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SkipCoryell
Activist Member
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Posted: Mon Aug 18th, 2008 10:38 pm |
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Hi guys. I've been writing a 3-part series on open carry for MCRGO and have been getting a lot of email about it, most of it favorable.
Please read the email below about a man concerned about being disarmed while carrying openly. What are your thoughts and comments.
Skip Coryell
http://www.mwtac.com
http://www.skipcoryell.com
Skip, I just read your 2nd installment on this topic in the MCRGO newsletter today and I too fall into column #3: Support with some reservation. For me, here is my reservation to open carry that I do not believe you have touched upon just yet... Someone is going to get attacked and/or killed BECAUSE they decided to open carry! When you have a gun on your belt, in a way, you are making yourself a "target" for attack from the bold criminal who; 1) wants a gun; 2). feels emboldened by their surroundings or the drugs running through their bloodstream (or BOTH!) to think they could "take it" from you fairly easily... When a weapon is concealed, neither of the above applies... Since none of us has eyes on the back of our heads, the task of taking an openly carried firearm would NOT be a terribly difficult undertaking... One quick blow to the back of the head with a blunt instrument would be all that would be necessary for said open carrier to be relinquished of their weapon, and then possibly even killed with the same. Plain and simple, unless you are in a group of people who are also carrying weapons, concealed or otherwise, you are making yourself a HUGE target for just such an attack...
Just so you know, I am 6' 1" tall and weight @ 230 lbs. I know that I can handle myself pretty well in a "fist fight", but I would NEVER choose to open-carry unless I was in a group of armed people as described above or unless I was in a controlled environment where ANY person that I should come across would automatically be considered an adversary (like if I were guarding a house or a building while armed, etc...). I also cannot see any correlation between what I describe above and to what a uniformed LEO experiences when they open carry... First of all, LEO's have the liberty of drawing their weapon when they even just "feel" threatened by questionable characters. This is legal for them to do as they perform their duty as a LEO. Private citizens, even carrying in the open, CANNOT draw their weapon simply because "nefarious looking people" are in close proximity. Second, LEO's usually have a partner with them when on foot patrols in questionable areas. LEO's usually even have partners when on patrol in cars at night, because of the higher possibilities of physical confrontations at those times. Neither of these are situations we private citizens have the luxury of... Finally, even LEOs DO get stripped of their weapons a lot more frequently than we all would like to admit (even ONCE is too much if you ask me). If this can happen to a cop who has also had some training in hand to hand combat, how easy would it be to disarm "Joe Six-pack" when he is all alone, walking past a group of gang-bangers or thieves...? Skip, I am a very staunch supporter of ALL THINGS "2nd Amendment" (I personally own 2- .50BMG rifles). Believe me, I am also an "in your face" kind of guy when it comes to dealing with the liberal anti-gun types too... But, you had better be careful with what you suggest people do with this open carry topic... Just because "we CAN" open carry, doesn't mean "we SHOULD"... Sincerely, name witheld
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Felid`Maximus
Activist Member
| Joined: | Mon Nov 12th, 2007 |
| Location: | Reno, Nevada USA |
| Posts: | 897 |
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Offline
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Posted: Mon Aug 18th, 2008 10:58 pm |
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Other than law enforcement, nobody has ever tried to disarm me.
It's more probable that a guy will try to steal your gun from your car when its abandoned there due to a gun free zone, than for them to steal it off of you when it is on your person, risking their life.
The person who wrote to you seems to imply that you are more likely to be mugged when carrying since the mugger knows you have valuable items. Contrarily, I think you are much less likely to be mugged because the mugger has good cause to fear resistance.
Might it be possible that someone risks their life to try and disarm someone who is armed? Sure. But I think that is the rare case. This is all just hypothetical and I have no statistics, but I would imagine that for every 1 mugger who is encouraged to attack you because he sees you have a gun, 99 muggers wouldn't think it was worth the risk. And that 1 mugger might have attacked you anyway for other valuables he thinks you might've had, and in that case its still better to be armed than unarmed.
There is a reason muggers often mug people in dark alleys. They want to reduce their risks.
Last edited on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 11:15 pm by Felid`Maximus
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SkipCoryell
Activist Member
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Posted: Mon Aug 18th, 2008 11:22 pm |
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My uninformed opinion is that open carry will deter everyone except those on drugs or insane. I'm hoping to get a better idea from this thread.
