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HankT
State Researcher
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Posted: Thu Jun 4th, 2009 04:30 am |
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suntzu wrote: You don't know why he was scared--maybe the OD officer moved his hand toward his weapon--maybe he had his hand on the weapon--the story does not say and only those who were there actually know.
I'm saying that if he was in fear of his life, and actually felt that his life was in danger--he should be set free.
The same as if some CCer (not knowing that OC is legal) who is actually in fear of his life and shoots an LAC OCer should be set free? 
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suntzu
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Posted: Thu Jun 4th, 2009 04:33 am |
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HungSquirrel wrote: So you're saying if Brandon put his hand on his pistol, the kid should be released simply because he "thought" he was going to shoot?
That is the standard the police are held to. In a just society, the police are held to a higher standard than the public at large. Ergo, if it's good enough for a cop, it's good enough for Joe Sixpack.
It is the standard law enforcement meets--how many innocent--INNOCENT people have been killed by law enforcement simply because law enforcement THOUGHT the citizen was drawing or pointing a gun? It happened not long ago in Washington state--man was shot in his own doorway as I recall--his crime? Law enforcement "thought" he was a suspect they were looking for in a neighborhood-their excuse for killing him--he had a gun--turned out the innocent person was in fact in his OWN doorway, on HIS property, investigating strange noises coming from HIS property when he was shot in his doorway...
how many innocent citizens have been killed by the police--and then nothing was done to the officers but a slap on the wrist, because the officers "thought" they were drawing a weapon?
Last edited on Thu Jun 4th, 2009 04:42 am by suntzu
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suntzu
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Posted: Thu Jun 4th, 2009 04:55 am |
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HankT wrote: suntzu wrote: You don't know why he was scared--maybe the OD officer moved his hand toward his weapon--maybe he had his hand on the weapon--the story does not say and only those who were there actually know.
I'm saying that if he was in fear of his life, and actually felt that his life was in danger--he should be set free.
The same as if some CCer (not knowing that OC is legal) who is actually in fear of his life and shoots an LAC OCer should be set free?
you would not draw your weapon if you reasonably thought someone you did not know was about to draw on you, or on someone you love?
There are levels of force--you don't shoot unless you have no choice--but we can arm chair quarterback this all day long.
a person on the street who is clearly NOT wearing a LEO uniform moves their hand to their weapon as if they are about to draw a gun on you--and you can tell when someone is about to draw, because there is no mistaking the telltale movements-- You tell me--what would you do? Do you draw out of an abundance of caution, and disarm the person and find out what is going on or do you wait it out and see what happens and risk possibly being shot?
there is no mistaking someone who is legitimately attempting to draw a gun--hand on the pistol, finger down along the side--the movements are unmistakable and only take a split second to perform--so you tell me--someone puts their hand on their gun as if they are about to draw on you--and you don't know them from Adam, and they clearly are NOT law enforcement--no uniform, no "police officer, drop your weapon" being shouted--what do you do? Draw and disarm, or wait it out?
So what do you do in the face of an armed individual that you don't know, and just came across who is acting like they are about to draw their side arm? Do you draw and then try to figure our what is happening while you are talking to the person and trying to defuse the situation before escalates further or do you wait and see if they make any other aggressive movements? So what do you do?
Last edited on Thu Jun 4th, 2009 05:05 am by suntzu
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HankT
State Researcher
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Posted: Thu Jun 4th, 2009 05:07 am |
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suntzu wrote: HankT wrote: suntzu wrote: You don't know why he was scared--maybe the OD officer moved his hand toward his weapon--maybe he had his hand on the weapon--the story does not say and only those who were there actually know.
I'm saying that if he was in fear of his life, and actually felt that his life was in danger--he should be set free.
The same as if some CCer (not knowing that OC is legal) who is actually in fear of his life and shoots an LAC OCer should be set free?
you would not draw your weapon if you reasonably thought someone you did not know was about to draw on you, or on someone you love?
