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glockrocker Regular Member 
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I was open carrying on Church Street in Burlington a few days ago. Wasn't really buying anything big, just walking around, killing time, etc. I decided to stop at the kettle corn place that's down towards Borders. Those of you from the area know that it lives up to its "a-maize-ing" name. As I was paying I noticed a female police officer walking towards me, and concerned looking couple not too far away. I thought the worst, but was pleasantly surprised. This woman comes up, and introduces herself as Officer Berti. She says that she received a complaint about me open carrying. I'm about to go on the defensive, explaining the laws, etc, when she says: "I'm sorry to trouble you over nothing, but since I have a complaint I just need to make sure everything's on the up and up." I'm relieved but not quite sure what to think, so I asked "What that would entail?" She says "well, you don't have to do anything, but you'd be doing me a favor if I could see some ID." I'm opposed to presenting ID to LEOs, but with this level of politeness and professionalism I felt no need to be hostile. She takes a few minutes to run it, then hands it back to me and says "I'm sure you knew that was going to come back clean." I said "yeah, if I was going to carry illegally I would conceal." She laughed and we continued to chat for a bit. Since the concerned couple was still staring, probably bewildered that I wasn't in handcuffs yet, I asked if they were the ones who complained. She replied "If they are they aren't being too subtle!" I guess she can't/didn't want to share. We continued to chat about guns for a bit, then we shook hands and went out separate ways. Rock on Vermont!  |
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Liko81 Founder's Club Member 
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glockrocker wrote: I was open carrying on Church Street in Burlington a few days ago. Wasn't really buying anything big, just walking around, killing time, etc. I decided to stop at the kettle corn place that's down towards Borders. Those of you from the area know that it lives up to its "a-maize-ing" name. As I was paying I noticed a female police officer walking towards me, and concerned looking couple not too far away. I thought the worst, but was pleasantly surprised. + . I'm sure SOMEONE here will tell you you shouldn't have handed over ID, since of course that's giving in, but faced with a chance to prove that you are 100%, no question LAC in front of two antis, I would agree with you that it wasn't time to play lawyer.Maybe that's something you could argue for (it's argued against most of the time); when engaged in an LEO encounter, friendly or otherwise, and antis are probably watching, that is probably NOT a good time to play lawyer. Think what they'll think, whether you're arrested or not: * Arrested - "Gee, that didn't get him very far, did it? That's cause OC is wrong just like I said it was when I called 911". * Not Arrested - "A mere technicality; he weaseled his way out of it that time, but he can't dodge forever". If, however, you don't do anything that could be perceived as antagonizing or lawyering (like asserting a point of law when an officer claims otherwise), and the officer does what he does and lets you go, that flies in the face of everything the anti expected. Us OCers are all right-wing, wannabe judge/jury/executioner types, right? Then why aren't we going to jail forever? Why didn't the cop remove the evil bad man from the streets? Why, in fact, was the encounter even friendly? Look, the OCer's looking at us and saying something, and the officer's laughing cordially! What's wrong with this picture?" Well, it's the anti's perception of what SHOULD happen that's wrong. A friendly LEO encounter puts that into glaring perspective, and I think that's what we should aim for when an encounter happens; keep it friendly, even if that means being cooperative when asked to do something you don't have to, until it's clear that the LEO is not going to be friendly regardless of effort on your part. Some here advocate treating every encounter as if you're about to be or have been arrested, and while very effective, I think a friendly encounter is always preferable to an immediate "shields-up approach". Last edited on Mon Jul 28th, 2008 04:28 pm by Liko81 |
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RedKnightt Regular Member 
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glockrocker wrote: <snipped> She says "well, you don't have to do anything, but you'd be doing me a favor if I could see some ID." I'm opposed to presenting ID to LEOs, but with this level of politeness and professionalism I felt no need to be hostile. I think this was a very good LEO encounter. It may be one day that LEOs and dispatchers just start telling those who call in that OC is legal, but it's not prevalent yet. I really liked the part I quoted where she knew that you weren't required to present ID. You really were doing her the favor, and she seemed to realize that. Given the OC stories I've seen out of Vermont and New Hampshire, the couple was probably from Mass or NY.  --RedKnightt-- Zombie Squad has it right: “We hold fast to the belief that if you are prepared for a scenario where the walking corpses of your family and neighbors are trying to eat you alive, you will be prepared for almost anything.” |
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S.E.WI Regular Member
