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Saint Regular Member 
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I was assaulted tonight with two friends at Tablerock. Police arrested the suspect. Details will come tomorrow when I calm down enough to write. |
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Saint Regular Member
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Tonight, myself and two of my friends (one guy, one girl) were relaxing at my house and came upon the idea to go up to Table Rock and look at the skyscape of Boise. At approx. 11:30 we got in my car and proceeded to drive up Table Rock road. As we approached the summit, we passed a brown Ford F150 that was attempting to drive up the side of the hill. We passed by and continued driving up the hill to the summit where I parked my car and myself and my two friends exited the vehicle. My friends went to walk closer to the cross and I walked back to move my car closer so we could turn on some music. I pulled my car closer to the cross and as I turned it off the F150 pulled up alongside me and motioned me to roll down my window. I complied and asked if I could help the guy inside. It was immediately apparent that he was intoxicated and he began to verbally threaten me with such statements as "You talking @#$% about me?" and "You want a problem?" I attempted to defuse the situation by assuring him that I did not want a problem and that I was unsure of what he was talking about. At this point he turned into his truck, reached onto the seat and retrieved a handgun which he then pointed at me and threatened me again. I instantly went into Condition Red and opened my drivers door to exit my car. I then stepped out of my car while placing myself in a ready position (weaver stance, car between the two of us, hand on side arm ready to draw.) He also got out of his vehicle and started moving towards me while gesturing with his gun. My two friends noticed the disturbance and came over to see what was going on. As they approached he pointed the gun at both of them and told my male friend to "stay the @#$% back" I continued to talk to him and defuse the situation. He moved closer to me while my female friend went to a safe position behind the car and my male friend moved behind him. After about 40 seconds I convinced him to lower his firearm. At this point he tucked the gun behind his back in the waistband of his pants and began talking to the girl I was with. I moved slightly behind him so I could take his weapon and positioned myself accordingly. He then began to get aggravated again at which point I drew my sidearm (Glock 19 in IWB holster) placed my hand over his gun and informed him that I was armed and was going to remove his gun. He innitialy resisted but upon realizing that I had a firearm he relented and allowed me to remove his firearm. I then handed it to the girl I was with (who is current National Guard) and instructed her to clear the weapon. As she attempted to do so she discovered that the gun was a BB gun and not a real weapon. I then instructed the man to get in his truck and leave. He returned to his truck after a couple mins of dialouge and began to drive away. At this point I pulled out my phone and called 911 and explained that I had just had a gun pulled on me and that I had a weapon on me as well. My guy friend went to take possesion of the BB gun while my girl friend went to tell some of the other people up at Table Rock what was going on. At this point the man turned his truck around and drove back to where I was while I was on the phone with the 911 dispatch. He began yelling at me and telling me to give his gun back and then got out of his vehicle and approached me. My male friend and two other guys came up and stood next to me as we attempted to convince him to leave. After approx. 6 mins of discussion he got back in his truck and I believed that he was leaving. Instead, he pulled farther forwards towards a group of people standing next to the cross and continued to yell at us from the truck. He then said he was going to drive off the cliff and sped towards the edge before braking approx 3 feet away. He then repeated the procedure several times, gunning the engine loudly. I called 911 again and informed the dispatcher of the change in situation while maintaining my perimeter and keeping everyone away from him. The suspect then parked his car alongside the cliff and got out where he opened the hood of his truck and began tinkering with it. Within 30 seconds of this, three squad cars pulled up. BPD quickly took ahold the situation and handcuffed the suspect. They then brought all the witnesses together, removed my firearm from me and patted us down quickly. Everything else was fairly routine. Myself and my two friends were interviewed extensively and wrote out witness reports. The police also obtained reports from at least 6 other people. About 45 mins after the police showed up the officers returned my firearm to my car and asked me not to re-arm myself until I was ready to leave. I finished my witness statement, thanked the officers and went to calm down. My friends and I left a few mins later with an entirely new perspective on violent crime. Both my friends are now very interested in getting more firearms training and aquiring their CWP's. I am very glad that the confrontation ended without anyone getting hurt and that I made it home tonight safe. |
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Ohio Patriot Regular Member
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You showed a lot more restraint than I would have. Saint wrote: He also got out of his vehicle and started moving towards me while gesturing with his gun. Sorry, but at this point I would have taken cover and shot him. I mean, I’m glad everything worked out O.K. But if someone pointed a gun at me while in their car, and then proceeded to get out of their car w/ gun in hand, I would have popped them as soon as they exited their car. |
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BrianEMT Regular Member 
