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ParaWarthog
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| Joined: | Fri Feb 16th, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 205 |
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2007 12:55 am |
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Here's a great example of what all of the Alabama residents, myself included, who have posted on this issue have predicted would happen.
Assuming the accused individual's story is accurate, his comments were inapprorpiate, but it is important to note that he was NOT violating Alabama law. The AG's opinion is very clear, and this might be the case we need.
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LoveMyCountry
State Researcher
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2007 01:05 am |
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openryan wrote: bayboy42 wrote: HankT Wrote:
Never trust an 18 year old who open carries while applying for a retail store job and who keeps a revealing MySpace page public for his potential (yeah, right) employer to look up. Nor one who lacks clue or means to do anything about defending his case other than his call of "God bless America."
I swear, though I believe fiercely in the RKBA, both concealed and openly, I just as firmly believe some of the practitioners of same run the risk of making it worse for the rest of us.
Showing up to look for a job, 18 years old, while open carrying.....<shaking head>.
Maybe I missed something in this thread.....Hank what exactly is wrong with applying for a job while open carrying. Its Wal-Mart......to apply you don't even encounter anyone with a heartbeat, its all electronic. Or perhaps you have some secret intel that indicates that the bad guys typically choose to ignore the 18 year old kid looking for a job. I don't disagree with you that this story has some big holes in it from both sides but your statement contradicts itself. Would you stand by your statement if he was just an 18 year old open carrying while applying for a job at Wal-Mart who DIDN'T keep a revealing myspace page and chose to lawyer up immediately?
What is wrong is that this young man got into an altercation, I seriously doubt the situation would have came to such a level if he just left like they asked, you cannot bring a gun on to others property and the ask you not to.
Typically stubborn young adult, only this was the wrong time and the wrong place, and you certainly should not be getting into any verbal arguments like this while open carrying, at least ones that involve swearing and the like, this man seemed he was of bad character, and I do think action was needed to remove him, but this much action, I am not sure.
Kids don't learn by saying no anymore (at least not most of them), so you have to do something...
I am not saying open carry is bad in the least, i do it 100% of the time, but if someone were to ask me to leave, I would definately be on my way out, and so would my money
The way you put it reminds me of several people who were hassled while OC'ing in a Pizza Parlor. Those guys must have been trouble makers too.
Love My Country
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LoveMyCountry
State Researcher
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2007 01:16 am |
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I read the young man's side of the story. It's my impression that he is within his rights to do what he did. That said, I also feel that he is going to get screwed if he doesn't get some legal counsel. 
Maybe he could get some guidance from Zach, another one of those trouble making young men who are standing firm and defending the same rights that many of us took for granted. They are our future freedom fighters and I salute them!
LoveMyCountry
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openryan
State Researcher
| Joined: | Wed Apr 18th, 2007 |
| Location: | Indiana USA |
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2007 02:08 am |
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LoveMyCountry wrote: I read the young man's side of the story. It's my impression that he is within his rights to do what he did. That said, I also feel that he is going to get screwed if he doesn't get some legal counsel.
Maybe he could get some guidance from Zach, another one of those trouble making young men who are standing firm and defending the same rights that many of us took for granted. They are our future freedom fighters and I salute them!
LoveMyCountry
I have read both accounts, I cannot decide which one to believe, but you cannot stand up for your rights to carry by ignoring the stores right to refuse you to be able to carry a firearm.
If indeed he made a comment, even if it was an eff you, or a 'you are a moron' type comment a lot of people could take that as threatening when you have a gun on your hip/thigh/whatever.
Now if the comment was something along the lines of 'well i do not agree with your store policy, I will no longer spend money here' I could totally accept that.
Again, I do not know which account of this altercation is true, but just my opinion of the matter.
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HankT
State Researcher
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2007 02:52 am |
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LoveMyCountry wrote: openryan wrote: What is wrong is that this young man got into an altercation, I seriously doubt the situation would have came to such a level if he just left like they asked, you cannot bring a gun on to others property and the ask you not to.
Typically stubborn young adult, only this was the wrong time and the wrong place, and you certainly should not be getting into any verbal arguments like this while open carrying, at least ones that involve swearing and the like, this man seemed he was of bad character, and I do think action was needed to remove him, but this much action, I am not sure.
Kids don't learn by saying no anymore (at least not most of them), so you have to do something...
I am not saying open carry is bad in the least, i do it 100% of the time, but if someone were to ask me to leave, I would definately be on my way out, and so would my money
The way you put it reminds me of several people who were hassled while OC'ing in a Pizza Parlor. Those guys must have been trouble makers too.
I also thought of the Tony's 7 case. Not in terms of similarity but of contrast. In the T7 case there were 7 men who were going about ordinary business, met up with some flack from an individual, encountered tons of flack from the horde of LEOs who arrived and tried various means to misinterpret the law and hassle these guys. Through it all, the T7 were cool, calm, collected and refused to be part of any escalation of the situation. They had their resolve, knowledge and firmness fully under control. Those were men in a difficult situation and they acquitted themselves admirably-not only to their own credit as individual citizens but to the benefit of all other responsible law abiding and carrying citizens.
