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Metal_Monkey
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 04:40 am |
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Ok let me tell you this first off. I was going to court in Seattle for a driving infraction, nothing more. I started off by going in and before going through the metal detecters I approched the King County Sherrif I need a lock box for my pistol. He asked me if I had a CPL (Concieled Pistol License), I did. Gave him that and my ID. He asked me if that was my address I said yes. He did not run my name or anything, just called for an officer to escort me to the back room to check it in. All was well. I asked the officer how they would deal with someone open carring and he said it is legal, but if someone gets scared they can and will arrest you...I kept my mouth shut (seeing how I have a big mouth sometimes lol). He had me sighn my name on some paper work, model of my gun, and lock box number.
After court I came downstairs to get my pistol. Another officer came down to walk me back again. He brings me to there and hands me my pistol. Also while handing my pistol he hands it to me with the barrell pointed towards me and my fionce. (yeah a King County Officer) Then I sighn my name stating I have recieved my pistol he looks at me and tells me,"Next time it would probably be a good idea if you don't bring this in here next time." He escorted me out the door and I was on my way.
I am from Lake Stevens, Everett, and Lynwood area. If anyone knows these places it is not nearly as bad as seattle crime wise. Personally I see me needing my TOOL in Seattle and my home more than anywhere else. For an officer of the law to tell me I shouldn't protect myself AFTER handing me a loaded pistol(yes one in the chamber) with the barrel POINTED at US, just boggles my mind. Trained officers? Btw I have a Ruger P90 with that great safety that disengages the trigger and Isn't cocked back. Safer than most 1911's I feel, but still pointing at anything other than the ground is like the #1 safety rule.
Just thought this was a food for thought story. Giving people a peice of mind on how some law enforcement officers are in Seattle. I could only imagine what it would be like if I came in there open carried...
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Bear 45/70
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 04:48 am |
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Metal_Monkey wrote: Ok let me tell you this first off. I was going to court in Seattle for a driving infraction, nothing more. I started off by going in and before going through the metal detecters I approched the King County Sherrif I need a lock box for my pistol. He asked me if I had a CPL (Concieled Pistol License), I did. Gave him that and my ID. He asked me if that was my address I said yes. He did not run my name or anything, just called for an officer to escort me to the back room to check it in. All was well. I asked the officer how they would deal with someone open carring and he said it is legal, but if someone gets scared they can and will arrest you...I kept my mouth shut (seeing how I have a big mouth sometimes lol). He had me sighn my name on some paper work, model of my gun, and lock box number.
After court I came downstairs to get my pistol. Another officer came down to walk me back again. He brings me to there and hands me my pistol. Also while handing my pistol he hands it to me with the barrell pointed towards me and my fionce. (yeah a King County Officer) Then I sighn my name stating I have recieved my pistol he looks at me and tells me,"Next time it would probably be a good idea if you don't bring this in here next time." He escorted me out the door and I was on my way.
I am from Lake Stevens, Everett, and Lynwood area. If anyone knows these places it is not nearly as bad as seattle crime wise. Personally I see me needing my TOOL in Seattle and my home more than anywhere else. For an officer of the law to tell me I shouldn't protect myself AFTER handing me a loaded pistol(yes one in the chamber) with the barrel POINTED at US, just boggles my mind. Trained officers? Btw I have a Ruger P90 with that great safety that disengages the trigger and Isn't cocked back. Safer than most 1911's I feel, but still pointing at anything other than the ground is like the #1 safety rule.
Just thought this was a food for thought story. Giving people a peice of mind on how some law enforcement officers are in Seattle. I could only imagine what it would be like if I came in there open carried...
That definately needs a complaint to the King County Sheriff's Office. Totally unproffessional and dangerous. Besides that both cops were out of line, their personal opinions should be kept to themselves.