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Wow...and to say this kind of thing doesn't happen around here...especially to one of our own! You should join BoiseShooters and I at pizza tomorrow (Thursday) at 6:30PM at the Idaho Pizza Company on Fairview, east of Cole, northside of the street. They would be interested in hearing your story too... |
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IndianaBoy79 Regular Member 
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Wow Saint, I agree, amazing restraint. I probably would be in counseling right now trying to deal with the fact I just took a human life. With the information we have in hindsight, I'm glad no one was injured including the perp. Glad you were able to handle yourself calmly and protect those in your care. |
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ChinChin Regular Member 
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Ohio Patriot wrote: You showed a lot more restraint than I would have. Gotta go with Ohio on this one. Rummy already proved he was the primary aggressor by driving up and running his mouth, once he stepped out of the cab with a gun in hand, you needed to end him then and there. No debates. There is no doubt in my mind had that gun not been a airsoft toy, you'd be dead now. |
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Hubby_MC Regular Member
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Great job, good judgement, you obvioulsy took the "totality of the circumstances" into account! Glad it all worked out Last edited on Thu Aug 21st, 2008 05:20 pm by Hubby_MC |
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Hubby_MC Regular Member
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I just got the skinny on last nights incident! nothing but praise for your actions! Arrested: Damon G Smith of Boise, Male, 37 years old of Boise Charges: Aggravated Assault (Felony) DUI with previous convictions (Felony) Resisting and Obstructing Officers (Misdemeanor) Here is a wonderful photo for his scrapbook too!! http://www.adasheriff.org/InmateRoster/wfrmRosterDetail.aspx Good job! Look for an article to appear on the statesman in a couple hours! |
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Carolina40 Regular Member
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Hindsight is always 20/20, but suppose it was not a BB gun and suppose he did pull the trigger on you? Your family would be in mourning. Did you freeze when he pointed it at you? (I've never been in this situation and hope to never be...) During my concealed carry class - the most common phrase I heard was: "grave and imminent danger..." A drunk pointing a weapon at me satisfies that criteria. Glad you are OK. |
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vrwmiller Regular Member 
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BPD quickly took ahold the situation and handcuffed the suspect. They then brought all the witnesses together, removed my firearm from me and patted us down quickly. Don't the bolded statements above just seem out of place slightly? I think more information on those two items is crucial. What did they do with the firearm while they had it in their posession for 45 minutes? Was it necessary to remove it? Was it an illegal seizure of property? Without more information, it just seems fishy. Of course, the PD knowing it was a volatile situation could have easily been justified in securing it for personal and public safety. At any rate, glad that noone got hurt. Great job in difusing the situation and keeping your cool. |
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Hubby_MC Regular Member
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Here is the News Release!!! http://www.cityofboise.org/Departments/Police/NewsReleases/2008/page32112.aspx |
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Hubby_MC Regular Member
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And here is the article in the Statesman http://www.idahostatesman.com/newsupdates/story/477720.html and now here it is on KTVB.com http://www.ktvb.com/news/localnews/stories/ktvbn-aug2108-guns.1c4bb4be.html Last edited on Thu Aug 21st, 2008 05:38 pm by Hubby_MC |
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Domandred Regular Member
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Hate to say it but I would have drawn and shot soon as his attention was off me and onto my friends. You had no idea the gun was fake and he was obviously a problem. Guy is lucky he is still alive. Last edited on Thu Aug 21st, 2008 06:15 pm by Domandred |
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Dirty_Dinkums Regular Member
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Glad it worked out ok. |
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Saint Regular Member
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Guy is indeed lucky to be alive. So everyone knows, my decision not to shoot was based on my assessment of the situation at the time. The fact that he had drawn a gun and mine was still in it's holster, the need to exit my vehicle and move into a better position, his intoxication level and the fact that their were no less than 8 other people in the surrounding area put me in a mindset of waiting to obtain the upper hand. Although I would have been justified in drawing and firing as soon as I saw the gun, I was unsure of what my backdrop was and how many other people might be in the potential line of fire. I also realized that given his intoxication level any threatening gestures might push him over the edge and give him a reason to shoot before I would be able to draw. Thus I opted to attempt to subdue the situation and bring him into a better position where I could remove his firearm and allow myself access to my weapon. Dangerous? Potentially. But I viewed the alternative of firing shots as too great a risk at that point. That being said, I have learned several things from the encounter and would probably react differently in similar circumstances. I am just happy that everyone made it home safe and can live another day. He is currently facing criminal charges and I will be talking with my lawyer to determine if civil charges are warranted as well. Last edited on Thu Aug 21st, 2008 08:51 pm by Saint |
