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OpenCarry.org - Discussion Forum > Stories From The States > Ohio > First post... stopped for OC in Willowick ohio
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| OpenCarry.org - Discussion Forum > Stories From The States > Ohio > First post... stopped for OC in Willowick ohio
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rDigital Regular Member 
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In Willowick, OH I was walking down the street and was approached from behind by a police cruiser. I was told to put my hands on my head and to get on my knees, for officer safety I would assume. The officer told me that he was stopping me for carrying a weapon. He stated that a local resident called them to say that I was carrying a firearm. Within a few seconds there were 4 other officers on the scene each with their own vehicle. 1 vehicle was unmarked but it was driven by a uniformed officer. I explained to them that I was not doing anything illegal. The sergeant that showed up stated that I was doing something illegal and that I was infact inducing a panic. I have heard before that this is what officers would say about an openly carried weapon in public. I explained to them that this right is guaranteed to me by the Constitution of the United States of America and that the state of Ohio has even greater protections for the right to bear arms and that I am not here to cause a problem. I was just going to get lunch, and would like to do so in peace. They were notified that I have an CCW permit in the state of Ohio. He told me that I have the permit and that I have to carry concealed. One of the officers said, "what do you think people are going to think when they see you carrying that gun on your hip down the street? With all of the things that have been happening in the media. You know how people are." I stated that he was carrying a gun and that didn't seem to alarm people and that most people who encounter me are very friendly and ask questions about OC'ing. To which he responded that he has a badge and a uniform. The conversation ended with basically I am not allowed to OC in Willowick. The sergeant stated that he was not a gun grabber, but that this was just not acceptable to be OC'ing around here. I have to hand it to most of the officers for being kind of friendly. The sergeant that I was dealing with was the one driving the situation and was very stern throughout the confrontation. I was not disarmed and was carrying two pistols (Sig P229 OC, Glock 27 CC undershirt). I really respect them for not disarming me. On a lighter note: One of the officers told me I would be better off carrying another mag for the Sig instead of the Glock, but I was carrying another mag for the Sig already. He got a laugh out of it as did I. Another officer said that I was more well armed than any of them..and another chimed in "not quite". I didn't see what he was carrying because he was behind me, but I'll take his word for it. I have the confrontation recorded and converted to mp3. The recording ended at 9:59 seconds, but there was not much of interest after that. The officer basically made me aware that I was not to OC anymore because I would be charged with inducing a panic. I know I did not cover the entire conversation in this post there was a good amount more to it, but I just wanted to get this out there. I really have to say that I am more than a little intimidated to OC around here anymore. I do have my CCW, but I like to open carry for the comfort (no IWB) and I enjoy educating the lay person of their rights. I don't want to be a test case. Any thoughts, Ideas? |
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Pauly Regular Member 
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I wouldn't hesitate to contact this officer's superior and inform him/her of what happened. This is unacceptable behavior as you weren't doing anything illegal. His threat that you would be charged with inducing panic is just that... a threat. If they were going to charge you with inducing panic they would have. Don't be bullied but don't be a dick either. Just contact some higher ups and go from there. I wouldn't drop it where the situation ended but that's just my opinion. Having you get on your knees on the city street is also uncalled for but others may disagree. And welcome to the board. I haven't been here too long but have gained exponential amounts of education from the rest of the group. I hope you stick around and clear this matter with your local police department. |
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Ohio Patriot Regular Member
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The sergeant that showed up stated that I was doing something illegal Lie. and that I was in fact inducing a panic. Lie. He told me that I have the permit and that I have to carry concealed. Lie. One of the officers said, "what do you think people are going to think when they see you carrying that gun on your hip down the street? Hopefully they will think, "Now there's a guy who values his rights." To which he responded that he has a badge and a uniform. The conversation ended with basically I am not allowed to OC in Willowick. Lie. The sergeant stated that he was not a gun grabber, but that this was just not acceptable to be OC'ing around here. That may be his opinion. But it is not the law. The officer basically made me aware that I was not to OC anymore because I would be charged with inducing a panic. Well, it's true you might be charged. But it would be a false charge, and probably a case of Deprivation of Rights Under Color of Law. I really have to say that I am more than a little intimidated to OC around here anymore. I do have my CCW, but I like to open carry for the comfort (no IWB) and I enjoy educating the lay person of their rights. I don't want to be a test case. Any thoughts, Ideas? Yes... continue to open carry. If the LEOs harass you again, get a lawyer and sue the pants off them. Last edited on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 01:04 am by Ohio Patriot |
