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Interceptor_Knight
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 20th, 2009 05:11 pm |
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J.Gleason wrote: Lammie wrote:
The total cost to obtain a carry permit in Minnesota and the thirty three other states mentioned can be as high as $407 sales tax not included. Don't take my word for it, check it out. http://www.permittocarry.us
And how many are in a class? And how many classes does he hold a week? A Month?
Yeah, there's no monetary gain involved here at all <Sarcasm 
Whore mongering money grabbing lobbyist training advocates.
By the way thanks for posting that Lammie!
Sounds like a bargain for 3 seperate non-resident permits.....
This has nothing to do with any proposed WI carry bill......
You must really poop a brick when you find out how much it costs to take advanced firearms training courses (tactical carbine, etc) and how many people are in a class....
Your irrational tirades have gone beyond the mere criticism of any mention of training for a WI bill to jumping on the train and attacking any and all firearms trainers who choose to offer the necessary training in order to get optional permits for other states.....
Last edited on Fri Nov 20th, 2009 05:46 pm by Interceptor_Knight
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J.Gleason
Campaign Veteran
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Posted: Fri Nov 20th, 2009 05:53 pm |
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Interceptor_Knight wrote: J.Gleason wrote: I was referring to the differences in the price of a CCW course. If it isn't for profit then why are the prices different. It is you who is running out of argument.
And as far as a "Reasonable" person goes. Any "Reasonable" person who is honest and has common sense can easily and undoubtedly see that the whole training issue is nothing more than an enterprise issue.
Some who choose to train are doing so in their place of business. They are not going to do it for charity. Others do it because they enjoy doing so and do not feel a need to charge so much. This is simple capitalism. Once the system is in place it is natural that some may profit from it.
The difference here is that you continue to jump on the train. You stand by the assertion that the only motivation for having a permit system is for monetary gain. Not anywhere close to reality......
Maybe not anywhere close to your reality. I prefer the truth and the truth is the whole training fiasco is about monetary gain and nothing more. Apparently you don't get that.
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J.Gleason
Campaign Veteran
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Posted: Fri Nov 20th, 2009 05:54 pm |
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Interceptor_Knight wrote:
Your irrational tirades have gone beyond the mere criticism of any mention of training for a WI bill to jumping on the train and attacking any and all firearms trainers who choose to offer the necessary training in order to get optional permits for other states.....
And your tirades have made you nothing more than a training lobbyist. There goes your credibility.
By the way, I have no problem with someone seeking out training for reciprocity.
I do believe that reciprocity training and mandated training are two different things.
Last edited on Fri Nov 20th, 2009 06:10 pm by J.Gleason
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Interceptor_Knight
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 20th, 2009 06:09 pm |
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J.Gleason wrote: Maybe not anywhere close to your reality. I prefer the truth and the truth is the whole training fiasco is about monetary gain and nothing more. Apparently you don't get that.
J.Gleason wrote:
And your tirades have made you nothing more than a training lobbyist. There goes your credibility.
Straw man much?
This thread is about a proposed bill for WI, not about MN permits, UT permits, NH permits or FL permits and those who provide the service of training individuals in order to qualify for these permits. In an ineffective attempt to deamonize all CCW trainers you point out that they charge for providing a service. Not exactly a smoking gun.
I have said all along that I support a WI carry system with no mandatory permit and therefore no mandatory training. Any permit and the necessary training should be optional. Any permit worth having will meet the standards necessary for reciprocity by other states. This will involve training. The reality is that few if anyone will provide training at zero cost to the participants. Their time is worth money. Some of these individuals operate a business. They are not in the business of providing services at zero cost. This is why some trainers will charge more in order to cover overhead and those with less overhead will naturally charge less. Many trainers enjoy what they do and this is their motivation for doing it, so they charge less.
As with any business, you can choose not to frequent it. You can choose not to carry outside of WI.
The big question which no one has answered is if you are carrying because you believe your life and the lives of your loved ones is worth defending, why would you deliberately choose to only carry in a relatively small geographical area???
Save us the stories of how you have carried all around the country without a permit and never got cited.
Last edited on Fri Nov 20th, 2009 06:12 pm by Interceptor_Knight
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J.Gleason
Campaign Veteran
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Posted: Fri Nov 20th, 2009 06:12 pm |
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Interceptor_Knight wrote:
Straw man much?
If you want to keep referring to me as a drug addict or otherwise, that is fine. Just don't start crying when I start giving it back to you.
Your credibility with me is GONE.
