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Hawkflyer
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 12:05 pm |
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While I understand the point, this idea that a person should not wear a specific hat just because they are armed is ridiculous. Like Tomahawk I think it is funny to anyone with a sense of humor. But there is a more important issue here.
If wearing a particular hat with a message on it attracts police attention, then that police force needs to be disbanded, or the officer involved needs to be fired outright. This is the US. The First amendment stands along side the second.
Frankly the BMWAG hat is nothing more than truth in advertising in this case. The fact that the police even mentioned the hat in this encounter, opens the door to a lot of thinking about the possible violation of Danbus's first amendment rights. It is very clear that he was profiled in this case for whatever reasons.
It is serious, it is actionable, and the clothing he was wearing is irrelevant.
Regards
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nakedshoplifter
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 12:41 pm |
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| My cellphone voicemail has a three minute limit.
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30 cal slut
Regular Member
| Joined: | Mon Feb 12th, 2007 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 180 |
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Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 01:00 pm |
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danbus,
i'm sorry you went through that (again) - but i can't help but chuckle a little at your account of the events that transpired.
wear whatever hat you want. maybe you should rotate your headgear every other day - BMWAG and BMWAL(awyer). LOL!  
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HankT
State Researcher
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Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 03:19 pm |
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danbus wrote: I wanted to hold off my story until I got it resolved, but I must get it off my chest since I have no one else to talk to. Again this is MY side of the story.
This event occured 6/29/07 approx 4:55pm.
...I welcome all positive and negative feedback.
Wow, they got you again. 
Sorry to hear about your misfortune. Am very glad you handled it so well and that the NPD had nothing to show for their alarmist commando call.
Clearly your rights were violated and I hope that some meaningful measure of corrective action can and will be taken for the that.
As far as the hat goes, I really really dig the humor. Takes guts to do that kind of sardonic/sarcastic humor. Almost nobody really gets it and almost everyone will tell you not to do it.  Because the world is stil like it is, I'm afraid you will always have a good chance of being a BMWAG in the sense that the humor is aimed at...
I'm glad you are OK and you gotta keep on keepin' on. 
30 cal slut wrote: wear whatever hat you want. maybe you should rotate your headgear every other day - BMWAG and BMWAL(awyer). LOL!
Amen. Or maybe one hat with BMWAGAAL. 
BWT, how many people (general public) even know what BMWAG means?
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BobCav
Founder's Club Member
| Joined: | Thu Feb 8th, 2007 |
| Location: | Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 2804 |
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Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 03:59 pm |
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Danbus, I was wearing my "The cops pulled me over for carrying THESE guns" t-shirt at the Burke Lake Park and nobody said a thing.
It could have been worse, you could have said one of these pearls:
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vrwmiller
Regular Member
| Joined: | Fri Feb 23rd, 2007 |
| Location: | Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 1058 |
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Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 04:06 pm |
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ckpolaris wrote:I'm not sure where I accused Danbus of doing wrong. I was trying to point out specific incidents that have happened in norfolk recently, that would somewhat excuse why they were acting they way they were.
It's no excuse. Each situation presents it's own circumstances. LE need operate with this understanding.
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possumboy
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 05:21 pm |
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danbus wrote:
Me - Now I know you are just doing your job, but I'm not answering your questions without a lawyer present. (at this point I was pissed).
LEO2 - Fine. (he then reaches into my pocket to get my wallet and get my ID)
Me - I didn't consent to you searching me.
LEO2 - I'm getting your ID.
Me - Again, I didn't consent to a search.
(meanwhile the other officer is glaring at my 1911)
Me - I don't consent to the seizure of my firearm.
LEO2 - You know carrying around a gun like this, especially in front of the bank is going to get attention and you got it. And what's with this hat, "Black man with a gun"? You are really looking for attention.
Me - I like to exercise my 1st and 2nd Amendment rights. So I'm being detained?
LEO2 - Yup.
Me - And why am I in cuffs again? I didn't do anything illegal.
LEO2 - For our safety.
Me - And mine.
LEO2 - You know that if you even cover up your firearm, it would be concealed and we could arrest you.
Me - Yeah....and that's why I'm carrying it openly.
