|
|
|
OpenCarry.org - Discussion Forum > Stories From The States > Idaho > Cops called on me at Boise Public Library!
|
|
||
| OpenCarry.org - Discussion Forum > Stories From The States > Idaho > Cops called on me at Boise Public Library!
|
|||
| Moderated by: jpierce | ||
| Author | Post | |||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Saint Regular Member 
|
So I had quite the encounter with the Boise Police today. Here's how it transpired. At approximately 3:15 PM I drove to the Boise Public Library to get a couple books and CDs. I was wearing a long sleeve shirt, blue jeans with a Blackhawk belt. I was carrying my Glock 19 in a Serpa CQC holster strong side with an extra 17 round mag on weak side. I had a backpack on that contained my laptop and school books. I browsed for about 15 mins during which time I picked up two books and two CDs. I was looking at some other CDs when I was approached by a library employee (First name was Tom, approx. 55-65 years old, white hair and beard. I later ascertained that he was one of the guys in charge of the library. I am unsure as to his exact position) He looked at my Glock and told me that I was not allowed to carry in the library. I informed him that I was perfectly legal and would continue to carry. He then said it was against the policy and he didn't care what the law said but that I was not allowed to carry in there. I responded that BPL is a subsidiary of the state of Idaho and as such it falls under state pre-emption statutes and that as such, he had no authority to ask me to disarm. He then pulled out his cell phone and said that he was calling the cops. He walked off and started talking to the police while i pulled out my phone and called Patriot. I double checked that I was within the law and Patriot told me that he was 10 mins away and was on his way over. I continued browsing (no sense in wasting my time) and waited to see what would happen. Patriot arrived, called me to let me know he was there but refrained from making contact. He informed me there was a BPD officer outside but that the officer had not entered the building. About 3 mins later (Approximately 3:35) four uniformed officers entered the building and approached me. The initiating officer instructed me to place my hands on my head and interlace my fingers. He then informed me that he was going to disarm me and search my person for additional weapons. I asked him on what grounds and he informed me that Boise Municipal code prohibited firearms in public buildings, and that because I had refused to leave I was suspected of trespassing. As such, he was removing my weapon for officer safety so he could talk to me. I acknowledged his concern and allowed him to finish the search. At this point he allowed me to lower my hands and we started talking. He explained that he had be called because an armed man was refusing to leave the library. He told me that the library has a policy against firearms and that I was in violation of that. I responded and told him that while I understood that policy, it was not enforceable as it was in violation of state law. I quoted parts of section 18.33 of Idaho state firearms code and article II of the state constitution. We continued going back and forth for a few mins until about 3:45. At this point officer Orton (the contact officer) asked if we could go outside or into a differant room so that we didn't create a disturbance to the other patrons of the library. I told him I was fine with that as my intention was not to create a problem in the first place. We walked outside where I continued to discuss the law and the pre-emption statutes with the officers. Patriot also walked out and stood at a little distance away observing. After a few mins of talking another guy who Patriot and I know showed up and handed Patriot a recorder. The rest of the conversation is on record but I have not listened to it so I can't transcribe it. At about 3:55 I asked Officer Orton to call his supervising officer so I could talk to him. He responded in affirmative and they called the lieutenant on duty and asked him to come down. As we were waiting, Patriot approached the officers and held out a cell phone to them. He informed them that Senator Kurt Mackenzie was on the phone and wanted to speak with the officer in charge. Officer Orton took the phone and began a lengthy conversation with the senator. During this time he was mostly out of ear shot and I ended discussing law and firearm carry with another officer. (Unfortunately I don't recall his name) This officer was very nice and professional. We discussed campus carry and the VT shootings and the officer expressed his support for the right of students to carry on campus. At some point the Lieutenant showed up and began talking with Officer Orton who was still on the phone with Senator Mackenzie. Soon after they called the city attorney and were all four attempting to decipher the law. Officer Orton pulled out his copy of the Boise City Municpal Code and showed me the section he was referencing which did indeed state that the carry of firearms in Boise Public Buildings was prohibited. I simply pointed out that regardless of that fact it was in conflict with state law and thus was un-enforceable. At about 4:20 Senator Mackenzie asked to speak with me. He informed me that as far as they understood I was completely legal in my carry and they were simply trying to ascertain whether the library had any authority to ask me to leave the property. After talking with him for a few more mins I handed the phone back to the officers and let them continue their discussion. About 5 mins later Officer Orton returned and told me that while he knew it was legal for me to do so, he was still talking with the City Attorney to find out if I was trespassing or not. He then asked if I would be willing to not re-enter the library for about an hour so that they could have some time to figure the law out. I told him that due simply to his professional attitude and the fact that he had acted decently I would comply with his request under the condition that he took down my contact information and called me the moment he knew anything. I then gave him my cell phone number, my home number and my full name (note that he never asked me to identify myself. I gave the information to him voluntarily) He then handed me his business card and said he would call me as soon as he heard back from the city. The lieutenant approached me about a min later and Patriot and I began a discussion with him. He was very polite and respectful and seemed genuinely interested in clearing things up. After talking with him for about 10 mins Patriot and I walked over to talk to our other friend. A few mins later (approx. 4:40) I started to walk to my car only to have Officer Orton call out to me. He explained that he had just received confirmation from the city attorney that I was completely correct and that the city code was indeed in violation of the law. He thanked me for my cooperation and the education oppurtunity that it had offerd the BPD. He then told me that they would be having an emergency briefing the next morning to let all of the Boise Police Department know the OC in public buildings in Boise is perfectly legal regardless of the policies. He then told me that if I had any more probblems to call him immediately and that he would make sure that the library was informed of the correct law. I thanked him again for his proffesionalism, shook his hand and told him that if he needed my assistance in anything else or needed to talk to me at any point to feel free to call me. We both wished each other a good day and I departed to my car (I had somewhere to be at 5 PM) The entire encounter was over at about 4:45 PM and we got 52 mins of it on the voice recorder. I'll try and see about uploading the audio at some point. All in all I consider this a very positive encounter. The LEO's were proffesional and interested in making sure they had the correct law. They were friendly, personable, and generally supported the rights of citizens to carry. And they were quick to acknowledge that they were in the wrong and were thankful for the legal educational experience. Hopefully this will not be a probblem anymore in the city of Boise now that BPD is going to be issuing a training bulletin and will be informing the department of the correct laws. MOLON LABE!!! ~The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"~ -- George Washington |
|||||||||
|
ScottyT Regular Member 
|