The 18 year old with a gun on his hip, a job application and an attitude was a boy with some kind of distorted point to prove.
There is no comparison between the two incidents. Apples and oranges. Men and boys.
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Mike
Super Moderator
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2007 03:04 am |
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From the poster's subsequent letter to the editor, it appears he entered a vehicle wearing a gun without a license - a crime in Alabama that is highlighted on our Alabama page:
Summary
Alabama is a traditional open carry state. The only thing preventing it from being one of our "Gold Star" open carry states is their prohibition against carrying openly in a vehicle without a permit.
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BobCav
Member
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2007 03:09 am |
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| glocknroll, me too. Me too. But have faith, we're not alone and the river is rising.
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glocknroll
Member
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2007 03:32 am |
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BobCav wrote: glocknroll, me too. Me too. But have faith, we're not alone and the river is rising.
Thanks, Bob. I just hope that when the river rises enough, we're not caught in a leaky boat. It really is nice to know that I'm not just a paranoid SOB. Like I said before, just cuz you are paranoid doesn't mean people aren't out to get you.
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HankT
State Researcher
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2007 03:43 am |
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bayboy42 wrote:
HankT Wrote:
Never trust an 18 year old who open carries while applying for a retail store job and who keeps a revealing MySpace page public for his potential (yeah, right) employer to look up. Nor one who lacks clue or means to do anything about defending his case other than his call of "God bless America."
I swear, though I believe fiercely in the RKBA, both concealed and openly, I just as firmly believe some of the practitioners of same run the risk of making it worse for the rest of us.
Showing up to look for a job, 18 years old, while open carrying.....<shaking head>.
Maybe I missed something in this thread.....Hank what exactly is wrong with applying for a job while open carrying. Its Wal-Mart......to apply you don't even encounter anyone with a heartbeat, its all electronic.
Then why were so many Wal-Mart employees so aware of this guy with a gun? Did the dumb terminal advise them somehow?
bayboy42 wrote: Or perhaps you have some secret intel that indicates that the bad guys typically choose to ignore the 18 year old kid looking for a job.
No, I have no such secret intel.
Do you have some new probabalistic model that would support the idea that the risk of getting accosted by bad guys during the specific 20 minutes it takes to inquire about and fill out a job application at Wal-Mart is somehow greater than the benefits from simply going into the store, asking about the application process, filling out the application, not getting into a beef with store personnel, and not getting arrested?
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Lew
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| Joined: | Thu Jun 15th, 2006 |
| Location: | Wyoming USA |
| Posts: | 170 |
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2007 04:01 am |
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Why would he expect to get "into a beef" with anybody? It's not illegal.
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kurtmax_0
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| Joined: | Mon Apr 23rd, 2007 |
| Location: | Auburn, Alabama USA |
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2007 04:03 am |
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Statistically it's probably not as dangerous to not wear a firearm for 20 minutes while filling out an application. It could, however, be that one time you need it....
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bayboy42
Member
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2007 04:10 am |
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Sure don't HankT........and why should I.............I'm not making any claims that there was something wrong with him carrying his firearm inside Wal-Mart while he applied for a job at an electronic terminal. For someone who "fiercely believes in the RKBA", I'm sure you've heard the phrase "Better to have and not need, then need and not have". My only point was that he should not be frowned upon simply for carrying his firearm openly while applying for a job. If he did indeed get into a verbal confrontation with store employess, frown on that.........if he refused to leave when asked, frown on that.
What gives HankT, you seem to have some sort of animosity towards the younger generation of OCers. You seem to thing that Zack's story was pre-meditated and that this young man in Alabama "Got what he deserved".
You even like to contradict yourself....one minute you state "Well, now we have two utterly one-sided accounts with crucially vague descriptions of the events on May 9th. Which account to rely on? Well, not the Andalusia Star's version. That's for sure. And not the arrestee's obviously selective one either. And the next, you've spun a complete 180 stating: The 18 year old with a gun on his hip, a job application and an attitude was a boy with some kind of distorted point to prove. What happened between 4:02 pm and 9:52 pm this evening. Did you somehow obtain the security camera footage from Wal-mart..........did you speak with a store manager..........do you have some sort of FOIA red phone? Come on HankT, don't hold out on us, if you know something we don't regarding Mr. Mathis's behavior at Wal-Mart on 9 May, share it....please!!
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DKSuddeth
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| Joined: | Mon May 8th, 2006 |
| Location: | Bedford, Texas USA |
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2007 04:33 am |
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Mike wrote: From the poster's subsequent letter to the editor, it appears he entered a vehicle wearing a gun without a license - a crime in Alabama that is highlighted on our Alabama page:
Summary
Alabama is a traditional open carry state. The only thing preventing it from being one of our "Gold Star" open carry states is their prohibition against carrying openly in a vehicle without a permit.
I see nowhere that the OP/letter writer said he was 18. I also see where he did state that he USUALLY carried an IWB with only a partial showing of the weapon, which could mean that georgia open carry is similar to AZ, if any part is showing then it's open, but could also mean he carries concealed which SHOULD mean he's licensed.
edit: I do see where the paper identified him as 18, is this verified?