While LEO2 when to "check my papers", I tried to make small talk with LEO1. Asking him how was his day going, what caliber glock do you guys carry, general stuff. And I could tell he wasn't happy. I felt that he KNEW I wasn't doing anything wrong, especially since he was giving me 1 word answers. I then overheard over his radio that the call was for a man carrying in plain sight. So I wanted to ask the ultimate question that I wanted to know the answer to.
danbus,
Looks like you handled yourself very well. The only thing I will point out is that when you started your "small talk" you revoked your rights to remain silent. Giving the LEOs the ability to start questioning you again. When you invoke your rights, stay quiet.
Again, it does sound like you did everything right here, but if you make "small talk" you do need to invoke your rights again by saying them again.
This whole "safety" issues is BS. If you were going to shoot them to get away, you would have drawn when you saw them, or started fighting when they started harassing you. Some people just can't think past the tip of what they have been told.
Last edited on Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 05:23 pm by possumboy
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vtme_grad98
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 05:42 pm |
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savery wrote: There was an administrative law judge around here that almost got 60 million for a lost pair of pants.... but no dice.
yet i get sold a lemon boat trailer that could have killed someone (myself included) yet I can't find a lawyer that wants anything to do with it.
what's up with this world? you can sue because of your race, you can sue for your pants, but if you genuinely get screwed, you can't do jack!
The difference is that he was his own lawyer for that. He was also probably well aware that he wouldn't get the money. But, being a lawyer who apparently has too much free time, he was well equipped to ment that family for years with this suit. I just hope their countersuit for legal fees plays out well.
The challenge is that you first have to find a lawyer that cares about fighting for good causes. Then, in that already small pool, you have to find one who isn't already tying up all of his free time with other good causes.
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HankT
State Researcher
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Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 06:25 pm |
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Hawkflyer wrote: While color may matter to the police, I have not met anyone from this forum that holds that view.
Oh there are probably a few...there always are some.
I recall that one person here was dissatisfied with the discussion about Danbus' stop at the Wal-Mart. Guy said that the "white and black thing" was at the very least "disingenous." And maybe even more than that. He didn't see a need to discuss that stuff.
But there are very similar circumstances involved in both stops. Very similar comments in the threads about color, too. Maybe he'll pipe in on this one too.
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Doug Huffman
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 06:26 pm |
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In the days before the Band of Blue (either we are equal or we are not.), I used to take grief for suggesting that we all have dark blue T-shirts or nylon windbreakers with the word 'POLITE' in yellow block letters draped over our car's seat back.
Our local retired cop used to ask, 'why would you want to be mistaken for police?' Imagine! My retort, 'why would some cops want to be mistaken for being polite?' This perhaps after cleaning up their mess at the range.
Now, with a minute and some colored vinyl everyone can be more equal than the guy without.
Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA KMA$$
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vtme_grad98
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 07:59 pm |
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HankT wrote: Hawkflyer wrote: While color may matter to the police, I have not met anyone from this forum that holds that view.
Oh there are probably a few...there always are some.
I recall that one person here was dissatisfied with the discussion about Danbus' stop at the Wal-Mart. Guy said that the "white and black thing" was at the very least "disingenous." And maybe even more than that. He didn't see a need to discuss that stuff.
But there are very similar circumstances involved in both stops. Very similar comments in the threads about color, too. Maybe he'll pipe in on this one too.
When you don't care about color, you can expect to be very surprised at one point or another at who does care about that type of thing.
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reefteach
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 08:52 pm |
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Asking for attention, maybe.
Asking for a violation of your civil rights, doubtful.
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DrMark
Lone Star Veteran
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Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 09:29 pm |
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Danbus,
Maybe I missed it, but did you get the names of the officers?
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kaiheitai17
Regular Member
| Joined: | Sun Feb 18th, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 556 |
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Offline
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Posted: Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 03:34 am |
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I am beginning to think that Danbus craves the attention of authority figures and this is his way of reaching out.
You really need to get a recorder and you really need to get a lawyer not IF but WHEN this happens again.
