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mpg9999
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| Joined: | Sun Feb 24th, 2008 |
| Location: | Virginia USA |
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 04:06 am |
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Neplusultra wrote: There are many behind you, let them know that and know that yourself.
John
+1. Let us know if you need anything.
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wchiang
Regular Member
| Joined: | Sun Nov 25th, 2007 |
| Location: | Chantilly, VA |
| Posts: | 73 |
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 04:23 am |
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If you need, I know a very good pro-2A attorney with very good experience. His firm has some of the top attorneys listed by the Washingtonian and represented the DC sniper case. Give me a shout if you need.
Good luck and keep up updated! We're all supporting you and on your side!
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cato
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| Joined: | Sun Oct 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 1607 |
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 04:26 am |
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| Take an audio or video recorder into your hearing. Make it known you're recording. Lawyer up fast. Last edited on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 04:33 am by cato
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packingdressagerider
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 06:06 am |
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LEO 229 wrote: This reminds me of the school that suspended a 2nd or 3rd grade kid for just drawing a picture of a gun.
Some schools are going overboard.
I would have told them to go get the search warrant.... they had no grounds to successfully obtain one. Writing a fictional story in a creative writing class is hardly any proof.
That's just nuts. I'm thinking back to when I was in creative writing at a community college in Va. I wrote both a novel, and a short story that had all kinds of stuff about firearms. Jeeze, things have really changed since I did creative writing. I hope now that because I write a lot of stuff with characters who do have firearms that I won't be singled out in such a manner. I realize that times are different, but I think this is so extreme. I would consider this harassment by college adminstration.
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unrequited
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 09:35 am |
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capablanca911 wrote:
I didn't even realize that Christopher was my professor's first name! I had heard it, but when I was doing the character in my head I was thinking of Warren Christopher, Bill Clinton's first secretary of state! I needed the professor to be a prick and that's what came to mind, lol!
No, no! Don't say that, you're going to get the Secret Service on you now. You should have said William Christopher who's just an actor.
Good luck with the fight, but it's going to be a hard one concerning the guns in the car, and their asinine student policy. You could always try to remind them of the last shooting at a higher learning institution in Virginia before VTech... Appalachian School of Law shooting where not one but two separate students had firearms in their vehicles in defiance of student policy and used them to successfully detain and disarm the shooter.
Good luck regardless and thank you for coming onto this site to post and give your story, regardless, please stick around.
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capablanca911
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 02:20 pm |
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Haha! But if I lie and say it was William Christopher (Father Mulcahy from MASH), then they'll put me back in the funny farm because who could ever think about hurting Padre? LOL!
I mentioned the Grundy incident and how no one remembers it because there was such a low body count thanks to those two students.
I really appreciate all of the support, guys.
Keep me in your prayers too!
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paramedic70002
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 04:38 pm |
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So are campus police officers allowed/required to enforce policy? Yet another gray area... in general the police do not enforce policy of a private establishment other than removing you as a trespasser if the proprietor indicated you are not welcome as a result of not follwoing policy. Private security, contracted to the establishment, can and does enforce policy. So where does that leave campus police?
When your dad picks up the weapons, you should have him turn around and hand them to you, then load up and conceal while still in the police station...
I think you have the makings of a major lawsuit that could end up invalidating this whole NO GUNS ON CAMPUS thing. In a way, too bad they didn't find some bogus charge to hit you with so you could get it zapped in criminal court.
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Toad
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| Joined: | Sun Jun 18th, 2006 |
| Location: | Virginia USA |
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 05:15 pm |
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More proof that Zero Tolerance = Zero Thought.
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cato
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| Joined: | Sun Oct 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | California USA |
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 05:17 pm |
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| I'm with you 98.6% but someone has to say it...that was a dumb topic for a paper.
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LRS76251
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 05:54 pm |
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From what I've read of the account on here, the worst that should have happened to him should have been to get expelled for violating school policy since he was a student. The TDO, etc was wayyyyy out of line. He had a CCW, so no state law was broken by having the guns in his car. Since the VT shootings, it probably wasn't the best of ideas to write the story that he did but it still shouldn't have received the attention it did. If it had been at any other time, there probably wouldn't have been all the attention given to this incident. Honestly, it shouldn't have mattered. No TDO should have been ordered in the case. It is a case of crappy investigative techniques used by campus police and campus administrators trying to make an example of a student by abusing its statutory authority. Although they have state certifications, most campus police couldn't catch a cold it if caught them first. Most of them are pretty incompetent officers. They should leave investigations to REAL professionals and go back to playing barney fife on campus. I'm a cop and I know they are idiots because I've seen how they conduct themselves first hand. When we go on campuses across the country to do security details for political candidates, most of us end up walking away shaking our heads in disbelief. I agree that the school administrators in this case are the ones who need counselling and not the student. Some people have absolutely NO common sense whatsoever these days. They've been brainwashed beyond belief when it comes to firearms possession. I do agree that prudence is necessary when you are going to own and carry firearms. This case just goes overboard. Sounds like the campus administrators have an agenda, albeit, he did make himself a good, open target for them.