Last edited on Tue May 15th, 2007 04:36 am by DKSuddeth
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HankT
State Researcher
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2007 01:55 pm |
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DKSuddeth wrote:
...I do see where the paper identified him as 18, is this verified?
Yeah, pretty much:
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=73841945
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Malum Prohibitum
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2007 02:15 pm |
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Mike wrote: From the poster's subsequent letter to the editor, it appears he entered a vehicle wearing a gun without a license - a crime in Alabama that is highlighted on our Alabama page:
Mike, I think you missed the boat on this one. Hit Control-F and type in the word "license." You will see that it is not in the letter to the editor. What is in the letter to the editor is his description of his inclination to daily carry concealed, an inclination that he ignored on this particular day because of the heat.
In evidence class you learn that evidence is something which tends to show something else. I believe this statement about usually carrying concealed tends to show that he has a license, and does not tend to show that he daily violates the concealed carry law as well as violating the law on carry in his car on the day in question.
Which do you believe it tends to show?
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Malum Prohibitum
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2007 02:20 pm |
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HankT wrote: DKSuddeth wrote:
...I do see where the paper identified him as 18, is this verified?
Yeah, pretty much:
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=73841945
That is one scary page.
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Malum Prohibitum
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2007 02:26 pm |
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openryan wrote: I have read both accounts, I cannot decide which one to believe, but you cannot stand up for your rights to carry by ignoring the stores right to refuse you to be able to carry a firearm.
If indeed he made a comment, even if it was an eff you, or a 'you are a moron' type comment a lot of people could take that as threatening when you have a gun on your hip/thigh/whatever.
Now if the comment was something along the lines of 'well i do not agree with your store policy, I will no longer spend money here' I could totally accept that.
We do not have to guess. Neither account said that he refused to leave. He was not charged with criminal trespass, either, which tends to show that he did not refuse to leave. 
Neither account accuses him of using four letter words. Like this ------->  Only one account records what he said. The Newspaper simply stated that he called them "names." His account specifies what the name was: "Anti-Second Amendment Nazis." It is worth pointing out, however, that he was not even calling them this name, but opining that such persons must be in charge of Wal-Mart policy.
Wal-Mart policy is to allow concealed carry, but not openly carried firearms. A lot of stores ignore the policy and allow openly carried firearms as well, at least here in Georgia.
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apjonas
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2007 04:12 pm |
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Yes, I have returned (briefly). My reason for doing this is not the childish insults hurled in my absence but rather concern for Alabamians who might get themselves in trouble following the advice posted here. The individual in question was in violation of 13A-11.52:
Section 13A-11-52
Carrying pistol on premises not his own; who may carry pistol.
Except as otherwise provided in this article, no person shall carry a pistol about his person on premises not his own or under his control; but this section shall not apply to any sheriff or his deputy or police officer of an incorporated town or city in the lawful discharge of the duties of his office, or to United States marshal or his deputies, rural free delivery mail carriers in the discharge of their duties as such, bonded constables in the discharge of their duties as such, conductors, railway mail clerks and express messengers in the discharge of their duties.
(Acts 1919, No. 204, p. 196; Code 1923, §3487; Code 1940, T. 14, §163; Code 1975, §13-6-122.)
Note that there is no reference to “concealed” or “vehicle.” This demonstrates the hazards of quoting old court cases and AG opinons. The law subsequently changed. References to the concealed carry law (13A-11-73) are misplaced. It merely allows you to carry in a manner (concealed or in a vehicle) that is otherwise prohibited. It does not negate the other law. All the talk of 18 year olds, licenses and four letter words is irrelevant. You can give Alabama a gold star or a pumpkin sticker but unless and until the legislature or state supreme court determines otherwise, open or concealed carry (even with a license) is permitted only on your own land or public property (unless otherwise restricted). The main advantage of having a license is that you can carry concealed, in a vehicle and on the premises of a public school (PDO is wrong on this point). Literally this means that you cannot open carry at a friend’s farm to shoot even if invited. I rather doubt that there would be a prosecution in such a case (and if there were, a new common law rule would be established). I shall now return to the shadows. I will respond to any good faith questions but not silly provocations.
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HankT
State Researcher
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2007 04:16 pm |
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Welcome back, apjonas. Hang in there.
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bayboy42
Member
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2007 04:35 pm |
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apjonas - i'm not clear on your post. The code states that "Except as otherwise provided in this article, no person shall carry a pistol about his person on premises not his own or under his control;" but your expanded diaglogue below the quote states "You can give Alabama a gold star or a pumpkin sticker but unless and until the legislature or state supreme court determines otherwise, open or concealed carry (even with a license) is permitted only on your own land or public property (unless otherwise restricted)."
Where did the "or public property (unless otherwise restricted)" part come from...its not in the code you cited. Or is that reference possible just to concealed carry with a license.
Please accept this as a good faith question and not a provocation. If I'm reading your post correctly, Alabama isn't even close to an OC state.
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