but was pleasantly surprised.
This woman comes up, and introduces herself as Officer Berti. She says that she received a complaint about me open carrying. I'm about to go on the defensive, explaining the laws, etc, when she says: "I'm sorry to trouble you over nothing, but since I have a complaint I just need to make sure everything's on the up and up." I'm relieved but not quite sure what to think, so I asked "What that would entail?" She says "well, you don't have to do anything, but you'd be doing me a favor if I could see some ID." I'm opposed to presenting ID to LEOs, but with this level of politeness and professionalism I felt no need to be hostile. She takes a few minutes to run it, then hands it back to me and says "I'm sure you knew that was going to come back clean." I said "yeah, if I was going to carry illegally I would conceal." She laughed and we continued to chat for a bit.
Since the concerned couple was still staring, probably bewildered that I wasn't in handcuffs yet, I asked if they were the ones who complained. She replied "If they are they aren't being too subtle!" I guess she can't/didn't want to share. We continued to chat about guns for a bit, then we shook hands and went out separate ways.
Rock on Vermont!
Did you tell us everything.....like did you get her phone number?
Just kidding but I would do the same thing you did under the circumstances. This type of encounter will work well for OC and how we are perceived.
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glockrocker
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jul 29th, 2008 12:38 am |
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I was a little worried you guys would be on me for giving ID, glad to see that isn't the case. As you guys said, I think a friendly encounter is always better.
S.E. WI,
She was pretty cute, and I'm mildly charming, but alas, no phone number .
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asforme
Activist Member
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Posted: Tue Jul 29th, 2008 12:53 am |
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You needed to ask for a business card so you could compliment her superior on her professionalism... and get her number
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UTOC-45-44
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Posted: Tue Jul 29th, 2008 01:54 am |
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glockrocker wrote: I was open carrying on Church Street in Burlington a few days ago. Wasn't really buying anything big, just walking around, killing time, etc. I decided to stop at the kettle corn place that's down towards Borders. Those of you from the area know that it lives up to its "a-maize-ing" name. As I was paying I noticed a female police officer walking towards me, and concerned looking couple not too far away. I thought the worst, but was pleasantly surprised.
This woman comes up, and introduces herself as Officer Berti. She says that she received a complaint about me open carrying. I'm about to go on the defensive, explaining the laws, etc, when she says: "I'm sorry to trouble you over nothing, but since I have a complaint I just need to make sure everything's on the up and up." I'm relieved but not quite sure what to think, so I asked "What that would entail?" She says "well, you don't have to do anything, but you'd be doing me a favor if I could see some ID." I'm opposed to presenting ID to LEOs, but with this level of politeness and professionalism I felt no need to be hostile. She takes a few minutes to run it, then hands it back to me and says "I'm sure you knew that was going to come back clean." I said "yeah, if I was going to carry illegally I would conceal." She laughed and we continued to chat for a bit.
Since the concerned couple was still staring, probably bewildered that I wasn't in handcuffs yet, I asked if they were the ones who complained. She replied "If they are they aren't being too subtle!" I guess she can't/didn't want to share. We continued to chat about guns for a bit, then we shook hands and went out separate ways.
Rock on Vermont!
I said "yeah, if I was going to carry illegally I would conceal."
But I thought that it's LEGAL to CCW as well in Vermont ???
Correct me if I am wrong, Please.
Vermont don't have Permit for CCWing, as far as I am aware of
TJ
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PavePusher
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Posted: Tue Jul 29th, 2008 01:56 am |
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glockrocker wrote: I was open carrying on Church Street in Burlington a few days ago. Wasn't really buying anything big, just walking around, killing time, etc. I decided to stop at the kettle corn place that's down towards Borders. Those of you from the area know that it lives up to its "a-maize-ing" name. As I was paying I noticed a female police officer walking towards me, and concerned looking couple not too far away. I thought the worst, but was pleasantly surprised.
This woman comes up, and introduces herself as Officer Berti. She says that she received a complaint about me open carrying. I'm about to go on the defensive, explaining the laws, etc, when she says: "I'm sorry to trouble you over nothing, but since I have a complaint I just need to make sure everything's on the up and up." I'm relieved but not quite sure what to think, so I asked "What that would entail?" She says "well, you don't have to do anything, but you'd be doing me a favor if I could see some ID." I'm opposed to presenting ID to LEOs, but with this level of politeness and professionalism I felt no need to be hostile. She takes a few minutes to run it, then hands it back to me and says "I'm sure you knew that was going to come back clean." I said "yeah, if I was going to carry illegally I would conceal." She laughed and we continued to chat for a bit.
Since the concerned couple was still staring, probably bewildered that I wasn't in handcuffs yet, I asked if they were the ones who complained. She replied "If they are they aren't being too subtle!" I guess she can't/didn't want to share. We continued to chat about guns for a bit, then we shook hands and went out separate ways.
Rock on Vermont!
Actually, since CC is legal in VT as well, you couldn't get in trouble if you tried! 
Well, unless you're a felon of course... 
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UTOC-45-44
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Posted: Tue Jul 29th, 2008 01:59 am |
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PavePusher wrote: glockrocker wrote: I was open carrying on Church Street in Burlington a few days ago. Wasn't really buying anything big, just walking around, killing time, etc. I decided to stop at the kettle corn place that's down towards Borders. Those of you from the area know that it lives up to its "a-maize-ing" name. As I was paying I noticed a female police officer walking towards me, and concerned looking couple not too far away. I thought the worst, but was pleasantly surprised.