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sv_libertarian
State Researcher
| Joined: | Wed Aug 15th, 2007 |
| Location: | Olympia, WA |
| Posts: | 1915 |
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Offline
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 04:53 am |
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+1 to Bear. I try to be civil but I'm getting real dang tired of LEO's letting their opinions get in the way of the law. There are plenty who don't. It's the ones who do that make it tough on the rest of 'em.
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M1Gunr
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 05:43 am |
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Then I sign my name stating I have received my pistol he looks at me and tells me,"Next time it would probably be a good idea if you don't bring this in here next time." He escorted me out the door and I was on my way.
Officer is this county policy or your personal opinion? Probally next time I'll carry two just for giggles.
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Metal_Monkey
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 06:56 am |
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M1Gunr wrote: Then I sign my name stating I have received my pistol he looks at me and tells me,"Next time it would probably be a good idea if you don't bring this in here next time." He escorted me out the door and I was on my way.
Officer is this county policy or your personal opinion? Probally next time I'll carry two just for giggles.
Lol I could only image if the wifey had one and a backup with me having a back up as well. 
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911Boss
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 07:25 am |
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| I'm glad I don't work in the Courthouse anymore, checking the gun was a PITA and I am a fricken employee!
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PavePusher
Member
| Joined: | Thu Apr 26th, 2007 |
| Location: | Tucson, Arizona USA |
| Posts: | 425 |
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Offline
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 08:52 am |
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Metal_Monkey wrote: Ok let me tell you this first off. I was going to court in Seattle for a driving infraction, nothing more. I started off by going in and before going through the metal detecters I approched the King County Sherrif I need a lock box for my pistol. He asked me if I had a CPL (Concieled Pistol License), I did. Gave him that and my ID. He asked me if that was my address I said yes. He did not run my name or anything, just called for an officer to escort me to the back room to check it in. All was well. I asked the officer how they would deal with someone open carring and he said it is legal, but if someone gets scared they can and will arrest you...I kept my mouth shut (seeing how I have a big mouth sometimes lol). He had me sighn my name on some paper work, model of my gun, and lock box number.
After court I came downstairs to get my pistol. Another officer came down to walk me back again. He brings me to there and hands me my pistol. Also while handing my pistol he hands it to me with the barrell pointed towards me and my fionce. (yeah a King County Officer) Then I sighn my name stating I have recieved my pistol he looks at me and tells me,"Next time it would probably be a good idea if you don't bring this in here next time." He escorted me out the door and I was on my way.
I am from Lake Stevens, Everett, and Lynwood area. If anyone knows these places it is not nearly as bad as seattle crime wise. Personally I see me needing my TOOL in Seattle and my home more than anywhere else. For an officer of the law to tell me I shouldn't protect myself AFTER handing me a loaded pistol(yes one in the chamber) with the barrel POINTED at US, just boggles my mind. Trained officers? Btw I have a Ruger P90 with that great safety that disengages the trigger and Isn't cocked back. Safer than most 1911's I feel, but still pointing at anything other than the ground is like the #1 safety rule.
Just thought this was a food for thought story. Giving people a peice of mind on how some law enforcement officers are in Seattle. I could only imagine what it would be like if I came in there open carried...
Next time, ask for their opinion/order in writing with reference to the appropriate law/statute. (Old military trick.) Most of the time they will shut up very quickly... On a side note, can you carry your voice recorder into the courthouse in Washington?
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Gene Beasley
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 09:08 am |
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Similar event happened to me in April. I wrote it up in case I needed it, but never pursued it beyond what appears below. I wrote this up after the event and after the phone call to the court security supervisor. None of this was recorded. Sorry - it's long.
On 04/30, it was a nice day; I had to pay my property taxes and decided to make a day of it. Off to the park & ride I go! No problem OC'ing at the transit center, on the bus, or in the bus tunnel (private security and all).
At the King County Courthouse, I approached the screening area and indicated to the attendant the need to check a firearm (pointing to my belt and saying “need to check this”). She motioned me through to the officer at the check-desk. He asked for my CPL and DL (which surprised me, but I had business to get done). He then looks at my hip and (gee, can’t see this coming, can you) and the following conversation ensued (from memory):
Dpty Curt: “Why are you carrying like that?”
