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pourshot
Activist Member
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Posted: Sun Jul 1st, 2007 11:18 pm |
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Tomahawk wrote: I think we owe him more than lunch. Maybe a new hat...(just kidding)
BMWAL?
(Black Man With a Lawyer)
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Hawkflyer
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 01:52 am |
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cato wrote:
ckpolaris wrote: But how is a cop to know that?
By being paid to know the law and follow the constitution; develop reasonable suspicion to investigate/detain lawfully or probable cause to arrest/cite and knowing the elements of the crime and be able to articulate them.
One thing I learned early in my career is not to rush into a conflict/citizen contact unless exigent circumstances dictate. Minus articulable facts, observation and consensual contact is all we have legally.
+1
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DeadCenter
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 02:22 am |
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danbus wrote: I wanted to hold off my story until I got it resolved, but I must get it off my chest since I have no one else to talk to. Again this is MY side of the story.
This event occured 6/29/07 approx 4:55pm.
I was going to pick up a friend who works at a bank call center in downtown Norfolk. I decided to park my car at a meter and wait across the street since my car didn't have any AC and it was cooler outside. Of course you know I was OCing. Approximately 5pm, a security guard walked past me. I felt that he was getting a closer look. One minute later, ANOTHER guard walked past me to get a closer look. Now both of these guards didn't look me in the eyes, so I knew deep down, it was going to hit the fan.
I checked to see what one of the guards was doing, and I noticed one of them was on a cell phone looking directly at me so I kinda knew what the call was about. So I thought to myself, "I wonder how long it would take them to get here through all of this traffic?". Then I thought, "who cares?". I then heard sirens. They seemed quite far. As time went by slowly in my mind, I could hear them getting closer and closer. Next thing I know I see a squad car turn down a street and I thought, "oh there they are". Next thing happened was quite a surprise.
Ready?
A officer came around the corner with his glock 19 drawn pointing at my chest.
LEO1 - TURN AROUND AND PUT YOUR HANDS ON THE WALL!!!
Me - Um, am I under arrest?
LEO1 - PUT YOUR HANDS ON THE WALL!!!
I did what I was told, seeing that I couldn't convince him otherwise. He approached slowly and I wasn't sure who put the cuffs on. Then came the questioning.
LEO1 - What are you doing?
LEO2 - Why are you carrying a gun?
Me - I'm...
LEO1 - Why is it loaded and cocked?
LEO2 - Do you have a permit to carry that?
Me - It's a 1911, it supposed to be carried in cocked and locked and I'm open carrying it, I don't need a permit.
LEO2 - Do you realize you are standing near a bank with a gun? What are you doing?
Me - Now I know you are just doing your job, but I'm not answering your questions without a lawyer present. (at this point I was pissed).
LEO2 - Fine. (he then reaches into my pocket to get my wallet and get my ID)
Me - I didn't consent to you searching me.
LEO2 - I'm getting your ID.
Me - Again, I didn't consent to a search.
(meanwhile the other officer is glaring at my 1911)
Me - I don't consent to the seizure of my firearm.
LEO2 - You know carrying around a gun like this, especially in front of the bank is going to get attention and you got it. And what's with this hat, "Black man with a gun"? You are really looking for attention.
Me - I like to exercise my 1st and 2nd Amendment rights. So I'm being detained?
LEO2 - Yup.
Me - And why am I in cuffs again? I didn't do anything illegal.
LEO2 - For our safety.
Me - And mine.
LEO2 - You know that if you even cover up your firearm, it would be concealed and we could arrest you.
Me - Yeah....and that's why I'm carrying it openly.
While LEO2 when to "check my papers", I tried to make small talk with LEO1. Asking him how was his day going, what caliber glock do you guys carry, general stuff. And I could tell he wasn't happy. I felt that he KNEW I wasn't doing anything wrong, especially since he was giving me 1 word answers. I then overheard over his radio that the call was for a man carrying in plain sight. So I wanted to ask the ultimate question that I wanted to know the answer to.
Me - So, uh, after you guys let me go, what are you going to do?
