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OpenCarry.org - Discussion Forum > Stories From The States > Pennsylvania > Legal help - City of Wilkes Barre, PA Police pull a Dickson City, then retreat under cone of silence
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| OpenCarry.org - Discussion Forum > Stories From The States > Pennsylvania > Legal help - City of Wilkes Barre, PA Police pull a Dickson City, then retreat under cone of silence
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| Moderated by: jpierce | ||
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mystery_man Regular Member
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Hey guys! Anyone have the name of a good open-carry lawyer in the Wilkes-Barre area? I was stopped by WBPD last night while walking and they took my firearm. I was told that Pennsylvania doesn't recognize out-of-state permits. They also told me to come in to HQ with my lawyer on Monday to pick up my firearm. Any ideas for a good lawyer? Anyone want to come with me on Monday? Thanks! A.J. Last edited on Sun Jun 8th, 2008 05:16 pm by mystery_man |
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Pa. Patriot State Researcher 
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mystery_man wrote: Hey guys! Anyone have the name of a good open-carry lawyer in the Wilkes-Barre area? I was stopped by WBPD last night while walking and they took my firearm. I was told that Pennsylvania doesn't recognize out-of-state permits. They also told me to come in to HQ with my lawyer on Monday to pick up my firearm. Any ideas for a good lawyer? Anyone want to come with me on Monday? Thanks! Well, this is disturbing. Obviously they are VERY incorrect about the out of state "permits". And no "permit" required to OC of course. If you were commiting no crime they had 0 reason to seize your firearm. Sounds like another PD wanting some legal schooling. I have your info from your PM and wil call. Oddly, on Wed I was standing, talking to someone on the sidewalk, two buildings down from WBPD. Saw probably 6-7 patrol cars go by and no one said a word. |
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Mike Super Moderator
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wow - another gun confiscation! Don't get the gun - let 'em sweat now - their conduct was totally unlawful. |
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Steve in PA Regular Member
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If the story is true........ The WBPD are idiots for not knowing the laws. PA most certain does recognize out of state permits and you do not need a lawyer to pick up your firearm. I would walk in their and state you are there to pick up your property. They firearm was seized illegally and anyone refusing to cooperate with you is in violation of the law. Of course they will probably blow you off. |
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gnbrotz Activist Member
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Steve in PA wrote: If the story is true........Not to mention that the out of state permit issue is of no consequence whatsoever, since the OP was openly carrying his firearm on foot. |
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yankees98a Regular Member
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Only case would be if you concealed with out of state permit and was a resident of that state. |
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Pa. Patriot State Researcher
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I've spoken with the OP via phone and will say without pause that the incident is worse than he describes. Relevant points are: WBPD stopped a man for mere open carrying on his after dinner walk because of a 911 call. WBPS, without PC, felony stopped the OP. WBPD made numerous and continuing derogatory and foul mouthed remarks during the encounter. WBPD seized the OP's firearm and refused to return it. Without PC or legal reason. WBPD had made a bad boo-boo. Last edited on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 01:33 am by Pa. Patriot |
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gnbrotz Activist Member
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yankees98a wrote: Only case would be if you concealed with out of state permit and was a resident of that state.Doesn't matter in PA. |
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Pa. Patriot State Researcher
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yankees98a wrote: Only case would be if you concealed with out of state permit and was a resident of that state. As noted by gnbrotz. PA recognizes FL resident and non-resident licenses. |
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Statkowski Regular Member 
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Add to the list of boo-boos: Probably didn't give a receipt, either. |
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Mike Super Moderator
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yankees98a wrote: Only case would be if you concealed with out of state permit and was a resident of that state. Huh? PA residents CAN carry on out of state CHPs and LTCFs. |
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Mike Super Moderator
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Statkowski wrote: Add to the list of boo-boos: Probably didn't give a receipt, either. I think you will be proven to be correctamundo! Receipts? We don't need no stinkin' receipts! |
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Steve in PA Regular Member
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Pa. Patriot wrote: I've spoken with the OP via phone and will say without pause that the incident is worse than he describes. Can't wait to see the crap hit the fan on this one. |
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mombrown1 Regular Member 