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Saint Regular Member
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Carolina40 wrote: Hindsight is always 20/20, but suppose it was not a BB gun and suppose he did pull the trigger on you?I did not freeze when he drew the weapon. I instantly went to condition red, stepped out of my vehicle and reached for my weapon while moving away from the suspect. |
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Carolina40 Regular Member
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can you tell us what it was that made you decide to not shoot? |
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Saint Regular Member
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Carolina40 wrote: can you tell us what it was that made you decide to not shoot?2 posts above I explain |
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Tyoung Regular Member 
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Glad things worked the way they did. On the flip side why would you ever get close enough to disarm him. That puts you way to close to him. Hold him at gun point get in you car and leave. That's also why I carry pepper spray. As soon as he put his gun in his pants, spray his ass and leave. |
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Saint Regular Member
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I got off the phone just a little while ago with Patrick Orr of the Idaho Stateman. I have also given my contact info to KTVB and expect them to get in touch with me either later today or early tomorrow. |
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BrianEMT Regular Member
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The articles are an interesting read... Is it just me or do I get this Neo-Nazi vibe from him? |
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Hiredgun30 Regular Member 
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hey saint, good job on handling yourself... glock 19...450 dollars cwl ...75 dollars the look on the dumbDrunk Felons face when you presented your glock... PRICELESS..... |
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563 Regular Member 
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Wow! Glad you and your friends are Ok Saint. stuff like this always happens when you least expect it. |
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vinnie Regular Member
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"the bad guys are in jail and no one got hurt. I call that a good day" The Flash I wouldn't dare try to second guess a good result. Good ..no GREAT JOB. |
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Hiredgun30 Regular Member
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my only complaint saint.. is that it costs idaho residents 53.oo a day to house dumb idiots like him... he has a long criminal history.. go to http://www.idcourts.us and under name search ( damon G. smith ) there was only one in the whole state of idaho. Last edited on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 12:28 am by Hiredgun30 |
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tarzan1888 Regular Member 
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Saint, I am glad it all worked out. I probably would have shot him. Tarzan |
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563 Regular Member
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Hiredgun30 wrote: my only complaint saint.. is that it costs idaho residents 53.oo a day to house Saint took the High Road and I commend him for that, I feel most of us would've shot the perp on sight. |
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bourneshooter Regular Member 
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Saint, give me a call tonight. Kudos on handling yourself in this situation. |
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Hiredgun30 Regular Member
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i'm just being sarcastic as usual.... I agree he did excellent. |
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longwatch Founder's Club Member 
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Good job, like it was said above, no one was hurt and the bad guy is in jail, equals a good outcome. |
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longwatch Founder's Club Member
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PWN3D Attached Image (viewed 657 times): |
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Citizen Founder's Club Member
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Well done, Saint! |
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Eagleeye Regular Member 
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BrianEMT wrote: The articles are an interesting read... +1 & Well Done Saint! *2 Thumbs Up*  |
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563 Regular Member
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Quick question Saint, did you have your voice recorder with you? if so, did you capture it? just wondering. |
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BrianEMT Regular Member
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563 wrote: Quick question Saint, did you have your voice recorder with you? if so, did you capture it? just wondering. Yes: Hold on hold on...can you put that gun back down real quick I want to record what you are saying...oh wait...you are drunk and want to shoot me? Oh ok nevermind.  Last edited on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 05:51 am by BrianEMT |
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ironshields Regular Member 
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IndianaBoy79 wroteI probably would be in counseling right now trying to deal with the fact I just took a human life.dude. counseling. I would not have a second thought about inserting the proper amount of hot led into the wack-job to defuse the situation. |
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ironshields Regular Member