Skip
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Sonora Rebel
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Aug 18th, 2008 11:56 pm |
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"He who defends against all, defends nothing.": Sun Tzu Cops get their guns yanked while trying to subdue a perp for the most part... or get complacent in their presence. 'Seen that too. They don't wanna go to the joint. They get pissed/scared... 'n most perps ain't right in the head to begin with.
As for John Q... the perp knows that person ain't the 'system'. He knows John Q don't have the same restraints and his 'job' ain't on the line if he screws up. The perp might even figure John Q with a pistol on his hip is potentially crazier than he is. John Q will KILL HIM most likely if attacked. I've watched enuff 'COPS' to know that cops won't shoot... 'n then only as a last resort. John Q will shoot as First resort 'cause he's not in the 'arrest' business. He's in the self defense business. Having been a cop... back when shootin' these scumbags who produced weapons or was a freakin' monster that wasn't goin' down for Chuck Norris... was a given. I wasn't on the street to get hurt. It was never personal. I capped two of these goons during that time... 'n justly so. 'Word gets around... They know you. It's all about 'respect' in the 'hood. They know you ain't gonna puss out if they break bad. It has a 'calming' effect. They might even have heard yer a combat vet... not to be intimidated by their 'signifyin'.
The perp don't know John Q... he/she's just a mark. They go for the easy... always! Wander around with yer head up yer ass... 'n you're a mark. Keep yer head onna swivel... maintain 'situational awareness' (no matter what you're doin') 'n the perp will seek somethin' less risky.
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SkipCoryell
Activist Member
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Posted: Tue Aug 19th, 2008 12:01 am |
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makes sense. sounds logical.
Thanks for the input and the benefit of your experience.
Skip
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Bebop
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Aug 19th, 2008 12:12 am |
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I have never been disarmed. I haven't even been asked about the gun yet. My thoughts would be that for one if a LEO ever asks to have your weapon when you have done nothing wrong verbally object to the officer sensing your weapon (loud enough so that people around you can hear) but politely also. If they were to ask again tell them I will not resist you taking the gun but I again object to your illegal secure of the firearm. DO NOT RESIST A LEO WHO WANTS TO DISARM YOU. If you have a voice recorder use it. If not as soon as is possible write down every detail about what happened as possible. Get badge numbers, car numbers, witness contact info, and start an investigation with the police. Just be courteous because after all most LEO's only want to go home at the end of the day and not get in a shootout. Keep in mind that this is only if you were confronted while just walking around not doing anything. If they stop you for reasons other than just because you have a gun, I tell them you have a pistol and where it is located so there is not surprise to the officer. Then ask them how they would like to proceed. But that’s just me.
Now since he is talking about criminals. It is hard to say if open carrying has ever caused people to be attacked. I would think common since would say that not a lot of people are going to try to pull something to someone who has a gun, but you always have that nut that will do anything to do harm to people. There are stories about would be robbers walking in seeing that there are people there with guns and leaving. You also have the studies done by FBI and others who interview criminals who say that a big deterrent for them is knowing that the person could have a gun. Now that is could have a gun but I could imagine that is close to the same, if not more, as criminals who know you have a gun.
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SkipCoryell
Activist Member
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Posted: Tue Aug 19th, 2008 02:14 am |
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No one has asked me about my gun either. It's rather anti-climactic.
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Task Force 16
Campaign Veteran
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Posted: Tue Aug 19th, 2008 03:34 am |
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I've been disarmed several times. Sneeky females would get past my defenses, relieve me of my money, and force me to assume various possitions, and.....
OOOOOOOOHHH wait, you're talking about firearms. 
I haven't started carrying yet. Will have to get back to you on that.
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Aran
Banned
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Posted: Wed Aug 20th, 2008 01:44 am |
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Twice.
Both times they were in uniform. Only once were they at least polite about it.
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marshaul
Activist Member
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Posted: Wed Aug 20th, 2008 02:21 am |
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You should have made the poll options:
1. No
2. Yes, by a LEO.
3. Yes, by someone other than a LEO.
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SkipCoryell
Activist Member
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Posted: Wed Aug 20th, 2008 02:54 am |
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| Please assume it's by a nonLEO.
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Grapeshot
Activist Member
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Posted: Wed Aug 20th, 2008 04:30 am |
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I have made a very simple direct challange to this question for years.
Somebody espousing the therory that OCing makes you a "first target" for the BG, please show me one documented incident in the fifty states with a cite - something verifiable - where this has happened. Same for civilian OC gun grabs - and I always recommend wearing a good retention holster - most of us OCers do + tactical awarness. It's a good combination and it works.