I always enjoy your encounters Saint, good job! Always helps to have a senator on the line! I would love to hear the audio if you get a chance to post it. Next time I am in Boise visiting my cousins I will drop you a line and maybe we could go for a quick OC bite! |
|||||||||
|
Citizen Founder's Club Member
|
Well Done! Very Well Done! |
|||||||||
|
Phssthpok Regular Member
|
So, I have a question: Was officer Orton's Sphincter-snap (upon being handed a phone with Senator Mackenzie on the line) clearly audible or was it somewhat muffled?  Last edited on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 04:30 am by Phssthpok |
|||||||||
|
Flintlock Regular Member 
|
Interesting encounter. I guess it's always nice to have phone access to a senator and good friends with recorders that can help you. I do have a couple of questions though... Did he actually ask you to leave? He said you couldn't carry in there which was incorrect on his part. Therefore, even if he asked you to leave because of that, it would be discrimination. Secondly, when you were to go outside for an hour, did the officer give you back your gun? When exactly were you rearmed? |
|||||||||
|
563 Regular Member 
|
Nice work Saint! Cool heads prevailed! I'm glad nothing bad came out of it. Nice to see our BPD approaching this matter from a professional stand point, rather than use strong arm tactics. |
|||||||||
|
UTOC-45-44 Regular Member 
|
Saint wrote: So I had quite the encounter with the Boise Police today. Here's how it transpired. Thanks Saint, for being an inspiration. I have always wanted to OC at the local Public Library, but has been a little bit hesitant so far. This will inspire me to do so. We have the the same law; that no local government, municipality can create their own firearm laws. TJ |
|||||||||
|
563 Regular Member
|
why don't all organize and all show up there, sit down and read some poetry.  |
|||||||||
|
UTOC-45-44 Regular Member
|
563 wrote: why don't all organize and all show up there, sit down and read some poetry. Gun poetry??? TJ |
|||||||||
|
Citizen Founder's Club Member
|
UTOC-45-44 wrote: 563 wrote:why don't all organize and all show up there, sit down and read some poetry. Tap the clip, rack the slide, I OC, I won't hide... |
|||||||||
|
Patriot Regular Member 
|
Saint conducted himself in an exemplary manner, both in demeanor, and dialogue. I was impressed..........ok......maybe a little suprised And big thanks to the un-named friend who brought the recorder, and to IdahoCorsair and my wife for getting several phone #s for Sen. Mackenzie so fast!! I want to do something to say thanks to Sen. Mackenzie.... I'm thinking along the lines of sending flowers to his office, but there has to be a manly version of that...... Any ideas? BTW Saint, the second officer you talked to really didn't like my "bladed stance", apparently that threatened him....If only he knew |
|||||||||
|
Phssthpok Regular Member
|
A HAIKU party! |
|||||||||
|
UTOC-45-44 Regular Member
|
Citizen wrote: UTOC-45-44 wrote:563 wrote:why don't all organize and all show up there, sit down and read some poetry. ROTFLMAO. Citizen, your "killin'" me TJ |
|||||||||
|
Phssthpok Regular Member
|
Query: "Bladed stance"? |
|||||||||
|
Patriot Regular Member
|
Phssthpok, I distinctly heard four separate audible "SNAP" like sounds |
|||||||||
|
Patriot Regular Member
|
According to the officer, I was clearly armed (5.11 pants, Tac Belt, etc. [my leather jacket concealed my G17 and extra mag]), and my "bladed stance" (the beginnings of a modified Weaver shooting stance less than 7 yards from his buddies) seemed to bother him. He told me I couldn't go closer for "officer safety", so when he asked what I was doing in that stance I told him it was for "citizen safety". He didn't seem to like that either. P.S. I was plesant to the other officers, but this one started gruff with me, so I responded in kind. Last edited on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 05:27 am by Patriot |
|||||||||
|
UTOC-45-44 Regular Member
|
Patriot wrote: According to the officer, I was clearly armed (5.11 pants, Tac Belt, etc), and my "bladed stance" (the beginnings of a modified Weaver shooting stance less than 7 yards from his buddies) seemed to bother him. He told me I couldn't go closer for "officer safety", so when he asked what I was doing in that stance I told him it was for "citizen safety". He didn't seem to like that either. I like that..., "Citizen safety". TJ |
|||||||||
|
Sa45auto Regular Member 
|
I have a new hero. My hat's off to you saint. |
|||||||||
|
Patriot Regular Member
|
Saint sure pulls more than his own weight arround here. It's really encouraging, but I guess the rest of us need to step it up. |
|||||||||
|
KBCraig Regular Member
|
Citizen wrote:
Sounds familiar.  I don't care, I'm still free You can't take the sky from me |
|||||||||
|
Saint Regular Member
|
Patriot... I think the officer that talked to you was differant than the second officer I talked to. I could be wrong though cause I was trying to pay attention to Orton at that point. I did find much ammusement though in the fact that you stood there the entire time. It was a fantastic thing |
|||||||||
|
Saint Regular Member
|
Flintlock wrote: Interesting encounter. I guess it's always nice to have phone access to a senator and good friends with recorders that can help you. I do have a couple of questions though... I was never asked to leave verbally. The man who approached me claimed he said that 'If I had the gun I was going to have to leave' but I was never told directly to leave the property. The gun was placed into my backpack along with the two mags about 45 mins into the confrontation. The officer who was holding it said he wanted to make sure he gave it back to me in case he was called off to another assignment and I agreed to allow him to place it in my bag as opposed to back on my person. In retrospect I probably should have insisted on rearming myself, but at that point I was still technically under suspiscion of tresspassing. Plus I figured that with five cops standing there I was gonna be pretty safe anyway |
|||||||||
|
UTOC-45-44 Regular Member
|
Saint wrote: Flintlock wrote:Interesting encounter. I guess it's always nice to have phone access to a senator and good friends with recorders that can help you. I do have a couple of questions though... Safe from who ??? Oh yea, the Cops...right. I remember now. IF they got "trigger happy" it would take 8 out of 10 rounds to hit you. So yeah. your right. You are safe TJ |
|||||||||
|
Jim675 Founder's Club Member 
|
WOW. In fact, here's a twelve pack of WOWs. Please take one for yourself, each friend, the Senator, and several officers. The librarian will have to make do without. |
|||||||||
|
Flintlock Regular Member
|
Saint wrote:
See, that just raises another question then... If he never actually asked you to leave, how could you ever be under the suspicion of trespassing? As they should know.. Trespassing in that situation would be refusing to leave when asked to do so. At any rate, you did excellent and there are now more informed officers and citizens out in the country. |
|||||||||
|
hitbackfirst Regular Member 
|
I just want to offer a quick thank you to Saint, Patriot, and Senator Mackenzie. It just goes to show that one person really can make a difference. Keep up the good work, HitBackFirst |
|||||||||
|
Doug Huffman Regular Member 
|
Patriot wrote:I want to do something to say thanks to Sen. Mackenzie.... I'm thinking along the lines of sending flowers to his office, but there has to be a manly version of that...... Flowers are attractive and smell nice, so perhaps ammo (attractive) or a bottle of Hoppe's No. 9 (like Chanel No. 9)? |
|||||||||
|
Sa45auto Regular Member
|
563 wrote: why don't all organize and all show up there, sit down and read some poetry. On your suggestion I wrote the following; Enjoy. The Library The Saint set out to learn one day; The library, would be his way. His plan was to improve his mind; And be prepared, for what he’d find. A fine young man, the Gem States son; Wore Serpa, for his carry gun. Out in the open, ‘tis his way; You threaten him and you will pay. No big surprise, was pack, for books; But gun on hip, got him some looks. Tom was a very stoic man; When he saw gun, he formed a plan. He first would quote, “The policy”; Then call Police, just wait and see. The best laid plans oft go awry; He could not win, though he did try. The Saint did know his stuff that day; And countered all that Tom did say. The cops were called, and tried their best; But their best efforts, failed the test. With Patriot, poised to lend a hand; The Saint made his, heroic stand. Then Senator Mackenzie, entered the fray; And truth and justice won that day.