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no kidding. you should have used the 25 cent round in your chamber and saved the tax payers some money. besides it would have been good ballistics testing |
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ironshields Regular Member
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way to keep your cool out there saint. just one thing though. why did you let him get back in the truck. I would have told him to sit is @$$ down until the BPD showed up. im glad to hear you are all safe. this is why you need to go to frontsight. the guy wouldn't have had time to crap himself before he dropped like a sack of potatoes. |
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ChinChin Regular Member
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ironshields wrote: way to keep your cool out there saint. just one thing though. why did you let him get back in the truck. I would have told him to sit is @$$ down until the BPD showed up. im glad to hear you are all safe. Not to hijack the thread. . .Isn't Front Site the outfit run by the Scientologist? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatius_Piazza |
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ironshields Regular Member
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ChinChin wrote: ironshields wrote:yes it is. well he pretty much believes in everything. to Piazza, religion is more of an insurance policy than anything. but that doesn't mean that he can't create one of the greatest firearm training courses known to man. I took the entry level 4 day defensive handgun course. you can check out the web-sight at Frontsight.com. his mission in the gun community is one we sould all adhear to.way to keep your cool out there saint. just one thing though. why did you let him get back in the truck. I would have told him to sit is @$$ down until the BPD showed up. im glad to hear you are all safe. ps. by the end of the class my friend outshot an Army special opps guy who is supposedly one of the better marksmen in the North-west. |
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GreenDrake Regular Member 
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Good to go Saint, glad you had the composure the spare a life, taking one is not something anyone wants to have to do. and Hiredgun, you are fired. That site is absolutely hilarious, I have been searching co-workers, friends, etc. and know a lot more about their past thanks to that. I even check up on neighbors with that now. Woudathunkit. |
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Agent19 Regular Member 
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Glad you are Okay. Good Job!!! |
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bourneshooter Regular Member
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http://waronguns.blogspot.com/2008/08/dgu-at-table-rock.html#links |
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Gunslinger Regular Member 
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When you have seconds to live, the cops are minutes away. Glad it worked out. Probably, I would have shot him when he pointed the gun at my friends. |
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Drgong Regular Member
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Saint, you are a saint in dealing with it how you did. Good job! |
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Hubby_MC Regular Member
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I have the video clips from the tv stations on a .wmv file compressed to around 5.7mb if anyone wants them emailed or have a place to upload them to let me know. saint, I have a couple copies on DVD for you! |
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Saint Regular Member
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Thanks for the support everyone. I appreciate all the compliments and criticisms. I would caution anyone here though about saying that they would have dumped lead into the guy. Frankly, you don't know what you are going to do until you get in the situation regardless of how you practice. I made the decision I did that night based on my understanding of the situation at the time and my belief that my gun is a last resort. I am fortunate in that it worked out and everyone lived. That being said, I have reviewed the situation and the next time something like that happens to me, I will be shooting first and asking my questions later. The good news of this one is that the BG is behind bars and no one got hurt |
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ChinChin Regular Member
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ironshields wrote: ChinChin wrote:Didn't mean to question any belief policies. . .it was more a point of clarifacation. Thanks for the info.ironshields wrote:yes it is. well he pretty much believes in everything. to Piazza, religion is more of an insurance policy than anything. but that doesn't mean that he can't create one of the greatest firearm training courses known to man. I took the entry level 4 day defensive handgun course. you can check out the web-sight at Frontsight.com. his mission in the gun community is one we sould all adhear to.way to keep your cool out there saint. just one thing though. why did you let him get back in the truck. I would have told him to sit is @$$ down until the BPD showed up. im glad to hear you are all safe. |
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563 Regular Member
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Hubby_MC wrote: I have the video clips from the tv stations on a .wmv file compressed to around 5.7mb if anyone wants them emailed or have a place to upload them to let me know.Hubby MC, create an account at youtube.com and upload for all to enjoy |
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IndianaBoy79 Regular Member
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ironshields wrote: IndianaBoy79 wroteI probably would be in counseling right now trying to deal with the fact I just took a human life.dude. counseling. I would not have a second thought about inserting the proper amount of hot led into the wack-job to defuse the situation. It's one thing to say how easy it would be to follow your training and shoot a human, but it's a whole different sack of potatoes when it comes to actually doing it. I'm saying I would hope to have followed my training and shot in that situation, but even knowing I did the right thing, I believe there would be some emotional consequences for doing so. |
