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jchen012
Member
| Joined: | Wed Oct 4th, 2006 |
| Location: | Bellevue, WA |
| Posts: | 46 |
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 06:17 am |
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Just saw this on the evening news... Only Fox specifically states that the doctor has a concealed permit... hmm...
http://q13.trb.com/news/kcpq-072208foiledrobbery,0,661074.story
http://www.king5.com/topstories/stories/NW_072208WAB_restaurant_robbery_KC.810a4e71.html
http://www.kirotv.com/news/16956119/detail.html
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tanman
Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 06:39 am |
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Glorious!!!
"...all power is inherent in the people...it is their right and duty to be armed at all times..." - Thomas Jefferson
Personally I would have made the jackass lay down on the ground and wait for the cops, but then again I don't believe in catch and release. Was the suspect armed?
Last edited on Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 07:17 pm by tanman
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Alwayspacking
Activist Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 12:34 pm |
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| This is what we need, more stories like this to show our society that good people carry guns too, and that there is no need to freak out when someone walks in with one on their hip.
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deepdiver
Activist Member
| Joined: | Mon Apr 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Missouri USA |
| Posts: | 3527 |
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 02:31 pm |
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Once again we see a common thread with CC holders - restraint. The CC holder didn't pull his gun and start shooting, he pulled it and continued to use the least force necessary to end the threat and control the situation. Another instance of a citizen with a firearm stopping a violent crime without firing a shot.
For every Joe Horn situation, there are literally over a million situations such as this per year where the firearm is not even fired. Joe Horn's situation was national news. This will not be. If the media reported these more common scenes of citizen with firearm and no shots fired in the national news daily the dumb masses would understand that situations such as Joe Horn are a tiny minority of firearm usage to stop criminals.
*I don't bring up Joe Horn to rehash opinions on the situation but rather because it is a recent situation with much play in the national news about which I have had numerous people on both sides of the issue comment to me about as a scenario that in their opinion, makes civilian gun owners look like loose cannons or vigilantes.*
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Bear 45/70
Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 02:40 pm |
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Alwayspacking wrote: This is what we need, more stories like this to show our society that good people carry guns too, and that there is no need to freak out when someone walks in with one on their hip.
The press normally suppresses these types of stories due to their political bias.
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Bear 45/70
Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 02:54 pm |
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deepdiver wrote: Once again we see a common thread with CC holders - restraint. The CC holder didn't pull his gun and start shooting, he pulled it and continued to use the least force necessary to end the threat and control the situation. Another instance of a citizen with a firearm stopping a violent crime without firing a shot.
For every Joe Horn situation, there are literally over a million situations such as this per year where the firearm is not even fired. Joe Horn's situation was national news. This will not be. If the media reported these more common scenes of citizen with firearm and no shots fired in the national news daily the dumb masses would understand that situations such as Joe Horn are a tiny minority of firearm usage to stop criminals.
*I don't bring up Joe Horn to rehash opinions on the situation but rather because it is a recent situation with much play in the national news about which I have had numerous people on both sides of the issue comment to me about as a scenario that in their opinion, makes civilian gun owners look like loose cannons or vigilantes.*
Drawing your weapon and assuming that you won't have to shoot is an exellent way to end up shot or dead yourself. Many bad guys don't stop when you point a gun at them. To many people believe the TV and movie crap that just drawing their weapon gives them a magic wand that everyone is under the spell of and obeys any orders given by them. That only works for sure on TV and in the movies. Doing like they do on TV and in the movies is an outstanding way to get hurt of dead. When you draw your weapon, you damn well better expect to fire your weapon and kill your target. Anything less is foolish and dangerous. If it works out that way, all the better but surely you don't want to bet your life on it.
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Alwayspacking
Activist Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 03:30 pm |
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Bear 45/70 wrote: deepdiver wrote: Once again we see a common thread with CC holders - restraint. The CC holder didn't pull his gun and start shooting, he pulled it and continued to use the least force necessary to end the threat and control the situation. Another instance of a citizen with a firearm stopping a violent crime without firing a shot.
For every Joe Horn situation, there are literally over a million situations such as this per year where the firearm is not even fired. Joe Horn's situation was national news. This will not be. If the media reported these more common scenes of citizen with firearm and no shots fired in the national news daily the dumb masses would understand that situations such as Joe Horn are a tiny minority of firearm usage to stop criminals.
