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XD-GEM
Activist Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 30th, 2008 11:35 pm |
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brokenarrows wrote: Trolley square tradgedy...perhaps could have been ended sooner IF persons with guns present or more of them sooner. May not have happened at all we will never know cause true events dont offer pause and rewind functions.
IIRC, Trolley Square incident was halted by someone CCing despite the signs at the mall. The guy was an off-duty cop, but the sign would have applied to him anyway. He cornered the shooter until SLC PD showed up and killed the guy.
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brokenarrows
Member
| Joined: | Tue Jul 29th, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 152 |
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Posted: Wed Jul 30th, 2008 11:50 pm |
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Last edited on Fri Aug 1st, 2008 01:03 am by brokenarrows
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brokenarrows
Member
| Joined: | Tue Jul 29th, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 152 |
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Posted: Wed Jul 30th, 2008 11:56 pm |
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Last edited on Fri Aug 1st, 2008 01:05 am by brokenarrows
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DreQo
State Researcher
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Posted: Thu Jul 31st, 2008 12:54 am |
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It's very frustrating when a few mistakes and a few bad people make an entire group look bad. But alas, it is human nature.
Might I state simply that I have felt the concern that these two fellows have expressed. Some of the people on this forum should NOT be representing us, directly or otherwise. They seem to fit very well into that stereotypical psycho, aggressive gun nut mold.
On the other hand, I know for a fact that the majority of those that open carry are responsible citizens with good intentions. As far as how to make that clear to others, I do not know.
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brokenarrows
Member
| Joined: | Tue Jul 29th, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 152 |
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Posted: Thu Jul 31st, 2008 01:10 am |
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Last edited on Fri Aug 1st, 2008 01:05 am by brokenarrows
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DreQo
State Researcher
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Posted: Thu Jul 31st, 2008 01:53 am |
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brokenarrows wrote: DreQo wrote: It's very frustrating when a few mistakes and a few bad people make an entire group look bad. But alas, it is human nature.
Might I state simply that I have felt the concern that these two fellows have expressed. Some of the people on this forum should NOT be representing us, directly or otherwise. They seem to fit very well into that stereotypical psycho, aggressive gun nut mold.
On the other hand, I know for a fact that the majority of those that open carry are responsible citizens with good intentions. As far as how to make that clear to others, I do not know.
thank you! common sence prevails for a moment
Common sense is vastly prevalent on this forum, which is why many who have replied to this thread have done so in a very defensive nature. We plea for people like CCWONLY to simply spend time on the forum in the hopes that he will see how many intelligent, mature, respecting people there truly are here.
Again I say, however, that there are a minority here that are less than intelligent, sometimes immature, and not always respecting towards themselves or others. I personally try to just let them be, however. I feel strongly that so long as they don't tread on me, I've no reason to tread on them. I think a whole lot of the members of this forum feel that way as well. That's part of the American spirit, after all.
The bottom line is rather simple. Are there people that strap a gun to their belt and go out looking for trouble? Yes. Are some of those people members of this forum? Yes. Do they represent the majority of this forum, or the open carry movement in general? Absolutely not.
The concern for these misbehaviors is valid, and discussions like these will perhaps help the matter. I don't believe CCWONLY's intention was to help us, but he has. He has brought to light a legitimate problem, and given us the opportunity to ponder ways to solve it. His approach to the situation was cowardly, but fortunately cowards don't stick around. Brokenarrows, on the other hand, has stayed to converse, and I commend him for that.
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XD-GEM
Activist Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 31st, 2008 02:10 am |
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Because you have not indicated a location, I'm going to venture a guess that you're in Utah, owing to your citations of events there. I'm not familiar with Utah laws, but here in Louisiana, an employee does not have legal standing to ask you to leave a business. Only the manager can do that here. Once the manager asks you to leave, you must comply or it is trespassing, as you have indicated.
This is a good legal setup in Louisiana because, in keeping with your example, Walmart's national policy is to defer to local law as regards carrying weapons CC or OC in their stores. Many line-level employees may not be familiar with either the policy or with the local laws and could cause an unecessary incident by confronting someone who is carrying. It simply makes sense that an executive-level person would be the one to make the call, as they are presumed to have knowledge of company policy and state laws regarding their business.