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Saint Regular Member
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IndianaBoy79 wrote: ironshields wrote:If you don't have a second thought about taking a human life, that is very dangerous. I made my choices for specific reasons. I took a risk that had big payoffs (not shooting and everyone gets to live) and it worked. I was prepared to pull the trigger as soon as I believed I was in a good position and able to accurately take him down. By that point I had taken control of the situation enough where killing him was no longer necessary.IndianaBoy79 wroteI probably would be in counseling right now trying to deal with the fact I just took a human life.dude. counseling. I would not have a second thought about inserting the proper amount of hot led into the wack-job to defuse the situation. |
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Hubby_MC Regular Member
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Like I mentioned, in police, and military training, they always emphasized....... take into account the "totallity of the circumstances" No ammount of training can give you a black and white answer to the shoot, dont shoot question simply because there is no way to predict every possible situation or outcome. Training provides us all with guidelines that can help your decision making process but it cannot make the decision for you. When I first attended training along these lines as a young man I actually thought there would be some magic book that said...... in this case....... do this..... in this case..... do that. Unfortunately it just doesnt exist. That at first was very disheartening. Eventually you see why and learn to accept it. Personally, I think you did a fantastic job. The people I know agree with that decision. I am not saying it was the only answer, or the only "legal" solution but I am commending your thought process. Kudos!!!!!!!  |
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American Rattlesnake Regular Member 
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Saint "I made the decision I did that night based on my understanding of the situation at the time and my belief that my gun is a last resort. I am fortunate in that it worked out and everyone lived." "If you don't have a second thought about taking a human life, that is very dangerous." "By that point I had taken control of the situation enough where killing him was no longer necessary." Hubby_MC "...take into account the "totallity of the circumstances" " Wise words, Gentlemen. Saint, your maturity shows by the way in which you dealt with the situation and its aftermath, including your reports of the incident here. Though the opinion of a guy on the internet is worth less than what it's written on, I think you did a fine job.  Regards, AR Emphasis in italics is mine. |
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Saint Regular Member
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I picked up two copies of the DVD that hubby put together from him today. It is a compilation of all of the news stories that were done about the incident. If anyone wants to see them let me know and i'll let you borrow it |
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BrianEMT Regular Member
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Here is the link: http://www.alieninnovations.com/saintktvb.wmv |
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BrianEMT Regular Member
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Whoa...did anyone see his original processing picture? |
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MarkinIdaho Regular Member
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You did very well, Saint. That guy is lucky to be alive. I've told several people about your incident who'd been considering whether or not they might start carrying... whether it was even necessary here. Well, all three of them have decided to start open carrying and to get ccw permits as well. |
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BrianEMT Regular Member
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Wait a second, the KTVB 7 reporter said "Tablerock Restaurant"...how do you even get this mixed up!? |
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Alwayspacking Activist Member 
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OMG Not to play armchair commando here, but if that guy had a gun pointed at me, at the first opportunity I had I would have fired my weapon on him. I see now there is a good reason to have one of my guns out of a holster when I drive. You my friend are brave to take his gun from him. I would not try to get that close to him myself. He better thank God he found you and not another person. |
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BrianEMT Regular Member
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Has anyone read the most recent comment?The pellet gunslinger approached the mighty concealed weapons permit holder with vengence pouring from his booze soaked eyes intent to wreak havoc and death upon the lawabiding citizen only to be faced with the business end of a .45. The citizen quickly recalled the rules of engagement determining in rapid fashion that he had every right to blow holes in the drunk devil before him. Alas, cooler heads prevailed and the stand off ended peacefully with another drunk behind bars and the good people of Idaho safe to blow holes in drunks another day.  |
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Alwayspacking Activist Member