Sorry about the formatting, I tried to fix it , but the program won't let me. Last edited on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 07:40 pm by Sa45auto |
|||||||||
|
563 Regular Member
|
Bravo!!! nothing like a little Poetry Slam to start the day off right. |
|||||||||
|
Saint Regular Member
|
Wow... that was amazing |
|||||||||
|
jpierce Administrator 
|
Great job!!!! This is exactly the formula that serves to enhance the environment for OC! Thank you sir! |
|||||||||
|
563 Regular Member
|
Saint is quickly becoming the "OC Poster Boy" maybe a future in politics or the legal arena for you. |
|||||||||
|
Saint Regular Member
|
563 wrote: Saint is quickly becoming the "OC Poster Boy" maybe a future in politics or the legal arena for you. Lol. I am a political science major planning on going to law school after I receive my degree. My intention is to go into politics or into law after graduation |
|||||||||
|
563 Regular Member
|
Saint wrote: 563 wrote:Saint is quickly becoming the "OC Poster Boy" maybe a future in politics or the legal arena for you. Thus far, I think you got the right stuff to succeed. maybe in 20 yrs we'll see Saint going for the Presidency? Aim High! |
|||||||||
|
Sa45auto Regular Member
|
Saint wrote: 563 wrote:Saint is quickly becoming the "OC Poster Boy" maybe a future in politics or the legal arena for you. My estimation is that you are right on target. |
|||||||||
|
mark edward marchiafava Regular Member
|
Teaching the law to cops is one thing, but does the librarian now know how wrong he is/was? |
|||||||||
|
Sa45auto Regular Member
|
mark edward marchiafava wrote: Teaching the law to cops is one thing, but does the librarian now know how wrong he is/was? I'm with you.....I hope that the Saint goes back into the Library as soon and possible to drive his point home. He needs to strike while the iron is still hot. |
|||||||||
|
Patriot Regular Member
|
IdahoCorsair and I will OC there soon (separately). Probably today for me. I think we need to create a phone directory we all keep in our phones of all the local OC guys, so when this stuff happens, we get as many people there to help as possible. BTW, the librarian was visibly furious. He even went back into the library, got the books Saint was looking at, checked them out, and gave them to Saint, so that he would have no reason to re-enter the library. Last edited on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 05:38 pm by Patriot |
|||||||||
|
Saint Regular Member
|
I am returning this afternoon at about 1:45 if anyone else would like to join me. I'll be dressed in jeans, t shirt, serpa holster with Glock 19 and an extra mag on weak side. If you want my cell phone number in case anyone needs to get a hold of me, PM me and I will give it to you. |
|||||||||
|
Patriot Regular Member
|
Saint, I'm in class from 1:30-2:30, any chance you can re-schedule so I can join you? If not, I'll keep my phone on |
|||||||||
|
Saint Regular Member
|
Patriot wrote: IdahoCorsair and I will OC there soon (separately). Probably today for me. He was indeed furious. It was quite ammusing. The books were already checked out (I had done so myself while he was calling the cops so that if I ended up taking them outside there would be no way they could try to get me for attempted robbery) but I did find it ammusing the he brought them out and held onto the books so I wouldn't go back in. If I had not had to go to class right at the time the confrontation ended I would have re-entered immediately |
|||||||||
|
Saint Regular Member
|
Possibly... how about later? I get out of class at 3:30 and don't have to be at work until 5:15. So does 3:40 work? |
|||||||||
|
Patriot Regular Member
|
Probably, I'll keep in touch. |
|||||||||
|
Mike Super Moderator
|
So, is Tom up to speed now? |
|||||||||
|
ironshields Regular Member 
|
saint, you are truly the man. way to protect OC |
|||||||||
|
Saint Regular Member
|
Mike wrote: So, is Tom up to speed now?I know that as I walking away Officer Orton and the Lieutenant went over and began speaking with him and that Tom appeared to visibily upset by what they told him. I was also told by officer Orton that if I had any further problems from library personel I was to tell them to call him directly and he would make sure they understood the law. So my guess is that yes, Tom now understands that he has far less authority than he oridginally thought.  |
|||||||||
|
IdahoCorsair State Researcher 
|
Saint, yet another 'incident.' I heard you handled yourself in an exemplary manner and while not perfect by the LE, at least they were moderately reasonable... they were willing to learn and it seems they did! Keep this up and the whole state might even one day be truly pro-gun! |
|||||||||
|
swillden Regular Member 
|
Patriot wrote: Saint sure pulls more than his own weight arround here. It's really encouraging, but I guess the rest of us need to step it up With a support system like the one evident here, it should be easy to get people to step up. Very impressive all around. Kudos to Saint for handling himself perfectly, and to Patriot and the others that stepped up. I also think the BPD is very deserving of applause. I've read about a lot of encounters here on OCDO, but I don't think I've read another example of such professional behavior. The responding officers had a legitimate basis to believe that Saint was breaking the law (it's perfectly reasonable for city cops to assume that the municipal code is valid), yet they handled the issue with politeness and restraint, and not only apologized but thanked Saint for the education when their error was made clear. And now they're going to ensure that the whole department is properly educated on the issue. What more can we ask? Edit: Fixed grammar. Last edited on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 06:43 pm by swillden |
|||||||||
|
BobCav Founder's Club Member 
|
Saint, that was not only textbook, it was inspiring! I just hope it sticks and there is something of real value gained here other than the police mumbling about a bunch of "damn OC activists..." There is a real difference between understanding and acknowledgement through education and begrudgingly following the rules. Patriot wrote: I want to do something to say thanks to Sen. Mackenzie.... I'm thinking along the lines of sending flowers to his office, but there has to be a manly version of that...... Absolutely! I've never heard of any guy refusing a nice 12-15 year old bottle of scotch! |
|||||||||
|
swillden Regular Member
|
BobCav wrote: Absolutely! I've never heard of any guy refusing a nice 12-15 year old bottle of scotch! Well, if he's not LDS, or for some other reason a non-drinker. He'd probably appreciate the gesture anyway, but it might create a little discomfort. |
|||||||||
|
IdahoCorsair State Researcher
|
Well, ideally we could ask for more, but pragmatically we can't ask for more. They have thousands of laws to enforce and can't be experts on all of them. If they are willing to consider the possibility that they're wrong (which they did in this case), and call the right people to discuss the matter (and take calls ), then that means they aren't acting as self-important tyrants necessarily, but more toward being servants willing to learn. LEOs still have a long way to go, but it gives me a brief respite of hope in an otherwise dark arena. |
|||||||||
|
IdahoCorsair State Researcher
|
swillden wrote: BobCav wrote:Absolutely! I've never heard of any guy refusing a nice 12-15 year old bottle of scotch! It might also violate some rule about 'political gifts' or some such nonsense.  So we best look into it first. |
|||||||||
|
BobCav Founder's Club Member
|
Politicians accept gifts all the time and the National Archive is full of gifts to the Presidents. IIRC if it's an item it remains with the office not the person and is passed on to the next. Something consumable like that is merely shared with others. US Federal law prohibits giving gifts to superiors. IIRC, he can accept a gift of no more than $49.99 in any single instance or $99.99 from any source in a calendar year. Lemme dig up the US Code. EDIT: $49.95 as long as you're not a registered lobbyist. Found it here: http://ethics.senate.gov/downloads/pdffiles/new%20ethics%20rules_gifts%20and%20events.pdf Last edited on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 07:01 pm by BobCav |
|||||||||
|
IdahoCorsair State Researcher
|
Nice work Bob, thanks! |
|||||||||
|
Patriot Regular Member
|
How much is a good bottle of scotch, and where do I get one......common liquer stores? Flowers for his wife would be great too. When she didn't answer the phone I didn't leave a mesage. She just saw the missed call and called me right back, and was very pleasant (gave me her husband's law firm #). |
|||||||||
|
Alphamike Regular Member 
|