*I don't bring up Joe Horn to rehash opinions on the situation but rather because it is a recent situation with much play in the national news about which I have had numerous people on both sides of the issue comment to me about as a scenario that in their opinion, makes civilian gun owners look like loose cannons or vigilantes.*
Drawing your weapon and assuming that you won't have to shoot is an exellent way to end up shot or dead yourself. Many bad guys don't stop when you point a gun at them. To many people believe the TV and movie crap that just drawing their weapon gives them a magic wand that everyone is under the spell of and obeys any orders given by them. That only works for sure on TV and in the movies. Doing like they do on TV and in the movies is an outstanding way to get hurt of dead. When you draw your weapon, you damn well better expect to fire your weapon and kill your target. Anything less is foolish and dangerous. If it works out that way, all the better but surely you don't want to bet your life on it.
I understand there are 3 types of criminals.
1. those that when they see the victim pull a gun, they will run
2. Those that will see a weapon, continue to attack, then with the slightest wound flee, or faint.
3. those who will fight no matter what, those who you have to incapacitate in order to escape.
But I hear the majority are in category one.
Last edited on Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 03:31 pm by Alwayspacking
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Bear 45/70
Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 04:11 pm |
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Alwayspacking wrote: Bear 45/70 wrote: deepdiver wrote: Once again we see a common thread with CC holders - restraint. The CC holder didn't pull his gun and start shooting, he pulled it and continued to use the least force necessary to end the threat and control the situation. Another instance of a citizen with a firearm stopping a violent crime without firing a shot.
For every Joe Horn situation, there are literally over a million situations such as this per year where the firearm is not even fired. Joe Horn's situation was national news. This will not be. If the media reported these more common scenes of citizen with firearm and no shots fired in the national news daily the dumb masses would understand that situations such as Joe Horn are a tiny minority of firearm usage to stop criminals.
*I don't bring up Joe Horn to rehash opinions on the situation but rather because it is a recent situation with much play in the national news about which I have had numerous people on both sides of the issue comment to me about as a scenario that in their opinion, makes civilian gun owners look like loose cannons or vigilantes.*
Drawing your weapon and assuming that you won't have to shoot is an exellent way to end up shot or dead yourself. Many bad guys don't stop when you point a gun at them. To many people believe the TV and movie crap that just drawing their weapon gives them a magic wand that everyone is under the spell of and obeys any orders given by them. That only works for sure on TV and in the movies. Doing like they do on TV and in the movies is an outstanding way to get hurt of dead. When you draw your weapon, you damn well better expect to fire your weapon and kill your target. Anything less is foolish and dangerous. If it works out that way, all the better but surely you don't want to bet your life on it.
I understand there are 3 types of criminals.
1. those that when they see the victim pull a gun, they will run
2. Those that will see a weapon, continue to attack, then with the slightest wound flee, or faint.
3. those who will fight no matter what, those who you have to incapacitate in order to escape.
But I hear the majority are in category one.
Agreed most criminals are cowards, however they almost all have another trait that moves type 1 and 2 into type 3s. They are substance abusers and when under the influence, nobody including them know what they will do. That's the part that gets you hurt or dead because there is no logic to how the react to a weapon.
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deepdiver
Activist Member
| Joined: | Mon Apr 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Missouri USA |
| Posts: | 3527 |
| Status: |
Offline
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 08:52 pm |
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Bear 45/70 wrote: deepdiver wrote: Once again we see a common thread with CC holders - restraint. The CC holder didn't pull his gun and start shooting, he pulled it and continued to use the least force necessary to end the threat and control the situation. Another instance of a citizen with a firearm stopping a violent crime without firing a shot.
For every Joe Horn situation, there are literally over a million situations such as this per year where the firearm is not even fired. Joe Horn's situation was national news. This will not be. If the media reported these more common scenes of citizen with firearm and no shots fired in the national news daily the dumb masses would understand that situations such as Joe Horn are a tiny minority of firearm usage to stop criminals.