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glockrocker wrote: I was open carrying on Church Street in Burlington a few days ago. Wasn't really buying anything big, just walking around, killing time, etc. I decided to stop at the kettle corn place that's down towards Borders. Those of you from the area know that it lives up to its "a-maize-ing" name. As I was paying I noticed a female police officer walking towards me, and concerned looking couple not too far away. I thought the worst, but was pleasantly surprised. Did you tell us everything.....like did you get her phone number? Just kidding but I would do the same thing you did under the circumstances. This type of encounter will work well for OC and how we are perceived. |
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glockrocker Regular Member
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I was a little worried you guys would be on me for giving ID, glad to see that isn't the case. As you guys said, I think a friendly encounter is always better. S.E. WI, She was pretty cute, and I'm mildly charming, but alas, no phone number . |
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asforme Activist Member
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You needed to ask for a business card so you could compliment her superior on her professionalism... and get her number |
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UTOC-45-44 Regular Member 
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glockrocker wrote: I was open carrying on Church Street in Burlington a few days ago. Wasn't really buying anything big, just walking around, killing time, etc. I decided to stop at the kettle corn place that's down towards Borders. Those of you from the area know that it lives up to its "a-maize-ing" name. As I was paying I noticed a female police officer walking towards me, and concerned looking couple not too far away. I thought the worst, but was pleasantly surprised. I said "yeah, if I was going to carry illegally I would conceal." But I thought that it's LEGAL to CCW as well in Vermont ??? Correct me if I am wrong, Please. Vermont don't have Permit for CCWing, as far as I am aware of TJ |
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PavePusher Regular Member
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glockrocker wrote: I was open carrying on Church Street in Burlington a few days ago. Wasn't really buying anything big, just walking around, killing time, etc. I decided to stop at the kettle corn place that's down towards Borders. Those of you from the area know that it lives up to its "a-maize-ing" name. As I was paying I noticed a female police officer walking towards me, and concerned looking couple not too far away. I thought the worst, but was pleasantly surprised. Actually, since CC is legal in VT as well, you couldn't get in trouble if you tried!  Well, unless you're a felon of course...  |
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UTOC-45-44 Regular Member
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PavePusher wrote: glockrocker wrote:I was open carrying on Church Street in Burlington a few days ago. Wasn't really buying anything big, just walking around, killing time, etc. I decided to stop at the kettle corn place that's down towards Borders. Those of you from the area know that it lives up to its "a-maize-ing" name. As I was paying I noticed a female police officer walking towards me, and concerned looking couple not too far away. I thought the worst, but was pleasantly surprised. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry_in_the_United_States "Two states, Vermont[5] and Alaska,[6] allow a non-felon, aged 16 or 21 respectively, to carry without requiring a permit as a fundamental right. Alaskan residents may optionally obtain a permit granting reciprocal carry privileges in certain other states, or to be exempted from the NICS background check. Vermont extends the right to carry without requiring a permit to non-residents as well as to residents, but issues no permits to residents that could function to allow reciprocal concealed carry rights for Vermont residents while in other states" Last edited on Tue Jul 29th, 2008 02:00 am by UTOC-45-44 |
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glockrocker Regular Member
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You guys are absolutely right about not needing a permit. I meant if it was illegal for me to carry at all (felon, etc.), I would conceal. |
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UTOC-45-44 Regular Member
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glockrocker wrote: You guys are absolutely right about not needing a permit. I meant if it was illegal for me to carry at all (felon, etc.), I would conceal. Oh, I see what you mean. TJ |
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CrossBow33 Regular Member 
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The encounter was particularly noteworthy because Church Street is, in fact, a pedestrian mall, known for an "eclectic" clientele. And as friendly as Vermont is to RKBA, Burlington, home to U of VT and several other colleges as well as a growing population of neer do wells from adjoining states, is not. |
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deepdiver Activist Member 
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+1 for the handling of the encounter on both sides. I too would have offered ID in that situation. She had already acknowledged your rights and the law that you did not have to anything. I would have no objection to be on the OCer end of such a reasonable encounter. |
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vermonter Regular Member 
