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bnhcomputing
Founder's Club Member
| Joined: | Thu Dec 13th, 2007 |
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Posted: Wed Jul 1st, 2009 05:10 am |
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Go into Wal-Mart tonight in Plover. Carried there several times before without issue.
I buy mouse pads and check-out. Then go to Sub-Way (inside Wal-Mart).
As I am ordering a sub, A young guy walks up to me:
W-Mart: Are you a police officer?
Me: No.
W-Mart: Do you have a permit to carry that?
Me: Actually, Wisconsin does not have or require permits to carry.
W-Mart: We had a few people say they were nervous.
Me: No need to be nervous, I am not doing anything other than eating.
W-Mart: Thank you sir.
Me: You're welcome.
I finish ordering the sub, sit down and eat. When I finish, I go back up to the counter and order two(2) more subs to take home to the family. As I am paying for the second order, the subway guy says, "I think there are people here to talk to you." I say, ya, kinda figured. I pay for the subs, and ask if I can get a little more soda. Subway guy says sure. I get a little more soda, and head out of Subway into Wal-Mart. As I step into Wal-Mart, I am met by three (3) LEO.
Leo1: Hello, I am officer xxx from the Plover Police department. The management here contacted us stating you are making people nervous and they would like yo to leave.
Me: I wasn't aware of that. They did not ask me to leave, if they had, I would have left.
Leo1: Although open carry is legal, they didn't feel comfortable asking you to leave so they contacted us.
Me: No problem, I am finished anyway, I'll head on out.
Leo1: Do you have some ID?
Me: Am I required to give you ID?
Leo1: When we are asked to ask you to leave, you are.
Me: I don't believe I am, but rather that argue, I will provide ID under duress.
I give him the ID, he starts the call in process.
Leo2: There is another guy who lives here in Plover who open carries a lot. I thought you might be that guy.
Me: I wasn't aware of that.
Leo1: Is this your current address?
Me: Yes.
Leo1: Your phone number?
Me: xxx-xxx-xxxx
Leo2: I assume you are well versed on Open Carry and realize that the property owners can ask you to leave.
Me: Yes, and if they had asked, I would have left immediately.
Leo1: Here is you license back. Where are you parked, but this entrance or the other one?
Me: By the other, but I can use this entrance, and walk across the parking lot.
Leo2: Should we start out?
Me: No problem, I walk out the door followed by the three LEO.
Leo1: Thank you for cooperating with us.
Me: Have a nice evening.
That's twice in as many days, that I have been contacted by LEO. I will be sending an open records request to the plover police tomorrow.
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J.Gleason
Campaign Veteran
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Posted: Wed Jul 1st, 2009 05:59 am |
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Sooner or later is has to come down to some one suing for deprivation of rights. That is all it is going to take and maybe then these people will wake up.
TITLE 42 - THE PUBLIC HEALTH AND WELFARE
CHAPTER 21 - CIVIL RIGHTS
SUBCHAPTER I - GENERALLY
§ 1983. Civil action for deprivation of rights
Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any
State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of
the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights,
privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured
in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress, except that in any action
brought against a judicial officer for an act or omission taken in such officer’s judicial capacity,
injunctive relief shall not be granted unless a declaratory decree was violated or declaratory relief
was unavailable. For the purposes of this section, any Act of Congress applicable exclusively to
the District of Columbia shall be considered to be a statute of the District of Columbia.
(R.S. § 1979; Pub. L. 96–170, § 1, Dec. 29, 1979, 93 Stat. 1284; Pub. L. 104–317, title III, § 309(c), Oct.
19, 1996, 110 Stat. 3853.)
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Citizen
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 1st, 2009 06:05 am |
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| Was the ID "process" the beginning of being "trespassed", meaning, now you get a letter saying you are not allowed back on penalty of being arrested for trespassing?
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bnhcomputing
Founder's Club Member
| Joined: | Thu Dec 13th, 2007 |
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Posted: Wed Jul 1st, 2009 06:08 am |
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Citizen wrote: Was the ID "process" the beginning of being "trespassed", meaning, now you get a letter saying you are not allowed back on penalty of being arrested for trespassing?
Unknown at this time. I will be contacting Corporate Wal-Mart via snail mail, because there doesn't appear to be any electronic way to do so. I will scan/post any documentation I receive.
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Citizen
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 1st, 2009 06:24 am |
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I wonder if there is any benefit to going back, unOCing, and asking the manager if they requested the police to trespass you.
Or maybe phrase it a little differently, "Did the police suggest you trespass me?"
I'll have to think about that.
Also, I guess I'll have to add to my tactics asking the police, if they demand ID in a similar circumstance, "Did the store say they wanted me trespassed?"