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Two important websites Pennsylvania Uniform Firearms Code http://www.acslpa.org/pa_uniform_firearms_act.htm PA Attorney General Reciprocity page http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/crime.aspx?id=184 Are you a resident? If not does PA have reciprocity with your state? This is what I would do 1. Contact the local state Senator or Representative and obtain a copy of the PA Gun Law Book and inform them what has happened. 2. Take the book to the police station, be sure to take a witness with you, request to see the Chief of Police. Nicely explain what has happened and nicely request that he show you the law, and hand him the book, that does not allow you to open carry in PA. Be sure to tell him/her that you have contacted the legislator. 3. If that doesn't work request a meeting with him and the Mayor. 4. After meeting with both without getting your gun back then you contact a lawyer. 5. Report the incident to Firearm Owners Against Crime FOAC Kim Stolfer (activist@fyi.net). They keep a registry of all these incidents throughout the state. Document everything and be sure to have a witness to everything. |
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Mike Super Moderator
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mombrown1 wrote: Two important websites The man resides in NJ, and was open carrying on foot, so he needed no license. The police apparently took it upon themselves to seize his gun without cause, andengage him with non-sensical conversation - possibly some kind of sick joke or retaliation for Dickson Dozen incident. |
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Pa. Patriot State Researcher
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Do NOT, under any circumstances, go to the PD without attorney representation. Now that they have let you go - you are in control. Do not relinquish that control by talking to the same police that illegally detained you and illegally seized your property. Step 1) Contact attorney. Step 2) Do what your attorney tells you. |
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deepdiver Activist Member 
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WOW. Felony stopped him for a legal act? He may end up a wealthier man than he began. Seems PA has a growing problem with law enforcers who do not know the law. |
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Thundar Regular Member 
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Habeas Arma! Habeas Arma! |
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apjonas Regular Member
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Pa. Patriot wrote: I've spoken with the OP via phone and will say without pause that the incident is worse than he describes. Everytime I see WBPD, I immediately think it's a radio station. Anyway, Mr. Patriot (or can I call you Pa?) - just to be precise - PC is not the standard for an investigatory stop, RAS is. No, I am not saying the disc jockeys, err, police had RAS - I just wanted to keep the discussion from getting sloppy. I know you know the difference but others may not. No details need to be given but by "derogatory and foul mouthed" do you mean terms dealing with carrying a gun (e.g. gun nut, cowboy, assclown) or something really offensive (religious, racial, scatological epithets etc.)? Thought we might have us a "hate" crime to boot. |
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mombrown1 Regular Member
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I was only relating what has worked for me. Last year my township manager posted signs on all the township building doors that if a person wanted to bring a gun into the building he/she had to report to the police first. There is no courtroom in the building. I got together with the manager and the Chief of Police and was told the signs were going to stay. I suggested at the end he talk to the township attorney who just happened to be in the lobby as I left the meeting. The attorney told both that if they didn't take down the signs I would sue and they would lose 'big time.' The signs were down that day. Personally I don't like an inital 'attack' but would rather try to work it out. It was good the signs came down because, they didn't know it, but I was PO'd and on the phone calling an attorney as I left the building. Add to it the Chief of Police thought it acceptable to break state law, he pandered to me telling me that at my age I should retire from activism and enjoy my grandchildren. I reported the entire incident to two township commissioners. Three months later the manager was asked to retire. I am still working to get rid of the police chief. |
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Statkowski Regular Member
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No signs either for the Borough of Cherry Tree in Indiana County. And, the Borough Council President carries during Borough Council meetings. |
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mystery_man Regular Member
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Hey guys! I just wanted to give you a quick update on what happened: I was out for a walk after dinner (open-carry). Wilkes-Barre City police stopped me because someone called 911. My firearm was taken from me. I was cursed at and insulted. Then I was told that open-carry is not allowed. That only police officers can open-carry. And that Pennsylvania doesn't recognize any out-of-state concealed carry permits. They gave no legal reason for the seizure of my firearm. And if I wanted my firearm back I would have to go down to police HQ on Monday with a lawyer. I have contacted an attorney and am following his instructions. A.J. |
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yankees98a Regular Member
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How is that legal? Let's say I apply for PA permit as a PA Resident and get denied.. I then apply for Fl permit. Now I can carry in PA? Mike wrote: yankees98a wrote:Only case would be if you concealed with out of state permit and was a resident of that state. |
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gnbrotz Activist Member
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yankees98a wrote: How is that legal? Let's say I apply for PA permit as a PA Resident and get denied.. I then apply for Fl permit. Now I can carry in PA? That is correct. Don't tell me this is the first time you've heard of a law or governement policy that didn't make sense.  |
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mombrown1 Regular Member
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That's because the state police have screwed up illegal database. |
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PisnNapalm Regular Member