LEO1 - 
My friend came out the building and instructed friend to wait by the car. LEO2 came back and took the cuffs off.
Me - So I'm free to go?
LEO1 & 2 -
Me - Thank you officers, have a great day!
Before LEO2 could even gather enough breathe to say something (trying to get in the last word)...
Me - Thank you, have a great day!
LEO2 started to walk me with me trying to get the last word.
LEO2 - You know that there are certain places where you cannot carry that?
Me - Already know that, have a great day!!
LEO2 -
Now, I'm going down to the Norfolk Police Admin office to file a complaint and try to get a FOIA. Well see what happens then.
Now...the bad news...
After I got back to the car, I couldn't find my friend. My friend was waiting a block away and down another street. My friend said somethings that made me feel that my friend didn't support me. The things my friend said made me feel that it would have been better to be shot dead than live with the words and actions my friend did. I took my friend home and got into a heated debate. I left with the knowledge that my friend doesn't have my back 100% even thought said friend claimed they did. It's hard knowing that the people who say they support you 100% in anything you do only show 60% action. Not only that, my Dad doesn't support me.
I haven't told him what happened yesterday, but he believes that guns should only be kept in the house. But he's all for going to the range and gun rights. It doesn't make logical sense to me. I don't care what other people think, but it saddens me to hear it from friends and family.
Alas, I won't let the hurt ruin my ways of spreading the word of OC. I will ALWAYS carry openly (with a few exceptions). Unlike those who frown on OC, I'm doing something to educate and desensitize the public.
I welcome all positive and negative feedback.
Thanks in advance!
Again you amaze me by keeping your cool.
Carry on my friend
DC
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sitedzn
Regular Member
| Joined: | Sun Dec 31st, 2006 |
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| Posts: | 514 |
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Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 02:34 am |
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| oh this is killing me that i probably missed this scene by no more than an hour! i was staying at the sheraton at waterside for a wedding this weekend. i know there were lots of bank buildings across the street (used the BofA elevated cross walk) and figure that's the area he's talking about. i could be (probably am) wrong as this was my first trip to this specific area of Norfolk. i didn't get down there till about 6-6:30. i think my jaw would have dropped just watching Danbus keep his cool. Last edited on Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 02:35 am by sitedzn
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unrequited
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 02:35 am |
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danbus wrote:
LEO2 - You know that if you even cover up your firearm, it would be concealed and we could arrest you.
Me - Yeah....and that's why I'm carrying it openly.
??? How did he know you didn't have a CHP, or he only said this after you didn't have one? Or you're under 21? I'm confused.
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lax
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 02:40 am |
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This dude, Charles Moose, got a pile of cash just because the hotel asked to check his room key. Getting any good ideas?
http://www.overlawyered.com/2003/09/200_k_for_moose_carding.html
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savery
Regular Member
| Joined: | Sat Mar 17th, 2007 |
| Location: | Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 202 |
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Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 02:46 am |
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There was an administrative law judge around here that almost got 60 million for a lost pair of pants.... but no dice.
yet i get sold a lemon boat trailer that could have killed someone (myself included) yet I can't find a lawyer that wants anything to do with it.
what's up with this world? you can sue because of your race, you can sue for your pants, but if you genuinely get screwed, you can't do jack!
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Tomahawk
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 03:21 am |
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Well, in this case, I think you can make the argument that the cops acted this way because of the man's skin color. They got a call about a black guy with a gun standing around outside a bank and they figured they knew what this was all about, so they went in heavy.
I have never sympathized much with those who cry racism, perhaps because I always think of obnoxious asses like Jackson and Sharpton when I hear the word, but every once in a while you hear about an incident that rings the bell. This may be one of them, can't say for sure.
Last edited on Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 03:21 am by Tomahawk
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openryan
State Researcher
| Joined: | Wed Apr 18th, 2007 |
| Location: | Indiana USA |
| Posts: | 1609 |
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Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 03:42 am |
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I am not trying undermine the motives for danbus' open carrying.
But quite a few of us here, myself included, are usually well aware of our apprearance and dress professional or at the very least nice clothing, nothing too provocative.