There are levels of force--you don't shoot unless you have no choice--but we can arm chair quarterback this all day long.
a person on the street who is clearly NOT wearing a LEO uniform moves their hand to their weapon as if they are about to draw a gun on you--and you can tell when someone is about to draw, because there is no mistaking the telltale movements-- You tell me--what would you do? Do you draw out of an abundance of caution, and disarm the person and find out what is going on or do you wait it out and see what happens and risk possibly being shot?
there is no mistaking someone who is legitimately attempting to draw a gun--hand on the pistol, finger down along the side--the movements are unmistakable and only take a split second to perform--so you tell me--someone puts their hand on their gun as if they are about to draw on you--and you don't know them from Adam, and they clearly are NOT law enforcement--no uniform, no "police officer, drop your weapon" being shouted--what do you do? Draw and disarm, or wait it out?
"No mistaking," eh?
Well, that's comforting. Especially for all who OC. All OCers should really feel safe from that fact...
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suntzu
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Posted: Thu Jun 4th, 2009 05:19 am |
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HankT wrote: suntzu wrote: You don't know why he was scared--maybe the OD officer moved his hand toward his weapon--maybe he had his hand on the weapon--the story does not say and only those who were there actually know.
I'm saying that if he was in fear of his life, and actually felt that his life was in danger--he should be set free.
The same as if some CCer (not knowing that OC is legal) who is actually in fear of his life and shoots an LAC OCer should be set free?
as I said--we can arm chair quarterback this to death...the issue is whether or not the person was in legitimate fear for his life at the time he drew and fired. How the officer was carrying at the time is of little difference to me--if he--the OD officer provoked the fight by trying to draw for his weapon without a legitimate reason--again not saying he did provoke it, but generally speaking IF he provoked it--and hopefully it will all come out, then I say the other guy is in the right and should be set free.
IF on the other hand the 18 y/o just drew and fired because he panicked at the sight of another person with a gun--I say lock him up for life, because he is not stable enough to live in any form of "civilized society"...
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suntzu
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Posted: Thu Jun 4th, 2009 05:22 am |
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HankT wrote: suntzu wrote: HankT wrote: suntzu wrote: You don't know why he was scared--maybe the OD officer moved his hand toward his weapon--maybe he had his hand on the weapon--the story does not say and only those who were there actually know.
I'm saying that if he was in fear of his life, and actually felt that his life was in danger--he should be set free.
The same as if some CCer (not knowing that OC is legal) who is actually in fear of his life and shoots an LAC OCer should be set free?
you would not draw your weapon if you reasonably thought someone you did not know was about to draw on you, or on someone you love?
There are levels of force--you don't shoot unless you have no choice--but we can arm chair quarterback this all day long.
a person on the street who is clearly NOT wearing a LEO uniform moves their hand to their weapon as if they are about to draw a gun on you--and you can tell when someone is about to draw, because there is no mistaking the telltale movements-- You tell me--what would you do? Do you draw out of an abundance of caution, and disarm the person and find out what is going on or do you wait it out and see what happens and risk possibly being shot?
there is no mistaking someone who is legitimately attempting to draw a gun--hand on the pistol, finger down along the side--the movements are unmistakable and only take a split second to perform--so you tell me--someone puts their hand on their gun as if they are about to draw on you--and you don't know them from Adam, and they clearly are NOT law enforcement--no uniform, no "police officer, drop your weapon" being shouted--what do you do? Draw and disarm, or wait it out?
"No mistaking," eh?
Well, that's comforting. Especially for all who OC. All OCers should really feel safe from that fact...
let's try this again without the quaint remark: Question to you:so you tell me--someone puts their hand on their gun as if they are about to draw on you--and you don't know them from Adam, and they clearly are NOT law enforcement--no uniform, no "police officer, drop your weapon" being shouted--what do you do? Draw and disarm, or wait it out? Now remember--you only have a fraction of a second to decide, so don't make a mistake...