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If/when you get your firearm back, try to determine if it's been fired. Ask if they ran the s/n through the "registry". |
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JSK333 Regular Member
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This is exactly why "color of law" statutes exist. If PA doesn't have its own, this should fall under the federal statute (Title 42 USC 1983), since it's also a 2nd Amendment issue. But, I imagine your lawyer would know about these. I'm glad you're not letting this go and kowtow'ing to their high-handedness. |
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Aran Banned
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Statkowski wrote: No signs either for the Borough of Cherry Tree in Indiana County. And, the Borough Council President carries during Borough Council meetings.I hear he's a cranky old goat though.  |
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imperialism2024 Regular Member 
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Let's not give anyone any ideas ... Last edited on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 03:24 pm by jpierce |
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Pa. Patriot State Researcher
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http://www.wilknetwork.com/ Just got off the radio w/ Sue Henry. CLick "listen now" They are taking calls now. Sue got a response from the Wilkes-Barre PD regarding the incident Sat. As posted in: http://www.pafoa.org/forum/concealed-open-carry-121/25386-violated-wilkes-barre-open-carry.html Post #64 |
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Mike Super Moderator
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I hope our man AJ stands tall on this and refuses to bring in proof of nothin'! I'd also like Wilkes Barre to release a few seconds of this 911 tape - I find it hard to believe that the report was that he had his gun "in his hand." |
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brey1234 Regular Member
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Jensen, 28, decided to give it a try. A few days later, his gun was visible, dangling from a black holster strapped around his hip as he walked into a Costco. His heart raced as he ordered a Polish dog at the counter. No one called police. No one stopped him. He now carries his Glock 23 openly into his bank, restaurants and shopping centers. He wore the gun to a Ron Paul rally. He and his wife, Clachelle, drop off their 5-year-old daughter at elementary school with pistols dangling from their hip holsters and never have received a complaint or a wary look.  http://tinyurl.com/4gsa6k |
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Pa. Patriot State Researcher
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This is the WBPD reply/release as read by Sue Henry on the air today:
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jaredbelch Founder's Club Member
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Pa. Patriot wrote: This is the WBPD reply/release as read by Sue Henry on the air today: What a load of crap! Seriously how does a state with "no firearm registry" even pretend to establish ownership other than by possession? I can see running the serial number, DURING A VALID TERRY STOP, to see if it's stolen, but c'mon this is ridiculous. |
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Mike Super Moderator
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Pa. Patriot wrote: This is the WBPD reply/release as read by Sue Henry on the air today: Yea - somebody tell AJ he was not detained! |
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Pa. Patriot State Researcher
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We see the same ignorance that bit Dickson City on the bum rear it's ugly head again with Wilkes-Barre City PD. There is no duty to prove ownership. The PSP database is NOT a database or registry of ownership. And we also again see the police fail to man-up and admit the error. Instead they are going to foolishly play through on the premise that they are acting appropriately. Their own statement admits guilt on their part. They really don't realize how much worse this will make things for them. Oh well. |
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imperialism2024 Regular Member
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Pa. Patriot wrote: We see the same ignorance that bit Dickson City on the bum rear it's ugly head again with Wilkes-Barre City PD. Well, at least this time they didn't try to suppress anyone from videotaping the incident...  |
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DJ TURNz Regular Member
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Patriot, do you have tape of the radio show? This is BS. Why do these police departments think that they don't have to obey the law. I am getting tired of reading about this stuff. I hope they get what they deserve, and I hope the OP gets what he deserves too. |
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Pa. Patriot State Researcher
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DJ TURNz wrote: Patriot, do you have tape of the radio show? Yes. It's being processed (cleaned up) and posted today. |
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Pa. Patriot State Researcher
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WILK is discussing open carry again this AM. And taking calls. http://www.wilknetwork.com/ CLick "listen now" |
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DJ TURNz Regular Member
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I guess I missed it. They don't appear to be taking calls. |
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imperialism2024 Regular Member
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So, has the OP reported the gun stolen yet? |
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mystery_man Regular Member
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Hey everyone! I'm still here... just can't comment on the statements made by the City of Wilkes-Barre just yet. I have an attorney and have been told not to disclose any information at this time. This weekend I will try to answer some of the general questions that have been posted in the forums. I also wanted to thank everyone for their support and encouragement both here and over at pafoa.com. It's nice to know that there are people to turn to in times like these. Thank you. A.J. |