If one or two are found, you will only provide numbers to show that OCers are at an extremely small risk. To compute this of course would require that the number of OCers be known, the number of such outings and the hours carried in this fashion. To my knowledge, nobody has done a valid study on this matter.
We have had many, many postings on this site as well as several well known and previously referenced studies that suggest/conclude that the mere presence of a weapon has detered a crime. A CC weapon must be drawn or displayed in some fashion to have this effect. An OC weapon does not - it is already "displayed."
Most BGs do not want confrontational responses - they want easy, controllable victims. Whether you OC or CC or some of both, you are taking responsibility for your safety and that of loved ones. Congratulations, well done!
Yata hey
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rmodel65
Regular Member
| Joined: | Mon Apr 28th, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 322 |
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Offline
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Posted: Wed Aug 20th, 2008 05:10 am |
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i had an incident at denny's where the officer demanded i disarm and put the gun in the car. I refused and told them to get a supervisor. thanks to a letter from i havent had a problem since then  http://www.georgiacarry.com/county/glynn_carry/
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SkipCoryell
Activist Member
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Posted: Wed Aug 20th, 2008 12:38 pm |
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rmodel65 wrote: i had an incident at denny's where the officer demanded i disarm and put the gun in the car. I refused and told them to get a supervisor. thanks to a letter from i havent had a problem since then http://www.georgiacarry.com/county/glynn_carry/
I've read the letter with interest. So what was the outcome?
Skip
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Grapeshot
Activist Member
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Posted: Wed Aug 20th, 2008 12:54 pm |
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SkipCoryell wrote: rmodel65 wrote: i had an incident at denny's where the officer demanded i disarm and put the gun in the car. I refused and told them to get a supervisor. thanks to a letter from i havent had a problem since then http://www.georgiacarry.com/county/glynn_carry/
I've read the letter with interest. So what was the outcome?
Skip
Yes please, what results. If this is on going, just let us know that.
Yata hey
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Sonora Rebel
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Aug 20th, 2008 05:38 pm |
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Aran wrote: Twice.
Both times they were in uniform. Only once were they at least polite about it.
PA is legal open carry... 'cept for Philly (still) I think. What's the story on that?
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rmodel65
Regular Member
| Joined: | Mon Apr 28th, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 322 |
| Status: |
Offline
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Posted: Wed Aug 20th, 2008 06:02 pm |
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Grapeshot wrote: SkipCoryell wrote: rmodel65 wrote: i had an incident at denny's where the officer demanded i disarm and put the gun in the car. I refused and told them to get a supervisor. thanks to a letter from i havent had a problem since then http://www.georgiacarry.com/county/glynn_carry/
I've read the letter with interest. So what was the outcome?
Skip
Yes please, what results. If this is on going, just let us know that.
Yata hey
no problems more problems from the county police but also no response. i guess they didnt want to admit to anything because of liability??
what's strange is ive never had a problem from the city police
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Grapeshot
Activist Member
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Posted: Wed Aug 20th, 2008 08:34 pm |
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rmodel65 wrote: Grapeshot wrote: SkipCoryell wrote: rmodel65 wrote: i had an incident at denny's where the officer demanded i disarm and put the gun in the car. I refused and told them to get a supervisor. thanks to a letter from i havent had a problem since then http://www.georgiacarry.com/county/glynn_carry/
I've read the letter with interest. So what was the outcome?
Skip
Yes please, what results. If this is on going, just let us know that.
Yata hey
no problems more problems from the county police but also no response. i guess they didnt want to admit to anything because of liability??
what's strange is ive never had a problem from the city police
Might be time to go the extra mile. They have no reason to change if they can get away with ignoring you. Consider certified letter, address the city/county council and when all else fails - legal action. Unfortunately it sometimes takes stronger methods to get even a simple response.
Yata hey
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DenWin
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Aug 21st, 2008 12:57 pm |
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| I'm of the opinion that if you have the option to OC, do it. My military experience always says make your self look like a hard target, not a soft target, and the harder the better. But that's just my two cents.
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N00blet45
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Aug 21st, 2008 03:39 pm |
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Bebop wrote: If they were to ask again tell them I will not resist you taking the gun but I again object to your illegal secure of the firearm.
I'm not going to tell them what my next course of action will be. If Johnny Law reaches for my pistol I'm going to treat it as I would some crazy person going for my gun. It's not like I'm going to draw on him but I'm not just going to let him take my gun.
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