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skispcs
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Sep 11th, 2008 07:47 pm |
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I was reading that South Carolina was being dropped from Virginia's Reciprocity because SC did not have 24/7 Validation of CHP Permits.
Does Virginia have 24/7 Validation?
I believe that a Virginia LEO could look you up and see this in their computer system, but what if I am traveling in North Carolina and get pulled.
How would the NC LEO verify my permit if needed?
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Gentleman Ranker
Opt-Out Member
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Posted: Thu Sep 11th, 2008 08:16 pm |
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And, purely rhetorically, if the permit needs to be "validated", why carry the little plastic-encased card in the first place?
I'm sure there are good answers, but it does strike me a bit funny.
regards,
GR
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skispcs
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Sep 11th, 2008 09:29 pm |
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Yes, that is partially what I was thinking.
My CHP looks like it was printed out on plain cardstock with an inkjet printer.
I had to take it to Kinko's to laminate it myself.
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Armed
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Sep 12th, 2008 03:18 am |
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I do not understand why... as an OPTION... we could not have a code listed on our driver's license as an endorsement. Our permits are linked to our DMV records anyway... and it could be relatively sublte, like a 'K' or 'W', or something.
Or as Gentleman said above - why even bother carrying anything if they are going to call it in and check anyway....
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ProShooter
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Sep 12th, 2008 03:26 am |
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Armed wrote: I do not understand why... as an OPTION... we could not have a code listed on our driver's license as an endorsement. Our permits are linked to our DMV records anyway... and it could be relatively sublte, like a 'K' or 'W', or something.
That's an excellent idea !
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Grapeshot
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Fri Sep 12th, 2008 03:46 am |
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Armed wrote: Our permits are linked to our DMV records anyway...
Or as Gentleman said above - why even bother carrying anything if they are going to call it in and check anyway....
Common misconception, CHPs are not linked to driver's license or tags.
A records check is run on the IDd driver and that shows you have a CHP.
As to why check it out - you could be a felon, wants & warrents, permit suspended etc.
Solution is simple - don't violate any traffic laws. 
Yata hey
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fairfax1
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Sep 12th, 2008 06:12 am |
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Gentleman Ranker wrote: And, purely rhetorically, if the permit needs to be "validated", why carry the little plastic-encased card in the first place?
And if we have to carry the card in the first place, can they at least make it out of plastic and look somewhat official? Mine is just a cheap white tear off business card with the state seal upside down and on the wrong side of the card. My college ID looks better and is more secure.
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Armed
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Sep 12th, 2008 12:15 pm |
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Grapeshot wrote: Armed wrote: Our permits are linked to our DMV records anyway...
Common misconception, CHPs are not linked to driver's license or tags.
I wrote to VCDL to see if they would support a legislative change that would include a CHP endorsement to our drivers license as an option of the permit holder.
I still think that makes a lot more sense than a flimsy piece of scrap paper.
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Mike
Super Moderator
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Posted: Fri Sep 12th, 2008 12:43 pm |
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What's so weird about this 24/7 verification protocol is that the law does not require that the verification actually work. The permit itself is prima facie evidence of your privilege to conceal, and a non-verification in VCIN (Virginia Criminal Information System) does not mean anything - my first VA CHP was never entered into VCIN.
What counts is the permit, and an officer with suspicion that the permit is not valid must check the court record or the VSP record in the case of VSP issued CHPs.
Same with the other states - so what if the permit does not come back as "verified"?
That's why we should srop this 24/7 verification protocol from 18.2-308 entirely - it just gets in the way of reciprocity agreements.
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VAopencarry
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Sep 12th, 2008 12:53 pm |
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The latest VCDL Alert say the problem with SC is getting worked out. It turns out they do have 24/7.
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Grapeshot
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Fri Sep 12th, 2008 01:07 pm |
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Armed wrote: Grapeshot wrote: Armed wrote: Our permits are linked to our DMV records anyway...
Common misconception, CHPs are not linked to driver's license or tags
I wrote to VCDL to see if they would support a legislative change that would include a CHP endorsement to our drivers license as an option of the permit holder.
I still think that makes a lot more sense than a flimsy piece of scrap paper.