I feel that I have to weigh in on this. I wrote the Senate bill (sponsored by Curt McKenzie) that became 18-3302J (state preemption of firearms regulation) this year. The intent of this bill was to clarify that local ordinances prohibiting firearms possession in various public places were unenforceable as well as to explicitly extend state preemption to government subdivisions besides cities and counties. The original draft of the bill would have tested the Universities’ anti-gun policies but that had to be deleted in order to get a bill through at all. We have established the principle of complete preemption in the code and we will go back next year and work on campus carry and other issues. I applaud you for forcing the City of Boise to admit that their ordinance prohibiting firearms possession in public buildings is void (as it was by the terms of the previous premption statutes). Boise City opposed the preemption bill using the arguments that they couldn’t prohibit their employees from CCW etc. Curt McKenzie presented the bill in the House committee and he was grilled for over an hour. I now expect the City of Boise (and others) to introduce a bill abrogating preemption to some degree in the next session. I was hoping that we could work toward advancing firearms rights rather than defending them against attack. Let me be perfectly clear: you have a right to OC in Idaho. I testified to the State Affairs committee that the language of Art 1 Sec 9 of the Idaho Constitution probably prevents even the legislature from regulating OC. Just because you have a right, though, does not mean that it is a good idea, in practical terms, to exercise it indiscriminately. To those who OC in public places I would ask that you consider the effect of your actions on ordinary citizens. Justifiably or not, OC scares people. Scared citizens are not going to "get used to it", they are going to demand action from their public officials (who may be anti-gun to begin with). Despite the reputation of Idaho as being a gun free paradise, I can tell you from personal experience that the true believers in the legislature (such as Sen. McKenzie) are in the decided minority. Most are not idealogical about gun issues and can be turned if their constituents (backed by interest groups) demands "reasonable" regulation of behavior that is seen as "unreasonable". Besides making my job as an advocate for firearms freedoms more difficult, public OC "because I can" carries the very real risk that we could lose hard won ground in the form of more restrictions on CCW. The legislature apparently cannot regulate OC but they definitely CAN regulate CCW, which I would submit is a lot more important to the personal security of the vast majority of gun owners. I don’t have time to engage in public debate or flame wars over this. If anyone has any reasonable questions you may PM me. |
|||||||||
|
Sa45auto Regular Member
|
Alphamike wrote:
In view of the above statement, I want to say something. There is a difference between exercising your rights in an honest and respectful manner, which is what the Saint did yesterday, and in going forth with an "In you Face" attitude. I learned many years ago this very sad lesson. I had an encounter where I was a wide eyed youth standing up for what was right, and I prevailed against seasoned veterans that were left confounded. My humility turned with time and reflection to a haughty air and I again sought a similar confrontation. The second time I met a sweet little old lady that chewed me up and spit me out. Moral of this story; Enjoy your well earned favors, but do it with humility and you will continue in good grace. I amend my call for an "In you Face" visit to the library and now urge that you be a gracious winner. |
|||||||||
|
Patriot Regular Member
|
Thanks for your hard work, and for posting, I agree that there are many issues to consider before OCing, and that is why I sometimes do and sometimes don't. I hope everyone will read what you wrote, and make appropriate situation based descisions accordingly. Let's all keep the long term goal if focus!  |
|||||||||
|
Sa45auto Regular Member
|
Patriot wrote: Thanks for your hard work, and for posting, Patriot.....You have just been added to my list of Heroes. Well said. |
|||||||||
|
lockman State Researcher 
|
So what did the senator just say? Exercise your rights, but if confronted about it back down for the common good? What was that motto again? A right not exercised is a right _____? |
|||||||||
|
Patriot Regular Member
|
A Hero??? Yay! Does this mean I get to put on a cape and underwear and fly arround the room?  Sorry for the mental immage  |
|||||||||
|
Patriot Regular Member
|
Lockman, That was not the senator, and while I may not agree with what he said completely, we should all take the concept to heart. |
|||||||||
|
Sa45auto Regular Member
|
Patriot wrote: A Hero??? Yay! You may........If you can. |
|||||||||
|
Sa45auto Regular Member
|
lockman wrote: So what did the senator just say? Exercise your rights, but if confronted about it back down for the common good? My take on what he said is that it is good to exercise our rights, but, as in all things, we should show restraint and realize that there are consequences for all of our actions. There are a lot of things I can do but chose not to, because I care more for the greater good than I do for my own gratification. |
|||||||||
|
hitbackfirst Regular Member
|
No offense to Alphamike, but I cannot support the argument of "Don't exercise your rights or they may be taken from you." It is keeping our rights low profile so as not to attract attention rather than openly exercising them that allows those rights to be swept away with little or no opposition. |
|||||||||
|
BobCav Founder's Club Member
|
Alphamike wrote: Besides making my job as an advocate for firearms freedoms more difficult, public OC "because I can" carries the very real risk that we could lose hard won ground in the form of more restrictions on CCW. The legislature apparently cannot regulate OC but they definitely CAN regulate CCW, which I would submit is a lot more important to the personal security of the vast majority of gun owners. I applaud you for being an advocate in the minority, and truly thank you for what you are doing for gun rights. However I worry that the above bolded statement reflects a modern and all to common fear of something that is un-regulatable through legislation. (The old "what law says you can do that?" mentality.) CC is a privilege while OC is a right. Currently it is seen that CC is the norm and OC is and should be the exception at a time and place deemed appropriate. I completely disagree and feel that it should be the exact opposite! I believe that OC should be the norm and CC should be the exception when appropriate (in a suit, at church, etc). Perhaps our advocates are voicing themselves too loudly for the wrong thing? CC is a privilege that gives the approving authority control to take it away. Control. Gun Control. The one time I CC'ed in Virginia I felt sneaky, deceptive and dirty even though I had OC'ed for a while and had my CHP. It was not a good feeling and certainly did not feel like I was exercising any right at all. I felt more like a criminal. I am no more ashamed of my gun than I am of my Navy uniform but the latter is merely a symbol of our freedom whilst the former the guarantor. If the purpose of carrying is to defend life, then lets not forget where life and the right to defend it both come from: God. I believe it is the "hide your guns because they're bad" mentality that got us to where we are in the first place regarding sensible and resonable gun regulation. As I've said time and time again, OC is the ultimate hypocrite detector, be it on the street, in a store, in a library, behind a badge, in the legislature, anywhere and everywhere. Think of it this way. If more people OC'ed, there would be less crime and less criminals and less need for unnecesary legislation making your job easier and our society a safer place - like it once was. I hope that you will continue the fight for gun rights everywhere as long as the fight does not continue to drive guns into the shadows. Mine is afraid of the dark. |
|||||||||
|
Sa45auto Regular Member
|
hitbackfirst wrote:No offense to Alphamike, but I cannot support the argument of "Don't exercise your rights or they may be taken from you." It is keeping our rights low profile so as not to attract attention rather than openly exercising them that allows those rights to be swept away with little or no opposition. I don't know who you are quoting, but Alphamike didn't say that. We are each stewards of our own rights. We get to chose how to use them. I believe Alphamike was asking us to use them wisley. I have had several experiences where I was open carrrying, someone saw me and got scared, and I was able, through soft words, kindness and understanding, to calm their fears and educate them. I have been abel to keep from making enemies, by treating them as friends. Open Carry education is like eating an orange. If you try and force someone to eat a whole orange, all at once, just because you can, you might succeed, but you will make an enemie who hates oranges. If on the other hand, you feed them that orange, one section at a time, you will make a friend who likes oranges. The same goes for open carry. We can make enemies or friends, the choice is ours. This is where the greater good comes in. Please exercise your right to open carry, but please do it with wisdom and make friends not enemies. |
|||||||||
|
563 Regular Member
|
Patriot wrote: A Hero??? Yay! just don't OC if you plan to dress up, even I would find that "Alarming" |
|||||||||
|
Patriot Regular Member
|
Um..... Anyone know a good "Indecent Exposure" attourney? |
|||||||||
|
Sa45auto Regular Member
|
Patriot wrote:Um..... That was no open carry when you "Dress up" (As in Super Hero) Not when you "Dress" Patriot. |
|||||||||
|
OnlineErie.com Regular Member 
|
swillden wrote: BobCav wrote:Absolutely! I've never heard of any guy refusing a nice 12-15 year old bottle of scotch! How about some range time for the senator. Bravo for all you have done to enrich the OC'ing experience! Dave Martin Pa. DOC |
|||||||||
|
bourneshooter Regular Member 
|
Kudos to all involved. Especially to Saint for the way he handled himself. Thanks to Senator McKenzie for his involvement. |
|||||||||
|
Citizen Founder's Club Member
|
Phssthpok wrote: A HAIKU party! Slow and steady squeeze. Blurry target, sharp front sight. Surprise break. Kaboom! Great time at the range. Shooting paper and poppers. Gun is dirty now. Last edited on Thu May 1st, 2008 03:54 am by Citizen |
|||||||||
|
Citizen Founder's Club Member
|
Phssthpok wrote: A HAIKU party! Come on guys! Create! This is fun. Soul-reaching report. It is my nature to love, The sound of freedom. |
|||||||||
|
Decoligny Regular Member 
|