My carrying in most of the states with out a permit is no story it is the truth. Oh that is right the truth is something you obviously don't understand. Sounds like when someone can prove that you may not be right about something, you simply start throwing stones in all directions. Typical crackhead behavior.
Last edited on Fri Nov 20th, 2009 06:15 pm by J.Gleason
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Interceptor_Knight
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 20th, 2009 06:28 pm |
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J.Gleason wrote: If you want to keep referring to me as a drug addict or otherwise, that is fine. Just don't start crying when I start giving it back to you.
Your credibility with me is GONE.
My carrying in most of the states with out a permit is no story it is the truth. Oh that is right the truth is something you obviously don't understand. Sounds like when someone can prove that you may not be right about something, you simply start throwing stones in all directions. Typical crackhead behavior.
I know you are old enough to have seen the movie Airplane. Bad week to stop sniffing glue is a joke which originated from that movie. I am not accusing you of actually doing drugs... .. unlike your attempted payback in your responses to me....
Your being lucky and never getting cited has nothing to do with someone who is trying to stay within the law. That is why it is irrelevant. Reasonable responsible Law abiding citizens are going to be naturally drawn to get the required permits. This is not anything against you, this is merely stating a fact.
Demonizing trainers by pointing out that they charge for their services proves nothing except that people are willing to get optional training and pay for it.
The fact that people are charging for the training required to get UT/MN/FL/NH permits is no more dramatic than a mechanic charging to work on your car. It can cost thousands of dollars to get and maintain trainer credentials for multiple states. Business owners have operating expenses. If you are too cheap to get one of these permits, don't do so but do not deamonize those who do and those who charge for this service.
Last edited on Fri Nov 20th, 2009 06:42 pm by Interceptor_Knight
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Interceptor_Knight
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 20th, 2009 06:28 pm |
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| ... Last edited on Fri Nov 20th, 2009 06:29 pm by Interceptor_Knight
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Interceptor_Knight
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 20th, 2009 06:51 pm |
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Nutczak wrote: "Those who only want to do good" yeah, at making $6,000.00-$10,000.00+ on a saturday!! I would call that "Doing Good" too.
Must be that new math....
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Interceptor_Knight
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 20th, 2009 06:56 pm |
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J.Gleason wrote: Interceptor_Knight wrote:
Straw man much?
If you want to keep referring to me as a drug addict or otherwise, that is fine. Just don't start crying when I start giving it back to you.
Your credibility with me is GONE.
A Straw Man argument.........
Straw Man is not a new type of teen drug......
Get a grip man.... I never accused you of doing any drugs nor even suggested that you were actually doing them....
Last edited on Fri Nov 20th, 2009 06:58 pm by Interceptor_Knight
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Interceptor_Knight
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 20th, 2009 06:56 pm |
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| ... Last edited on Fri Nov 20th, 2009 06:56 pm by Interceptor_Knight
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Pointman
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 20th, 2009 07:28 pm |
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The renewal MN permit is actually falling in price, about $75 for the class and $65 for the permit depending on where you go, which is good for another 5 years. FL is about $100 for the renewal permit alone, but it's 7 years. NY is $400, and another $350 for New York City!!!! Heck, other than DC that's where you need it most!
What several people here forget is WI has permit-less open carry, so any permit fees will be less than in other states because we have options. If you don't want to pay for a permit, open carry!
I don't see what the problem with lobbying for better carry is. You're really complaining about a five-year permit for $25, and renewal for $10???
I took some NRA shooting classes and they were okay, but it was about six weeks of 5-hour classes. There was some good stuff, but it could have been done in one weekend.
I took Gene German's permit class: one day of six hours and it was really good. I didn't actually get the MN permit, just wanted to stay out of trouble in public.
So, I don't know what some of you are fighting over, since nobody would force you to get a permit, and if you wanted one it's really cheap. If Doug does the training it's almost free, and you can carry everywhere.
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By the way, what the heck is with this "Master Doug" thing? Is he importing slaves? He's not into human trafficking, is he?
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Master Doug Huffman
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 20th, 2009 07:41 pm |
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Pointman wrote: By the way, what the heck is with this "Master Doug" thing? Is he importing slaves? He's not into human trafficking, is he? Giving up my Doug Huffman post count to preclude other's point count competition. It didn't work.
I know when I joined OCDO, no one else needs to. I outlasted PDO and I expect to outlast OCDO.
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Nutczak
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Nov 21st, 2009 12:22 am |
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The Caustic Interrupter wrote: Some who choose to train are doing so in their place of business. They are not going to do it for charity. This is simple capitalism. Once the system is in place it is natural that some may profit from it.
