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NavyLT
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Apr 1st, 2009 03:18 pm |
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So, I was in Island Cafe from about 5:15 to 6:15 last night, minding my own business, eating alone. The food was great and the service was excellent. About 5:50 I see the waitress peek around the corner and look into our eating area. I figure she is just checking to see if drinks are full or something. About 5 minutes later a police car comes into the parking lot. And I think, "Here it comes."
Cop walks in and by me, then I get the tap on the shoulder, "Can you come with me?" "Sure"
Outside he asked if I was LEO. No.
Do you have a Concealed Pistol License. Yes.
Can I see it? Why?
Because you are required to show it to me. Why?
Because the law says you have to show it to me.
I am not required to show you my concealed pistol license because I am not carrying a concealed weapon.
Can I see it anyway? I guess. (Give him license)
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Can I see real ID? (Give him Military ID) - big mistake, won't do that one again.
You are making people nervous and they are freaking out. OK?.....
Why don't you conceal your firearm? Because I am not required to.
Well people are freaking out. OK?.....
You could lose this (holding up CPL). For what? I am not doing anything illegal.
They are easy to take away. I am not doing anything illegal.
I wish you wouldn't give me an attitude. I am not giving you an attitude.
Well you are scaring people...
What if I just had orange hair...
(he interrupts) I wish you wouldn't give me an attitude.
Look, if I am breaking any law, just write me a citation, am I being detained? If they (motioning towards Island Cafe) ask me to leave, I will leave. They have not asked me to leave.
I would expect more from a lieutenant.
(I wish I would have been able to think more clearly, because I would have responded with, "Oh, you mean for me not to be upholding my oath to support and defend the Constitution?")
Instead I just repeated, am I being detained? If they ask me to leave, I will leave.
Writes down my name and SSN (dang military ID card), and gives me back everything. "Just go back inside."
I go back in and sit down and take a drink and another bite of steak. Cop comes back.
Do you want a to go box? Waitress behind him hands me the check.
Nope. I give her $20 tell her to keep the change and get ready to leave.
You can get a to go box. Nope, I was done anyway.
I walk out, get in my car and leave.
Also, during the conversation, two other police cars show up, so now we have three in the parking lot. To his credit, he KNEW I wasn't doing anything illegal. He did not ask to disarm me. I walked away with my gun carried as usual.
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adamsesq
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Posted: Wed Apr 1st, 2009 03:26 pm |
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You did well Lt. Althought I think I would have stayed and finished my meal.
As to military ID, yah, keep it in the pocket. I have seen too many stories about these kind of situations getting back to a CO and then internal channels causing havoc with you. Guy in Ohio ended up being charged internally under UCMJ after a similar incident to yours - even though he was not arrested or charged with anything by local LEO.
-adamsesq
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NavyLT
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Apr 1st, 2009 03:42 pm |
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adamsesq wrote: You did well Lt. Althought I think I would have stayed and finished my meal.
As to military ID, yah, keep it in the pocket. I have seen too many stories about these kind of situations getting back to a CO and then internal channels causing havoc with you. Guy in Ohio ended up being charged internally under UCMJ after a similar incident to yours - even though he was not arrested or charged with anything by local LEO.
-adamsesq
I couldn't have stayed and finished, because they (management, via the cop) asked me to leave.
+1 about the ID card. I already have my statement to the CO rehearsed in my head if it comes to that. "I am sworn to support and defend the Constitution. What part of exercising a right that is protected by the Constitution, that is under attack and has already been taken away in many states is not upholding that oath?"
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compmanio365
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Apr 1st, 2009 03:46 pm |
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| I didn't see anything in your story that showed they asked you to leave. I would have stayed and finished my meal. I actually wouldn't have gotten up in the first place and would have immediately asked for the officer's SGT in regards to how he felt it was appropriate to lay hands on you when you've done nothing wrong.
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NavyLT
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Apr 1st, 2009 03:58 pm |
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compmanio365 wrote: I didn't see anything in your story that showed they asked you to leave. I would have stayed and finished my meal. I actually wouldn't have gotten up in the first place and would have immediately asked for the officer's SGT in regards to how he felt it was appropriate to lay hands on you when you've done nothing wrong.
When the officer came back and asked me if I wanted to a to go box with the waitress in tow, I figured that was being asked to leave.