As to your impression that people on this board simply want to cause a confrontation, well, I'm sorry it seems that way to you. That is certainly not my reason for joining in the discussions here, and I don't get that impression from most of the discussions I have read thusfar. When stories of confrontation are posted, I generally find that they are more of a "don't let this happen to you" type. Those stories have helped me be more aware of the places I might want to avoid and of the laws that I need to know.
Constantly reporting the fact that most people on this board rarely have a bad encounter while carrying would make for a lengthy, but boring, forum. It's the same reason that the newscasts on television don't report the number of airplanes that didn't crash each day or the number of defensive uses of a handgun that did not result in any injuries - they aren't very interesting stories.
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Jim675
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 31st, 2008 02:58 am |
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Well said.
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imperialism2024
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 31st, 2008 04:13 am |
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I'll admit that I just read about halfway down the first page and stopped.
You've read the site to support the conclusion you want to have.
Ever since I conceived the idea of my carrying a gun for self-defense, it never felt natural to want to conceal. Even before I stumbled upon OCDO, I had made the decision to openly carry once I got my LTCF. I didn't know what it was called at the time, and didn't take it to be so controversial a topic as it actually is. It just seemed the natural thing to do with a gun. Peaceable citizens don't need to hide their guns... right? At least that's how I grew up thinking.
Now, I continue to support this line of thinking as the primary reason why I occasionally open carry now, and will do so 24/7 once I get my LTCF. It's just the way guns should be carried. Call it emotional, call it antiquated, but it's the main reason why it's my chosen method.
There's also the benefit of deterrence. I carry to stop a threat, not to assassinate someone who has completed a crime. The more violent confrontations I can prevent, the more I have succeeded in the former goal.
A tertiary benefit is exposure. Sure, I might turn off some people to guns by openly carrying... but chances are that these people are already turned off to guns. And either way, they are being desensitized to them. Every time a gun-hater sees a peaceable open carrier, he will at least subconsciously normalize the idea of carrying a gun.
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deepdiver
Activist Member
| Joined: | Mon Apr 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Missouri USA |
| Posts: | 3799 |
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Posted: Thu Jul 31st, 2008 05:29 am |
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Brokenarrows, to follow up on some of DreQo's points:
1) Welcome to the forum and I too commend you on sticking around to discuss these matters instead of hit and run posting as people such CCWONLY.
2) After you first posted in this thread I, given the tenor of your statements, post count and newbie status, I decided to reviews all posts you have made thus far. I noted that you have only previously posted in the Utah sub-forum and that you only actually engaged in conversation in 2 threads and otherwise simply cut and pasted responses in a few others. Furthermore, the two threads you actually engaged in were rather emotional threads with much reaction given the nature of the events discussed. In other words not representative of the forum in general. I do note from this thread that you have obviously perused other areas of the forum now so I assume you noted that there are 8 active sub-forums plus 51 state/DC sub-forums. You cannot base your opinion of the entire forum on a few threads in one state's sub-forum. Stick around a while, read more, engage more, DISCUSS, rather than rant and I think some of your opinions with change and others will evolve.
3) You make reference to the wisdom in Mike's post in response to a certain encounter. Mike's thoughts in that thread are more representative of the memberships' behavior than other matters to which you replied to or posted about.
4) You positively comment on DreQo's comment as "common sense prevailing". I'd feel comfortable stating that more than 50% of the active membership would agree with what he said and would have said something similar, albeit perhaps not as eloquently.
5) The most radical posts and ideas and most aggressive perspectives tend to come from either a very few number of established more radically opinioned members or from newer members. The newer members who are more confrontational with authority or radical in their opinions most often seem to have their aggressiveness tamed by experience in the world OCing, and by discussions with people on the forum who have gone before or who have cooler heads about issues. Those who don't mostly leave or end up marginalized. However, it is a process and takes time. The wiser, calmer members on the forum tend to be very patient with slowly helping them see the light as it were. Those who do neither join the ranks of our small group of more radically opinioned members.