Wearing a BMWAG hat but me a little much, and one should at least know that doing such will surely get you some unwanted attention, at least a few strange looks, and probably routine police encounter from concerned 'sheeple'.
The police were definately out of line in some of their tactics regarding the handling of this situation, but come on -- when you walk out of the house with a hat like that and a gun in plain view, you have to know what can happen.
Personally, knowing the personalities of most of you on the board strictly from readings, I would not be the least bit frightened if any of you approached me, however if I saw someone like this on the street, even if I thought they were not a threat to me, I might create a little distance between us.
Again, I am not trying to take the wind out of the sail here, but does nobody feel this way?
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TEX1N
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 03:47 am |
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ckpolaris wrote: "Norfolk standoff over as man with gun surrenders"
http://content.hamptonroads.com/story.cfm?story=127485&ran=134658
Hey - Danbus made it into the paper! 
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Tomahawk
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 03:52 am |
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openryan wrote:
The police were definately out of line in some of their tactics regarding the handling of this situation, but come on -- when you walk out of the house with a hat like that and a gun in plain view, you have to know what can happen...
...Again, I am not trying to take the wind out of the sail here, but does nobody feel this way?
I certainly don't feel that way. His hat is funny to anyone with a sense of humor.
As to "what can happen when you walk out with a hat like that and a gun", well, that can happen to you for just walking around with the gun, no hat required. But it's a chance we all take because wearing that gun or that hat is a right, it's not against the law, and we feel like it.
In any case, the hat question is a moot point, because the cops were pointing a loaded gun at this man before they even saw the hat!
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openryan
State Researcher
| Joined: | Wed Apr 18th, 2007 |
| Location: | Indiana USA |
| Posts: | 1609 |
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Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 03:57 am |
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I agree with you on this -- but I am not making the point that the hat caused the police to pull their weapons, but that there would probably be an increased chance of a concerned citizen making a call based on that fact alone.
Having a gun pointed at you may just be the procedure when receiving that type of call.
I dress however I want when I cc, which is rare. But dress professionally, or at the least a nice outfit so that people will not view me as a threat, but more so in case of a police encounter. Your impression to people will make them judge you very quickly, and if I can change my impression by not saying a word, and being judged solely on my appreance alone (which I do agree is unjust) I am going to take that advantage to avoid misinterpretation.
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Tomahawk
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 04:00 am |
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openryan wrote: I agree with you on this -- but I am not making the point that the hat caused the police to pull their weapons, but that there would probably be an increased chance of a concerned citizen making a call based on that fact alone.
Having a gun pointed at you may just be the procedure when receiving that type of call.
I dress however I want when I cc, which is rare. But dress professionally, or at the least a nice outfit so that people will not view me as a threat, but more so in case of a police encounter. Your impression to people will make them judge you very quickly, and if I can change my impression by not saying a word, and being judged solely on my appreance alone (which I do agree is unjust) I am going to take that advantage to avoid misinterpretation.
I actually agree with you to a point; and I dress pretty conservative anyway.
But, comon', it's not like he was wearing a Che Guevarra or Cop-Killa' hat or something. I think it's pretty funny.
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openryan
State Researcher
| Joined: | Wed Apr 18th, 2007 |
| Location: | Indiana USA |
| Posts: | 1609 |
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Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 04:10 am |
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I think it is funny as well, and if he was concealed carrying while wearing that hat, he most likely would never have had a second look or police encounter. But from a person walking down the street -- even if it was Jerry Seinfeld, he may be concerned, as he does not know the true intent of danbus, political activism I suppose, as well as excercising his 2A RIGHT (do want anyone to think I am bashing what danbus is trying to accomplish, as I think it is a noble cause).
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TrueBrit
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 04:37 am |
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Tomahawk wrote: openryan wrote: I agree with you on this -- but I am not making the point that the hat caused the police to pull their weapons, but that there would probably be an increased chance of a concerned citizen making a call based on that fact alone.
Having a gun pointed at you may just be the procedure when receiving that type of call.