Hate writing Haiku The meter is way too hard Think I'll have a beer |
|||||||||
|
Citizen Founder's Club Member
|
Decoligny wrote: Hate writing Haiku |
|||||||||
|
BobCav Founder's Club Member
|
Can't write a haiku Dislike the way they don't rhyme Guess I'll just give up. |
|||||||||
|
UTOC-45-44 Regular Member
|
BobCav wrote: Can't write a haiku Write it while having a (ora few) beer. I having a beer (or a few) makes everything sound better TJ |
|||||||||
|
hitbackfirst Regular Member
|
a loaded handgun open carried on one's hip Boise is now safe |
|||||||||
|
Sa45auto Regular Member
|
haiku....Blah.. Without a meter or a ryme; I'll call it "Junk", most every time. |
|||||||||
|
Pa. Patriot State Researcher 
|
Alphamike wrote:
You posted publicly, therefor my reply will be publlic. The notion that OC scares people is completely erroneous in my experiences. I OC all over PA and have never seen any one single person get "scared". I also challenge your presumption that OC will lead to more legislation. I've heard this repeated on numerous forums and it never comes to light. Frankly, I'm tired of folks that don't OC, telling me what will happen because of OC. Predictibly, the claims always prove empty. |
|||||||||
|
Patriot Regular Member
|
Pa. Patriot, As evidenced by this incident, I am obviously all for OC,(BTW, I was one of the first 30 or so members of this site). I OC quite a lot, but hear me out... Saint won a great victory for us all. The cops were educated, the librarian was educated, the city attourneys were educated, etc. I'll make this extreme, so you get the point... If I OC mt AR-15s at the library and in the city parks on a regular basis, ther WILL be political preasure, and laws WILL be created to stop me. If you don't think so, you are wrong This is sad and wrong, but it is the world we live in. I will continue to OC, and if I happen to be in a park, or at the library, I will still OC. But if we held weekly OC events in the childrens literature section of the library, some idiot of a mother who happens to be from a wealthy family WILL shut us down. The idea is to consider the long term goal, and strategically work toward it. Nobody's saying "dont OC", just always consider what you are doing, and possible consecuences. Now that's just plain old good advice for life! |
|||||||||
|
Flintlock Regular Member
|
The main issue I have with alphamike's comments is that he fails to take into consideration the advantage of public desensitization when firearms are openly displayed. He is right in one thing... The people as a whole, (depending on the location) are "scared" for the most part when they see firearms, but I think that has more to do with education than anything else. people simply cannot fathom how it is "allowed" to openly carry weapons when one is not a police officer or without some form of government permission slip (permit). With education, comes understanding. We shouldn't conceal our weapons because certain people do not have that understanding. We live in a terribly hoplophobic society. That will never change if we follow alphamike's advice. |
|||||||||
|
Citizen Founder's Club Member
|
I've had many more positive encounters with John Q. Public than negative. I suspect the press' focus on the anti- side of the story gives a false impression that many, many people would be unnerved at the sight of an OC'd handgun. |
|||||||||
|
Patriot Regular Member
|
You may be ascribing the wrong emotion to those people... I'm not sure I have ever seen someone "scared" by my OC. Instead, I occationally see someone who made up their mind a long time ago, and they are pissed/angry/upset that I would dare to OC. If the librarian was scared, he would have hid from Saint, and then called 911. He didn't hide. He was pissed that Saint would openly display his freedom, so he confronted him. Again, that is evidence of anger, not fear. The people that haven't made up their minds, are generally just curious to some degree or another. It is these people, who are our "targets". If they see a rude OCer in grungy clothes with stubble on his face, they will turn somewhat anti-gun, but if they see a clean shaven, well dressed, polite individual, who holds a door open for them with a smile, and a "it's a beautiful day, isn't it?", they will have no choice but to remember, and tell their friends about, "that polite gentleman with a gun". |
|||||||||
|
Flintlock Regular Member
|
Patriot wrote: You may be ascribing the wrong emotion to those people... I agree with both of you, I was just using the verbage that alphamike used. I have never had anything other than funny looks myself, but I live in Alaska and I know that not all locations have the political establishment that we have here. Instead of "scared", I should have said something else like maybe sensitive or misinformed... Regardless, that was not the point that I was trying to make in response to his post. Desensitization is the key and that will never happen if we conceal in public locations where the media or some other entity might think it to be currently inappropriate to carry firearms. |
|||||||||
|
t3rmin Regular Member
|
+1 For you guys absolutely ROCKING, and especially for the Firefly reference on the first page of the thread. |
|||||||||
|
Patriot Regular Member
|
Flintlock, Agreed Last edited on Thu May 1st, 2008 05:51 pm by Patriot |
|||||||||
|
Sa45auto Regular Member
|
Patriot wrote:Pa. Patriot, Patriot I knew I was right about you. Very well said. |
|||||||||
|
563 Regular Member
|
Saint wrote: I am returning this afternoon at about 1:45 if anyone else would like to join me. I'll be dressed in jeans, t shirt, serpa holster with Glock 19 and an extra mag on weak side. If you want my cell phone number in case anyone needs to get a hold of me, PM me and I will give it to you. Any updates on the return visit to the library? I didn't see your mugshot on adasheriff.org, so I am assuming nothing came of your return visit yesterday? |
|||||||||
|
Pa. Patriot State Researcher
|
Patriot wrote: Pa. Patriot, I agree. particularly with the bold part. However. Your comments are nothing even similar to alphamike's comments. Alphamike claimed "OC scares people". It does not. Alphamike claimed "OC will lead to restrictions on CC". It has not and will not. So while agree with the intelligent and strategic furtherence of OC as a conduit to educate the people about guns and rights, My comments to alphamike stand. |
|||||||||
|
Saint Regular Member
|
563 wrote: Saint wrote:I am returning this afternoon at about 1:45 if anyone else would like to join me. I'll be dressed in jeans, t shirt, serpa holster with Glock 19 and an extra mag on weak side. If you want my cell phone number in case anyone needs to get a hold of me, PM me and I will give it to you. As it turns out I ran into a friend of mine on campus and ended up hanging out with her yesterday afternoon so I never made it back over to the library. I will most likely stop by at some point tomorrow or on monday. I'll update whenever that happens. |
|||||||||
|
Patriot Regular Member
|
Pa. Patriot, you said... Alphamike claimed "OC scares people". It does not. Alphamike claimed "OC will lead to restrictions on CC". It has not and will not. OC usually does not scare people, but to say "it does not" is incorrect. It is probably rare, but YES, sometimes it does scare people. "It has not and will not"........ If we are careful about how we go about it, OC will probably help our cause, but to say that it "It has not and will not" lead to restrictionctions is pretty out there. I gave you a couple of examples of types of OC that would definately lead to restrictions on our rights. I don't agree with everything that Alphamike said and I am not defending him, but he brought up a good point for us to consider. Consider it, accept or reject it, and go on with life, but you will be better for having considered it. |
|||||||||
|
Lthrnck Regular Member 
|
First off... ask the Senator if you guys can maybe make a donation to one of his favorite charities. Second... I don't think OC'ing actually scares most people. Does it raise their level of concern... YES. Do they actually get scared or PANIC... NO.... as least not in my interactions with them or the Police. I was detained in the City of Englewood, OH , city park and threatened with arrest for Disorderly Conduct and Inducing Panic. I challenged the officers and asked them where do you see anyone panicing around here.... yes their level of concern is up.... but I have not induced any panic.. they backed down and asked me to CC my weapon. I did so, and took it up with City Council at a later time. BTW.... after several months , the city also backed down and revised their local ordinance about firearms in the park. You still can not take you BB guns, air soft, sling shots etc into the park... but at least now you can carry you firearm.. OC'ing is just that.. your openly carrying a firearm. People say there's other ways to get our cause visible, just don't get it. OC can only be demostrated one way....BY OPENLY CARRYING your firearm. If I stated that i believed and supported OC, but yet never did it, how would that look. The ant's are hoping we do just that... they want to be able to say.. Why do you need OC, NO ONE DOES IT ANYMORE...!!!! If they ever get out right to OC, it will only take a wink of the eye before they repeal out privilige to CC... Think about it. |
|||||||||
|
Gunslinger Regular Member 
|