My goal in carrying is not to make a scene or a big deal about it. To me a tap on the shoulder is not the laying on of hands :-)
I am going to get a Washington ID Card and I would suggest any military stationed in WA to do so as well. We don't have to give up our home driver's licenses (neither do spouses either), and WA will issue a state ID card without removing your home state driver's license for active duty and spouses. This makes it easier to purchase firearms in WA and also gives you something other than an out of state DL or a mil ID card to the man.
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David.Car
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Apr 1st, 2009 04:41 pm |
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compmanio365 wrote: I actually wouldn't have gotten up in the first place
+1.
First response when asked to come outside would be "what is this regarding officer" and from there he would have no ground to do anything except act on behalf of the establishment if they wanted you to leave. In that case I would leave after only paying for what I was able to finish, and would just not ever return to that place of business.
Never would have gone outside, and wouldn't have provided a drivers license or military ID as it is not neccesary in that situation. I would give him my name and DOB if he wanted, thats about it.
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compmanio365
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Apr 1st, 2009 04:42 pm |
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Well, to each their own. I definitely understand about not wanting to cause a scene, but I'm a pretty vicious person when I feel I've been wronged. 
My point would be to make sure that officer understood that you can't go around laying hands on a citizen, in ANY manner, unless you have justification for doing so. If I did the same to that officer, I'd most likely be laid out in cuffs. Why should it be any different for an officer? And the point is that he is out there to enforce the LAW, not his opinion. If it takes a threat of legal action to get that point across, so be it.
Not saying you did anything wrong, but my feeling is that the officer now is off and gone, ready to harass the next LAC he sees that just happens to have the audacity to carry openly in HIS jurisdiction. I am a big fan of forcing a change from that attitude at the earliest opportunity.
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tat2ed_guy
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Apr 1st, 2009 04:49 pm |
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I think Im going to go and get a Washington ID now....
Good story. I would have probably broken his finger though. I have a real problem with people touching me for no reason.
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Phssthpok
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Posted: Wed Apr 1st, 2009 04:49 pm |
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Maybe I'm just fed up with cops flexing their 'authoritah' too much, But my responses probably would have been something along the lines of:
Cop walks in and by me, then I get the tap on the shoulder, "Can you come with me?" "Am I under arrest?" (alternate response (In a clear, carrying voice): "No thanks... if you're going to violate my rights I'd rather it be done in full view of the other restaurant patrons so I have witnesses to your illegal activities!")
Outside he asked if I was LEO. What does that have to do with anything?
Do you have a Concealed Pistol License. Don't need one.
Can I see it? No.
Because you are required to show it to me. Not unless I'm carrying concealed, which you can plainly see I am not.
Because the law says you have to show it to me.
Prove it. Show me the text of the law that say i need to show you a valid CPL when OPEN carrying a sidearm.
Can I see it anyway? I told you... no.
Can I see real ID? Am I under arrest? (being detained?)
You are making people nervous and they are freaking out. I have no control over peoples reactions to an inanimate object.
Why don't you conceal your firearm? Because I am not required to. (WINNAR!!)
Well people are freaking out. I have no control over peoples reactions to an inanimate object.
You could lose this (holding up CPL). For what? I am not doing anything illegal.
They are easy to take away. I am not doing anything illegal.
I wish you wouldn't give me an attitude. Do unto others...
Well you are scaring people...
*I* am scaring people? With what.. my eating habits? Again...I have no control over peoples reactions to an inanimate object.
(he interrupts) I wish you wouldn't give me an attitude.
Again... do unto other as you would have them do unto you... I only give people the same attitude they give me.
I would expect more from a lieutenant. And I would expect a LEO wouldn't be so willing to blatantly violate Washington's Constitution, and Coercion statute*...that's a CRIME you know.
(I wish I would have been able to think more clearly, because I would have responded with, "Oh, you mean for me not to be upholding my oath to support and defend the Constitution?")
Instead I just repeated, am I being detained?
Writes down my name and SSN (dang military ID card), and gives me back everything. (NEVER voluntairily surrender ID... or ANY information for that matter) "Just go back inside."
I go back in and sit down and take a drink and another bite of steak. Cop comes back.
Do you want a to go box? Waitress behind him hands me the check. No thanks... I'm not quite finished yet.