Depending on that answer, then maybe ask, "Oh? They did. I see. Was that your idea or theirs?"
I'll have to work this out a little bit.
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Doug Huffman
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 1st, 2009 10:07 am |
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Best wishes.
The stock Wal-Mart answer, from many similar such incidents reported here on OCDO, is that "store policy is to follow state law." To get a more definitive or responsive statement will be a coup.
And we will get a practical lesson in the application of Wisc. ID law and learn about the crime that was about to be/in process/had been committed.
I don't recall the 'demand ID' as part of Wisconsin trespass law. From my experience with other jurisdictions effective notice must be made. I suggest that absent notice you must be allowed to cure your trespass without committing a crime or tortious act.
An attorney might be useful to untangle these three disparate areas of law; gun law, trespass law and stop and ID.
Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth.
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Doug Huffman
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 1st, 2009 11:24 am |
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As an after thought, much later, it would/will be interesting were the same circumstances surround a member of a protected class thus forcing a differentiation between protected and non-protected civil rights (with a nod to Jackie's '1983') in PC Wisconsin.
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Yooper
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 1st, 2009 01:05 pm |
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 This is from MI Open Carry. Hope it helps!!!
Corporate policies on Open Carry.
MOC is compiling coporate poilicies on firearms. These businesses allow OC or CC and follow state laws in regards to firearms. MOC works hard on getting stores to allow the lawful carry of firearms for personal defense and follow state law in that regard.
If you have other policies please PM me details and I will update them.
Corporate policies on Open Carry.
BOB EVANS
From:Garrett_Hajes@bobevans.com
Bob Evans - Reference # 536155
We certainly appreciate you taking the time to e-mail regarding our Bob Evans Restaurants.
Bob Evans follows all local, state, and federal laws pertaining to firearms. Please contact your local Bob Evans restaurants for the specific regulations.
Again, Mr. Spice, we appreciate your comments. We value your patronage and appreciate your interest in Bob Evans Farms Inc.
Barnes & Noble
Original Message From: "Mary Ausman" <MJAusman@bn.com>
To: XXXXXXXXXXX
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 1:42 PM
Subject: Barnes & Noble
Thank you for your email.
While we are unable to discuss customer situations with an uninvolved third part, to answer your question, Barnes & Noble complies with the law and, except where prohibited by law, does not prohibit its customers from carrying handguns or other firearms in a Barnes & Noble store in accordance with the laws of the state in which a store is located.
Sincerely, Mary Ausman
Supervisor, Customer Retention
Barnes & Noble, Inc. 122 Fifth Avenue New York, NY 10011
tel: (800) 422-7717 fax: (212)352.3660 http://www.barnesandnobleinc.com
Walmart
Policy is to follow the law of the state the store located.
Customer Service1-800-Wal-Mart
(1-800-925-627 Questions regarding a Wal-Mart Store issue
702 SW 8th Street
Wal-Mart Stores, Inc.
Bentonville, Arkansas 72716-8611
Email contact link: http://walmartstores.com/contactus/feedback.aspx
Audio of Walmart Policy: Walmart_Firearm_Policy_Call.mp3
Cabelas:
Policy is to follow the law of the state the store located.
Thank you for the recent email. I am very sorry for the confusion that took place at our retail location.
Our corporate office has taken action in regards to the below mentioned issue and here is what has been decided.
We have made the decision to comply with state laws in regards to open carry. We do not ask customers to check concealed or open carry weapons where the state has laws governing this situation. Our signs refer to firearms that are being returned or sold to Cabela's.
If you are still having problems please feel free to let us know
Thanks again
Becky
Lead Associate
Cabela's Retail Information
1-800-905-2731
retail.contactgroup<AT>cabelas.com
Toys-R-US
Dear Mr. Ross:
Thank you for contacting Toys R Us regarding the recent tragedy in our store. Naturally, we want our guest's to be safe and feel confident while they are shopping. We adhere to the state law of whatever state a particular store is located in since the governing laws regarding gun control vary across the country. At this time I have not been notified that this will change though I can not guarantee that it won't in the future. I invite you to submit your concerns to our corporate head office for further attention.
Toys R Us
Attn: Gerald Storch (CEO)
1 Geoffrey Way
Wayne, NJ 07470
If you have any further questions or concerns please email us or contact our customer service line at 1-800-869-7787.
Sincerely,
Beverly McCann
Toys R Us Corporate Guest Relations Team
LOWE'S
Dear XXXX XXXX:
Thank you for giving Lowe's the opportunity to respond to your concerns regarding our policy on firearms in our stores.
Lowe's currently does, and will continue to abide by federal, state and local laws regarding firearms, and we do not prohibit customers from carrying firearms into our stores.