*I don't bring up Joe Horn to rehash opinions on the situation but rather because it is a recent situation with much play in the national news about which I have had numerous people on both sides of the issue comment to me about as a scenario that in their opinion, makes civilian gun owners look like loose cannons or vigilantes.*
Drawing your weapon and assuming that you won't have to shoot is an exellent way to end up shot or dead yourself. Many bad guys don't stop when you point a gun at them. To many people believe the TV and movie crap that just drawing their weapon gives them a magic wand that everyone is under the spell of and obeys any orders given by them. That only works for sure on TV and in the movies. Doing like they do on TV and in the movies is an outstanding way to get hurt of dead. When you draw your weapon, you damn well better expect to fire your weapon and kill your target. Anything less is foolish and dangerous. If it works out that way, all the better but surely you don't want to bet your life on it. While I do not disagree with your comments, I do not understand 1) why you quoted my post when making your point or 2) what your point has to do with this thread.
I assume it is reference to "The CC holder didn't pull his gun and start shooting..." I in no way intended that to mean that he wasn't prepared and able to shoot as I very much hope that if he was threatening lethal force we was damned well prepared to use it. I was trying to say, perhaps ineloquently, that LAC with guns do not just automatically start shooting whenever they can legally. They tend to use extraordinary restraint, evaluate the situation, and only use as much force as is necessary to end the threat and in 99% of violent crime situations, simply drawing the firearm accomplishes this. Several stories from our members bear out the fact of this restraint.
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Bear 45/70
Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 11:41 pm |
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deepdiver wrote: Bear 45/70 wrote: deepdiver wrote: Once again we see a common thread with CC holders - restraint. The CC holder didn't pull his gun and start shooting, he pulled it and continued to use the least force necessary to end the threat and control the situation. Another instance of a citizen with a firearm stopping a violent crime without firing a shot.
For every Joe Horn situation, there are literally over a million situations such as this per year where the firearm is not even fired. Joe Horn's situation was national news. This will not be. If the media reported these more common scenes of citizen with firearm and no shots fired in the national news daily the dumb masses would understand that situations such as Joe Horn are a tiny minority of firearm usage to stop criminals.
*I don't bring up Joe Horn to rehash opinions on the situation but rather because it is a recent situation with much play in the national news about which I have had numerous people on both sides of the issue comment to me about as a scenario that in their opinion, makes civilian gun owners look like loose cannons or vigilantes.*
Drawing your weapon and assuming that you won't have to shoot is an exellent way to end up shot or dead yourself. Many bad guys don't stop when you point a gun at them. To many people believe the TV and movie crap that just drawing their weapon gives them a magic wand that everyone is under the spell of and obeys any orders given by them. That only works for sure on TV and in the movies. Doing like they do on TV and in the movies is an outstanding way to get hurt of dead. When you draw your weapon, you damn well better expect to fire your weapon and kill your target. Anything less is foolish and dangerous. If it works out that way, all the better but surely you don't want to bet your life on it. While I do not disagree with your comments, I do not understand 1) why you quoted my post when making your point or 2) what your point has to do with this thread.
I assume it is reference to "The CC holder didn't pull his gun and start shooting..." I in no way intended that to mean that he wasn't prepared and able to shoot as I very much hope that if he was threatening lethal force we was damned well prepared to use it. I was trying to say, perhaps ineloquently, that LAC with guns do not just automatically start shooting whenever they can legally. They tend to use extraordinary restraint, evaluate the situation, and only use as much force as is necessary to end the threat and in 99% of violent crime situations, simply drawing the firearm accomplishes this. Several stories from our members bear out the fact of this restraint.
I myself have had two incidents where just drawing the firearm defused the situation. The third required a trigger pull and fortunately, at my young age at the time, the adreniln pump shakes made me miss. The bad guy wet himself and ceased advancing on me and surrendered. But like I said, if you draw you must absolutely be prepare to shoot to kill.
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DEROS72
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 01:36 am |
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| I agree .I would have held him on the floor auntill the cops arrive.Alaso would have advised whoever was talking with the police to advise them that a citizen had the badguy at gunpoint.To reduce any margin for error.I also agee as learned in Vietnam when the weapon is drawn you best be able to shoot.I to have had experieces that having one out did not totally difuse the situation...
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tanman
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 07:18 am |
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| Yet another incident justifiying citizen's arrest...if the guy is cuffed and you're holstered when the cops show up there is much less chance of error for everyone.
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sv_libertarian
State Researcher
| Joined: | Wed Aug 15th, 2007 |
| Location: | Olympia, WA |
| Posts: | 1893 |
| Status: |
Offline
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 07:24 am |
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tanman wrote: Yet another incident justifiying citizen's arrest...if the guy is cuffed and you're holstered when the cops show up there is much less chance of error for everyone. You gonna carry cuffs around too? And a partner to help you cuff a person? And the training to use cuffs? And accept the liability of cuffing someone?