I give her $20 tell her to keep the change. (Ive been presented and paid checks in the past before was ready to leave.)
You can get a to go box. No thanks... I'm not quite finished yet. (untill such time as I am expressly invited to depart, or I finish my meal to MY satisfaction, I will continue my my lawfull presence.)
*RCW 9A.36.070Coercion.
(1) A person is guilty of coercion if by use of a threat he compels or induces a person to engage in conduct which the latter has a legal right to abstain from, or to abstain from conduct which he has a legal right to engage in.
(2) "Threat" as used in this section means:
(a) To communicate, directly or indirectly, the intent immediately to use force against any person who is present at the time; or
(b) Threats as defined in *RCW 9A.04.110(25) (a), (b), or (c).
(3) Coercion is a gross misdemeanor.
Last edited on Wed Apr 1st, 2009 04:53 pm by Phssthpok
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NavyLT
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Apr 1st, 2009 05:01 pm |
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*RCW 9A.36.070Coercion.
(1) A person is guilty of coercion if by use of a threat he compels or induces a person to engage in conduct which the latter has a legal right to abstain from, or to abstain from conduct which he has a legal right to engage in.
(2) "Threat" as used in this section means:
(a) To communicate, directly or indirectly, the intent immediately to use force against any person who is present at the time; or
(b) Threats as defined in *RCW 9A.04.110(25) (a), (b), or (c).
(3) Coercion is a gross misdemeanor.
Oh, WOW! That is beautiful. I am going to forward that info to the city of Oak Harbor and Island County as well - seems to me like their unlawful statutes regarding carrying weapons in parks fits the exact definition of coercion. BTW, the definition of threat has been ammended since 9a.36.070 was written:
(27) "Threat" means to communicate, directly or indirectly the intent:
(a) To cause bodily injury in the future to the person threatened or to any other person; or
(b) To cause physical damage to the property of a person other than the actor; or
(c) To subject the person threatened or any other person to physical confinement or restraint; or
(d) To accuse any person of a crime or cause criminal charges to be instituted against any person; or
(e) To expose a secret or publicize an asserted fact, whether true or false, tending to subject any person to hatred, contempt, or ridicule; or
(f) To reveal any information sought to be concealed by the person threatened; or
(g) To testify or provide information or withhold testimony or information with respect to another's legal claim or defense; or
(h) To take wrongful action as an official against anyone or anything, or wrongfully withhold official action, or cause such action or withholding; or
(i) To bring about or continue a strike, boycott, or other similar collective action to obtain property which is not demanded or received for the benefit of the group which the actor purports to represent; or
(j) To do any other act which is intended to harm substantially the person threatened or another with respect to his health, safety, business, financial condition, or personal relationships;
And possibly even (e) might apply in some cases.
Last edited on Wed Apr 1st, 2009 05:04 pm by NavyLT
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heresolong
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| Location: | Blaine, WA |
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Posted: Wed Apr 1st, 2009 05:32 pm |
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Yeah, to me the biggest thing here that I will take away is the leaving part. You were not actually asked to leave so I wouldn't have. Make them do the work. Would you like a to go box? No, I am going to finish my dinner here so I won't need a box. At that point make them say "the manager wants you to leave". Otherwise you have complied with something they never asked. I also am not sure that you are under any obligation to pay for your meal if they don't let you eat it. Had they told you ahead of time that your order would be take out, that would have been a different issue.
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Nitrox314
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Apr 1st, 2009 06:05 pm |
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Hey LT,
Guess its time to start hitting up the BBQ pit now huh? What unit are you with on base?I was a NMCI Rep a year ago... Moved on though.
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nakedshoplifter
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Apr 1st, 2009 06:37 pm |
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NavyLT wrote: You could lose this (holding up CPL). For what? I am not doing anything illegal.
Ohh really? Well officer... go ahead and TAKE IT then. I will gladly OPEN CARRY EVERYWHERE, as OPEN CARRY will be the ONLY way I can carry a gun if my CPL is revoked.
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NavyLT
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Apr 1st, 2009 06:40 pm |
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UPDATE! Island Cafe called me this morning. The owner/manager not sure which, expressed a sincere apology about the incident last night. She said the cafe did not call the police and that it was not their intention to have me leave. She said they absolutely support our right to carry and that I, my family, and my friends are welcome to return anytime, with our firearms!
