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trsystem
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 03:11 pm |
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I know that Virginia state law trumps local government laws, however I need some clarification on something.
Gun shows are most often held on public property, at which state preemption applies. However, at every gun show I've ever been to, most recently the one at the Hampton Coluseum, they make all us gun carriers unload our weapons and give them the ammo until we leave....
Can they do this? Under what legal authority do they have the right to make me disable my firearm by unloading the ammo and locking the slide with a plastic tie? Is this even legal? Is this a state law?
Last edited on Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 03:12 pm by trsystem
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skispcs
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 03:55 pm |
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I believe that it has been discussed before but it boils down to an insurance issue.
The show promoter must have insurance and the insurance carrier may require that all weapons be unloaded.
You could probably push the issue since it is on public property but then the promoter may not be able to get insurance or it would be to expensive to make money on the show. In either case the end result is no gun show.
So you can choose to unload and go to the show or force the promoter to cancel the show. What do you think would be the best thing to do.
Regardless have you been to any of the shows recently and observed the way some of the idiots handle the unloaded weapons.
Just keep a spare mag in your back pocket.
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Dispatcher
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 06:03 pm |
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skispcs wrote: I believe that it has been discussed before but it boils down to an insurance issue.
The show promoter must have insurance and the insurance carrier may require that all weapons be unloaded.
You could probably push the issue since it is on public property but then the promoter may not be able to get insurance or it would be to expensive to make money on the show. In either case the end result is no gun show.
So you can choose to unload and go to the show or force the promoter to cancel the show. What do you think would be the best thing to do.
Regardless have you been to any of the shows recently and observed the way some of the idiots handle the unloaded weapons.
Just keep a spare mag in your back pocket.
Understandably it is an insurance issue. However, insurance carriers may not override state law and may not dictate what the policies will be regarding firearms.
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buster81
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 06:11 pm |
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| I think the answer from the insurance company would that we may not be able to override state law, but we can always just not issue insurance.
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darthmord
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 06:23 pm |
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buster81 wrote: I think the answer from the insurance company would that we may not be able to override state law, but we can always just not issue insurance.
Therein lies the rub. A contract between two private entities may not necessarily follow all the same rules / laws the Government is required to follow.
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ProShooter
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 06:26 pm |
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I think that there's another issue to be considered - if the pre-emption issue is pushed, the gun show may go away relative to the insurance issue.
I imagine that it would be like living in NY or NJ and saying "gee, I wish that I could attend a gun show...". Its the infamous "winning the battle but losing the war" idea. I lived in NY and NJ. I know what gun oppression is like. I like living here and being able to attend gun shows. Should we be allowed to carry? Yeah, probably...but that's not a fight that I envision anyone fighting.
Yes, it could happen here.
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SouthernBoy
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 09:54 pm |
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I don't believe I've ever been to a gun show on public property. As far as I know, all of the venues have been private property affairs and, of course, it is then left up to the owner whether or not he wishes to allow loaded firearms onto and into his property.
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kaiheitai17
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 10:21 pm |
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SouthernBoy wrote: I don't believe I've ever been to a gun show on public property. As far as I know, all of the venues have been private property affairs and, of course, it is then left up to the owner whether or not he wishes to allow loaded firearms onto and into his property.
Fredericksburg convention center, Hampton coliseum, Prince William county fairgrounds (I think), used to go the shows they had in Leesburg at the National Guard armory there, not sure if the Richmond State Fairgrounds are State owned.
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peter nap
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 02:26 am |
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kaiheitai17 wrote: SouthernBoy wrote: I don't believe I've ever been to a gun show on public property. As far as I know, all of the venues have been private property affairs and, of course, it is then left up to the owner whether or not he wishes to allow loaded firearms onto and into his property.
Fredericksburg convention center, Hampton coliseum, Prince William county fairgrounds (I think), used to go the shows they had in Leesburg at the National Guard armory there, not sure if the Richmond State Fairgrounds are State owned.
State Fairgrounds are private but in order to get the permit Henrico has a ton of requirements. I be willing to bet the permit is tied to unloaded guns in one way or the other.
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TFred
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 03:08 am |
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kaiheitai17 wrote: SouthernBoy wrote: I don't believe I've ever been to a gun show on public property. As far as I know, all of the venues have been private property affairs and, of course, it is then left up to the owner whether or not he wishes to allow loaded firearms onto and into his property.
Fredericksburg convention center, Hampton coliseum, Prince William county fairgrounds (I think), used to go the shows they had in Leesburg at the National Guard armory there, not sure if the Richmond State Fairgrounds are State owned.
Just a slight note. I don't believe the Fredericksburg Expo Center is publicly owned.
The public tax record found here indicates that the owner of the property is "CVA Expo Center LLC". According to a document found on the local newspaper web site, the Performance Agreement executed between the Expo Center and the City of Fredericksburg indicates that "CVA" owns the land, and leases it to "Fredericksburg Expo Center LLC", and there are certain performance requirements spelled out for several years.
According to the performance agreement, documents related to the performance measurements are to be sent to CVA, in care of The Silver Companies, the head honcho local land baron around these parts.
So... it looks like of that list, the Fredericksburg Expo Center is indeed privately owned.
TFred
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spitfyr
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 04:24 pm |
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For the Richmond shows neither the state fairgrounds aka Richmond Raceway Complex nor the Showplace are public property as far as I know.