This woman comes up, and introduces herself as Officer Berti. She says that she received a complaint about me open carrying. I'm about to go on the defensive, explaining the laws, etc, when she says: "I'm sorry to trouble you over nothing, but since I have a complaint I just need to make sure everything's on the up and up." I'm relieved but not quite sure what to think, so I asked "What that would entail?" She says "well, you don't have to do anything, but you'd be doing me a favor if I could see some ID." I'm opposed to presenting ID to LEOs, but with this level of politeness and professionalism I felt no need to be hostile. She takes a few minutes to run it, then hands it back to me and says "I'm sure you knew that was going to come back clean." I said "yeah, if I was going to carry illegally I would conceal." She laughed and we continued to chat for a bit.
Since the concerned couple was still staring, probably bewildered that I wasn't in handcuffs yet, I asked if they were the ones who complained. She replied "If they are they aren't being too subtle!" I guess she can't/didn't want to share. We continued to chat about guns for a bit, then we shook hands and went out separate ways.
Rock on Vermont!
Actually, since CC is legal in VT as well, you couldn't get in trouble if you tried!
Well, unless you're a felon of course...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry_in_the_United_States
"Two states, Vermont[5] and Alaska,[6] allow a non-felon, aged 16 or 21 respectively, to carry without requiring a permit as a fundamental right. Alaskan residents may optionally obtain a permit granting reciprocal carry privileges in certain other states, or to be exempted from the NICS background check. Vermont extends the right to carry without requiring a permit to non-residents as well as to residents, but issues no permits to residents that could function to allow reciprocal concealed carry rights for Vermont residents while in other states"
Last edited on Tue Jul 29th, 2008 02:00 am by UTOC-45-44
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glockrocker
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jul 29th, 2008 02:09 am |
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| You guys are absolutely right about not needing a permit. I meant if it was illegal for me to carry at all (felon, etc.), I would conceal.
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UTOC-45-44
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Posted: Tue Jul 29th, 2008 02:21 am |
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glockrocker wrote: You guys are absolutely right about not needing a permit. I meant if it was illegal for me to carry at all (felon, etc.), I would conceal.
Oh, I see what you mean.
TJ
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CrossBow33
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jul 29th, 2008 09:50 pm |
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| The encounter was particularly noteworthy because Church Street is, in fact, a pedestrian mall, known for an "eclectic" clientele. And as friendly as Vermont is to RKBA, Burlington, home to U of VT and several other colleges as well as a growing population of neer do wells from adjoining states, is not.
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deepdiver
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Posted: Wed Jul 30th, 2008 04:50 am |
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+1 for the handling of the encounter on both sides. I too would have offered ID in that situation. She had already acknowledged your rights and the law that you did not have to anything. I would have no objection to be on the OCer end of such a reasonable encounter.
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vermonter
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Posted: Wed Jul 30th, 2008 09:15 am |
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Vermont is one of the states where an officer has the right to ask for ID whn answering a complaint. They are only trying to determine that you are not a felon in possesion of a firearm (our form of criminal control). Give em the ID if you are questioned while OC, and if you are clean you're on your way. Any time I am stopped I inform that I am carrying concealed. It is never an issue. They run me and I'm on my way. I am sure some of you in Wyoming cringe, but remember here in Burlington we are being overrun with hard core gang bangers from NYC, MA and Peoples Republic of NJ. This only applies to Burlington. I have never had an issue anywhere else in VT with any PD. Burlington PD is a bunch of good guys and gals who do not harass unduely compared to other states. Give em some respect and you will get the same in return.
I have an update about Church Street. The bricked part is public, but entering any business while OC can get you trespassed from all. I got a warning form for a headlight out. The same form is also for trespass warnings. It lists every business and all bars. If you are trespassed from one you are trespassed from ALL! Keep OC out of all business on Church St includiing Burlington Mall and you will be saved a trespass that could last up to a year.
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centercity
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 30th, 2008 09:37 pm |
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Vermont is one of the states where an officer has the right to ask for ID whn answering a complaint.
Do you have a cite for this? It's not that I don't believe you. It's just that I've been trying to figure that out for a while, and would be interested to see the wording. Thanks.
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centercity
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 30th, 2008 09:39 pm |
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| I'm glad to hear you had a good experience with the Burlington Police Department. I've been meaning to ask them about their training and policies regarding citizens carrying weapons, but haven't gotten around to it. It sounds like they are doing just fine.
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cato
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Posted: Wed Jul 30th, 2008 09:56 pm |
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what did she look like and what was she carrying 
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buketdude
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Posted: Thu Jul 31st, 2008 02:43 am |
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I love VT...i will be there again this weekend..open carrying in the Rutland area!!...i love touring the breweries and camping/hiking...great place..great people..
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Alwayspacking
Activist Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 31st, 2008 11:25 am |
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| now thats what I'm talking about... she did not take you to be a criminal just because you had a gun. if she happen to be read this post, i want to say thank you for the way you responded to this 911 call.
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vermonter
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Posted: Mon Aug 4th, 2008 08:17 am |
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Center city,
I will try to scan in the back of a "traffic violation warning" that also contains the trespass warning. You will find it most interesting. I certainly don't want to be trespassed from all the business on Church St, so I just CCW. As stated in another post by the chief of security OC at the U Mall WILL get you a trespass notice.
Read this: http://www.police.ci.burlington.vt.us/News%20Releases%20&%20Docs/Tag%20Game%20Press%20Release%204-4-2008.pdf
Notice it states "stores and business" not the bricked part, but I don't want to push my luck. If officer LaBarge or Clark sees you OC you will probably get a rash of $%^#&^! I know Officer Berti and she is real professional and nice.
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