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Reverend73
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 12:34 pm |
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Well, I went with Dan to file for the FOIA stuff regarding this incident. It was ENTIRELY uneventful. The officers in the station didn't say one word about us open carrying, not one. Man how I wanted them to say something. Oh well. Then we went to the exact same spot where he was accosted the other day and waited for his friend. One of the security guards from the other day was there and I made sure he noticed I was packing. Nothing. A Norfolk Sherrif drove by twice, but I never notice her looking our way. As we were leaving when his friend arrived, a Norfolk PD cruiser passed by as we were driving off. Then we drove back to Dan's car so we could look at his a/c problem and as we were looking under the hood two bike cops pedaled by. His friend said they looked right at us, but then rolled on by. Like I said, uneventful
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openryan
State Researcher
| Joined: | Wed Apr 18th, 2007 |
| Location: | Indiana USA |
| Posts: | 1609 |
| Status: |
Offline
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Posted: Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 12:48 pm |
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Reverend73 wrote: Well, I went with Dan to file for the FOIA stuff regarding this incident. It was ENTIRELY uneventful. The officers in the station didn't say one word about us open carrying, not one. Man how I wanted them to say something. Oh well. Then we went to the exact same spot where he was accosted the other day and waited for his friend. One of the security guards from the other day was there and I made sure he noticed I was packing. Nothing. A Norfolk Sherrif drove by twice, but I never notice her looking our way. As we were leaving when his friend arrived, a Norfolk PD cruiser passed by as we were driving off. Then we drove back to Dan's car so we could look at his a/c problem and as we were looking under the hood two bike cops pedaled by. His friend said they looked right at us, but then rolled on by. Like I said, uneventful
Maybe change the indifferent smiley for a -- After all, this is what we want right?
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openryan
State Researcher
| Joined: | Wed Apr 18th, 2007 |
| Location: | Indiana USA |
| Posts: | 1609 |
| Status: |
Offline
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Posted: Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 12:50 pm |
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Hawkflyer wrote: While I understand the point, this idea that a person should not wear a specific hat just because they are armed is ridiculous. Like Tomahawk I think it is funny to anyone with a sense of humor. But there is a more important issue here.
If wearing a particular hat with a message on it attracts police attention, then that police force needs to be disbanded, or the officer involved needs to be fired outright. This is the US. The First amendment stands along side the second.
Frankly the BMWAG hat is nothing more than truth in advertising in this case. The fact that the police even mentioned the hat in this encounter, opens the door to a lot of thinking about the possible violation of Danbus's first amendment rights. It is very clear that he was profiled in this case for whatever reasons.
It is serious, it is actionable, and the clothing he was wearing is irrelevant.
Regards
Hawk,
I was not trying to make any comment on how the police treated Danbus based on his choice of headgear...
Moreso I was trying to make the point that a concerned citizen may be alarmed by his choice of headgear, prompting a call to the police.
How dare you think the police would ever, ever profile someone! (sarcasm)
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HankT
State Researcher
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Posted: Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 12:55 pm |
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Reverend73 wrote: Well, I went with Dan to file for the FOIA stuff regarding this incident. It was ENTIRELY uneventful. The officers in the station didn't say one word about us open carrying, not one. Man how I wanted them to say something. Oh well.
I'm sure that Danbus has a valid basis for complaint and it is a great thing that you went along for moral support and fellowship....but why on earth would you want "the officers in the station ... to say something" so badly?
That doesn't make any sense to me.
Were you looking for justice? A confrontation? Did you have a snappy comment ready for them?
I'm curious. Just why would you want them to say something?
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LoveMyCountry
State Researcher
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Posted: Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 02:21 pm |
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Regarding the voice recorder, does anybody else see a bad ending to the combination of "put your hands up" and you reaching into your pocket to start your recording? 
As you are pulled over, you can start the recording but how can we to start it when the Police are already on you?
LoveMyCountry
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bohdi
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 02:42 pm |
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| Pardon me officer, before you begin I must slowly put my hands in a non-threatening way into my upper left breast shirt pocket and activate an electrical device used to log ambient acoustical anomolies in the environment immediately surrounding me. Your patience and understanding is appreciated as this has very significant scientific value to me. Thank you for your support.
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