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Vermont is one of the states where an officer has the right to ask for ID whn answering a complaint. They are only trying to determine that you are not a felon in possesion of a firearm (our form of criminal control). Give em the ID if you are questioned while OC, and if you are clean you're on your way. Any time I am stopped I inform that I am carrying concealed. It is never an issue. They run me and I'm on my way. I am sure some of you in Wyoming cringe, but remember here in Burlington we are being overrun with hard core gang bangers from NYC, MA and Peoples Republic of NJ. This only applies to Burlington. I have never had an issue anywhere else in VT with any PD. Burlington PD is a bunch of good guys and gals who do not harass unduely compared to other states. Give em some respect and you will get the same in return. I have an update about Church Street. The bricked part is public, but entering any business while OC can get you trespassed from all. I got a warning form for a headlight out. The same form is also for trespass warnings. It lists every business and all bars. If you are trespassed from one you are trespassed from ALL! Keep OC out of all business on Church St includiing Burlington Mall and you will be saved a trespass that could last up to a year. |
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centercity Regular Member
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Vermont is one of the states where an officer has the right to ask for ID whn answering a complaint. Do you have a cite for this? It's not that I don't believe you. It's just that I've been trying to figure that out for a while, and would be interested to see the wording. Thanks. |
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centercity Regular Member
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I'm glad to hear you had a good experience with the Burlington Police Department. I've been meaning to ask them about their training and policies regarding citizens carrying weapons, but haven't gotten around to it. It sounds like they are doing just fine. |
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cato Regular Member 
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what did she look like and what was she carrying  |
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buketdude Regular Member 
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I love VT...i will be there again this weekend..open carrying in the Rutland area!!...i love touring the breweries and camping/hiking...great place..great people.. |
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Alwayspacking Activist Member 
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now thats what I'm talking about... she did not take you to be a criminal just because you had a gun. if she happen to be read this post, i want to say thank you for the way you responded to this 911 call. |
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vermonter Regular Member
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Center city, I will try to scan in the back of a "traffic violation warning" that also contains the trespass warning. You will find it most interesting. I certainly don't want to be trespassed from all the business on Church St, so I just CCW. As stated in another post by the chief of security OC at the U Mall WILL get you a trespass notice. Read this: http://www.police.ci.burlington.vt.us/News%20Releases%20&%20Docs/Tag%20Game%20Press%20Release%204-4-2008.pdf Notice it states "stores and business" not the bricked part, but I don't want to push my luck. If officer LaBarge or Clark sees you OC you will probably get a rash of $%^#&^! I know Officer Berti and she is real professional and nice. |
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PT111 Regular Member 
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She says "well, you don't have to do anything, but you'd be doing me a favor if I could see some ID." I think it was a good encounter. If you had refused to provide ID and started declaring your rights which many would, the next time this LEO gets a call about MWAG would she approach the person with the same attitude. If she even sees someone with a gun would she have the same attitude or will it be different? I think your actions presented a positive image all around for everyone involved and the couple that reported it now have at least see one person carrying a gun that isn't psycho and running around protesting. This image can easily be destroyed but the more people see that there is no problem and nothing to be alarmed about the better it is. |
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vermonter Regular Member
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I agree with PT111. I can hear the flames coming from the "Virginia Bunch", but I understand why. I have traveled extensively and I see the powder blue cars in VA on the interstate harassing EVERYONE. Here in VT we have no issues with LEO's. If they want to see ID, fine. They are not trying to harass you here like in other states. We have the most laid back police in the country. Similar to the west in many ways. Except for officer's Labarge and Clark in Burlington..... but all they do is write to many tickets!  |
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vermonter Regular Member
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Duplicate... Sorry Last edited on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 07:11 am by vermonter |
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bobcat Regular Member