The one time I CC'ed in Virginia I felt sneaky, deceptive and dirty even though I had OC'ed for a while and had my CHP. It was not a good feeling and certainly did not feel like I was exercising any right at all. I felt more like a criminal. I am no more ashamed of my gun than I am of my Navy uniform but the latter is merely a symbol of our freedom whilst the former the guarantor. If the purpose of carrying is to defend life, then lets not forget where life and the right to defend it both come from: God. I'm surprised you felt that way. I CC often here, and did in both NH and Va before. I agree to a large extent with Alpha. OC is fine, but there are times and places where CC--assuming you have the permit, is better. You don't need to back down to a bully in a bar, but throwing a drink in his face may not be the most prudent course of action, either. Those anti-gun rabid whiners are, in fact, bullies. They would have us do only what they allow. But, you have to pick your spots to go to the wall. What Saint did was outstanding. Demonstrated clearly his, and our rights, but in a mannered, intelligent way. A lot of smarts for someone as young as he must be. With respect to uniforms: I always felt when wearing my flightsuit it was a guarantor, as well, of our country's values expressed for anyone to see--and especially those who hate our way of life. A Navy uniform is the same, both symbol and guarantor. The gun is a guarantor of our rights within this country. Concealed or openly carried, it is in fact more than a symbol. |
|||||||||
|
UTOC-45-44 Regular Member
|
Gunslinger wrote: The one time I CC'ed in Virginia I felt sneaky, deceptive and dirty even though I had OC'ed for a while and had my CHP. It was not a good feeling and certainly did not feel like I was exercising any right at all. I felt more like a criminal. I am no more ashamed of my gun than I am of my Navy uniform but the latter is merely a symbol of our freedom whilst the former the guarantor. If the purpose of carrying is to defend life, then lets not forget where life and the right to defend it both come from: God. "The one time I CC'ed in Virginia I felt sneaky, deceptive and dirty even though I had OC'ed for a while and had my CHP. It was not a good feeling and certainly did not feel like I was exercising any right at all. I felt more like a criminal." I'm glad I am not the only one that feels sneaky, deceptive and dirty even though I have my CFP and CCW. I like the fact that there are "equals" out there TJ |
|||||||||
|
Pa. Patriot State Researcher
|
Patriot wrote: Pa. Patriot, you said... I agree with your sentiments but your picking nits now. His statements were typical blanket statements from an uninformed position. They are false because they are not 100% true. They are not even %50 true. If one person out of 10,000 gets "scared" it does not make the statement "OC scares people" true. It was said in the context of a factual majority. We both know that doesn't coincide with reality.The only thing alphamike's comment gave to to think about was how unfamiliar he is with, and how little he knows about, OC. |
|||||||||
|
JB Regular Member 
|
Congratulations to all involved. I'm considering sending Senator Mackenzie an email thanking him for his support. Do you think it would be a good idea? Between being a lawyer, a senator, and a family man I'm sure he already has too many irons in the fire. I don't want to be a bother to him, but at the same time would like to express my appreciation. |
|||||||||
|
BobCav Founder's Club Member
|
Gunslinger wrote: The one time I CC'ed in Virginia I felt sneaky, deceptive and dirty even though I had OC'ed for a while and had my CHP. It was not a good feeling and certainly did not feel like I was exercising any right at all. I felt more like a criminal. I am no more ashamed of my gun than I am of my Navy uniform but the latter is merely a symbol of our freedom whilst the former the guarantor. If the purpose of carrying is to defend life, then lets not forget where life and the right to defend it both come from: God. Nah, I really just didn't like CC at all. I agree too and can see where it may be appropriate as I stated in my earlier post, but it's just not for me. Pick not only the fight, but the time and place as well and Saint did that perfectly. But I disagree that it scares the majority of people. As for me, I don't carry at all when I'm drinking and I'm not a bar type anyway. Back in Virginia you can't CC in a place that serves alcohol, can only OC and then can't be intoxicated. Better off just not carrying if you're going to drink and as was mentioned in another thread, I'll bet a LOT of CC'ers still carry in bars even when drinking. Gunslinger, thanks for your service too. I feel a uniform is the symbol OF the guarantor, that being the person wearing it. For without the person inside, it is just cloth. But when worn it becomes so much more. As it is with our flag. To some it's just brightly colored strips of clothsymbolizing our nation, but to those of us who have worn our nations colors, it's becomes so much more. I hope to remain a guarantor even now that I have retired my uniform and even if I were to be disarmed. |
|||||||||
|
Patriot Regular Member
|
OK Pa Patriot, I'll stop picking nits Last edited on Thu May 1st, 2008 11:37 pm by Patriot |
|||||||||
|
Batx00 Regular Member
|
My take on what AlphaMike said is this: Be tactful and careful, if you get the wrong people up set it could mean that this great new law we have might be overturned just because they dont like it. I think he should have chosen his wording better but he is on our side working for our cause, just trying to tells us to be a little more careful. Can you imagine the hayday the press would have had if they had shown up when this was going on? |
|||||||||
|
Sa45auto Regular Member
|
Batx00 wrote:My take on what AlphaMike said is this: I agree completely. Very well said |
|||||||||
|
GeneticsDave Regular Member 
|
So what? Do we ever get to hear this audio recording? Good job Saint! Your exploits are being read in the neighboring state of Utah! |
|||||||||
|
Saint Regular Member
|
The audio recording is not in my possesion right now. I haven't actually had a chance to listen to it yet and I doubt that the sound quality is going to be very good based on the fact the the recorder was at least 10 - 12 feet from me. However, as soon as I get a chance I will try and upload it assuming there is anything able to be heard. |
|||||||||
|
Saint Regular Member
|
Well here is an update for everyone. I am currently sitting and typing this report while on the first floor of the library and am wearing my Glock 19 in my serpa holster and an extra 17 rnd mag on weak side. This is my first time back to the library since last weeks incident. When I entered the library, I walked over to a computer by audio-visual to check on some of my account stuff. Approx two mins later, Tom (the man who began the incident last week) walked up and approached me. He shook my hand, told me congratulations and 'good job knowing the law' He was very pleasent and friendly, and attempted to make sure there were no hard feelings. We talked for about 5 mins or so about open carry and my reasoning on it, and he told me that he understood and had only been trying to follow the policy and that he actually had no problem with it. He then told me he used to carry a .44 and we talked about hunting a little bit. I reiterated to him that my intention is not to cause concern or to make a problem and that it is simply my preferred legal method of carry. He responded that he understood and that I obviously knew the law very well and that I had been very cordial and articulate during the incident last week. In the end he left sounding very supportive of my carry, supportive of the right for students to carry on campus, and in an overall good mood. We officially introduced ourselves to one another and he wished me a good day. So to all the nay-sayers who were predicting a huge backlash from this incident... Instead we have accomplished what we usually do. Education and understanding by the community. The BPD is better informed on gun laws, the library is now operating under correct policy, and good will is held by all. MOLON LABE! |
|||||||||
|
UTOC-45-44 Regular Member
|
Saint wrote: Well here is an update for everyone. I am currently sitting and typing this report while on the first floor of the library and am wearing my Glock 19 in my serpa holster and an extra 17 rnd mag on weak side. Congrats !!! I finally had a good experience with WVCPD in Ut and here is my short story. Both of us has accomplished something very good. Awesome OC experience @ the Local Albertsons TJ |
|||||||||
|
akhunter3 Regular Member 
|
Saint! Congratulations man! Glad that it went so well and it's good to see your getting everyone educated about OC! You seem to be quite the professional! Keep it up! Jon |
|||||||||
|
bobcat Regular Member
|
Excellent job to all involved. This proves knowledge coupled with good attitude provides the basis for a good outcome. It warms the cockles of this old boy's heart to see young men (and their spouses as need be) so meaningfully involved in preserving our Republic. There is a chance. A big tip O the hat and a hearty handshake. Thank you all. |
|||||||||
|
IndianaBoy79 Regular Member 
|
Next OC meetup at the library? |
|||||||||
|
Saint Regular Member
|
Lol... here is an interesting note for those who care... the lead officer (Officer Brek Orton) is flying down to DC tomorrow to receive a special commendation award known as the "Top Cop" award. Link to the article here... http://http://www.cityofboise.org/Departments/Police/CommunityOutreachDivision/CommunityConnections/page26143.aspx Also, one of my friends from work posted my story on the GlockTalk forum and it's been getting pretty positive feedback. Link to that thread is here... http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=869255 |
|||||||||
|
tarzan1888 Regular Member 
|
Saint..... A true modern day Stripling Son, who, though he is very young, stands firm in the face of overwhelming odds. Well done. Tarzan |
|||||||||
|
Comp-tech State Researcher 
|
Well done Saint!...well done. May I ask, did you write a positive note to the PD for their professional manor in this incident? |
|||||||||
|