Our first and foremost concern is for the safety of our customers, however; we take all comments and concerns from our customers seriously. We are considerate of all customers, and will remain neutral regarding the right to carry firearms. We will respect federal, state and local laws regarding this.
If Lowe's can be of further assistance, please do not hesitate to call 1-866-284-8989 or email execustservice@lowes.com. You may also contact us by mailing your correspondence to P.O. Box 1111, Mail Code CON8, North Wilkesboro, North Carolina 28659.
Thank you,
Julie Holloway
Lowe's Executive Customer Service
BEST BUY's POLICY
from Customer Contact <CustomerContact@bestbuy.com>
to XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
date Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 7:31 PM
subject Best Buy Gun policy - XXXXXXXX
mailed-by bestbuy.com
Best Buy strives to comply with all applicable law and statues. Best Buy also strives to provide a safe and comfortable shopping environment for all our customers. Best Buy does not ban guns at our retail locations. As a general rule, Best Buy does not post “no guns allowed” signs in our stores and we are not aware of any individual stores that might have posted such a sign.
Home Depot.
Policy is to follow the law of the state the store located.
http://www.tennesseefirearms.com/law...s/homedepo.pdf
Customer care number. 1-800-430-3376
Contact link: http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/...atalogId=10053
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 06:13:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: "HD Consumer Affairs" <hdconsumeraffairs@homedepot.com>
To: warchild44spcl@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Other Website Questions
Dear Jerry,
The Home Depot Customer Care is in receipt of your email. We appreciate you taking the time to email us. Our general policy is not to ban customers from carrying firearms on the Home Depot property in those states having a concealed firearm law, provided they are carrying the firearm in accordance with the applicable laws.
If the firearm is not concealed in accordance with the carrying permit (typically that means concealed and cannot be seen by members of the public), it is up to the manager based on personal comfort level to approach the individual directly and request them to leave the premises or to contact local law enforcement for purposes of having the individual removed. Thank you for contacting us.
Sincerely,
Ricky
Customer Care
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zigziggityzoo
Campaign Veteran
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Posted: Wed Jul 1st, 2009 01:11 pm |
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Doug Huffman wrote:
Best wishes.
The stock Wal-Mart answer, from many similar such incidents reported here on OCDO, is that "store policy is to follow state law." To get a more definitive or responsive statement will be a coup.
And we will get a practical lesson in the application of Wisc. ID law and learn about the crime that was about to be/in process/had been committed.
I don't recall the 'demand ID' as part of Wisconsin trespass law. From my experience with other jurisdictions effective notice must be made. I suggest that absent notice you must be allowed to cure your trespass without committing a crime or tortious act.
An attorney might be useful to untangle these three disparate areas of law; gun law, trespass law and stop and ID.
Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth.
Generally, you're only allowed to "cure your trespass" in a place in which the general public is allowed (basically, any business that doesn't require membership to patronize). Obviously, WalMart qualifies here.
In this case, he was not given ample opportunity, as he was never asked to leave by anyone before the officer got involved.
I'd have personally refused ID, and politely informed him that now that I know I'm not welcome, I'll gladly leave. If the officer wants to take it further, he's taking his career into his own hands.
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Yooper
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 1st, 2009 01:14 pm |
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PM Venator on the Michigan board. He should know how to get corporate to contact the store and inform them of corporate policy. They (MI forum members) have done it before, and I don't see why it would be any different for WI
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Nutczak
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 1st, 2009 02:28 pm |
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I got to say it again, the MI members have got it going on and are on top of things.
I read the MI threads alot because I visit the U.P. often and I may relocate there one of these years.
Maybe we can sticky the post with the corporate policies to the top of the WI thread or someplace in the main page for easier future reference?
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No1
Banned
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Posted: Wed Jul 1st, 2009 05:14 pm |
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eeew too true
mee two
well said no one
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Flipper
Campaign Veteran
| Joined: | Tue Apr 21st, 2009 |
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Posted: Wed Jul 1st, 2009 08:58 pm |
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Walmart policies discussed elsewhere:
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-300305.html
http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/07/04/02/editor.htm
http://badgerblogger.com/?p=12377
http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/40413-wal-mart-dickson-city-no-longer-oc-friendly.html
Last edited on Wed Jul 1st, 2009 09:10 pm by Flipper
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Woodchuck
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 1st, 2009 10:56 pm |
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Geez Hubert, you got a target on your back? The rate your going it should be a hell of an interesting day at the Tea Party.
I'm not sure I'd give up ID that quickly either. But not having been asked by a LEO yet who knows, I may curl up in the fetal position and wet myself. Sure hope not, lol. Quess I'll find out sometime now that I do carry most places.
