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TheMrMitch
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 11th, 2008 02:09 am |
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Full Auto...EXCELLENT summation/comparison, sir!
I have a concealed permit, can carry open in Kentucky and am a sworn Corrections Officer. I reckon it's the best of all worlds.
I turn my badge inward when not on duty and carry open when it's hot or I feel like it. I do NOT flaunt my badge. I carry everywhere I can.
A lady doc became kinda unglued at our 1st meeting because I was armed. I simply stated that yes, I saw the sign on the door and ignored it. I asked if she wanted to examine me, or for me to find another doctor. She relented (the $$$$ probably) and even made a follow up appointment. She's a good doc, too.
I had my first confrontation carrying open about 35 years ago. The Chief Of Police saw me in town and stopped me exiting town. Red lights and all. He wanted to know what I was doing wearing "That Thing" on my hip. After I convinced him it was my right and NO laws were broken, he became my friend.
So, I carry any way I can as is my RIGHT, and will continue doing the same.
Glad I found this site. Thanks.
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WARCHILD
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 11th, 2008 02:23 am |
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TheMrMitch wrote: Full Auto...EXCELLENT summation/comparison, sir!
I have a concealed permit, can carry open in Kentucky and am a sworn Corrections Officer. I reckon it's the best of all worlds.
I turn my badge inward when not on duty and carry open when it's hot or I feel like it. I do NOT flaunt my badge. I carry everywhere I can.
A lady doc became kinda unglued at our 1st meeting because I was armed. I simply stated that yes, I saw the sign on the door and ignored it. I asked if she wanted to examine me, or for me to find another doctor. She relented (the $$$$ probably) and even made a follow up appointment. She's a good doc, too.
I had my first confrontation carrying open about 35 years ago. The Chief Of Police saw me in town and stopped me exiting town. Red lights and all. He wanted to know what I was doing wearing "That Thing" on my hip. After I convinced him it was my right and NO laws were broken, he became my friend.
So, I carry any way I can as is my RIGHT, and will continue doing the same.
Glad I found this site. Thanks.
Welcome to OCDO. I have only been here a short time myself and have found it full of good people and excellent info. We're kinda kin in a way, my parents are from Hazard.
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ProguninTN
Regular Member
| Joined: | Sat May 27th, 2006 |
| Location: | Tennessee USA |
| Posts: | 404 |
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Posted: Wed Jun 11th, 2008 10:51 pm |
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Good article.
"The Right to Keep and Bear Arms." We should be able to bear arms in any way we see fit. This could include open carry, concealed carry, or even long guns on a sling. -ProguninTN
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imperialism2024
Regular Member
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Posted: Thu Jun 12th, 2008 01:07 am |
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crotalus01 wrote: WhiteRabbit22 wrote: That's how it should be anyway. No state in this country should have gone to a "permit" system. So far, Vermont and Alaska are the only states honoring the 2A to the fullest.
Scratch Vermont. You cannot own a silencer in Vermont.
Take a look at Montana, maybe... 
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irish
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 03:17 pm |
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Great read, thank you! 
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Big Gay Al
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 03:48 pm |
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I found what appears to be an error. It's in the PDF file too, under the Conclusion heading:
...ARMED CITIZEN; I advise you show your permit and carry on. They may card you as many times as they wish as I long as you know you are legal nothing...
I think the "as I long as" should be "as long as."
Not picking nits, I just thought you'd want to know.
Last edited on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 03:49 pm by Big Gay Al
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Sonora Rebel
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 04:15 pm |
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Full Auto... You've echoed my thoughts exactly. Great piece. Where I live... it's usually too hot to wear anything that would conceal my carry weapon of choice (1911-A1). Aside from tht... I want to be able to bring it to bear w/o being constrained by 'anything' I could hide it under. Altho I'm in really good shape... my ol' can of whupp-ass has long ago exceeded it's shelf life. I OC 'cause i refuse to be a victim. Perps are not suicidal... if they see that .45 on my hip... they'll go elsewhere for a mark. I've avoided a possible shooting incident (and their attempted crime) merely by it's presence. I've shot 'human be'ins' before so I 'know' I can do that if push comes to shove w/o hesitation. I hope I don't have to.
I think there's some 'stigma' against OC... simply because of the media... which forms certain opinions among certain segments of society... like it or not. Y'know... What'll people think... say? Who cares! Those that do that are generally ignorant of their own safety anyway. Sheep!