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deepdiver Activist Member
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mystery_man wrote: Hey everyone! I'm still here... just can't comment on the statements made by the City of Wilkes-Barre just yet. I have an attorney and have been told not to disclose any information at this time. This weekend I will try to answer some of the general questions that have been posted in the forums.We are all in this together regardless of where such abuses occur in the USA. If all gun owners always had each other's backs when they were in the right we wouldn't have gotten into this mess in the first place. |
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Aran Banned
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deepdiver wrote: mystery_man wrote:Unfortunately, some gun owners like to pretend things never happen, and call anyone who has issues a liar.Hey everyone! I'm still here... just can't comment on the statements made by the City of Wilkes-Barre just yet. I have an attorney and have been told not to disclose any information at this time. This weekend I will try to answer some of the general questions that have been posted in the forums.We are all in this together regardless of where such abuses occur in the USA. If all gun owners always had each other's backs when they were in the right we wouldn't have gotten into this mess in the first place. |
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Mike Super Moderator
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deepdiver wrote: We are all in this together regardless of where such abuses occur in the USA. If all gun owners always had each other's backs when they were in the right we wouldn't have gotten into this mess in the first place. Right! Reports from PA say that some police departments do this to concealed carriers too who are dumb enough to notify they are carrying! |
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Citizen Founder's Club Member
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Mike wrote: Pa. Patriot wrote:This is the WBPD reply/release as read by Sue Henry on the air today: How can you not be detained but have personal property seized off your person? The report is self-contradictory. You don't have to know or believe AJ. All you have to do is read the report to know something smells. Hahahhahahahahahaha! What a bunch of incompetents. Last edited on Thu Jun 12th, 2008 02:23 am by Citizen |
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johnnyb Banned 
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i hope yo ustick it to them as hard as you possibly can sue the city for as much money as possible and try to get those officers fired. maybe they'll get real jobs that generate wealth for this country rather than waste it |
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Glock Fan Regular Member 
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imperialism2024 wrote: So, has the OP reported the gun stolen yet? Like that idea. Would be interesting to hear the answer.  gf Last edited on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 08:33 am by Glock Fan |
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Glock Fan Regular Member
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Let's not give anyone any ideas ... Last edited on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 03:23 pm by jpierce |
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Moon Doggie Regular Member
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This is getting to be epidemic, especially in Pennsylvania. You would THINK that after the DC episode with PA Patriot that all other Police Depts. in Penn. would know the OC Law by now? or maybe in some ODD way the WBPD thinks that they are helping their DCPD brethren out Either way, it looks like the entire State of PA. needs a refresher course for their Police Depts. on OC Laws? One more question, on the Pa. State Police " Owner Registry" if this is illegal and they have already admitted to using this illegal registry, won't this give them extra rope to hang themselves? and will this lawsuit make the State Police abandon this illegal AND stupid registry? I hope you guys spank them good, it seems in this day and age SOME Police Depts. think they are above the law themselves and I for one do not trust the Police Depts. anymore for "Common Sense" reports Moon Doggie |
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imperialism2024 Regular Member
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Moon Doggie wrote: One more question, on the Pa. State Police " Owner Registry" if this is illegal and they have already admitted to using this illegal registry, won't this give them extra rope to hang themselves? and will this lawsuit make the State Police abandon this illegal AND stupid registry? Well, IIRC, over the years the PSP has received several memos from the US Dept. of Justice telling them to shut down the database, and have yet to do so... I don't think these incidents will have much effect, especially with King Edward at the helm of the state. The best way to fix the problem is to give Philadelphia away to New Jersey. Without the votes and corresponding "representation" of the cretins inhabiting that @#$%hole, Pennsylvania's state government would be able to reflect the interests of the whole state. At this rate, I can't see it taking very long before Pennsylvania turns into New York... a relatively decent state with relatively decent people, that is dragged down by a single city that doesn't understand anything but socialist nanny-statism. |
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Pa. Patriot State Researcher
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UPDATE: PART I mystery_man has his firearm back. I accompanied Mystery_Man to the WBPD and he successfully retrieved his firearm. Not much to say about the specifics except that he did not prove ownership. WBPD did not seem happy to see me (or maybe it was my sidearm?), if looks could kill I would not be posting right now. MM is a real class act, upon completion of the formalities and ultimate return of his firearm, he preceded to holster it up right there (he wore his empty holster) and tucked his shirt in behind it We then walked up to the town square to get some pizza and then stood on the sidewalk talking by our parked cars (across from the PD) for about 45 minutes or so. Other than some dirty looks and even a couple approving looks, WBPD didn't seem to have an issue with our OC today like they did on 6/7  PART II ...tomorrow Last edited on Sat Jun 28th, 2008 05:49 am by Pa. Patriot |