Me: “Like what?”
DC: “Why don’t you have a coat over it?”
Me: “I always open carry. You’re aware that it’s legal, right”
During this time, his attention is split between talking into his lapel-mic for an escort officer and me.
DC: “Until someone sees it and becomes alarmed, then you’re in big trouble.”
At the point, Deputy Erickson arrived. He was nothing but polite and professional. He led me to the secure lock-up area. He showed me the box, had me take the key while he filled out a check-in sheet with the details from my CPL and DL. I then had to go back through screening, the new deputy at the check-desk took my key and I kept my CPL and DL.
I finished my business with the revenue office, retrieved my gun, thanking Deputy Erickson and left after getting the name of the other deputy. It was Curt F-something, which I can’t recall.
I spent the next hour or two walking around Pioneer Square, had lunch, and walked strong-side past two KCSO deputies on bikes (not sure why they would be in Pioneer Square, but their jackets said SHERIFF. The bus ride home was also without incident.
Greg Webb is in charge of the Court Security Division. He was out of the office until May 6.
I recounted the above conversation. My main question to him was if this is what I could expect each time I came to the courthouse. Webb indicated what took place was proper. I told him that I thought Deputy Curt’s understanding of 9.41.270 in light of case law was lacking; that I had done my research on the pertinent RCW’s and case law and the key word was warrants alarm, not causes alarm. Webb said that my interpretation and the officer’s interpretation of the RCW’s and case law were subject to our own interpretation; that there was the letter of the law and the intent of the law. He made some bizarre comparison of causing alarm and indecent exposure. That he couldn’t arrest me for indecent exposure for taking a leak against the side of a building, but if I did it in front of a lady with kids, that would be a different matter. To be honest, at this point I was fairly flabbergasted by his response. He really had me at a loss for words.
He continued with, “If I were walking the streets of downtown Seattle, open-carrying like that, I would likely be arrested.” I told him I didn’t think that was likely, as I had read the TB for SPD and it was clear that a holstered gun, in and of itself would not even be grounds for a Terry Stop absent articuable suspicion that I had committed or was about to commit a crime. He talked about the crazy people out there, which is probably why I carry, and it would just be a lot easier if I would conceal. It all depended on how much I wanted to put up with.
I had worked a 12-hour night shift stayed up until 0900 to talk to him and was not in the mood to press any of this with him. It was obvious that talking to him on the phone was not going to change his mind. I asked one last question. Since I was open carrying and had taken the bus, there was no legal reason why I would have to have my CPL or DL with me. Again, he fell back to “you do what you have to do, just don’t be surprised, I might not be able to get my business done.” I wasn’t recording any of this, so this is from memory, though I wrote most of this up right after our conversation.
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Metal_Monkey
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 09:37 am |
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| Well this is somewhat what I am going to do and I would love any suggestions! I do have another court date within this next month. I am debating going OC or CC. Ironically if I do carry OC you can not miss a Stainless Ruger 45, yet if I cc it it looks like I injected steroids into my arse or my ...ouch... I don't want to carry open to provoke anything, but I almost want to use myself as an example. Not that I wanna get in trouble, but I am one to express my rights as an American citizen. Unfotunately I did not get the names of these officers because I was in a hurry (gotta love the traffic). This next time I garantee my girl will have a pad and pen ready and I will have a recorder on me, but ..and I say BUT, I have heard from a few people I know that and have seen, sometimes they will MAKE you leave recorders at the desk (for bomb reasons!!!???). I know they can not do this, but guess what..they HAVE. In my case I have a cell phone that records. So I can still do this and will attemp to do so. I am only 24 so some of these new laws are new to me, so please bare with me. I grew up shooting guns(in a safe manner) since I can remember, even before the gun ban clinton put in place. Now a few things are just unclear to me. I am nothing more than a law abiding citizen and just want to protect myself and my family, even though it seems I need to protect myself more from the law. I hate being looked or treated as a major conviced when I am just in a place for a simple driving infraction. So with that said. Again, any advice or suggestions are welcome. I would like to do the lawfull thing, but still stand my ground. Thank you to all that read this.