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fullauto223cal
Regular Member
| Joined: | Sun Dec 30th, 2007 |
| Location: | Tennessee USA |
| Posts: | 104 |
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Posted: Fri Feb 20th, 2009 02:58 pm |
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Thought I'd knock it back to the top for all the new folks...
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YllwFvr
Regular Member
| Joined: | Sun Feb 1st, 2009 |
| Location: | Scranton, Pa |
| Posts: | 270 |
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Posted: Sat Feb 21st, 2009 05:59 am |
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| Excellent work fullauto223cal! This could help those who dont understand get a better understanding of why we carry openly. Emailed to a few people that will enjoy this hugely!
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TatankaGap
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Feb 21st, 2009 07:57 am |
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deepdiver wrote: Schofield wrote: <SNIP>
What about a situation where someone deranged intends to go in shooting? If they see someone standing in line wearing a pistol, they'll almost certainly decide to take out that threat first. Not in a one-on-one confrontation but the ghoul against *everyone*, you're simply in their way. Concealed carry would at least give you the few seconds of leeway, not being the first target, to draw and fire. Curious.
- Schofield
I'm not sure that is true. If someone is going on a suicide shooting spree, they are by definition mentally deranged. I would question if they are rational enough to really think through the matter to that extent or that they are really going to be that observant. My guess would be that they are going to have tunnel vision for the most part and see everyone as a target and just be focused on shooting them. If you are shot immediately in that situation I would guess it is more going to be a matter of being one of the first victims because of bad luck of your location, rather than because you have a gun on your hip.
If you think out that scenario, unless you are one of the first targets, you are going to be going for cover and have your gun in your hand regardless of OC or CC carry, so the method of carry becomes moot, except perhaps, to how quickly you can draw your weapon. And usually these guys don't stake out the place and surveil it minutes before the attack to see who is where. They have a plan, they walk in, go to their chosen firing position and start pulling the trigger. Unless you are unlucky enough to encounter them prior to their first shot, in which case maybe they would shoot you before getting to their firing position if they even notice that you are armed, I don't think someone OC is at anymore risk than someone CC.
Well, I am one of the few people you will meet who has lived through a mass-murdering shooting spree - office building in 1993 - you can google "101 California Street Shootings" - I was unarmed then; I am armed now. If I had been armed then, or if anyone had been armed then, someone could have taken out the gunman from a cover spot before he killed so many people who were just in the office one day doing their jobs.
If you are somewhere standing in line bearing arms, I believe you will be likely to draw fire and may get shot first. Of course, if you are there, your situational awareness might pick up the threat early enough to draw, get a shot off or maybe at least not get killed while you drill as many into the assailant as you have -
If you live, you saved lives. If you don't make it, you saved lives. If you had been unarmed you would have been dead or lucky.
Take it from some one who is lucky, it's always better to not be the dead guy and it's worth saving as many lives as you can - especially innocents.
Many thanks to full auto for reposting this for a newbie to this forum like me -
God Bless.
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Grapeshot
Activist Member
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Posted: Sat Feb 21st, 2009 01:11 pm |
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Repeated from previous thread(s) on the subject.
Show me one incident with a valid cite where a legal OCer was either the victim of a preemptive strike or had his/her gun snatched/stolen by a BG anywhere in the United States in modern times. LEO/security and military actions do not qualify.
Understand that if one or two might be proven to exist, you will only further substantiate my contention that properly done OC is quite safe and most effective. The math would then yield a resultant fractional/per centage value of something like .00001% and I 'll take those odds any day.
Yata heyLast edited on Sat Feb 21st, 2009 01:13 pm by Grapeshot
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50BMG
Regular Member
| Joined: | Tue Dec 2nd, 2008 |
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Posted: Mon Feb 23rd, 2009 07:09 pm |
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fullauto223cal wrote:
THE CASE FOR OPEN CARRY
BEWARE OF DOG/GUN
A sign, be it text, picture, or symbol, is something visual which communicates a clear message to the observer. The observer can choose to disregard the sign but nonetheless they are forced to consider the message before proceeding. Examples of signs conveying an important message would be "BEWARE OF DOG", "NO SMOKING", "EMERGENCY EXIT", or the more ominous "DEADLY FORCE AUTHORIZED". Each sign aids the observer in any potential decision making. Of course, the observer may choose to ignore the warning but this choice will be made based on whether the potential reward outweighs the risk.