Now to see about pursuing the unlawful removal of the property by the police....
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esstac
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Apr 1st, 2009 06:54 pm |
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WOW 
Thats a Biz who is welcome to my $$
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heresolong
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Posted: Wed Apr 1st, 2009 07:04 pm |
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NavyLT wrote: UPDATE! Island Cafe called me this morning. The owner/manager not sure which, expressed a sincere apology about the incident last night. She said the cafe did not call the police and that it was not their intention to have me leave. She said they absolutely support our right to carry and that I, my family, and my friends are welcome to return anytime, with our firearms!
Now to see about pursuing the unlawful removal of the property by the police....
That is great! I would file an internal affairs complaint with the OHPD. They acted unlawfully, they are guilty of a federal USC1983 civil rights violation, they acted under "color of law" to intimidate you into leaving a business in which you were lawfully present. This is outrageous and you should have the complaint filed immediately.
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NavyLT
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Apr 1st, 2009 07:08 pm |
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heresolong wrote: NavyLT wrote: UPDATE! Island Cafe called me this morning. The owner/manager not sure which, expressed a sincere apology about the incident last night. She said the cafe did not call the police and that it was not their intention to have me leave. She said they absolutely support our right to carry and that I, my family, and my friends are welcome to return anytime, with our firearms!
Now to see about pursuing the unlawful removal of the property by the police....
That is great! I would file an internal affairs complaint with the OHPD. They acted unlawfully, they are guilty of a federal USC1983 civil rights violation, they acted under "color of law" to intimidate you into leaving a business in which you were lawfully present. This is outrageous and you should have the complaint filed immediately.
Chief Wallace just read the email I sent him. I requested read receipt on it.
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Venator
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Apr 1st, 2009 07:17 pm |
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Phssthpok wrote:
Outside he asked if I was LEO. What does that have to do with anything?
I like to answer this question with "What does my profession have to do with all this?" It works well for the "Are you a lawyer?" question. Keeps them guessing.
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Phssthpok
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Posted: Wed Apr 1st, 2009 08:00 pm |
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NavyLT wrote: UPDATE! Island Cafe called me this morning. The owner/manager not sure which, expressed a sincere apology about the incident last night. She said the cafe did not call the police and that it was not their intention to have me leave. She said they absolutely support our right to carry and that I, my family, and my friends are welcome to return anytime, with our firearms!
Now to see about pursuing the unlawful removal of the property by the police....
Two questions:
1: How did they come to have your phone number? (just curious)
2: Did you get the impression they would be willing to testify that the officer acted on his own and DID NOT in anyway represent their position on the matter? (would go a LONG way in any legal matters to have the restaurant be just as irate as the victim )
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NavyLT
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Apr 1st, 2009 08:58 pm |
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Phssthpok wrote: NavyLT wrote: UPDATE! Island Cafe called me this morning. The owner/manager not sure which, expressed a sincere apology about the incident last night. She said the cafe did not call the police and that it was not their intention to have me leave. She said they absolutely support our right to carry and that I, my family, and my friends are welcome to return anytime, with our firearms!
Now to see about pursuing the unlawful removal of the property by the police....
Two questions:
1: How did they come to have your phone number? (just curious)
2: Did you get the impression they would be willing to testify that the officer acted on his own and DID NOT in anyway represent their position on the matter? (would go a LONG way in any legal matters to have the restaurant be just as irate as the victim)
1. I wrote a letter to Island Cafe management and dropped it off in person today. The letter stated that the food and service were excellent, stated both the legality and reasons for my carrying, included an OCDO pamphlet and expressed a desire for them to reconsider their decision as I would like to frequent their business again. That prompted the phone call, which I can save as a wav file, which stated they had nothing to do with the police action there last night and would appreciate our business.
2. Not sure about that. I have the recording of the phone call saying the restaurant was not involved in the incident. I know I would be mad as a cat in the bath if the police were running my customers off.
Like someone else posted earlier, if the cops are asking you to leave, make sure it is coming from the property owners and not just the cop's personal agenda. So that is lesson #2 for me. Now, I am going to go home, change clothes because I can't wear my gun in uniform, put on my gun, and go down and get a WA state ID card :-).
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