Last edited on Thu Jun 4th, 2009 05:24 am by suntzu
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HungSquirrel
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Posted: Thu Jun 4th, 2009 05:58 am |
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smttysmth02gt wrote:
Sorry dude...not following any relevance in your post whatsoever.
It's perfectly relevant. You're just not understanding the meaning. Since you're having trouble following, let me pose a question to you: should public servants be held to a higher standard of conduct than average citizens?
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Daddyo
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Posted: Thu Jun 4th, 2009 03:22 pm |
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I agree with Suntzu, this is why police officers don't need to hold security jobs. The actions one takes in uniform are far different than the action one would take out of uniform and the line becomes real blurry, real quick.
I don't think any of us, especially while OC, would try to break up a cat fight. That's a job for the cops. What if one of the ladies is armed? What if somebody sees an armed guy struggling with two women? It's pretty much asking to get shot right?
Off duty, without a badge, a police officer is just another citizen. Except they aren't used to thinking like a law abiding citizen, just like I have to force myself to see things from an officer's point of view.
Stick me in a patrol car, and I'd have myself in deep doo-doo in seconds. The rules are different for LEO's, and I don't know the rules. But it also goes vice-versa. LEO's don't know how to act if they don't have a badge. Not saying one is better than the other, or even that LEO's are held to a higher standard.
The decision making process is simply different.
Bottom line, this was bad decision making all around. The off-duty officer should have called in uniforms, or prominently displayed his badge if he was going to act as an officer.
Unless one of the ladies was the shooter's wife or GF, he should have stayed out of it as well.
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smoking357
Banned
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Posted: Thu Jun 4th, 2009 05:17 pm |
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suntzu wrote: I'm saying that if he was in fear of his life, and actually felt that his life was in danger--he should be set free. The same as it would be if a LEO became nervous, and thought a person was reaching for a weapon and opened fire
The same standard that should apply to the People is a cop gets nervous and reaches for his gun against us.
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no carry permit ?
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Posted: Thu Jun 4th, 2009 11:39 pm |
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smttysmth02gt wrote: hansolo wrote: Link please, troll.
Not a troll, just didn't feel the need to put a link. In the future, you may want to validate insults.
Don't take that as an insult ! It's a compliment when they call you a troll. It means you think for yourself and don't see eye to eye with every thug on here that hides behind his gun. You obviously carry for protection, some of these clowns are all about being the "big man" and intimidating people. You see people post of how funny it is when they scare someone on the street, that says a lot about the mentality of some here. Get ready for bans on open carry, these guys are bring it about with their aggrogance.
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8th ID
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Posted: Fri Jun 5th, 2009 01:17 am |
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Don't take that as an insult ! It's a compliment when they call you a troll. It means you think for yourself and don't see eye to eye with every thug on here that hides behind his gun. You obviously carry for protection, some of these clowns are all about being the "big man" and intimidating people. You see people post of how funny it is when they scare someone on the street, that says a lot about the mentality of some here. Get ready for bans on open carry, these guys are bring it about with their aggrogance.
First let's learn how to spell or add 'ing' to complete the sentence correctly. My father and all 5 of his brothers are veterans, my brother just got back from Afghanistan where he LED 45 combat missions with NO casualties, I'm a veteran of the first Gulf War-and if I want to walk down the street in the U.S. with a pistol OC'd, then that is exactly what I'm going to do. I refuse to 'hide' when exercising a legal, constitutionally protected RIGHT. My question to you: What other rights are you willing to let slip away? I mean well let's take freedom of speech-what part of that are you willing to let go just so you can keep a portion of it? Here's my interpretation of all the OC haters-"Please don't OC, Please don't exercise you 2nd Amendment, because I'm afraid of Nanci Pelosi and the Brady People."
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no carry permit ?