The case for open carry is simple. I would submit that in much the same way that a sign works, when the ARMED CITIZEN carries his weapon in the open it communicates a clear message to any observer. To an observer who has no intention of causing harm or using illegal force the sign should be meaningless. However, when the CRIMINAL observes this same sign he must reconsider whether the potential reward outweighs the risk. Where the risk was simply being caught or having to physically overpower the UNARMED CITIZEN it now suddenly rises to potentially enduring great pain and death when confronting the ARMED CITIZEN. Do insane or even desperate CRIMINALS exist who would disregard such an obvious sign and follow through with an attack? As with any possibility the answer is YES but even though they exist their actions do not support the opposing view that open carry should be avoided. They can still be potentially stopped by the ARMED CITIZEN once he becomes aware of the CRIMINALS intent to present a lethal threat.
With regard to the element of surprise discussed earlier, open carry actually supersedes the need for surprise. If carrying openly causes the CRIMINAL to avoid you and those around you as his victims then the need for surprise is negated. Your display of an ability to employ deadly force has avoided the confrontation before it even began, avoided the threat to your life and having to actually use your weapon. As the CRIMINAL moves on to easier prey you will likely never be aware it even happened. I disagree... Your display of the ability to employ deadly force (by openly carrying) makes you Target #1 with a truly violent offender... Then, when you have been neutralized with a bullet in the back of your head, your sidearm will then be taken by said felon to cause even further harm at that scene AND on the streets later on.
Whereas a felon, who is SURPRISED by a concealed carrier during the commission of his/her crime has no time to think about a course of action posed by the immediate threat. Also, the armed citizen has the ability to choose the exact instance of intervention, thus making the overall outcome much more likely to be on the side of the good guys...
Have you ever thought that Open Carry may acually help to INCITE violent behavior???
When was the last time you walked around with a $1000 bill on your hip (which is what some good-quality handguns cost nowadays)? Do you think the fact that the $1000 bill is shaped like a gun means ANYTHING to a determined, and equally underhanded Felon??? It's that simple....
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Sonora Rebel
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Feb 23rd, 2009 08:00 pm |
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50BMG wrote: I disagree... Your display of the ability to employ deadly force (by openly carrying) makes you Target #1 with a truly violent offender... Then, when you have been neutralized with a bullet in the back of your head, your sidearm will then be taken by said felon to cause even further harm at that scene AND on the streets later on.
Whereas a felon, who is SURPRISED by a concealed carrier during the commission of his/her crime has no time to think about a course of action posed by the immediate threat. Also, the armed citizen has the ability to choose the exact instance of intervention, thus making the overall outcome much more likely to be on the side of the good guys...
Have you ever thought that Open Carry may acually help to INCITE violent behavior???
When was the last time you walked around with a $1000 bill on your hip (which is what some good-quality handguns cost nowadays)? Do you think the fact that the $1000 bill is shaped like a gun means ANYTHING to a determined, and equally underhanded Felon??? It's that simple....
OK... prove it. One instance... anywhere USA. Where has this happened?
Note... bullet to the BACK of the head. Hello?
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Big Gay Al
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Feb 23rd, 2009 09:11 pm |
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Are you sure that 50BMG even posed a question? How can you tell? The whole thing looks like quoted text.
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Grapeshot
Activist Member
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Posted: Mon Feb 23rd, 2009 10:06 pm |
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On 12/11/08 50BMG stated:
"The more I hang out at this site, the more I think that this OC issue is one that I am willing to FIGHT AGAINST in my state!!!!!!"
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=18982&forum_id=6&jump_to=320726#p320726
It doesn't take but a few minutes to review his posts. You may draw your own conclusions.
Yata hey
Last edited on Mon Feb 23rd, 2009 10:07 pm by Grapeshot
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Dustin
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Feb 23rd, 2009 10:11 pm |
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Felid`Maximus wrote:
However, it would be nice to CC on some really cold days where you want to wear a jacket.
Ever thought of a Drop Holster or Thigh Holster ?
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fullauto223cal
Regular Member
| Joined: | Sun Dec 30th, 2007 |
| Location: | Tennessee USA |
| Posts: | 104 |
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Posted: Tue Feb 24th, 2009 08:07 am |
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| I don't have the time to review this board as often as I like. Thanks for fighting the good fight in my absence. I somehow think that he is a drive-by poster and probably doesn't have the balls or the intellect to debate the issue any further.