Lets take a look at reality for a few seconds no matter how much it pains you to do so, OK I_K?
Wisconsin is short of hunters safety instructors because of what & why?
If each hunters safety instructor could pocket $200-$300 per student in their class like the firearm instructors charge, We would be up to our asses in hunters safety instructors!!
And they would also be pressuring the legislators to make the training mandatory for all ages on top of it! With that kind of carrot dangled in front of them few could resist that kind of coin!
Let's use the conservative figure of $250/student, and a class of 30 students, that would be $7,500.00 for an 8-hour day!
The classes they are trying to assemble up here have a price tag of $300.00, and 40 people per class.
Nutczak wrote: "Those who only want to do good" yeah, at making $6,000.00-$10,000.00+ on a Saturday!! I would call that "Doing Good" too.
Then the Idiotic_Knight Writes;
Must be that new math....
That "New Math" comes out to $12K per class taught. $1,500.00/hour!! So I was being conservative in my figures an what classes cost in other area's of the state.
If I was a person who possesses no morals or scruples I would be pushing for mandatory training too with that kind of paycheck for 8-hours of time.
Hunters safety instructors can not, do not, and never will make that kind of profit by teaching their course, hence the shortage of instructors and difficulty finding available classes in several parts of the state.
I-K, Why is that so difficult for you to understand?
I could give a flying funk what these people want to charge for their classes if training is not mandatory!
And we would also see a whole lot less people trying to get on that gravy-train rolling on biscuit wheels loaded with firearm instructors because of it.
We need to applaud all the hunters safety instructors for taking time out of their lives to forward our deep-rooted heritage of hunting. They are not making several thousands of dollars per day, but they still provide the service anyways.
I refuse to pay some greedy ass-clown to exercise any of my rights while residing in the state of Wisconsin.
If another state requires it for their permit or reciprocity, good for them! Then you can go right ahead and pay for that states training requirements and it will not bother me one bit. But quit trying to force expensive mandatory training on Wisconsin residents for the ability to carry in their own state.
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Interceptor_Knight
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Nov 21st, 2009 12:41 am |
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Nutczak wrote: Wisconsin is short of hunters safety instructors because of what & why?
If each hunters safety instructor could pocket $200-$300 per student in their class like the firearm instructors charge, We would be up to our asses in hunters safety instructors!!
And they would also be pressuring the legislators to make the training mandatory for all ages on top of it! With that kind of carrot dangled in front of them few could resist that kind of coin!
Let's use the conservative figure of $250/student, and a class of 30 students, that would be $7,500.00 for an 8-hour day!
The classes they are trying to assemble up here have a price tag of $300.00, and 40 people per class.
More new math. Your scenerios are fabricated and unrealistic.
Who is "they" and what classes are they trying to "assemble"?
Let's use the conservative figure of $75 and 30 students per class. $20 of that goes towards materials. That leaves $55 per student. $1650 per weekend and $825 per day. Two 8 hour days is a little over $100 per hour. $3.33 per student per hour.
A bargain by any standard......
I know of no independent MN Carry permit trainers pocketing $200 per student.
Last edited on Sat Nov 21st, 2009 12:42 am by Interceptor_Knight
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J.Gleason
Campaign Veteran
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Posted: Sat Nov 21st, 2009 04:27 am |
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Interceptor_Knight wrote: Nutczak wrote: Wisconsin is short of hunters safety instructors because of what & why?
If each hunters safety instructor could pocket $200-$300 per student in their class like the firearm instructors charge, We would be up to our asses in hunters safety instructors!!
And they would also be pressuring the legislators to make the training mandatory for all ages on top of it! With that kind of carrot dangled in front of them few could resist that kind of coin!
Let's use the conservative figure of $250/student, and a class of 30 students, that would be $7,500.00 for an 8-hour day!
The classes they are trying to assemble up here have a price tag of $300.00, and 40 people per class.
More new math. Your scenerios are fabricated and unrealistic.
Who is "they" and what classes are they trying to "assemble"?
Let's use the conservative figure of $75 and 30 students per class. $20 of that goes towards materials. That leaves $55 per student. $1650 per weekend and $825 per day. Two 8 hour days is a little over $100 per hour. $3.33 per student per hour.
A bargain by any standard......
I know of no independent MN Carry permit trainers pocketing $200 per student.
Blah, Blah Blah, you come up with new numbers every time. If you want to pay to learn something you already know, that's your prerogative. Do not try to impose it on everyone else.