Patriot Regular Member
|
Keep in mind, guys, The officers did far better than they sometimes do, but they still disarmed Saint, and rather than giving the gun back, stuck it in his backpack unloaded. This is unacceptable. Saint committed no crime but was disarmed. Show me what makes that legal. And don't anybody say, "officer safety" because what they did was not safe (it pissed of a nearby armed citizen-ME). Pissing of a trained, armed individual, who controlls your flank isn't my idea of safe! Most officers who die on the job, die in car wrecks, or are shot by their own buddies, so if they want "officer safety", slow your patrol car the H*** down, and don't aim at your buddies!!! Last edited on Tue May 13th, 2008 04:48 pm by Patriot |
|||||||||
|
Saint Regular Member
|
Comp-tech wrote: Well done Saint!...well done.As Patriot pointed out, although the officers handled themselves with far more professionalism than was expected, they none-the-less confiscated by belonging against my will (read stole) searched my person without cause and without a warrent, publicly emberrassed me, refused to return my belongings to me even after they had determined that I was legal, forced me to leave a public place in violation of state law... etc. The end result is that they are not deserving of receiving a note that thanks them for their actions but I am also not filing a citizens complaint against them or sueing the department or library. The confrontation went better than it could have, but worse than it should have |
|||||||||
|
563 Regular Member
|
Just an update folks. http://www.legislature.idaho.gov/legislation/2009/S1024PrinterFriendly.htm SENATE BILL 1024 Full Text of Bill Statement of Purpose / Fiscal Note S1024 by BOCK FIREARMS - Adds to existing law relating to firearms to provide that political subdivisions of the state may regulate the possession of firearms at certain public meetings and to provide that certain political subdivisions of this state may regulate the possession of firearms within and on the property of public libraries. 01/23 Senate intro - 1st rdg - to printing 01/26 Rpt prt - to St Aff |
|||||||||
|
American Rattlesnake Regular Member 
|
They're trying to undo preemption? How much support is there for something of this nature? |
|||||||||
|
Smoke SFC USA RET Regular Member
|
I'm heading to Boise airport next month and I will oc as normal. I might need some of these contacts there that day. |
|||||||||
|
Saint Regular Member
|
I'll try and get in touch with Senator Mackenzie and Rep. Hart soon. No way this will pass anyway but we definitely need to make sure the legislature understand that selective pre-emption is unacceptable. |
|||||||||
|
Saint Regular Member
|
Who is sponsoring this bill btw? |
|||||||||
|
563 Regular Member
|
Les Bock. (D) from cali http://www.lesbock.org/ http://www.bocklaw.com/ email lesbock@bocklaw.com http://www.bocklaw.com/webstats/ Last edited on Wed Feb 4th, 2009 08:28 pm by 563 |
|||||||||
|
SlackwareRobert Regular Member
|
Well my bad side is showing, perhaps you should ask Tom if they have a copy of "helter skelter" on the shelf. As for the senators gift... either a "my civil rights are showing" T-shirt, autographed of course, or a nice desk ornament with a set of brass b*lls hanging. I can't even get a legible reply from my reps, and you get them on your phone, I am envious, and can see how you get such good strong laws. Myself I would be nervous about having the gun in the back pack so close to the "school zone ban" books.  Can't wait for the audio, or transcripts. Last edited on Mon Feb 9th, 2009 06:09 pm by SlackwareRobert |
|||||||||
|
Eagleeye Regular Member 
|
563 wrote: Les Bock. (D) from cali That explains about 99.99% of it. |
|||||||||
|
Vandal Regular Member
|
I have emailed my state senator regarding this and some other issues I have been thinking about. Last edited on Wed Feb 4th, 2009 11:22 pm by Vandal |
|||||||||
|
563 Regular Member
|
This guy should've known better than to try and mess with our gun laws, doing so will only stir up a hornets nest. |
|||||||||
|
thefirststrike Regular Member
|
So if I have this correct, the fact that Idaho has preemption means that NO municipality can make a law or ordinance that prohibits open carry in any public buildings? Including schools and libraries and courthouses? Is that correct? Pardon me for my ignorance, I am still learning the intricate details of what is and isn't allowed. Dave |
|||||||||
|
Vandal Regular Member
|
The state has already regulated carry where it deems it to be unreasonable and with out purpose, K-12 school, courthouses in the secured areas, places that get more than 51% of revenue from alcohol sales. I am sure I am missing some but those are big ones that hit me right now. There is no law stating that I cannot carry my 45 on college campus'. The problem with that is the State of Idaho has allowed the Universities to create that rule themselves in violation of the Idaho Constitution. You can currently carry in libraries and most public building. The jist of pre-emption is to prevent places like Moscow from making city code that further limits carry like the Mayor up here tried to do after a shooting took place. She basically wanted it to be illegal to carry a gun in moscow. The AG slapped her back into her place on that one. I cannot quote you the State Code right now, give me a few to look it up. |
|||||||||
|
American Rattlesnake Regular Member
|
TITLE 18 CHAPTER 33 18-3302J. PREEMPTION OF FIREARMS REGULATION. (1) The legislature finds that uniform laws regulating firearms are necessary to protect the individual citizen’s right to bear arms guaranteed by amendment 2 of the United States Constitution and section 11, article I of the constitution of the state of Idaho. It is the legislature’s intent to wholly occupy the field of firearms regulation within this state. |
|||||||||
|
thefirststrike Regular Member
|
Thanks Vandal and Rattlesnake. I know I had read the statute before but it would have taken me some time to find it again. Vandal I remember that shooting at the Sheriff's office, and her subsequent efforts to ban guns. My ex-wife and I had some dealings with her before that about some other things not related to guns. She is an idiot. After we met with her I knew what she was all about. I was not surprised to hear that she tried that ban, and I was equally ecstatic when the AG slapped her down. I believe I actually laughed out loud that day!! hehe Dave |
|||||||||
|
Vandal Regular Member
|
I also heard back from Kate Kelly, my state senator, on S1024. She informed me that it was a personal bill sponsored by Bock and is very unlikely to move past a reading to an actual vote. This proves it guys and gals, you write, they listen. I have yet to hear back from Mr. Les Bock regarding my query into his bill. |
|||||||||
|
563 Regular Member
|
Vandal wrote: I have yet to hear back from Mr. Les Bock regarding my query into his bill. It's funny you mention that, as I wrote him too, and told him to move back to Cali. |
|||||||||
|
JB Regular Member
|
Vandal wrote: The state has already regulated carry where it deems it to be unreasonable and with out purpose, K-12 school, courthouses in the secured areas, places that get more than 51% of revenue from alcohol sales. I am sure I am missing some but those are big ones that hit me right now. There is no law stating that I cannot carry my 45 on college campus'. The problem with that is the State of Idaho has allowed the Universities to create that rule themselves in violation of the Idaho Constitution. You can currently carry in libraries and most public building. Are you sure on the bold part? That would be news to me. |
|||||||||
|
Vandal Regular Member
|
That is how I have understood it. If you can show me code to the opposite, I am all for knowing more. |
|||||||||
|
JB Regular Member
|
TITLE 18 CRIMES AND PUNISHMENTS CHAPTER 33 FIREARMS, EXPLOSIVES AND OTHER DEADLY WEAPONS 18-3302C. PROHIBITED CONDUCT. Any person obtaining a license under the provisions of section 18-3302, Idaho Code, shall not: (1) Carry a concealed weapon in a courthouse, juvenile detention facility or jail, public or private school, except as provided in subsection (4)(f) of section 18-3302D, Idaho Code;...... This is pertaining to concealed weapons, but I assume it would also apply to open carry. |
|||||||||
|
American Rattlesnake Regular Member
|
I was just about to post that, JB. Vandal, do you have any citations to back up your assertion about places where alcohol sales make up 51% of the revenue? |
|||||||||
|
Vandal Regular Member
|
I don't. I am trying to look it up but friggin homework is drowning me. If anyone knows something I don't, I am willing to learn. |
|||||||||
|
American Rattlesnake Regular Member
|
Vandal wrote: I don't. I am trying to look it up but friggin homework is drowning me. If anyone knows something I don't, I am willing to learn. Good luck. I know homework can really be a burden at times. It will pass. The only statute I can find with respect to firearms and alcohol is below, which has no reference to a place of business. Obviously, I may be overlooking a statute and any further information is welcome TITLE 18 CRIMES AND PUNISHMENTS CHAPTER 33 FIREARMS, EXPLOSIVES AND OTHER DEADLY WEAPONS 18-3302B.Carrying concealed weapons under the influence of alcohol or drugs. It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a concealed weapon on or about his person when intoxicated or under the influence of an intoxicating drink or drug. Any violation of the provisions of this section shall be a misdemeanor. |
|||||||||
|
DCR Regular Member
|