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Posted: Fri Jun 5th, 2009 01:33 am |
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I open carry daily. The point is some on here believe their rights supercede private property rights, post "amusing" stories about startling or scaring people because they were carrying, and conduct themselves like neighborhood bullies. This does nothing for our RIGHTS.
Not sure why you posted of your military experience. None of the military action you posted about had anything to do with defending our freedom. You were just an Nazi like invader of another sovereign nation. Every dead American solider that invaded and brutalized Iraq got exactly what he deserved for being a blind, baby killing follower.
So spare me your self indulgent hero worship. You are no hero, our brutal troops slaughtered over 800,000 Iraqi civilians.
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HankT
State Researcher
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Posted: Fri Jun 5th, 2009 01:35 am |
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8th ID wrote:I refuse to 'hide' when exercising a legal, constitutionally protected RIGHT.
Do you have a CWP?
Have you ever carried concealed?
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8th ID
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Posted: Fri Jun 5th, 2009 01:46 am |
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no carry permit ? wrote:
You were just an Nazi like invader of another sovereign nation. Every dead American solider that invaded and brutalized Iraq got exactly what he deserved for being a blind, baby killing follower.
So spare me your self indulgent hero worship. You are no hero, our brutal troops slaughtered over 800,000 Iraqi civilians.
WOW. Nazi? Good One-you sound just like Pelosi, Sorros and the like. And I defend you right to say what you want. Funny, huh? I'm sure you must have gone to Harvard or Yale. I think you need to rent the movie "A Few Good Men", because people like you want and need protecting, but won't do it themselves. That's OK, the real men and women will still look after you and the rest of the cowards...it's what they do...regardless of right and wrong...
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8th ID
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Posted: Fri Jun 5th, 2009 01:49 am |
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HankT wrote: 8th ID wrote:I refuse to 'hide' when exercising a legal, constitutionally protected RIGHT.
Do you have a CWP?
Have you ever carried concealed?
In KY it's CCDW, but I know what you mean. I'm in a waiting pattern (paperwork, etc.) Here it's legal to carry OC without any permits.
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HankT
State Researcher
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Posted: Fri Jun 5th, 2009 01:53 am |
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8th ID wrote: HankT wrote: 8th ID wrote:I refuse to 'hide' when exercising a legal, constitutionally protected RIGHT.
Do you have a CWP?
Have you ever carried concealed?
In KY it's CCDW, but I know what you mean. I'm in a waiting pattern (paperwork, etc.) Here it's legal to carry OC without any permits.
Won't you be violating your principle of not "hiding" your weapon when exercising a RIGHT to bear arms if you carry concealed?
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suntzu
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Posted: Fri Jun 5th, 2009 02:40 am |
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HankT wrote: 8th ID wrote: HankT wrote: 8th ID wrote:I refuse to 'hide' when exercising a legal, constitutionally protected RIGHT.
Do you have a CWP?
Have you ever carried concealed?
In KY it's CCDW, but I know what you mean. I'm in a waiting pattern (paperwork, etc.) Here it's legal to carry OC without any permits.
Won't you be violating your principle of not "hiding" your weapon when exercising a RIGHT to bear arms if you carry concealed? Ok HankT, you didn't answer the question I asked you earlier so here it is again:
so you tell me--you're walking along and someone you don't know puts their hand on their gun as if they are about to draw on you--clearly they are addressing you, talkig to you and they put their hand ON their gun as if they are about to draw--and you don't know them from Adam, and they clearly are NOT law enforcement--no uniform, no "police officer, drop your weapon" being shouted--what do you do? Draw and attempt to disarm them and then figure out what is happening, or wait it out and hope they don't shoot you?
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8th ID
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Posted: Fri Jun 5th, 2009 03:03 am |
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Won't you be violating your principle of not "hiding" your weapon when exercising a RIGHT to bear arms if you carry concealed?