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MadtownTim
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 01:43 am |
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Here is one thing to keep in mine while open carrying.
This is coming from information gotten during a recent discussion about open carry in Madison, with a Police seargant.
Paraphrasing as I understood what she said to me: if you are out walking your dog, and someone calls to notify us of a man with a gun, and they are scared/worried, a patrol car will roll, they will draw their weapons and you will most likely be cited for disorderly conduct while armed.
This was reinforced with a phone call to the DA's office here in Madison. In speaking with 2 different ADAs, we were told that if someone calls and complains that they see a man with a gun and they are nervous, they would roll a squad, draw their weapons and I would be prosecuted for DC while armed.
Given the description of the incident above, I'm surprised that they didn't bring up DC while armed. Though the Plover PD has always been a bit over-zealous in their enforcement policies anyway.
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logan
Campaign Veteran
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 01:46 am |
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MadtownTim wrote: Here is one thing to keep in mine while open carrying.
This is coming from information gotten during a recent discussion about open carry in Madison, with a Police seargant.
Paraphrasing as I understood what she said to me: if you are out walking your dog, and someone calls to notify us of a man with a gun, and they are scared/worried, a patrol car will roll, they will draw their weapons and you will most likely be cited for disorderly conduct while armed.
This was reinforced with a phone call to the DA's office here in Madison. In speaking with 2 different ADAs, we were told that if someone calls and complains that they see a man with a gun and they are nervous, they would roll a squad, draw their weapons and I would be prosecuted for DC while armed.
Given the description of the incident above, I'm surprised that they didn't bring up DC while armed. Though the Plover PD has always been a bit over-zealous in their enforcement policies anyway.
Welcome to the website.
I would think if that were to happen...as long as you didn't do anything wrong except scare some person who fears guns and you get a DC...there'd be a lawsuit. But thats just me.
Last edited on Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 01:47 am by logan
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J.Gleason
Campaign Veteran
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 01:55 am |
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I believe there are 2 federal law suits going at this time for the same circumstances.
Not to keep beatin a dead cat with a stick but....
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/42/usc_sec_42_00001983----000-.html
Last edited on Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 01:56 am by J.Gleason
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Mugenlude
Campaign Veteran
| Joined: | Wed May 14th, 2008 |
| Location: | Racine |
| Posts: | 157 |
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 01:57 am |
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MadtownTim wrote: Here is one thing to keep in mine while open carrying.
This is coming from information gotten during a recent discussion about open carry in Madison, with a Police seargant.
Paraphrasing as I understood what she said to me: if you are out walking your dog, and someone calls to notify us of a man with a gun, and they are scared/worried, a patrol car will roll, they will draw their weapons and you will most likely be cited for disorderly conduct while armed.
This was reinforced with a phone call to the DA's office here in Madison. In speaking with 2 different ADAs, we were told that if someone calls and complains that they see a man with a gun and they are nervous, they would roll a squad, draw their weapons and I would be prosecuted for DC while armed.
Given the description of the incident above, I'm surprised that they didn't bring up DC while armed. Though the Plover PD has always been a bit over-zealous in their enforcement policies anyway.
Welcome to the site!!!
This response sounds very familiiar, if you do so searching on this website you will see that lots of cities said that at some point, however, many people aren't actually running into this. It seems like a scare tactic to deter you from open carrying your firearm, they are used to not having to deal with citizens with firearms.
The AG issued a memo addressing the situation you just described and it said that OC in and off itself is not DC. That is probably what they used to do, but the AG issue the memo and all of the police departments know of this ruling. Don't let them deter you...
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Doug Huffman
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 02:10 am |
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Simple DC is a forfeiture misdemeanor (947.01, 939.63(2) and 939.51 & .52). No one that worries about the AG will ever see the charge.
Even with the deadly weapons enhancement to potentially >365 days of incarceration 939.63(2) it's still a misdemeanor.
Last edited on Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 02:21 am by Doug Huffman
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Woodchuck
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 02:12 am |
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MadtownTim wrote:
Here is one thing to keep in mine while open carrying.
This is coming from information gotten during a recent discussion about open carry in Madison, with a Police seargant.
Paraphrasing as I understood what she said to me: if you are out walking your dog, and someone calls to notify us of a man with a gun, and they are scared/worried, a patrol car will roll, they will draw their weapons and you will most likely be cited for disorderly conduct while armed.
This was reinforced with a phone call to the DA's office here in Madison. In speaking with 2 different ADAs, we were told that if someone calls and complains that they see a man with a gun and they are nervous, they would roll a squad, draw their weapons and I would be prosecuted for DC while armed.
Welcome to the site.
Wisconsin AG's MEMO linky
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