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Sounds like a good encounter. While I would probably not hand over an ID, each of us has to do what we believe is the right thing to do in each circumstance. I am not second guessing you, glockrocker as it was you on the spot and not me. Great to hear about LEO's that understand the laws and are professional. One question about the MWAG calls and the complainants. I have yet to notice any discussion about LEO's discussing the laws with the complainants. In other words, don't be making MWAG calls for someone unless they are threatening with a firearm, brandishing or other such foolishness. In general, if the firearms stays in the holster, and there is no unwarranted threat of use, there is no problem... Seems to me, the ill informed and at worst anti's could just look for ways to harrass OC'ers and just skate away without so much as a contact by LEO's for an unwarranted report or even 'false reporting', which can get a citation by itself. Seems like the next logical step (educationally speaking) is to ask the responding LEO to discuss OC with the complainant and return with comments to the 'aggrieved'? This should be working both ways... Comments? Actual experiences? |
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ProtectedBy9mm Regular Member 
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VT sounds badass. |
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Dustin Regular Member 
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If you were both single, I'd be looking for her again A Pro OC, LEO for a Girlfriend/Wife, Sounds testy Last edited on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 10:12 pm by Dustin |
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Jared Regular Member 
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vermonter wrote: I agree with PT111. I can hear the flames coming from the "Virginia Bunch", but I understand why. I have traveled extensively and I see the powder blue cars in VA on the interstate harassing EVERYONE. Here in VT we have no issues with LEO's. If they want to see ID, fine. They are not trying to harass you here like in other states. We have the most laid back police in the country. Similar to the west in many ways. Except for officer's Labarge and Clark in Burlington..... but all they do is write to many tickets! Not true, Vermont has a lot of hacks. My father received a speeding ticket a couple of years ago for an accused speed that he was not doing. In 2000, now retired Fish and Game Warden Jim Patch who worked in Windsor County tried to confiscate fireworks we had for the 4th of July because we didn't have a federal "pyrotechnics" permit. He was wrong on the law.... but I'm not suprised. All we had to do was get approval from the local fire chief, which we did. The constible ended up taking the fireworks and after the hack left, he brought them back to us and we lit them off. Oh yeah, the game warden use to be the biggest poacher before he was hired on. Sorry, but VT has a lot of hacks, my parents love it in VT, but I can't stand the place. My motto for the state is... "Vermont... the state where nothing is legal except for carrying a knife or pistol." As far as open carry in Vermont.... I never had a problem so I give them points for that. |
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ProtectedBy9mm Regular Member
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Jared wrote: vermonter wrote:I agree with PT111. I can hear the flames coming from the "Virginia Bunch", but I understand why. I have traveled extensively and I see the powder blue cars in VA on the interstate harassing EVERYONE. Here in VT we have no issues with LEO's. If they want to see ID, fine. They are not trying to harass you here like in other states. We have the most laid back police in the country. Similar to the west in many ways. Except for officer's Labarge and Clark in Burlington..... but all they do is write to many tickets! Lol Attached Image (viewed 483 times): |
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modificationvt Regular Member 
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sounds like a good encounter, I would have handed over my ID as well. after all what damage could be done by handing it over, and what good could come from refusing to hand it over. I have had a couple run ins with burlington LEO and some have been good, some not so good. (the one gun related runin was good) it is usualy clear from how they approch you how the encounter is going to go. |
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Venator Regular Member 
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glockrocker wrote: I was open carrying on Church Street in Burlington a few days ago. Wasn't really buying anything big, just walking around, killing time, etc. I decided to stop at the kettle corn place that's down towards Borders. Those of you from the area know that it lives up to its "a-maize-ing" name. As I was paying I noticed a female police officer walking towards me, and concerned looking couple not too far away. I thought the worst, but was pleasantly surprised. She just manipulated you into giving up your right. She should go far in the department especially in PR. I bet she gets lots of free drinks at bars from guys like you. But okay she was cute. |
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langloisandy Regular Member
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Jared, Sorry to burst your bubble BUT... re: Fireworks: They are illegal in Vermont, period and can get you a cite into court. (or arrest if you meet the criteria) If you have a License for commercial fireworks, you must have the Fire Chiefs permission. http://www.leg.state.vt.us/statutes/fullsection.cfm?Title=20&Chapter=177&Section=03131 http://www.leg.state.vt.us/statutes/fullsection.cfm?Title=20&Chapter=177&Section=03132 http://www.leg.state.vt.us/statutes/fullsection.cfm?Title=20&Chapter=177&Section=03135 Andy |