And how would this work to satisfy the requirement that the permit and an approved photo ID be given upon together when required? This would not be up to DMV but would require a change to the Code of Virginia.
Not likely either as few would desire a "subtle" notification of legal carry such as a small innocent code on your drivers license in place of an actual hard copy permit. I think to suggest both, our legislators would see this as unnecessarily duplicity.
Then you have the problem with traveling to other states and the reciprocity thing..... aah officer, see that little "x" on my license - that means I have a CHP.
I agree that the physical permit itself should be more official looking in its presentation, less tacky
Ever tried to use your CHP as a second form of identification? I have and will continue to do so. It has everything reasonably required: name, address, your description and issued by a government entity, even the state seal. Only once or twice has it been accepted - normally refused (it's not on their list) and a vastly inferior form - a credit card with "check ID instead of a signature - is accepted. Go figure.
Yata hey
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Mike
Super Moderator
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Posted: Fri Sep 12th, 2008 01:18 pm |
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Grapeshot wrote: a credit card with "check ID instead of a signature - is accepted. Go figure.
Very wrong - all credit card companies require their cards to be signed. No credit card authorizes merchants to demand ID. MasterCard and VISA strictly forbid merchants form demanding ID to use a signed credit card. Report merchants who violate this policy at http://www.mastercard.com/us/personal/en/contactus/merchantviolations.html
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Grapeshot
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Fri Sep 12th, 2008 01:28 pm |
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Mike wrote: Grapeshot wrote: a credit card with "check ID instead of a signature - is accepted. Go figure.
Very wrong - all credit card companies require their cards to be signed. No credit card authorizes merchants to demand ID. MasterCard and VISA strictly forbid merchants form demanding ID to use a signed credit card. Report merchants who violate this policy at http://www.mastercard.com/us/personal/en/contactus/merchantviolations.html
I understand their rules. I couldn't tell you the last time a merchant checked to see if the card was signed. Nobodies problem but my own - and it isn't a problem. 
That wasn't really the point.
Yata hey
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vrwmiller
Regular Member
| Joined: | Fri Feb 23rd, 2007 |
| Location: | Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 1058 |
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Offline
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Posted: Fri Sep 12th, 2008 02:12 pm |
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Armed wrote:
I wrote to VCDL to see if they would support a legislative change that would include a CHP endorsement to our drivers license as an option of the permit holder.
I still think that makes a lot more sense than a flimsy piece of scrap paper.
I prefer a legislative change the removes the CHP program altogether. The 2A recognizes a natural right to K&B arms. The CHP program is a civil law that encroaches upon the natural right.
I, personally, wouldn't support a change to include an additional class on a driver's license. I am a lawfully carrying citizen. When I am required to present my identification for one reason or another, I don't need that individual/organization to know, without asking, what my status is with regards to having a CHP, much less whether or not I have a firearm in my possession.
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Grapeshot
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Fri Sep 12th, 2008 02:44 pm |
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If notifying a LEO that you are carrying is not a requirement, then would not an identifying mark on your drivers license preclude that option at a traffic stop.
Do not chime in and tell me that would be good for officer safety - its not the permit holder that causes the problems.
Best of all worlds would be Alaska Carry with permits only for reciprocity purposes.
I suspect that I will win the lottery twice before that happens.
Yata hey
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hsmith
Regular Member
| Joined: | Thu Mar 29th, 2007 |
| Location: | Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 1674 |
| Status: |
Offline
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Posted: Fri Sep 12th, 2008 05:25 pm |
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ProShooter wrote: Armed wrote: I do not understand why... as an OPTION... we could not have a code listed on our driver's license as an endorsement. Our permits are linked to our DMV records anyway... and it could be relatively sublte, like a 'K' or 'W', or something.
That's an excellent idea !
I disagree 1000000.1%, it is a terrible idea. We shouldn't even need a license to carry as is. I don't want to be driving through MD and some LEO pull me over and harass me because he sees I have a "Code" on my DL stating I have a CHP.
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Cavsgt
Regular Member
| Joined: | Mon Dec 10th, 2007 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 1 |
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Offline
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Posted: Fri Sep 12th, 2008 06:01 pm |
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I am disabled, so I can not drive. I do nor have a DL. I DO HAVE A CHP
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Agent19
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Sep 12th, 2008 06:14 pm |
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Grapeshot wrote: Best of all worlds would be Alaska Carry with permits only for reciprocity purposes.