I dress however I want when I cc, which is rare. But dress professionally, or at the least a nice outfit so that people will not view me as a threat, but more so in case of a police encounter. Your impression to people will make them judge you very quickly, and if I can change my impression by not saying a word, and being judged solely on my appreance alone (which I do agree is unjust) I am going to take that advantage to avoid misinterpretation.
I actually agree with you to a point; and I dress pretty conservative anyway.
But, comon', it's not like he was wearing a Che Guevarra or Cop-Killa' hat or something. I think it's pretty funny.
My friend of the Native American cutlery and I have had fun sparring with each other over hats, OC dress etc,here and in another thread, but our comrade Danbus and his troubles is a serious matter, I believe.
My personal belief is that he should be able to wear any hat that he wishes to.
I, like Tomahawk, am a little cynical when I see Sharpton, Jackson etc unashamedly playing the race card to advance their questionable agenda.
Nonetheless, it is unconscionable to me that a gentleman of colour, like Danbus, should be criticised by cops over his choice of headgear while OCing. It also troubles me that he may well have been profiled, in the true sense of the word.
I congratulate him on his handling of the situation, and, one day soon, would like to visit, and OC with him.
A funny- talking white guy accompanying a black guy, both OC ing ! Maybe INSIDE the bloody bank!That ought to F-ck with the minds of the Keystone Cops up there!Especially if I wear the Aussie stock contractor gear that Tomahawk admires so much!
Good luck to Danbus, and more power to him!
TrueBrit.
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AbNo
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 06:26 am |
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openryan wrote:
Wearing a BMWAG hat but me a little much, and one should at least know that doing such will surely get you some unwanted attention, at least a few strange looks, and probably routine police encounter from concerned 'sheeple'.
Again, I am not trying to take the wind out of the sail here, but does nobody feel this way?
Attention, maybe. I have a couple of Protest Warrior shirts, but I don't think that means I should be cuffed because I might rob a bank with a sword. 
This one specifically... http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/5821/pwlogoph1.jpg (Yaa! Spam!)
Couple that with the fact that BMWAG is a blog ( http://blackmanwithagun.com/ ), and you've got a bit of a shaky argument there.
I mean, if I had a shirt with my friend LindaSOG's blog name on it, it wouldn't be much different. Well, that and she doesn't call it "Middle Aged Jewish Chick with a Gun"....
That being said, I should get a shirt (I don't wear hats) that says "Fuzzy man with a Gun."
Uht, and actually, she's apparently armed now!
http://www.lindasog.com/archives/2007/07/gay_rights.html
And despite the article title, no she's not gay.
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Scheetz
Regular Member
| Joined: | Wed May 9th, 2007 |
| Location: | P. W., Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 140 |
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Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 07:40 am |
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Wow Danbus, you sure have a nack for pulling in the police. I am amazed that you can keep your calm. I would not have even said a word when told to put my hands on the car. I just would have followed the command.
With that hold up in Norfolk. Kinda funny, I passed by that area no less than 2 hours before that guy was out there. That road is a cut through for me to school after a good night at the bar.  And no I do not carry when I drink, and yes I have a DD.
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mercutio545
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 09:13 am |
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If you have a voice recorder, and they detain you and turn it off, what can you do about that? Are they allowed to turn it off?
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Doug Huffman
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 12:24 pm |
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Are they allowed to turn it off?
After all, it is for their 'safety.' Safety is a good tool for tyrants since no one can be against safety. Safety is a state of mind, like Condition Yellow, and cannot be purchased or legislated.
Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA KMA$$
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markand
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 12:59 pm |
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mercutio545 wrote: If you have a voice recorder, and they detain you and turn it off, what can you do about that? Are they allowed to turn it off?
If you have a cell phone, try calling yourself and see if you can leave yourself a message. If your cell provider and phone permit, you can program a speed dial number and have a means of recording a conversation that police can't tamper with. The recording isn't in your phone, its stored by your cell provider. Alternatively, call a number that has the ability to record your conversation and won't be answered when you are out and about. I use my home office number. A Bluetooth ear piece, even if it is in your pocket, has an excellent, sensitive microphone. It will take quite a while for it to be detected that your phone is on. Push the speed dial button at the beginning of an encounter and put the phone in your pocket.
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