As far as your sniffing glue analogy, it had nothing to do with the movies and everything to do with insults because I do not agree with your position on training.
I will say this clearly this time so then maybe the issue will go away. Mandatory or mandated training is Bull 5hit! Training for reciprocity is acceptable as long as it is optional. There is absolutely no reason, other than monetary, that training should be mandated in any carry bill period.
I have no problem with paying a small processing fee should the issuance of permits come from this bill. Hopefully there will be no permits (Ultimate Goal). I do realize that we may not get everything we should get in accordance with the constitution. But we should try as hard as we can to get everything that we can now and work toward the rest later.
Personally, if we achieve nothing more than amending our current laws to fall in line with the constitution, I don't think any of us could complain. That would leave us in better shape then most of the country when it comes to firearm laws.
As far as me carrying in almost every state, I didn't just get lucky. 90% of the time law enforcement was present, so it wasn't like they just didn't see me. They worked right along side of me.
It is OK to be not all knowing sometimes. Just keep in mind that what I speak about is FREEDOM and what you speak about is FEEDOM.
By the way, none of you training advocates have answered the question yet, so I will repeat it for you again.
What is the difference between OCW and CCW that would dignify a person to have to pay for training in order to carry?
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AaronS
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Nov 21st, 2009 05:05 am |
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J.Gleason wrote: By the way, none of you training advocates have answered the question yet, so I will repeat it for you again.
What is the difference between OCW and CCW that would dignify a person to have to pay for training in order to carry?
This is my question as well. Why should we want to be made to pay one cent, to be able to exercise any right?Last edited on Sat Nov 21st, 2009 05:05 am by AaronS
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Interceptor_Knight
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Nov 21st, 2009 08:39 am |
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AaronS wrote: J.Gleason wrote: By the way, none of you training advocates have answered the question yet, so I will repeat it for you again.
What is the difference between OCW and CCW that would dignify a person to have to pay for training in order to carry?
This is my question as well. Why should we want to be made to pay one cent, to be able to exercise any right?
Nobody "wants" to pay anything...
In a perfect world, we would have no training required and full reciprocity for our permit. The reality is quite different. States require more than just the bare minimum of training before they will recognize a permit. Read the Walls appeal. See the attitude of the WI SC regarding concealed carry. The fact simply is that most States including our own regard CCW as being different than OC.
Current WI State law requires security guards to be certified just to Open Carry in a vehicle. They are exempted from the administrative policy and WI SC definition of concealed meaning that you can't see it outside of the vehicle.
We can try to get a perfect bill through, but unless the guys/gals in Madison support it we will fail. Remember, only VT started out with no permit required. Even AK started out with a permit.
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Interceptor_Knight
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Nov 21st, 2009 08:43 am |
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J.Gleason wrote: If you want to pay to learn something you already know, that's your prerogative. Do not try to impose it on everyone else.
I haven't "tried" to impose anything. You and others however have tried to demonize anyone who trains for a fee. WI can not dictate what other states require. The fact that instructors are paid to train the material for these other states is irrelevant to what we are discussing. There is nothing inherently evil about charging for a service....
The reality is that most people do not know what they should before carrying, whether it is Open or Concealed. Gene German has an open offer going. If you can pass a written test based on the MN CCW material you are required to be trained on for a MN Carry Permit, you do not have to pay a dime for training. He will sign you off for free. Are you up to the challenge?
Last edited on Sat Nov 21st, 2009 08:49 am by Interceptor_Knight
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McX
Regular Member
| Joined: | Tue Jul 14th, 2009 |
| Location: | Wisconsin USA |
| Posts: | 1065 |
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Offline
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Posted: Sat Nov 21st, 2009 10:39 am |
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| I don't think anyone is going to give us squat until they figure out a way to tax it, fill their budget problems with our money. Look what they're doing to cigarettes!
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Master Doug Huffman
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Nov 21st, 2009 11:30 am |
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That is SC's recent experience. IIRC, the tax was originally set at $50, and remains so, but the State police have used a work slowdown to politick for an increase - to $500. It has for now been beaten back.
Can you imagine that though, a tax on exercising a Right? NO wonder the NRA assiliate 'members' were incensed when I suggested writing the NRA out of the law.
Might there be a lesson here for Wisconsin, like the TN experience with guns in licensed premises? SC has that struggle ahead and for the same reasons. TX has solved some of the problems.
Last edited on Sat Nov 21st, 2009 11:32 am by Master Doug Huffman
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