Agreed it is probably an insurance issue and also perhaps one with the site lease terms. Because as we know the owners of private property can make up pretty much any rules they want.
When carrying a full mag in your back pocket also dont forget something to quickly and easily cut that big orange zip tie with. 
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Thundar
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 04:33 pm |
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Put a loaded mag and nail clippers in your pocket before you get to the gun show entrance. Your gun will be zip tied and your mag confirmed empty when you enter the gun show. Go to a bathroom stall after entry. While in the stall cut off the zip tie with the nail clippers and insert the mag from your pocket.
Not rocket science.
Last edited on Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 04:43 pm by Thundar
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GWRedDragon
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 09:25 pm |
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Thundar wrote: Put a loaded mag and nail clippers in your pocket before you get to the gun show entrance. Your gun will be zip tied and your mag confirmed empty when you enter the gun show. Go to a bathroom stall after entry. While in the stall cut off the zip tie with the nail clippers and insert the mag from your pocket.
Not rocket science.
I bet someone would hear it if you chambered a round 
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ProShooter
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 10:00 pm |
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GWRedDragon wrote: Thundar wrote: Put a loaded mag and nail clippers in your pocket before you get to the gun show entrance. Your gun will be zip tied and your mag confirmed empty when you enter the gun show. Go to a bathroom stall after entry. While in the stall cut off the zip tie with the nail clippers and insert the mag from your pocket.
Not rocket science.
I bet someone would hear it if you chambered a round
Imagine an AD/ND......surest way to have an end to the gun shows.
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cbackous
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 11:05 pm |
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spitfyr wrote: For the Richmond shows neither the state fairgrounds aka Richmond Raceway Complex nor the Showplace are public property as far as I know.
Agreed it is probably an insurance issue and also perhaps one with the site lease terms. Because as we know the owners of private property can make up pretty much any rules they want.
When carrying a full mag in your back pocket also dont forget something to quickly and easily cut that big orange zip tie with.
This was part of the arguement in Richmond for the convention. If its public property, the leasee should not be able to infringe on our rights as it is still owned by the city.
As many have said above, this is very much a "win the battle, lose the war" situation since the issue lies with the insurance company.
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Neplusultra
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 11:51 pm |
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cbackous wrote: spitfyr wrote: For the Richmond shows neither the state fairgrounds aka Richmond Raceway Complex nor the Showplace are public property as far as I know.
Agreed it is probably an insurance issue and also perhaps one with the site lease terms. Because as we know the owners of private property can make up pretty much any rules they want.
When carrying a full mag in your back pocket also dont forget something to quickly and easily cut that big orange zip tie with.
This was part of the arguement in Richmond for the convention. If its public property, the leasee should not be able to infringe on our rights as it is still owned by the city.
As many have said above, this is very much a "win the battle, lose the war" situation since the issue lies with the insurance company.
The logic seems good except why isn't this always the case for every event??? They all have to get insurance don't they? Now a gun show would of course have a higher percentage of gun toting rednecks but a ND is a ND.....
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Mike
Super Moderator
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Posted: Sat Jul 4th, 2009 04:07 am |
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trsystem wrote: Gun shows are most often held on public property, at which state preemption applies.
preemption applies to whom? If you answer this question, you will understand why preemption does not apply to private entities renting local real property.
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TexasNative
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Jul 4th, 2009 03:10 pm |
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Mike wrote: trsystem wrote: Gun shows are most often held on public property, at which state preemption applies.
preemption applies to whom? If you answer this question, you will understand why preemption does not apply to private entities renting local real property.
Are you saying that preemption doesn't apply to private entities renting public property, Mike? I thought we'd laid that point to rest many times in the past.
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cbackous
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Jul 4th, 2009 03:12 pm |
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There lies the rub. The Publicly owned property can be leased and the leasee can then violate our rights, and the city can look the other way.
What was discussed in the Richmond convention topic was that we should look at the lease agreement between the city and the leasee, as well the regulations the city has to follow when leasing public property. Since tax money goes to these venues the tax payers should be able to have a say in all of it.
Where Unlawful to Carry 
ยง18.2-308 (O.): Private property when prohibited by the owner of the property, or where posted as prohibited.
Depending on how you read this, it has to be prohibited by the property owner.. which is not the same as the leasee.
Last edited on Sat Jul 4th, 2009 04:06 pm by cbackous
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Tess
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Sat Jul 4th, 2009 04:16 pm |
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Thundar wrote: Put a loaded mag and nail clippers in your pocket before you get to the gun show entrance. Your gun will be zip tied and your mag confirmed empty when you enter the gun show. Go to a bathroom stall after entry. While in the stall cut off the zip tie with the nail clippers and insert the mag from your pocket.
Not rocket science.
At the Fredericksburg show, they'll sometimes ask if you have any ammunition on you.
I do not carry a loaded weapon into the shows (private property, choosing to have gun shows over no shows, etc.), but I do carry clippers and a magazine. Yes, it might take me a few extra seconds if SHTF, but it's a choice I made. (And if I have ties, and remember to do so, I tie it myself. Just so happens I'm not so good at putting the tie properly; sometimes it just slides right off.)
I imagine if someone heard you racking a slide at one of those shows, the entire place would be evacuated pretty much in a hurry.
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