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reefteach Regular Member 
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Welcome to the forum. It is a bummer that your first post is about a negative experience. It sounds like you know that it is legal. are you familiar with the court cases and ORC sections as well? All of that should be included in an OFFICIAL complaint. Last edited on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 01:25 am by reefteach |
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Wynder State Researcher 
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He stated that a local resident called them to say that I was carrying a firearm. Florida v. J.L., 529 U.S. 266 (2000), held that law enforcement cannot stop and frisk a citizen based soley on an anonymous tip describing only innocent behavior and which also does not sufficiently predict the future actions of its subject. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_v._J.L. |
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Citizen Founder's Club Member
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Ohio Patriot wrote: SNIP Yes... continue to open carry. If the LEOs harass you again, get a lawyer and sue the pants off them. Welcome to OCDO! Depending on your circumstances, you could get a lawyer to write a letter to the police chief laying out the law for him. I understand this gets people's attention and lets them know you are for real and are quite serious. Expect to pay for it though. It may work to just make a carefully crafted complaint that lays out the violations of 4th Amendment case law and the incorrect information they gave you (with citations to the actual law). I would recommend that the least you do is make a complaint like this. Well done on getting it recorded. It'll make it hard for the Sergeant to evade an internal inquiry into his conduct. Welcome to 2nd Amendment activism. Some police knuckleheads just showed exactly where your next activism project lies, and where you need to apply pressure. Last edited on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 01:58 am by Citizen |
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rDigital Regular Member
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Thanks for the support. I am going to continue carrying, albeit concealed for the time being. They really got me scared I don't want them doing anything stupid. I have a 100% clean record and I just want to go about my business. Would there be anything to be gained by posting the MP3 that I recorded during the incident? I'd like to get the word out, but I don't want to make trouble. I would have asked for all of their names and badge numbers, but I was too intimidated by the way that I was detained by them to ask for fear that they would try to find something to charge me with if they thought that I would seek legal action against them. All I have is my recording. I will be contacting the Lake County Prosecutor and seeing if I can get an official statement made to the local police departments that what I am doing is perfectly legal and that there is no reason for alarm. Any advice on actions to take on this situation? |
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Citizen Founder's Club Member
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1. We'd be curious to hear the recording; but I think you've covered the bases already. 2. Write the complaint. 3. Talking to the prosecutor might help. I don't have enough experience to judge its usefulness or correctness. |
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rDigital Regular Member
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this is where the mp3 is at. http://ofcc.crufflecarp.org/mp3/2008-06-17_14_45_05-0001.mp3 link location revised with longer complete mp3 Last edited on Mon Jun 30th, 2008 01:32 am by rDigital |
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Wynder State Researcher
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The officer says, "We're not saying you can't... we're saying, why would you?" At this point, it's not longer about the cop enforcing the law and it's all about the cop enforcing his opinion which is NOT HIS JOB. If he wants to enforce his opinion, he should seek office and try to create legislation. |
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Wynder State Researcher
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Oh and with regards to him telling you if you have a concealed license, it means you HAVE to conceal -- apply that to a different scenario. If you have a DRIVERS license, does that then mean you're no longer allowed to walk around the corner? Outside of the officers unlawfully stopping you (with regards to Florida v. J.L), I wish they'd stick to enforcing the law and not their opinion.  Last edited on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 02:44 am by Wynder |
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Lthrnck Regular Member 
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I just listen to the recording.. the cursing done by the one police officer is very unprofessional. |