I'd just hold 'em for the cops, or let 'em run away if it came to that.
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sean-1286
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 09:59 am |
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tanman wrote: Yet another incident justifiying citizen's arrest...if the guy is cuffed and you're holstered when the cops show up there is much less chance of error for everyone.
I'm not sure where you see that citizen's arrest is unlawful. RCW 9A.15.20 specifically states that
The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases: ... (2) Whenever necessarily used by a person arresting one who has committed a felony and delivering him or her to a public officer competent to receive him or her into custody;
That law is essentially what a citizen's arrest is. Use of handcuffs would be a use of force, and would be justified if it met the requirements above. Also, arrest does not mean the suspect has to be cuffed. Even holding the suspect at gunpoint is shading on arrest, and is at least detainment, a deprivation of liberty.
Also, see the attached file prepared for security guards, who have no greater power of arrest than any other citizen other than slightly more authority to detain shoplifters for misdemeanor crimes with the correct degree of suspicion.
Attachment: citizenarrest1.pdf (Downloaded 14 times)
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Metal_Monkey
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 10:19 am |
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| Bottom line....never pull a weapon unless you intend to use it. Sometimes it can defuse a situation others it will prevoke a person. With that said even if it is to defuse, be prepaired to use it. Don't use it to threaten when you could simply "tackle" or stop them first. This is one thing I like about open carry, if someone attacks you and they see you have a firearm or means to protect yourself and still procede, it makes it more justified in the eyes of the law. At the same time you also look like your in the wild west. My opinion is just use good judgement. Some people will stop at nothing.
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DEROS72
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 11:36 am |
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| I see the point.If you are holstered when the police arrive there should be no problem.There have also been incidents when the good guy with the gun was mistaken for the bad guy.Good advice,the point is to difuse the situation.Holding him or just letting him run off for the cops to catch later.Still by that doc having a gun with him was able to take control of a possibly dangerous senario.That because of his actions did not spin out of control.I noticed also that a couple of the news reports neglected to mention this doc.was lawfully carrying his weapon.
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gsx1138
Member
| Joined: | Wed May 14th, 2008 |
| Location: | Bremerton, Wa |
| Posts: | 143 |
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Offline
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 04:20 pm |
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I wonder what doctor it was. I work at TG and we have a few exmilitary doc's. Most of whom would seem the type to carry.
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tanman
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 10:04 pm |
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sean-1286 wrote: tanman wrote: Yet another incident justifiying citizen's arrest...if the guy is cuffed and you're holstered when the cops show up there is much less chance of error for everyone.
sean-1286: I'm not sure where you see that citizen's arrest is unlawful. RCW 9A.15.20 specifically states that:
sean-1286: The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases: ... (2) Whenever necessarily used by a person arresting one who has committed a felony and delivering him or her to a public officer competent to receive him or her into custody;
That dog won't hunt- RCW 9A.15.20 (actually the whole 9A.15 section isn't there) doesn't exist at least online. So maybe it got repealed, or you had a slip of the finger? Please let me know if it was the latter, cause that section would be about the only defense to;
RCW 9A.40.040
Unlawful imprisonment.
(1) A person is guilty of unlawful imprisonment if he knowingly restrains another person.
(2) Unlawful imprisonment is a class C felony.
Last edited on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 10:05 pm by tanman
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tanman
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 10:07 pm |
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Found it- it's;
RCW 9A.16.020
Use of force — When lawful
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sean-1286
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 11:15 pm |
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tanman wrote: Found it- it's;
RCW 9A.16.020
Use of force — When lawful
Sorry about that, just a typo. So what is your interpretation now? Mine is that RCW 9A.16 contains defenses to any crimes in the chapter and that means that if one's actions meet the critera in 9A.16.020, they would have an affirmative defense to prosecution for unlawful imprisonment. This is supported further by the attatchment to my previous post.
Personally, although I believe it would be legal, I would not attempt to cuff a suspect or otherwise restrain him/her unless it was absolutely necessary, and hopefully I would have a partner who could help out. I would hold them at gun point, or preferably just use my verbal kung fu, until the police arrived. If s/he runs off and isn't posing a threat--oh well, I have a description for the police and everyone is still safe.
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