6) Remember that every movement from our Founders split from England to the civil rights movement, has all sorts of people and they are all important to success. There are those who agree in principal but won't take action until it is "safe", those who are more talk than action, those who are the "wise old men" who bring historical perspective, those who are full of energy to organize and petition, those who lead by example, those who put themselves out there in harms way to challenge the status quo, those who are willing to stand up and say the emperor has no clothes and yes, those who foment radicalism and rebellion. Most fall in several categories. Most will be happy with the outcome. Some will not. But we all must work together to make any headway against those who opress us.
7) Not everything is what it appears at first glance. Many of us have been talking to each other on the forum for a year or more. Many members have met in real life through various OC events and have become friends outside the forum. Because of this, there are inside jokes, off handed comments that the "uninitiated" may not understand as intended, occasionally comments that are not as well explaine as could be because others will know what the poster meant, etc. You know, the sorts of things that friends share that someone new to the group has to get to know. Becaues the majority of our members tend to be polite and well spoken, if something doesn't appear to be, ask instead of assuming.
8) Relax, have fun and get to know everyone. If you approach the forum looking for things to disagree with, you will find many things and spend all your time here arguing. There are posts every single day that I do not agree with. But then again, in a large group of my friends in a given evening, there is inevitably something someone says that I don't agree with so why would internet friends be any different. There are also posts every day from which I learn something new. There are people who I look forward to reading, and others not so much. But in the end, there are mostly a lot of good, law abiding, hard working, caring people on this forum who are professionals and blue collar and married and single and parents and childless and black and white and asian and indian and highly educated and not so educated and young and old and really a cross section of America who share a belief in the Constitution, the rights it protects and to varying extents an appreciation or enjoyment of firearms. Give them the same chance and respect that you want from them.
/takes soapbox and goes home
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Citizen
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 31st, 2008 05:38 am |
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deepdiver wrote: SNIP /takes soapbox and goes home
Keep it handy. In fact get a taller one.
That was well said. It wouldn't hurt to keep that speech handy for the next person.
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Comp-tech
State Researcher
| Joined: | Tue Apr 10th, 2007 |
| Location: | Alabama USA |
| Posts: | 936 |
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Posted: Thu Jul 31st, 2008 06:26 am |
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Citizen wrote: deepdiver wrote: SNIP /takes soapbox and goes home
Keep it handy. In fact get a taller one.
That was well said. It wouldn't hurt to keep that speech handy for the next person.
I second Citizen...good job deepdiver.
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protector84
Member
| Joined: | Sat Oct 6th, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 260 |
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Posted: Thu Jul 31st, 2008 06:40 am |
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I believe I have a common-sense approach to open carry. First, I believe that personal safety outweighs someone else's comfort and besides you are actually keeping them safer by carrying. I am referring to BOTH open carry and concealed carry. It is always better to carry your gun concealed than not at all. I open carry in all cases with only two exceptions: where it is prohibited or where I will personally feel uncomfortable about open carrying. I prefer open carry because of its deterrance value against crime, the opportunity to educate people, and the ability to quickly draw and fire it if needed. I do not partially conceal my gun meaning I don't just drop my shirt over it because an observant person can still see something through the shirt and the wind or bending over or something like that could accidently expose it and create a scene. So I either carry fully openly or fully concealed. When I carry concealed, for safety reasons, I unload it (unchamber) but keep the magazine in and it goes in my pocket with the shirt long enough to cover the pocket. That way if the trigger gets pulled by accident, no shot will be fired as it is unchambered. I don't carry a fully loaded gun that I cannot see at all times. I consider this a step down in terms of my personal safety because by concealed-carry, I first have to get the gun out, then pull the slide back, and then fire it vs. simply drawing and firing.
As I said above, it is better to carry concealed than not at all. If a place prohibits carry, I either carry concealed or take my business elsewhere. That doesn't mean I don't try to educate the management anyway but they are more likely to listen while I am still abiding by their policy vs. breaking it right in front of them. One place told me that they were fine with carrying but only concealed. I usually do take my business elsewhere but I do occasionally go there and he knows I am carrying but this is still some progress vs. no progress. As to places I am uncomfortable with, certain environments are so sensitive that if it starts making me personally uncomfortable, I will just conceal it because the purpose for me being there is to get something done, not scare people. For instance, I regularly open carry at the bank when I am in the teller line and they are cool with it. However, if I am going to the vault to get into my safe deposit box, I will have it concealed. Schools, churches, and workplaces tend to be sensitive areas to guns and may not have posted signs but carrying would result in a scene, so again conceal it. College campuses for instance may have posted signs on their buildings but no signs on the school grounds themselves. So if you are just trekking through the campus or picking someone up, it makes little sense to create a scene and have to deal with their security or the cops.