I suspect that I will win the lottery twice before that happens.
Yata hey
The no permit required is great but there are still some issues of .
Alaska Statute 11.61.220 allows anyone 21 or older, who may legally carry a firearm to also carry it concealed without having to obtain a special permit. The possession of a firearm at courthouses, school yards, bars and domestic violence shelters will continue to be prohibited. Alaskans may obtain a concealed carry permit if they want reciprocity with other states.
A person 21 or older may be charged with carrying a concealed deadly weapon under AS 11.61.220 if s/he
- fails to immediately inform a peace officer that s/he is carrying a concealed handgun
- fails to allow the officer to secure the weapon or fails to secure the weapon at the direction of the peace officer, or
- carries the weapon concealed within another person's residence, unless s/he has first obtained the express permission of an adult residing there, whether or not the person has a concealed handgun permit.
Vermonts
http://www.leg.state.vt.us/statutes/fullchapter.cfm?Title=13&Chapter=085Last edited on Fri Sep 12th, 2008 06:28 pm by Agent19
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Grapeshot
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Fri Sep 12th, 2008 07:04 pm |
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Agent19 wrote: Grapeshot wrote: Best of all worlds would be Alaska Carry with permits only for reciprocity purposes.
I suspect that I will win the lottery twice before that happens.
Yata hey
The no permit required is great but there are still some issues of.
Alaska Statute 11.61.220 allows anyone 21 or older, who may legally carry a firearm to also carry it concealed without having to obtain a special permit. The possession of a firearm at courthouses, school yards, bars and domestic violence shelters will continue to be prohibited. Alaskans may obtain a concealed carry permit if they want reciprocity with other states.
A person 21 or older may be charged with carrying a concealed deadly weapon under AS 11.61.220 if s/he
- fails to immediately inform a peace officer that s/he is carrying a concealed handgun
- fails to allow the officer to secure the weapon or fails to secure the weapon at the direction of the peace officer, or
- carries the weapon concealed within another person's residence, unless s/he has first obtained the express permission of an adult residing there, whether or not the person has a concealed handgun permit.
Vermonts
http://www.leg.state.vt.us/statutes/fullchapter.cfm?Title=13&Chapter=085 Open mouth, place foot firmly in said opening. Mmmfr. Let this be a leason that the grass is not always greener elsewhere and to not accept anybody else's word for anything.
Appreciate the links. There are definitely some things that I do not like about Alaska's weapons laws, in fact there are some areas in which I prefer Virginia's - I'm shocked but wiser.
Yata hey
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WVCDL
State Researcher
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Posted: Sat Sep 13th, 2008 02:09 am |
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skispcs wrote: I was reading that South Carolina was being dropped from Virginia's Reciprocity because SC did not have 24/7 Validation of CHP Permits.
Does Virginia have 24/7 Validation?
I believe that a Virginia LEO could look you up and see this in their computer system, but what if I am traveling in North Carolina and get pulled.
How would the NC LEO verify my permit if needed?
Nevada (Nev. Rev. Stat. § 202.3689(1)), Virginia (Va. Code § 18.2-308(P)), and West Virginia (W.Va. Code § 61-7-6a(d)(2)) are the only states whose reciprocity/recognition laws require a reciprocal/recognized state to have instant verification capabilities. Minnesota has made verification capabilities a part of its analysis of whether a state has equivalent licensing standards.
As Mike indicated in a post above, a license/permit card is prima facie evidence of licensure, and most states do not require more.
The whole issue of whether a person might forge a permit or carry on a revoked permit is so rare in practice that the argument that we need to maintain the 24/7 verification requirement in our reciprocity law to guard against these incidents is without merit. Every jurisdiction, regardless of whether it has a centralized license/permit database, can examine its records and ascertain within no more than a few days whether a purported license or permit is valid. Every law-enforcement officer can run an instant background check on a person to determine whether that person is prohibited by law from possessing firearms and arrest a prohibited possessor regardless of whether that person claims to have a CHP (or equivalent).
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