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Citizen Founder's Club Member
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asforme Activist Member
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Pa. Patriot wrote: he preceded to holster it up right there (he wore his empty holster) and tucked his shirt in behind it Did he load it and chamber a round? If he did, this dude has way more balls than I do. I would think that would be an invitation to be shot by police. |
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lprgcFrank Regular Member 
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Pa. Patriot wrote: ... upon completion of the formalities and ultimate return of his firearm, he preceded to holster it up right there (he wore his empty holster) and tucked his shirt in behind it  What Stones! Outstanding way to get right back into OC! |
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Moon Doggie Regular Member
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asforme wrote: Pa. Patriot wrote:he preceded to holster it up right there (he wore his empty holster) and tucked his shirt in behind it Why would chambering a round in his LAWFUL gun that was ILLEGALY taken and RETURNED by the POLICE take balls ? Something is either LEGAL or ILLEGAL and having a round IN the chamber is LEGAL now if the police would have taken the gun again when he chambered the round, well THAT would have taken Balls and would probably have lightened the City's bank acct. a little also. But good job to Mystery_Man and Pa. Patriot  Moon Doggie |
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Pa. Patriot State Researcher
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Let's attend WB city council meeting on 7/10... Discussion thread here: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum46/12741.html |
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Moon Doggie Regular Member
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Pa. Patriot Are you the guy that was arrested in the Dickson City OC Police fiasco? if you are, GOD Bless ya, if not, GOD Bless ya anyway I am waiting on my CCW Permit as I type this, I tok my class on June 7th and turned in my Application on June 11th, and have been waiting ever since for the "Freedom Call" from the SO telling me to come pick the CCW Permit, I'm worse than a 8 year old at Christmas time Even when (if) I get my CCW Permit I think I am going to OC a few times a month, but I seriously don't believe that there will be any problems or strange looks because I live in a "Hilljack" heavy County and this sort of thing is accepted and widely know in this County, of course I can OC in Stark County and probably get a different reaction from Stark County residents, then again maybe not as I am NOT from Stark County so maybe it wouldn't be a big thing ? But keep after the Police until they are educated in laws that the Police SHOULD already be educated in and keep up the GREAT Work! |
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Pa. Patriot State Researcher
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Thanks for the comment, Moon.... Yes, I am "that guy" |
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Pointman Regular Member 
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Pa. Patriot wrote: MM is a real class act, upon completion of the formalities and ultimate return of his firearm, he preceded to holster it up right there (he wore his empty holster) and tucked his shirt in behind it. I laughed so hard I almost cried. Hopefully he let the slide slam a round into the pipe before holstering. While the practice of openly carrying a firearm has recently come under heavy attack by some police officers and departments, we should all remember that officers and citizens are on the same side in the majority of situations. Please cooperate with police and represent yourself and open carry well. Follow up on rights violations afterward, if the situation calls for such action. Do know your rights in advance, and use common sense at all times. |
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Moon Doggie Regular Member
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Pa. Patriot wrote: Thanks for the comment, Moon.... Yes, I am "that guy" Good Deal Pa. Patriot, keep up the GREAT work and if you are ever in or near Tuscarawas County Ohio (New Philadelphia/Dover area) let me know and I'll buy ya lunch Moon Doggie |
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mystery_man Regular Member
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Hey guys! As you already know... - I got my firearm back. - I did NOT prove ownership. - WBPD was NOT happy to see Pa. Patriot. - I will DEFINITELY be attending the WB city council meeting on 7/10. It feels great to have my firearm back and to be open-carrying again... A.J.  |
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Rattrapper Regular Member
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Hey All, I have gained the experience that the only time POLICE MANAGERS and CITY or TOWN OFFICIALS hold the officers accountable or prperly train them is when some one TAKES MONEY OUT OF THEIR POCKET, I have over 27 years in police work and this is a common theme. So I hope you are still going to sue them. For failure to train, Failure to supervise and deliberent indifference. Good Luck |
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Moon Doggie Regular Member
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Rattrapper wrote: Hey All, I have gained the experience that the only time POLICE MANAGERS and CITY or TOWN OFFICIALS hold the officers accountable or prperly train them is when some one TAKES MONEY OUT OF THEIR POCKET, I have over 27 years in police work and this is a common theme. So I hope you are still going to sue them. For failure to train, Failure to supervise and deliberent indifference. Seems to be the ONLY WAY to get these Liberal's to listen or wise up and stop the illegal Laws/Actions that some Police Depts. dream up on their own |
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