My RIGHT is to carry it how I CHOOSE. I don't make my principles based on how others would like me to CHOOSE to carry. And I'm not afraid of being confronted about my RIGHT to carry OC. You see, I feel it is a duty for me to stand up for my RIGHT and not cower from the possibility of being confronted by an anti. That said: here is how I do it-I'm always presentable, clean shaven, collared shirt tucked in and I will not and do not argue with anyone about ANYTHING. My mom raised a polite man. I always take copies of KY Gun Laws with me to pass out to the uneducated.
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suntzu
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Posted: Fri Jun 5th, 2009 03:05 am |
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no carry permit ? wrote: I open carry daily. The point is some on here believe their rights supercede private property rights, post "amusing" stories about startling or scaring people because they were carrying, and conduct themselves like neighborhood bullies. This does nothing for our RIGHTS.
Not sure why you posted of your military experience. None of the military action you posted about had anything to do with defending our freedom. You were just an Nazi like invader of another sovereign nation. Every dead American solider that invaded and brutalized Iraq got exactly what he deserved for being a blind, baby killing follower.
So spare me your self indulgent hero worship. You are no hero, our brutal troops slaughtered over 800,000 Iraqi civilians.
1. If property owners/business owners want to keep armed citizens out of their businesses then all they have to do is PUT UP A SIGN that is LEGAL under applicable state law. People like you are pathetic--you claim to support the 2nd Amendment, and then turn around and accuse people that you don't even know of only being interested in "intimidation"--the police do enough of that against the citizens--we don't have to add to it. Business owners who don't want gun owners in their businesses carrying have a double standard--they think that no one other than LE should even be allowed to carry a gun--and then they turn straight around and depend ON PEOPLE WITH GUNS to protect them, just after they decide to throw out law abiding citizens with guns...In my opinion businesses have become far too independent--they have forgotten that without our money--they go out of business..they need our money more than we need their products...and I am not above boycotting business owners who choose to try and restrict my Constitutional rights while extending a double standard to law enforcement. If business owners want to restrict guns--fine, they should (1)get rid of any guns they have on their person or in their business (2)prohibit citizens from carrying and (3) prohibit law enforcement from carrying at all times while on their property. Let's not have a double standard---if you want to prohibit guns--prohibit ALL guns, regardless of who carries--citizen or LEO...
2. While I don't support the Iraq war for a number of reasons--my venom is reserved for the gutless, spineless politicians who are selling out this country to the foreign interests every day. You calling the soldiers in Iraq babykillers is exactly the same thing that happened in Vietnam. The sad thing is--the soldiers have exactly two choices--they can all stand together as one and and simply quit and come home, or they can continue to fight--and I simply don't see the soldiers all quitting as one.
If YOU don't like the way they are fighting--then why don't YOU pick up a rifle and go show them how it is done?
3. I have no issue whatsoever in calling the Iraq war what it is--it is about money, it is about oil, and it is about reconstruction contracts--money, money and more money. It was also about settling a vendetta against Hussein. That said--and I normally don't say this--but collateral damage happens in war--that is why it is called war. This is an unfortunate fact of life--get used to it. Now get this straight--I do not support the war in Iraq, I think the entire Bush whitehouse, the speaker of the House and the rest of them who have sold this country to the special interests and the big businesses and the foreign powers should all be arrested and put on trial for a variety of offenses-but I can support the individual soldier to an extent without supporting the wars they are involved in.
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Pagan
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Jun 5th, 2009 03:30 am |
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| If the off duty /ununiformed cop was in the mix of a fight, even just trying to break it up, and this kid sees this unidentified cop, put his hand on his weapon to stop the fight, how the hell is this other kid gonna know that this unidentified person with a gun is not about to start shooting these girls for whatever reason, or just start shooting the other guy, or maybe the cop is dating one of the girls and wants to protect her, the possibilities are endless and the suspect has a reasonable defense, sounds like the cop f*cked up, sorry but it just sounds that way to me.
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