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Phssthpok Regular Member
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Inducing panic huh? Perhaps you should print out a copy of the relevent Ohio Law to keep handy for your next encounter.  |
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Ohio Patriot Regular Member
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I just listened to it. I am really mad. Tell ya what, let's have an open carry walk in Willowick, OH. We did it in Urbana a couple months ago, and it was a great success: http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?t=18546 Anyone else with me? Lthrnck? I don't care about the cost of gas. This is more important. I'll make the drive. I have a van, so I carpool for anyone living in SW Ohio. Last edited on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 04:04 am by Ohio Patriot |
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reefteach Regular Member
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Man. That is WAY too far for me concidering my family situation. I will, however, paypal some gas money to the driver of a carpool. I can also, as an Ohio resident who values preemption, write to the police department up there, and let them know about ORC 9.68:
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JSK333 Regular Member
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If he uses either his authority as an officer or an unrelated statute to pressure you into not exercercising your constitutional right, then that is a clear color of law issue.http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2921.45 Definitely talk to his superiors. Last edited on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 05:14 am by JSK333 |
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v8shoguy Regular Member
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Ohio Patriot wrote: I just listened to it. I am really mad. Let's go. If my wife can't go, I guess I'll OC 2 pistols.  The only reason to get a permit in Ohio is Vehicle Carry. What will the police say when I stand by my open trunk, load one mag of hollow points, go red, holster, then load 2 more? [url=javascript:emoticon('  ', 'images/emoticons/banana.gif')]document.write('[/url]'); |
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J_5 Regular Member
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WOW, I just listened to the recording (excient job for getting that BTW!) First off, there was really no need for the one "officer" to use the language or talk to you the way he did. You were professional the whole recording, why couldn't he be professional? All the boasting he did about how he taught the class and he doesn’t even understand the law. Was this the sergeant? You should file a complaint, write the police chief, mayor, anyone else you can find. Let them listen to the recording so they know they have a problem. According to the city of Willowick’s website, the Mayor is also the Safety Director. This is totally UNACCEPTIABLE! Stand up for those rights!! Last edited on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 07:59 am by J_5 |
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J_5 Regular Member
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Ohio Patriot wrote: I just listened to it. I am really mad.I would go! |
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eacurtis Regular Member 
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Two things - first, what equipment did you use to get the recording and how did you start it withuout them becomming concerned that you were reaching for something? Second, I didn't see anyone address the "inducing a panic" theory of the cops. Keep in mind that legally doing something (OCing) is never grounds for inducing a panic: ORC 2917.31 - Inducing panic (http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2917.31) states:
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Mike Super Moderator
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rDigital wrote: In Willowick, OH I was walking down the street and was approached from behind by a police cruiser. I was told to put my hands on my head and to get on my knees, for officer safety I would assume. The officer told me that he was stopping me for carrying a weapon. He stated that a local resident called them to say that I was carrying a firearm. Within a few seconds there were 4 other officers on the scene each with their own vehicle. 1 vehicle was unmarked but it was driven by a uniformed officer. I explained to them that I was not doing anything illegal. The sergeant that showed up stated that I was doing something illegal and that I was infact inducing a panic. I have heard before that this is what officers would say about an openly carried weapon in public. I explained to them that this right is guaranteed to me by the Constitution of the United States of America and that the state of Ohio has even greater protections for the right to bear arms and that I am not here to cause a problem. I was just going to get lunch, and would like to do so in peace. They were notified that I have an CCW permit in the state of Ohio. He told me that I have the permit and that I have to carry concealed. One of the officers said, "what do you think people are going to think when they see you carrying that gun on your hip down the street? With all of the things that have been happening in the media. You know how people are." I stated that he was carrying a gun and that didn't seem to alarm people and that most people who encounter me are very friendly and ask questions about OC'ing. To which he responded that he has a badge and a uniform. The conversation ended with basically I am not allowed to OC in Willowick. The sergeant stated that he was not a gun grabber, but that this was just not acceptable to be OC'ing around here. OK, now you have to make a comapoint against the Sergeant for the (1) non-consensual nature of the stop and (2) editorializing against your right to open carry. Just do it. The police bureacracy will then have to consider the issue and figure out what they are going to do about lawful open carry. |