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ixtow Founder's Club Member
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This is interesting... People give me crap for posting in other state's threads, but I like presenting myself with hypotheticals, like; "what if I was approached by a police officer who was not a complete piece of crap." How about this; why not invite the belligerent pricks who 'reported' you over to join the discussion? ID, hrm, I'd have a hard time with that one. But as you said, this officer made it clear that you didn't have to. I would have probably done something similar to what you did, but made a point to say "I'm only doing this because you recognize the fact that I don't have to." I don't have a problem with 'showing my papers,' so long as it isn't an order. Given the opportunity to VOLUNTEER to prove my innocence, I wouldn't have a problem thumbing my nose at the degenerate complainers. I'd have to ask the filth that called 911 to please stop wasting my tax money with their crusades... |
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Venator Regular Member
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glockrocker wrote: I was a little worried you guys would be on me for giving ID, glad to see that isn't the case. As you guys said, I think a friendly encounter is always better. I'll give you crap for giving ID. Don't do it. It just reinforces the police that they will get what they want. Whether it's a 250 lbs ugly LEO who demands your ID or it's a 115 lbs cutey who ask so coyly, if you comply the result is the same, the continued erosion of our personal rights and freedoms. |
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ixtow Founder's Club Member
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Venator wrote: glockrocker wrote:I was a little worried you guys would be on me for giving ID, glad to see that isn't the case. As you guys said, I think a friendly encounter is always better. I'm not sure the coy cutie is what really matters here. Which helps educate (or irritate) the onlooking douche bags more? Which helps the PR of Open Carry more? I'm a JBT hating Mo Fo to the core. But, according to the OP, this Officer specifically stated "you don't have to" I would be happy to hold my ground in the face of a dirtbag cop who 'demands' I do something I don't have to. But one who acknowledges, up front, that it would just be 'helpful' (how, exactly? BS, or course), but NOT required... This officer at least acknowledges where the line is and was asking, not insisting. That is a win, in my book. With onlooking douche bags... I would do just as the OP so that the onlookers see nothing but smiles and cordiality. The onlookers clearly have no idea what rights exist and do not; make it all pretty and disappoint them. I would have liked to see what happened if the OP had, instead, said; 'We both know I don't have to, what favor are you gonna do for me in return for surrendering my rights?' I sometimes wonder how differently my own path in Law Enforcement would have gone, if I hadn't tried to start it in FL... |
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Jared Regular Member
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You didn't burst my bubble.... Because we had permission from the local government. The Moron tried telling us we needed a state pyrotechnics permit.... Which you do not. |
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NavyLT Regular Member
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glockrocker wrote: "I'm sorry to trouble you over nothing, but since I have a complaint I just need to make sure everything's on the up and up." I'm relieved but not quite sure what to think, so I asked "What that would entail?" She says "well, you don't have to do anything, but you'd be doing me a favor if I could see some ID." I might have asked her to do me a favor and speak to the complainers and explain to them the laws regarding firearms carry. That's what I don't understand is why the cops always come to us, vice going to the complainer. |
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unarmed in westchester Regular Member 
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Venator...I understand why you're busting chops for showing ID, but...it was my understanding that is how it works in Vt. You can carry open or cc'd, as long as you are a legal US citizen and not carrying with the intention of commiting a crime. There are no permits. But LEO's can ask for ID to ensure that you are indeed a legal US citizen and not a wanted person? Please, correct me if i am wrong. |
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ixtow Founder's Club Member
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unarmed in westchester wrote: Venator...I understand why you're busting chops for showing ID, but...it was my understanding that is how it works in Vt. You can carry open or cc'd, as long as you are a legal US citizen and not carrying with the intention of commiting a crime. There are no permits. But LEO's can ask for ID to ensure that you are indeed a legal US citizen and not a wanted person? Please, correct me if i am wrong. They would have to have probable cause to conduct a search or seizure of your person or property for any of those 'checks.' Without probable cause, it's nothing more than 'papers please.' |
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NavyLT Regular Member