Honestly, I think there was a lack of good judgement on both sides in this case. The OP voluntarily gave consent to search his car. There was no PC because if officers ever have to ask you for consent, that means they don't have anything to base a search on. If they have PC they wouldn't ask, they'd just search your property. Otherwise, they need a warrant and warrants aren't easy to get in cases like this...and it takes time to secure them legally. I'm sorry to hear this happened to the OP. I wish him the best of luck with fighting the case and hope he's successful with it. Its obvious to me that the school abused its authority here and that it needs to be fixed. Perhaps it may mean legislating criminal charges and mandatory jail time for college administrators that abuse their statutory authority. I think the OP may have a good civil rights case at the Fed level here. Get a good attorney and go kick their ass.
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Mike
Super Moderator
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 08:17 pm |
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LRS76251 wrote: He had a CCW, so no state law was broken by having the guns in his car.
No concealed handgun permit is required to store guns in vehicle, including unlocked compartments. Pruitt v. Commonwealth, (Va. 2007).
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LRS76251
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| Joined: | Tue Oct 16th, 2007 |
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 09:24 pm |
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I didn't mean to imply that a CCW was required to store firearms in a vehicle in VA because it definitely is not. I probably should have rephrased the sentence to minimize any confusion in the matter. However, if I understand how the law is being applied in VA on campuses correctly, it is my understanding that there are no general prohibitions for CCW holders on college campuses as far as the state code unless you are a member of the university community (faculty, student, staff). Violating school policy will just get you either fired or expelled if you are faculty, staff, or a student of the school. Going onto a campus without a CCW while carrying a firearm seems to be a gray area since the AG opinion doesn't apply to non-CCW holders, but I don't know. Some officers may want to make you a test case and even though it may eventually get thrown out in court down the road, you'd still have to endure all the legal expenses (attorney fees, etc), arrests and booking, plus having the incident entered into NCIC, etc, etc. The laws for carrying firearms on campuses for those other than active LE and CCW holders appears to be a little murky to me. It needs to be fixed but unfortunately, it doesn't appear that its going to happen this year.
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Citizen
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 09:28 pm |
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Toad wrote: More proof that Zero Tolerance = Zero Thought.
Now that I think about it, the two would almost always go hand-in-hand, wouldn't they?
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ama-gi
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| Joined: | Sat Sep 8th, 2007 |
| Location: | Fairfax, VA |
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 09:45 pm |
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Mike wrote: capablanca911 wrote: My appeal is with the Chancellor on Monday morning.
Bring with a you a copy of this AG opinion, http://www.vcdl.org/static/letters.html, and highlight the following sentence: "In light of the General Assembly’s specific statements regarding the limits of carrying concealed handguns and the grant of authority to colleges and universities to regulate the conduct of students and employees, it is my opinion that neither a board of visitors nor a president of a public college or university may infer authority from its enabling legislation to adopt a universal prohibition of carrying concealed handguns by holders with valid permits."
If a CHP holder cannot carry and secure guns even in his vehicle, then the university policy amounts to the "universal prohibition" that the Attorney General has said cannot stand.
If you get expelled, you could be a test case to test this in the courts and some good could come out of this after all.
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ama-gi
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 10:07 pm |
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CPerdue wrote: Does anyone know who the Tech grad student was that got expelled or threatened with expulsion because he was caught CCing on campus?
Um, that would be me.
I made a 'Dillon Rule' argument based on The Code of Virginia, ss 23-114 which created the VT Board of Visitors (and thus the school itself) as a corporation under the control of the General Assembly (obviously it will be a different subsection for another school). Being such, the BOV has only the powers deligated to it by the General Assembly. For example, the power to construct roads on campus. Firearms are not mentioned in those powers.
ss 23-122 says the BOV can make any rules they want, "not contrary to law".
ss 18.2-308 says just exactly what that law is regarding concealed weapons, with 308.1 dealing expressly with school property and paragraph B(i) listing "elementary, middle, or high school[s]," meaning that colleges are expressly not included in the prohibited places list.
AG opinion 02-074 backs up my interpretation of how the statutes are construed. This opinion dealt with the Dept. of Conservation and Recreation, not exactly the same thing as a state corporation (or locality where preemption would have covered it).