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Bear 45/70
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 03:33 pm |
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| Since when is the letter and intent of the law left up to the individual officer? Not much anymore, that's the reason for training and training bulletins. Gene, both the deputy anf his supervisor are full of crap. You should have taken this higher up as the deputies showed total lack of knowledge of the law and were using the color of law to enforce their personnel beliefs. illegally.
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sv_libertarian
State Researcher
| Joined: | Wed Aug 15th, 2007 |
| Location: | Olympia, WA |
| Posts: | 1915 |
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 03:39 pm |
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JAC, you will usually see KCSD deputies patrolling near a bus stop or going to one as they are the primary agency for King County Metro. Although sometimes you will see SPD driving a KCSD car, that is because in that case KCSD has provided the vehicle, and SPD has provided the officer for transit policing.
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David.Car
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 03:41 pm |
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Bear 45/70 wrote: Since when is the letter and intent of the law left up to the individual officer? Not much anymore, that's the reason for training and training bulletins. Gene, both the deputy anf his supervisor are full of crap. You should have taken this higher up as the deputies showed total lack of knowledge of the law and were using the color of law to enforce their personnel beliefs. illegally.
Agreed. After he said the law was open to the interpretation of the officer, I would have moved to his supervisor.
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911Boss
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 06:54 pm |
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Minor point here, but I would just like to note that the folks doing the Courthouse security, while employees of the Sheriff's Office, have a "special" limited commision. They are separate from the regular street deputies.
Requirements are different, and many are former cops who for whatever reason quit being cops. I don't know what training they get compared to the regular deputies, but I would bet it isn't as frequent or consistent. Many may just be remembering how it was in their glory days.
Not an excuse, just hoping to kepp the rest of KCSO from being lumped in with the Court Security guys...
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44Brent
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| Joined: | Sun May 21st, 2006 |
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| Posts: | 398 |
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 08:17 pm |
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Since I was open carrying and had taken the bus, there was no legal reason why I would have to have my CPL or DL with me.
It is illegal to carry concealed or openly on a bus without a CPL.
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Gene Beasley
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 08:31 pm |
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44Brent wrote: Since I was open carrying and had taken the bus, there was no legal reason why I would have to have my CPL or DL with me.
It is illegal to carry concealed or openly on a bus without a CPL.
True, but for the sake of argument, say I got to the courthouse without a vehicle - and without those items; what backing do they have for requesting them?
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just_a_car
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 09:22 pm |
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sv_libertarian wrote: JAC, you will usually see KCSD deputies patrolling near a bus stop or going to one as they are the primary agency for King County Metro. Although sometimes you will see SPD driving a KCSD car, that is because in that case KCSD has provided the vehicle, and SPD has provided the officer for transit policing.
Steve, you're losing it. I haven't responded to this thread until now.
You may be confusing me with Gene due to a similar avatar.
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M1Gunr
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 09:59 pm |
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And it would just be a lot easier if I would conceal.
It would be even easier if I could carry a cop with me 24x7.
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Gene Beasley
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 11:19 pm |
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 At the risk of veering this thread off coarse - 68 GTOLast edited on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 11:21 pm by Gene Beasley
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just_a_car
Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 25th, 2008 12:39 am |
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1972 Mustang Mach1
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sv_libertarian
State Researcher
| Joined: | Wed Aug 15th, 2007 |
| Location: | Olympia, WA |
| Posts: | 1915 |
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Posted: Fri Jul 25th, 2008 03:37 am |
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just_a_car wrote: Steve, you're losing it. I haven't responded to this thread until now.
You may be confusing me with Gene due to a similar avatar.
Blast you guys and your car avatars! Not nice to do to a fellow when he is groggy and his tea water is still heating. 
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