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Citizen Founder's Club Member
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Mike wrote: SNIP (1) non-consensual nature of the stop Gosh, you're being nice about it, Mike. I admire your reserve. I'd be up in arms, using language like, "ILLEGAL SEIZURE OF AN AMERICAN CITIZEN ON THE STREETS OF AMERICA!!" (see Terry vs Ohio for whether a Terry Stop/nonconsensual encounter/detention is a seizure of the person for purposes of the 4th Amendment.) |
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Legba Regular Member
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I have a basic problem with the police preferring (or threatening to prefer) such charges, absent a complaint. -ljp |
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rDigital Regular Member
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I made the recording with an iPhone. I believe that the officer thought I was trying to call someone. I was scared when I saw the cruiser pull up behind me. I have heard the horror storied about people being unfairly treated by LEOs and wanted to make sure people would believe me. Without the recording the encounter it is my word against theirs. With the recording there is no debate. I am deeply offended by the actions taken by the officers of the Willowick police department. If you carry concealed or openly carry a recording device from now on. I used the phone as a last minute idea when the officer pulled up behind me. I will make sure to have it ready for any future encounters. |
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MetalChris Regular Member
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Ohio Patriot wrote: I just listened to it. I am really mad. Dammit, I wish I could do something like that. If I'm off work though my wife's working and I'm watching the kids. Last edited on Thu Jun 19th, 2008 01:36 am by MetalChris |
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jmelvin Founder's Club Member
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rDigital it's good to have you here and good to see Ohioans exercising their right to carry openly. You seem to have a good understanding of the laws and you represented yourself fairly well during your stop. Now it's your turn to use the laws that are their to protect citizens from abuse by the government and ensure that not only your rights, but others rights are not violated by police, who clearly do not have a grasp of Ohio law. Perhaps if there are more and more Ohio police departments that have to pay large sums to understand that open carry is perfectly legal, they'll quit hassling those folk who just want to go about their lives in a peaceable and lawful manner. Good luck in all that you pursue! From a former Ohioan, jmelvin |
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v8shoguy Regular Member
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I listened to the recording last night and had all day to stew on it. What a joke! To paraphrase: LEO 1: "I teach the class and this isn't what we teach" "Who told you this was a good idea?" "Do you want me to call the Sheriff right now and have this revoked, since you're not abiding by the terms of it?" LEO 2: "We're not saying you can't, but why would you?" Anyone else catch the contridiction offered by the two officers? And last, my favorite sound byte of the whole thing: "Well I have a badge and a uniform." So did the city bus driver I saw today in McDonald's!! |
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Ohio Patriot Regular Member
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Here's a more active thread on it: http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?t=20648 As for an open carry walk, I'm all for it. I'm thinking July 5th. Last edited on Thu Jun 19th, 2008 11:12 pm by Ohio Patriot |
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J_5 Regular Member
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Ohio Patriot wrote: Here's a more active thread on it:Glad someone posted this, they are just as fired up as everyone else. Would that be July 5th? |
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reefteach Regular Member
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Ohio Patriot wrote: Here's a more active thread on it: While I can't attend, I was wondering if an informal picnic, like the one done up north, might be more convenient for people: http://www.mlive.com/flintjournal/index.ssf/2008/06/openly_carrying_their_guns_gro.html
At about noon, a group of about six open-carry advocates gathered in a picnic area in the nearly empty park, with just an angler or two across the lake.Seemed effective. |
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Ohio Patriot Regular Member
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J_5 wrote: Ohio Patriot wrote:Here's a more active thread on it:Glad someone posted this, they are just as fired up as everyone else. Yea, July 5th.  But let's put the OC walk on hold for a moment. The mods on the Ohio CCW site are in the process of talking with the Police Chief and Mayor. If Mr. Ledford doesn't receive an apology, or if the offending officer does not undergo training, then an open carry walk will definitely be in the works. So to make a long story short, the OC walk is on "hold" for the moment. |
