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Neplusultra
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Mar 8th, 2008 08:11 pm |
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LEO 229 wrote: They are going to make an example out of you.
You're right, they will try to do so. Plus they now have to cover and excuse the actions they took which violated his rights! I would suggest he make an example out of them instead. The "only" leg they have to stand on is his use of the name "Mr. Christopher". Beyond the apprehension that may have wrongfully and incorrectly and temporarily raised, they have no argument. Unless writing stories like his is illegal.....which it's NOT!
Edit: removed unfounded accusation against school admins.
Last edited on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 08:13 pm by Neplusultra
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Tomahawk
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Mar 8th, 2008 08:46 pm |
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| Well, they'll just keep coming back to the guns in your car, and how it's against policy. That's your weak spot here.
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Neplusultra
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Mar 8th, 2008 08:52 pm |
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Does anyone know who the Tech grad student was that got expelled or threatened with expulsion because he was caught CCing on campus? The university eventually allowed him to stay on campus and he agreed to no longer carry. This was before the Tech shooting though.
He might have some good advice.
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Neplusultra
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Mar 8th, 2008 08:58 pm |
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Tomahawk wrote: Well, they'll just keep coming back to the guns in your car, and how it's against policy. That's your weak spot here.
Not really IMO, there is nothing in the law that says he can't, everything that says he can. They have a policy against it but they are a state agency and he is not an employee. It's a grey area, one that I think the Va AG supports the school (IIRC) but not necessarily one that couldn't be won in court.
(Edit: I believe I was wrong above, see what CPerdue says about AG opinions below)
There are also other isssues in his favor. Ie, he doesn't live on campus so the school in effect denies him the right to carry most of the day and in places they have no jursidiction, and he had the guns in his vehicle not on his person.
Last edited on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 12:18 am by Neplusultra
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Neplusultra
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Mar 8th, 2008 08:59 pm |
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Steve, have they given you your guns back yet?
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Mike
Super Moderator
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Posted: Sat Mar 8th, 2008 09:12 pm |
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capablanca911 wrote: My appeal is with the Chancellor on Monday morning.
Bring with a you a copy of this AG opinion, http://www.vcdl.org/static/letters.html, and highlight the following sentence: "In light of the General Assembly’s specific statements regarding the limits of carrying concealed handguns and the grant of authority to colleges and universities to regulate the conduct of students and employees, it is my opinion that neither a board of visitors nor a president of a public college or university may infer authority from its enabling legislation to adopt a universal prohibition of carrying concealed handguns by holders with valid permits."
If a CHP holder cannot carry and secure guns even in his vehicle, then the university policy amounts to the "universal prohibition" that the Attorney General has said cannot stand.
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capablanca911
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Posted: Sat Mar 8th, 2008 09:16 pm |
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I didn't even realize that Christopher was my professor's first name! I had heard it, but when I was doing the character in my head I was thinking of Warren Christopher, Bill Clinton's first secretary of state! I needed the professor to be a prick and that's what came to mind, lol!
I actually thought Professor Scalia was a stand up guy.
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capablanca911
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Posted: Sat Mar 8th, 2008 09:27 pm |
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The Campus Police are going to turn them over to my dad next Friday.
The Campus Police have been really good to me over this, it's the Vice Chancellor and the crisis counselor that issued the TDO that I have a grievance with.
My fellow students, my professor, and the cops haven't done anything legally or morally negligent, IMO. I disagree with them, but they aren't acting maliciously.
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CPerdue
Regular Member
| Joined: | Tue Jun 13th, 2006 |
| Location: | Salem |
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Posted: Sat Mar 8th, 2008 09:52 pm |
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Does anyone know who the Tech grad student was that got expelled or threatened with expulsion because he was caught CCing on campus?
Um, that would be me.
I made a 'Dillon Rule' argument based on The Code of Virginia, ss 23-114 which created the VT Board of Visitors (and thus the school itself) as a corporation under the control of the General Assembly (obviously it will be a different subsection for another school). Being such, the BOV has only the powers deligated to it by the General Assembly. For example, the power to construct roads on campus. Firearms are not mentioned in those powers.
ss 23-122 says the BOV can make any rules they want, "not contrary to law".
ss 18.2-308 says just exactly what that law is regarding concealed weapons, with 308.1 dealing expressly with school property and paragraph B(i) listing "elementary, middle, or high school[s]," meaning that colleges are expressly not included in the prohibited places list.