Well, it looks like your pencil-necked librarian went to his buddy and got him to propose a bill!! It's Les Bock, District 16, who's proposing this bill. Contact info here: http://www.legislature.idaho.gov/about/contactmembersform.cfm?ID=10 Why not let him know what we think of it, and that we know the genesis of this idea. Mebbe oughta let the librarian know, too - Don't know which committee it's been sent to, but contact the committee chair ASAP and ask that the bill never see the light of day. It's truly surprising how many pieces of legislation get lost in the desk drawers of the committee chairs... |
|||||||||
|
Vandal Regular Member
|
Look above in the thread, you'll find I did just that. I got a response from Kate Kelly that the bill is a "personal" bill is won't make it past the reading and will most likely die a horrible death in committee. I attempted to contact Les Bock but for some odd reason (note: sarcasm) he has yet to respond to me. The best thing we can do is continue to write to him in a professional and not emotionally based manner and ask his reasoning for the bill and what the voting public's opinion is. Also be sure to write to your state senators to voice your opinion so they will know how to vote if it ever comes up. |
|||||||||
|
Saint Regular Member
|
DCR wrote: Well, it looks like your pencil-necked librarian went to his buddy and got him to propose a bill!! I have a feeling the librarian (Tom) had nothing to do with this. I was in the library for the first time in over a 2 months this week and Tom made it a point to come up and say hi. He and I chatted for about 5 mins and he was very nice and had absolutely nothing but good things to say in regards to OC. This is something Bock is doing and he needs to be shut down ASAP |
|||||||||
|
DCR Regular Member
|
Saint: I'm glad to hear you have had good interactions with the librarian recently, and I apparently stand corrected. I apologize for using disparaging terms toward the librarian, who, based on your description, sounds like a nice guy - someone I'd like to meet and befriend. If Tom is reading, I am sorry for speaking speculatively and without personal knowledge. |
|||||||||
|
GoneFromForum Guest
|
Man, I sure wish some of you guys were on this side of the state. I havent the knowledge or b@lls to try blatant OC at the I.F. library,....yet. But itd be nice to have someone that could have my back when I do. Ah well, at least Im not the Solo- E. Idaho member anymore. Kudo's again Saint. |
|||||||||
|
chrsjhnsn Regular Member
|
what a great thread! I got the boot from Reno public library, I went in off duty in my security guard uniform ( armed ) I think even ccw is illegal in NV libraries, of course registered sex offenders are able to use the library all day |
|||||||||
|
Ian Lone Star Veteran 
|
What an awesome encounter! And what a bonus that the police department understood that they were in the wrong and that they would educate fellow officers. Stories like this really help people new to OC feel more comfortable. Hats off to you in how you handled the situation. |
|||||||||
|
rpyne Regular Member
|
If SB1024 passes the outcome of this will be different. SB1024 authorizes local entities to ban weapons in public meetings and public libraries. |
|||||||||
|
Vandal Regular Member
|
rpyne wrote:If SB1024 passes the outcome of this will be different. SB1024 authorizes local entities to ban weapons in public meetings and public libraries. Go back to page 7 and see what my state Senator told me. S1024 was sent off to die. |
|||||||||
|
rpyne Regular Member
|
I admit I do not most of the Idaho legislators and am not completely up to speed on the process there, but it appears to be similar to Utah. Even though you have been assured that the bill will die, it is important to watch it closely because such things have a way of being resurrected at the end of the session and passing without any warning. |
|||||||||
|
Idaho Born Regular Member
|
Patriot - Just some statistics for you. In Idaho's history 55 Police Officers have died in the line of duty. 33 were killed by gunfire, and 4 were killed in car accidents. In 2008 the United States lost 135 Officers in duty related incidents - - 2 were killed in explosions. - 2 were stabbed. - 37 were shot. - 11 were killed by vehicular assault. - 39 died in auto accidents. I think you would find that most Officers are on your side, and agree with what you do. You seem to have an 'US versus THEM' mentality. Just an observation. Last edited on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 12:15 pm by Idaho Born |
|||||||||
|
smoking357 Banned 
|
Saint wrote:
In Florida, you'd have been killed. You're my hero. |
|||||||||
|
IdahoCorsair State Researcher
|
Idaho Born wrote: Patriot -I get the statistics. So we should ban cars and not guns, right? The sad truth is MOST (over 50%) of LEOs are the types that don't give a damn about rights, citizens lives, or the truth. I know a number personally and train many from various states. They're a bunch of worthless rejects who couldn't get a job elsewhere and have an axe to grind. Most are corrupt... just not in the bribe sense... but in the sense where they will tell you not to do things that they know to be legal, they lie and manipulate you into confessing what you didn't do (just look at what you're taught to get people to say in POST), they bully and try to intimidate you into not doing things they don't like rather than upholding the LAW, they delete audio that damns them, they do not not care about violating people's rights (mostly cause they don't know what they are, but when they do, they usually don't care) and overall have an ego/control complex. That said there are many fine LEOs in this state and across the country. That many in my book translates into significantly under 10%. Half are maybe just there for a job. And the rest (30% or so) are class one A-holes who enjoy violating people's right behind the cloak of a badge. The "Us v. them" mentality originated with the LE side of thing IMHO. Did you see the recent Idaho POST graduation slogan that was printed on their graduating program? "Don't suffer from PTSD, go out and cause it!" Kinda sums it up doesn't it? Makes me wonder with your two posts why you singled this one (Patriot's post) out among all the rest? Hm. Do I smell a badge? But what do I know, I've just trained feds and state cops and military and local PD guys for several years now. Last edited on Thu Apr 2nd, 2009 01:25 am by IdahoCorsair |
|||||||||
|
Idaho Born Regular Member
|
Idaho Corsair - Yes, I am a cop - wasn't trying to hide it... I joined this site because I support your cause...and do not think either guns, nor cars need to be 'banned.' Most of the officers I know all agree that more people need to own and carry firearms...crime would signifigantly drop. I was simply here to learn more about it, and offer an opinion from someone who may get dispatched to a call regarding you, because a citizen called 911 when they don't understand, or don't like the open carry concept. As you probably know, a lot of citzens out there believe it is illegal to carry a firearm in the open. You speak about training officers, but your opinion of them is so low. Why do the training then? Seems counter productive to go to a training class when everyone you are about to instruct is so 'worthless' Regarding the Idaho POST slogan. It was stupid, and showed very poor management from those at POST. It wasn't indicative of a certain person, and (obviously) these were brand new officers, many of whom probably will never complete training to actually work the streets. POST is simply poor managed academy that officers in Idaho HAVE to go through, because POST won't let the bigger agencies form their own academies (then how would they justify the existence of POST?). I gained little from POST, and most of what I learned was through the second academy my agency provides, and the field training. |
|||||||||
|
BB62 State Researcher
|
Idaho Born wrote: Idaho Corsair - Welcome to OCDO!! Having seen a few LEOs recently take their ball and go home, whatever you do, don't get unduly worked up by those here ("here" being the board, not this thread) who lack nuance or who may be inarticulate on the subject of LEOs. P.S. - A good way to see subjects across the US is to click on the main discussion forum, then click "Recent". Again, welcome. |
|||||||||
|
Tekman Regular Member 
|
Vandal wrote
Good for Idaho! |
|||||||||
|
Statesman Regular Member 
|
Absolutely amazing! Great work on your part for sticking with your understanding of state law. Reading through the beginning of the encounter, I was sort of expecting a throw down and maybe a taze or two, then a pending lawsuit. Boise PD is to be commended for their professional behavior, and support of a citizens right to carry. I think they were doing their due diligence NOT to violate your rights. +1 |
|||||||||
|
IDEagleEye Regular Member
|
OK - I have read all 8 pages of this post with great interest, looking for one item I think is very relevant - and I don't see it. I work in downtown Boise, cc frequently (with permit of course), but haven't oc'd in a long time. I am very interested in the part about being able to carry in public buildings except the ones outlined in the cc law such as K-12 schools, secure areas of jails, etc. I don't know how many of you have seen this (if anyone), but there is an executive order signed by then-governor Phil Batt back in 1996 declaring the Capital Mall Area a weapons-free zone EXECUTIVE ORDER NO. 96-03 ESTABLISH THE CAPITOL MALL AREA AS A WEAPON FREE ZONE You can see it here: http://adm.idaho.gov/adminrules/bulletin/bul/96bul/apr96.pdf "Capitol Mall Area" means: the Statehouse, Joe R. Williams Building (700 West State Street); Len B. Jordan Building (650 West State Street); State Parking Garage (550 West State Street) and the Towers Building (450 West State Street), including all underground tunnels which provide a walkway between these buildingsI assume the new pre-emption law you are talking about would affect this, but haven't seen anything on it. |
|||||||||