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longwatch Founder's Club Member 
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Just saw this, sorry it happened, but good on you for your composure in standing up for your rights. |
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jack Banned
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Excellent job bud ! File the complaint the officers are dead wrong on everything everything they said and I really don't think the chief will find their language very professional. He took God's name in vain on a stop of a citizen what 10-25 times ? Complain about that as well. |
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rDigital Regular Member
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Please stay with us on this one. There are a lot of things in motion that have to be kept behind the scenes for right now, but I assure that action is being taken on this subject. Please stay tuned. all info will be first distributed by OFCC ohioccw.org in the forums. |
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Gunslinger Regular Member 
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eacurtis wrote: Two things - first, what equipment did you use to get the recording and how did you start it withuout them becomming concerned that you were reaching for something? If they arrested you, the case would be tossed per (3) above--thanx for the post! Then you can file a suit for malicious prosecution as the cops were overt in their effort to intimidate you for no lawful purpose, this is malice. Haven't listened to the recording yet, but it seems as if it would support your case very strongly. File a complaint with the Mayor and Chief of Police and inform them you will not be subject to intimidation for exercising your rights under the US and OH constitutions. And if you are, you will take appropriate legal action action BOTH of them, the city and the cops in Federal and or state court. |
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Tomahawk Regular Member 
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The link to the mp3 recording appears to be broken. Anybody got a better one? Nevermind, I figured it out. Last edited on Sun Jun 29th, 2008 10:52 pm by Tomahawk |
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Tomahawk Regular Member
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Wow, that one cop telling you "your gonna stay on your knees all goddammed day and argue with me" needs a serious attitude adjustment. Really gets the steam coming out your ears to listen to that. I've got half a mind myself to drive up there and help out, but it's a bit too far. I realize you were trying to be cooperative and all, but as soon as they started cursing and telling you you were breaking some imaginary law, I might have been inclined to stop talking. I see no reason to discuss my job, private life, reason for exercising my rights, or any other personal business with such abusive government officials. Get together with your local grass-roots organization and let them guide you through what steps you need to take next. Good luck, and good job on the recording. |
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UTOC-45-44 Regular Member 
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Tomahawk wrote: The link to the mp3 recording appears to be broken. Anybody got a better one? I didn't figure it out  . Can't listen to it. TJ |
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Tomahawk Regular Member
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Try this: http://ofcc.crufflecarp.org/mp3/2008-06-17_14_45_05-0001.mp3 |
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rDigital Regular Member
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"the best speeches are made on the way home" I know there are things that could have been stated differently, but I was honestly scared to death because of the way that they were acting towards me. I put a lot of time into learning carry laws. As of late, I have been putting time into learning how to use the bill of rights in the U.S. Rest assured that any future encounter ,which I hope to never have, will have much less personal info divulged as well as "am i free to go?" being asked constantly throughout the encounter. Thank you for updating the link I have updated my post as well. http://ofcc.crufflecarp.org/mp3/2008-06-17_14_45_05-0001.mp3 Last edited on Mon Jun 30th, 2008 01:33 am by rDigital |
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UTOC-45-44 Regular Member
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Tomahawk wrote: Try this: Got it. Thanks. You did GREAT. Kept calm and NICE all the way. They were WRONG. And wouldn't this really be under the Color of the Law acting on their part. Write and file a complaint. I went to the West Valley City Council Meeting where the Mayor Presided and in the background the Ass. Chief of Police and the City Manager to share my frustration on how the PD was "lacking" in their behavior towards a MWAG. I was heard "loud and clear". I was backed up by some fellow OCers. It was a GREAT time. TJ |
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longwatch Founder's Club Member
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OFCC Updated with links to FIOAs http://www.ohioccw.org/content/view/4020/83/ |
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