AG opinion 03-083 states that the school may not have a rule of expelling all students who's actions [with firearms] are in conformity with the law. This applied to K-12 schools, so doubly so for adults at college.
Since then we have AG opinion 05-078 (I precipitated this I believe). That opinion has been criticized by legal professionals (I'm an engineer, NAL) saying, "[the BOV] may regulate the conduct of students and employees to prohibit them from carrying concealed on campus."
My case caused a stink way up into Richmond. I was pretty clearly in the right legaly, in a grey zone school policy wise (remember, school policy and internal judicial matters do not follow the same rules as a 'real' court). I've kicked myself many times for not seeing this through to a legal decision but my state representative asked me to let it lie and give him a chance to fix it in the legislature. We all know how well that has gone. Bottom line, they could have tried to expell me and I probably could have sued to be reinstated - in the end they shredded the paperwork and I agreed to be disarmed.
I have OCed several times on campus after I graduated. Never miss the chance.
This has gotten too long - PM me if you want more details.
I think half of the VCDL members read this board but contact them through vcdl.org anyway.
Also look up SCCC (Students for Concealed Carry on Campus) on facebook. I know the VT coordinator, Ken Stanton, kstanton@vt.edu - give him a shout.
Last and most important, GET A REAL LAWYER NOW!!!!! The state bar association has a referral service, also google for civil rights and criminal law practitionersb in your area. This will probably be very expensive to fight, but I wish I had the standing to do it again (post-massacre angst changes your perspective a bit). I'll put up some cash. Shoot, if you can make this a civil rights case the feds will cover your legal fees. If the Heller case goes the correct way it may be a slam dunk anyway.
Keep us informed please,
C.
Did you pursue it in court on a Dillon Rule argument? If not, why not and are you planning to in the future?
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Mike
Super Moderator
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 10:16 pm |
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LRS76251 wrote: However, if I understand how the law is being applied in VA on campuses correctly, it is my understanding that there are no general prohibitions for CCW holders on college campuses as far as the state code unless you are a member of the university community (faculty, student, staff).
No - there are no state code gun possession bans directed at colleges in the Code of Virginia at all.
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unrequited
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 10:37 pm |
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Mike wrote:
LRS76251 wrote: However, if I understand how the law is being applied in VA on campuses correctly, it is my understanding that there are no general prohibitions for CCW holders on college campuses as far as the state code unless you are a member of the university community (faculty, student, staff).
No - there are no state code gun possession bans directed at colleges in the Code of Virginia at all.
What about that Virginia Commonwealth University thing?
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+reg+8VAC90-10-50
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XD40coyote
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Mar 10th, 2008 01:16 am |
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Boy times sure have changed in 14 years! I wrote all sorts of disturbing things and did all sorts of disturbing art when I was in college and the worst that happened to me was being detained in the dean of students office for a few hours, and an unofficial 2 week suspension while I got some mental health help. All because the guy who lived above me was keeping me from sleeping and I was really angry and said to a teacher that if I had a gun I would do such and such in the ceramics room. Yes I did have depression, seems a common problem among artists. This was an art college and the writing prof I had was AMAZING- he actually LIKED my weird stories and poems. One day a fellow student complained about my dog begging from her ( dogs allowed in class! good thing too- Baltimore legal open carry...), so this guy tells her that he prefers dogs to some students LMAO.
Anyway, writing fiction should NEVER be grounds for such hysteria. What happened to the 1st amendment? So now they trample all over the 1st along with the 2nd. Well just for that I really need to write my Coyote and crazy pro gun stuff fiction.
Imagine if you had drawn this and that was it, would they have reacted as stupidly, or more stupidly?
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bohdi
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Mar 10th, 2008 01:33 am |
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Probably more stupidly.
capablanca911 - thanks for coming on and sharing with us. You'll find as much support as we can give in whatever way people can here I think for your cause. All give some, some give all.
I can't imagine what would have happened to me in 9th grade creative writing if I had written some of those things today. It's a fricking creative writing class! Give em both barrels, er, hell, er a good lawerly fight.....
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Tomahawk
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Mar 10th, 2008 01:41 am |
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I knew some guys in high school who used to draw short comic strips during boring classes, and the running gag was that at the end of each story one of the characters' heads would explode very graphically for no reason. It was kind of like the "you killed Kenny" gag from South Park.
It was hysterical, but I'm sure that if they did that today and got noticed they would get the third degree and the system would mercilessly try to ruin their lives and careers to cover its ass.
Leviathan has no sense of humor.
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