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unarmed in westchester wrote: Venator...I understand why you're busting chops for showing ID, but...it was my understanding that is how it works in Vt. You can carry open or cc'd, as long as you are a legal US citizen and not carrying with the intention of commiting a crime. There are no permits. But LEO's can ask for ID to ensure that you are indeed a legal US citizen and not a wanted person? Please, correct me if i am wrong. Did she have any reason to think that you were prohibited? That's the simple answer to your question. If the answer is, "No she did not have any reason to think I am prohibited" then it is against the 4th amendment for her to demand to see ID. |
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ixtow Founder's Club Member
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NavyLT wrote: unarmed in westchester wrote:Venator...I understand why you're busting chops for showing ID, but...it was my understanding that is how it works in Vt. You can carry open or cc'd, as long as you are a legal US citizen and not carrying with the intention of commiting a crime. There are no permits. But LEO's can ask for ID to ensure that you are indeed a legal US citizen and not a wanted person? Please, correct me if i am wrong. I think the key difference here is that ID was not demanded. It was requested. The OP chose to show ID. And while I am pretty hardcore about never doing that... I think that in this circumstance it was more helpful to choose such than not to. Do we know what might have happened if he refused? No, we don't. But from the OP's description of the Officer's Demeanor and choice of words, I feel comfortable saying that this Officer would probably not have crossed the line. Quite probably she may have become less chatty, but oh well. And I'm about that last person who would ever give an Officer credit... I'm not a mind reader, it's just speculation. But it is quite difficult to about-face with that particular choice of words. I'm doubting that 'running your ID' was something she even wanted to do. Just wanted to make a show for the onlooking goons, and create an 'affirmative' with dispatch. It's all about office politics, no? Consider the image of the department which refuses? I don't think Brass has the interest or guts to tell 'the concerned public' that there is no reason to bother with this... It suits their disarmament/we are superman agenda too... Maybe she just wanted to keep her job? Consider that even those officers that respect 'us' are probably being watched, and have to make it look like they are with the higher-up's program if they don't want to be overlooked for the next promotion, etc... Anti's are NEVER above abusing their position and inflicting prejudice upon anyone they can. If I were such a responding officer, being very much in support of OC, I'd still say "Crap, not this... How do I get through this and still look good in the eyes of my freedom-hating boss..." I'd probably want to 'run an ID' just to show that I was out here being the good little JBT my boss expected....... What about you? Last edited on Thu Jul 30th, 2009 02:01 am by ixtow |
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Gunslinger Regular Member 
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As the cop was especially polite, I don't see the harm. She knew you had no legal responsibility to present ID and said so. The M@#$%s, undoubtedly, should stay in the PDR if they don't like guns. |
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vermonter Regular Member
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I like posts like this one "I would be happy to hold my ground in the face of a dirtbag cop who 'demands' I do something I don't have to.". I think that is a funny statement from someone who lives in Florida of all places! You can talk all brave on here, but you know if a Florida cop even gets a hint of sarcasm you will be in for a WORLD of hurt. Remember the black police commander from Miami who was stopped by OCSD? They did a JOB on him for voicing his opinion. If he was a civilian he would have been beaten badly and had mulitple felony charges. I know I used to live in Florida (yeah it is a REAL cesspool). Here in VT we have noting to prove with the cops. I know many of them and they just want to make sure you are not a prohibited person. I hand them my ID when asked and it is ALWAYS a pleasant encounter here in the Green Mtn State. Most people have no clue about how the Vermont police handle things. Petty crimes like shoplifting, simple assault (a fight that has ended with no serious injuries) end up with a summons and the person walking away (not in handcuffs. In states like Florida citizens are used to cuffs being put on eight year olds for fighting on the playground! Vermont cops (for the most part) treat citizens with respect and I return the same by showing my non-res CCW if asked for ID. |
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Glock34 Campaign Veteran 
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How was the first date ? was it dinner and a movie ? I wish Wisconsin cops were that cool. |
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ixtow Founder's Club Member
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vermonter wrote: I like posts like this one "I would be happy to hold my ground in the face of a dirtbag cop who 'demands' I do something I don't have to.". I think that is a funny statement from someone who lives in Florida of all places! You can talk all brave on here, but you know if a Florida cop even gets a hint of sarcasm Aw, that's cute. |
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