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fullauto223cal
Regular Member
| Joined: | Sun Dec 30th, 2007 |
| Location: | Tennessee USA |
| Posts: | 104 |
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Posted: Tue Feb 24th, 2009 08:47 am |
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50BMG - "Then, when you have been neutralized with a bullet in the back of your head, your sidearm will then be taken by said felon to cause even further harm at that scene AND on the streets later on."
Please cite one example of this scenario taking place, then your statement will hold merit enough to debate. So far, in the states that allow open carry, no news story can be found where the scenario you outline has occurred. Please reread my risk vs. reward section.
Whereas a felon, who is SURPRISED by a concealed carrier during the commission of his/her crime has no time to think about a course of action posed by the immediate threat.
Let me get this right. You advising that should I be the primary target of an armed robbery i.e. gun pointed at my chest with the bad guys finger on trigger, I am better off to "SURPRISE" him with my concealed weapon? I don't think after some real reflection on what you have just claimed you could advise such a risky, dare I say suicidal action. No, I believe what I said in my paper, that the attacker will always have the element of surprise. I say the possibility that I may have to defend myself one on one are far more likely than in a group setting. It is for this reason that I will let the attacker know that there is great "RISK" of death or grievous bodily injury before he decides to make me a victim.
Have you ever thought that Open Carry may acually help to INCITE violent behavior???
Actually yes, but my conclusion was that criminals are nothing more than predators. Predators do not often attack the strongest, fastest, or smartest when there are so many helpless targets. The exception being where the reward for attacking the strongest outweighs the risk, like trying to escape from police.
When was the last time you walked around with a $1000 bill on your hip (which is what some good-quality handguns cost nowadays)? Do you think the fact that the $1000 bill is shaped like a gun means ANYTHING to a determined, and equally underhanded Felon??? It's that simple....
Your argument is simple but flawed in that you compare two things of the same value while omitting their capabilities. The proverbial apples vs. oranges. To answer your question. If the $1000 bill were simply shaped like a gun...no. But if the $1000 bill were actually a gun and actually capable of killing me...yes it would mean a great deal!
50BMG I actually covered folks like yourself in my paper. It was in the latter portion so if you did not get that far don't beat yourself up, I did not expect you to.
Why do you disagree with open carry, "I believe it to be fear; the anxiety of having to confront someone hostile to their choice to carry a weapon for personal defense." You refuse to even consider the benefits of open carry because you rue the possibility it may be advantageous. If it is advantageous then the only reason you don't do it is out of fear of others and your not afraid of anything are you?
If you don't like open carry then DON'T OPEN CARRY. Sit back and wait for that fateful day when see the news clip of the criminal telling the media "He had a gun so I figured I had to shoot him."
The difference between people like you and people like me is simple. I advocate OPEN CARRY as a choice. You advocate CONCEALED CARRY as the ONLY CHOICE.
Last edited on Tue Feb 24th, 2009 08:51 am by fullauto223cal
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Sonora Rebel
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Feb 24th, 2009 04:41 pm |
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+1 fullauto.... There is little 'tactical advantage' in looking like the rest of the sheep unless you're a criminal. Criminals will always have the element of surprise. The visible presence of 'iron' on yer hip is an 'active' deterrent' to any BG looking to jack an easy mark. They're not gonna chance it. Of course... you may encounter some drugged out loon who doesn't care... but he's not gonna care any less if you're CC either.
Nothing in life is 100%. (He who would defend all, defends nothing.': Sun Tzu)
What I read in 50BMG is fear as well. There's shelter among the herd. Not a wolf in sheeps clothing but a sheep with fangs. A sheep nonetheless. A sheep not wanting to appear any different than the rest of the herd... feeling smug with it's secret.
What will the rest of the sheep 'say'? 'Can't bring attention to myself... Mostly, nobody notices. In that, I see personal insecurity and self consciousness justified thru this other scenario 'stuff' that doesn't happen.
I don't have ESP... I don't want'a have to shoot anybody... but I will. I will not be a victim if there's any way I can prevent it. I don't care about the periodic 'dirty looks' from the noobs here... or the snowbirds. I carry that piece by choice. It's my right. It's equally their right not to. 'Same with OC/CC... altho CC requires 'permit'. Perhaps 'permit' implies personal legitimacy? Rights do not require permission.
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Dustin
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue Feb 24th, 2009 04:54 pm |
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Good points made by both again.
IMO, I just see CC as way to passive. I'd rather keep a bad guy at bay with OC, than have him commit the crime and THEN have to do something about it. CC might indeed almost CAUSE you to HAVE to be in a situation your trying to avoid in the first place.
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