AG opinion 02-074 backs up my interpretation of how the statutes are construed. This opinion dealt with the Dept. of Conservation and Recreation, not exactly the same thing as a state corporation (or locality where preemption would have covered it).
AG opinion 03-083 states that the school may not have a rule of expelling all students who's actions [with firearms] are in conformity with the law. This applied to K-12 schools, so doubly so for adults at college.
Since then we have AG opinion 05-078 (I precipitated this I believe). That opinion has been criticized by legal professionals (I'm an engineer, NAL) saying, "[the BOV] may regulate the conduct of students and employees to prohibit them from carrying concealed on campus."
My case caused a stink way up into Richmond. I was pretty clearly in the right legaly, in a grey zone school policy wise (remember, school policy and internal judicial matters do not follow the same rules as a 'real' court). I've kicked myself many times for not seeing this through to a legal decision but my state representative asked me to let it lie and give him a chance to fix it in the legislature. We all know how well that has gone. Bottom line, they could have tried to expell me and I probably could have sued to be reinstated - in the end they shredded the paperwork and I agreed to be disarmed.
I have OCed several times on campus after I graduated. Never miss the chance.
This has gotten too long - PM me if you want more details.
I think half of the VCDL members read this board but contact them through vcdl.org anyway.
Also look up SCCC (Students for Concealed Carry on Campus) on facebook. I know the VT coordinator, Ken Stanton, kstanton@vt.edu - give him a shout.
Last and most important, GET A REAL LAWYER NOW!!!!! The state bar association has a referral service, also google for civil rights and criminal law practitionersb in your area. This will probably be very expensive to fight, but I wish I had the standing to do it again (post-massacre angst changes your perspective a bit). I'll put up some cash. Shoot, if you can make this a civil rights case the feds will cover your legal fees. If the Heller case goes the correct way it may be a slam dunk anyway.
Keep us informed please,
C.
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Lysander
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Mar 8th, 2008 10:33 pm |
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capablanca911 wrote: Hello all. I'm Steve Barber--the student in question.
To clarify, I wasn't IC'd, I was TDO'd--and released by the judge at my first hearing that Monday morning.
And it's fascinating that the Vice Chancellor knew my permit had been revoked before campus police. And I STILL haven't been notified (other than reading about it in the paper).
What are the odds that if I did a FOIA request for a list of incoming calls to the Commonwealth Attorney I would find his number on it?
I pissed off a lot of school administrators earlier in the year by starting an independent campus newspaper that ran some embarassing stories about how, for example, the campus doesn't have an American flag flying anywhere.
*shrug*
Maybe they got wind about the story my paper was working on about professors sleeping with students? Or how the Vice Chancellor that expelled me, Dr. Juhan illegally employed "prior restraint" in my first issue.
Also of note, the professor that was concerned about my paper is Supreme Court Justice Scalia's son.
They didn't notify you that the CA was going to petition to suspend or revoke your permit? (by they, I mean the CA's office or anyone from the Court)?
Byt yes, the one big piece of free advice I'll give: I agree, get a lawyer. Sit down with one, and if you're comfortable, sign the retainer. There's a time clock runningso do it Asap. Just make sure you're comfortable with who you hire.
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Neplusultra
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Mar 8th, 2008 10:52 pm |
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CPerdue wrote:I'll put up some cash. Shoot, if you can make this a civil rights case the feds will cover your legal fees.
If you get yourself a good lawyer I'll put up $100, more if you need it. There are sources for 2A lawyers around too. Perhaps the NRA or VCDL will have information.
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VApatriot
Regular Member
| Joined: | Mon May 8th, 2006 |
| Location: | Burke, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 562 |
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Posted: Sat Mar 8th, 2008 11:09 pm |
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1. Do I understand correctly that the firearms were seized immediately after being discovered? I'm no lawyer, but that doesn't seem legal. Since no local, state or federal laws were broken what legal authority did they have to seize private property?