So to sum up my points, open carry is preferred because it is safer due to its deterrence value, quick draw, and ability to see your gun at all times. Concealed carry is the second best option but is valuable in those sensitive situations and areas where you can still protect yourself but without creating a scene or getting so much attention that you cannot enjoy yourself. You can create a win for both because you can still educate people but just in different ways. My workplace prohibits firearms yet they know I own firearms and have a concealed-carry permit. That doesn't mean I cannot strike up educational conversations about carrying while abiding (or pretending to abide) by their policies. Last but not least, I don't think carrying is a one-size-fits-all. Police, security, and military all will use open carry or concealed carry in different situations. Sometimes it just makes since to carry openly and other times just makes sense to carry concealed.
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Maineiac
Member
| Joined: | Thu Jul 31st, 2008 |
| Location: | Dexter, Maine USA |
| Posts: | 6 |
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Posted: Thu Jul 31st, 2008 10:34 am |
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I'm not sure if something like this was brought up earlier in this thread... but right now Open Carrying is my only option besides not carrying at all as I'm unemployed.. The concealed carry permit itself costs $35 but the approved handgun safety courses cost about $95. Plan to open carry for the first time when I get my S&W Model 19 off layaway in August or September, I'll let you guys know how it goes then. 
Last edited on Thu Jul 31st, 2008 10:58 am by Maineiac
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Grapeshot
Activist Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 31st, 2008 12:25 pm |
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Maineiac wrote: I'm not sure if something like this was brought up earlier in this thread... but right now Open Carrying is my only option besides not carrying at all as I'm unemployed.. The concealed carry permit itself costs $35 but the approved handgun safety courses cost about $95. Plan to open carry for the first time when I get my S&W Model 19 off layaway in August or September, I'll let you guys know how it goes then.
Welcome to our world. You logged into a heavy thread for your first visit - lots of good info throughout.
Yata hey
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rodbender
Founder's Club Member
| Joined: | Mon Jun 23rd, 2008 |
| Location: | Elgin, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 732 |
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Online
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Posted: Thu Jul 31st, 2008 01:55 pm |
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| Oh, CCWONLY, where are you?
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AbNo
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 31st, 2008 02:12 pm |
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It's called a drive-by troll, Bender.
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DreQo
State Researcher
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Posted: Thu Jul 31st, 2008 02:18 pm |
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AbNo wrote: It's called a drive-by troll, Bender.
Maybe it was Hank...  (whoops, there's one of those inside jokes  ).
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Grapeshot
Activist Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 31st, 2008 02:41 pm |
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DreQo wrote: AbNo wrote: It's called a drive-by troll, Bender.
Maybe it was Hank... (whoops, there's one of those inside jokes ).
Maybe he or she was only casting!
Yata hey
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Venator
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 31st, 2008 02:55 pm |
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brokenarrows wrote: DreQo wrote: It's very frustrating when a few mistakes and a few bad people make an entire group look bad. But alas, it is human nature.
Might I state simply that I have felt the concern that these two fellows have expressed. Some of the people on this forum should NOT be representing us, directly or otherwise. They seem to fit very well into that stereotypical psycho, aggressive gun nut mold.
On the other hand, I know for a fact that the majority of those that open carry are responsible citizens with good intentions. As far as how to make that clear to others, I do not know.
thank you! common sence prevails for a moment
I like this qoute on common sense.
On common sense: Randy Wayne White wrote in his novel Captiva.
“It is a character standard from folklore in which “good old common sense” is an essential bedrock ingredient. But too often “common sense” is a safe harbor of ignorance and an excuse for intellectual laziness. They don’t need the facts because they already know the truth—their common sense has spared them the effort of investigation or thought.
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