2. Is there an exact time for the hearing on Monday? I think it would be a great use of my day off from work if I could be there to help show some support, but I'm not sure that I could make it all the way down there in time.
Good luck, and give 'em hell.
Last edited on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 11:34 pm by VApatriot
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Neplusultra
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Mar 8th, 2008 11:29 pm |
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VApatriot wrote: Is there an exact time for the hearing on Monday? I think it would be a great use of my day off from work if I could be there to help show some support, but I'm not sure that I could make it all the way down there in time.
Good luck, and give 'em hell.
Yea, I'd like to be there. I'll have to trim my beard so I look presentable :^). It'd be a great opportunity to OC on campus too.
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peter nap
Regular Member
| Joined: | Tue Oct 16th, 2007 |
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Posted: Sat Mar 8th, 2008 11:40 pm |
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Well, at last we have a case that I can get behind (other than Chet's).
I'll be happy to donate 100.00.
Anyone want to work out the details?
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Neplusultra
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Mar 8th, 2008 11:46 pm |
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capablanca911 wrote: I didn't even realize that Christopher was my professor's first name! I had heard it, but when I was doing the character in my head I was thinking of Warren Christopher, Bill Clinton's first secretary of state! I needed the professor to be a prick and that's what came to mind, lol!
I actually thought Professor Scalia was a stand up guy.
Ha! Now that is definately in your favor. I hope you're going to stand up and fight this.
BTW, it doesn't surprise me that Scalia is a stand up guy. His dad sure appears to be :^). As soon as I read the prof's name I thought, "I wonder if he's...."
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capablanca911
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 01:45 am |
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Lots of great information. Thanks.
I'm going to have to start repaying a large student loan if the expulsion is upheld at the appeal.
I'm fighting this one, folks. Even if I have to re-enlist to pay for it.
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Neplusultra
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 01:49 am |
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capablanca911 wrote: Lots of great information. Thanks.
I'm going to have to start repaying a large student loan if the expulsion is upheld at the appeal.
I'm fighting this one, folks. Even if I have to re-enlist to pay for it.
Hey, get a good lawyer, especially one with a passion for the 2cd. I and I'm sure a lot of people on this forum will help with the expense. The word is spreading. Already I know this is on two forums. Probably more.
If anyone is involved in other forums like AR15.com or what not please spread the story and the truth about what happened and that he didn't know the prof's first name was Christopher. Links to this thread might be good.
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DrMark
Lone Star Veteran
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 03:21 am |
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Neplusultra wrote: If anyone is involved in other forums like AR15.com or what not please spread the story and the truth about what happened and that he didn't know the prof's first name was Christopher. Links to this thread might be good.
Done.
As far as getting the story correct, I used Mr. Barber's own words. What could be better?
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=24&t=301223
(Virginia Hometown Forum - generally good folks)
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=684045
(General Discussion Forum - more diverse audience, but much more exposure)
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skidmark
Activist Member
| Joined: | Mon Jan 15th, 2007 |
| Location: | Richmond VA |
| Posts: | 1478 |
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 03:21 am |
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I'm good for a cash donation to the expulsion defense fund. PM me when you need it.
A suggestion re: your hearing Monday. Hand them a written request for a continuance to allow you to retain legal counsel. Make them hand-sign your copy of the written request. The time-frame is extremely short for you to even begin to prepare for this on your own, let alone getting your lawyer up to speed.
Since you are under an interim expulsion order anyway, they should not object to a continuance. If they do, it is just more fodder for an eventual lawsuit.
stay safe.
skidmark
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Neplusultra
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 03:50 am |
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skidmark wrote: I'm good for a cash donation to the expulsion defense fund. PM me when you need it.
A suggestion re: your hearing Monday. Hand them a written request for a continuance to allow you to retain legal counsel. Make them hand-sign your copy of the written request. The time-frame is extremely short for you to even begin to prepare for this on your own, let alone getting your lawyer up to speed.
Since you are under an interim expulsion order anyway, they should not object to a continuance. If they do, it is just more fodder for an eventual lawsuit.
stay safe.
skidmark
Very good advice!!! You are in the right, you will win with the right console. There are many behind you, let them know that and know that yourself.
John
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