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Sir. I really am saying this with all due respect. After I read the story I can not but help to think about this situation all day long, and some points that you brought out really bothers me. First I was not there so I do not know the entire situation you faced, but I myself have looked down the barrel of a few guns in my life so I know the feeling of being a inch away from possible death. I am truly sorry you had to face that ( not knowing it was a BB gun) Now here is what bothers me about your story. I know you used your judgment in the situation, and it was a very good one. The way this ended is ideal for everyone and everyone's family, and things it could have gotten very ugly for both of you.. All I keep asking myself time and time again is why would you not shoot this guy? I realize at one point you could do nothing at all when the gun is pointed at you, (as you sat in your car at gun point) and I realize from reading this that it was a time where lethal force would not have been justified, when he placed the gun in his pants, but between those times periods there was a time where someone yourself, or your friends was in danger of being shot. In the time his gun was not pointed at you, and you could have drawn your weapon and fired on this guy? What if he was really bent on killing someone? You had a opportunity to shot him and did not take it, that could have lead to someone or yourself being killed. Why do you carry a gun? I am not saying this to offend you, but I am serious. Why do you carry a gun? Is it to be cool, to be part of a OC movement, or do you carry not to become a victim and be killed? What will it take for you to use your weapon? You should just leave it at home next time. NOW I do not want to get you upset, I do not want to start a argument with you over this, but I am being serious. Sir, I carry to give myself a chance to defend myself if a threat comes to me that could kill me or my love ones. From what I read here there was a threat with a gun pointed at you, (lets say I was in your shoes). Drunk or not, a guy pointing a gun at me, threaten me and my friends, would be shot. I do not know if he would be crazy enough to shoot me or not, and I will not worry about the back stop if I am looking down a barrel of a gun, I am thinking about staying alive…. MAN could you pull the trigger on someone if you had to? What more would a guy have to do to you in order for you to shoot him? Because the next thing to having a gun pointed at you is pulling the trigger. I really just do not understand, a stranger points a gun at you, you are armed, and do nothing…. The next time someone points a gun at you, drunk or not they may just shoot you, you are lucky this guy had a BB gun and was bluffing, but if he had an intent to kill you with a real gun, and gave you an opportunity to fire first and you did not take it. You would be dead. I really wish I could praise you for your action, but I am thinking "what if" here. What if he did have a real gun and wanted to kill someone? You would have been dead). Do not get me wrong is good everything worked out for you and him. I keep thinking to myself, "I guess I had to have been there to see what you saw in the situation". But I keep going to the point a guy had you at gun point. (not every one bluffs with a gun) If it were me, his little game would have cost him his life. |
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Alwayspacking Activist Member
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ALSO: accidents happen. If he did have a real gun, and you figured he would not shoot anyone, accidents happen and he could have fired accidentally on someone, I would have shot him at least to prevent that from happening. |
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Saint Regular Member
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Alwayspacking wrote: Sir. I really am saying this with all due respect. After I read the story I can not but help to think about this situation all day long, and some points that you brought out really bothers me. First I was not there so I do not know the entire situation you faced, but I myself have looked down the barrel of a few guns in my life so I know the feeling of being a inch away from possible death. I am truly sorry you had to face that ( not knowing it was a BB gun) Now here is what bothers me about your story. I know you used your judgment in the situation, and it was a very good one. The way this ended is ideal for everyone and everyone's family, and things it could have gotten very ugly for both of you.. I am unsure how I can explain this more clearly than I have in my last posts. My decision not to shoot was based on real-time assessment of the situation. When he first pointed the gun at me I was at a HUGE tactical disadvantage. I had to get out of the car and into a better position and had to do it without getting him angry enough to fire. By the time I got to an acceptable tactical position, he was out of his truck and moving around the front of my car towards me. I knew that the backdrop behind him at that point had at least 6 people who would be behind my target and could potentially receive a stray bullet. When my friends came up at the end, the positioning was once again not good for taking a shot. He was standing about 3 feet away from me and my other friend was directly behind him. I had to wait until my firing lines were clear before I was going to be willing to take the shot. By the time the tactical conditions were right (entire thing lasted maybe 2 and a half mins) my shooting was no longer necessary. Everyone on here can make what ever judgments about me that they wish. They can say that I shouldn't be carrying a gun because I didn't use it. I think that is foolish. I was perfectly willing to shoot him if I thought it the right thing to do. My tactical analysis of the situation coupled with several other factors made me decide not to start shooting. The police agreed with my actions. Everyone who was up at Table Rock agreed with my actions and told me they were glad I didn't shoot. I caution anyone about speaking about what I should have done or whether or not I should even be carrying a weapon. Until you have been in that situation you can't possibly know how to react. |
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Sonora Rebel Regular Member 
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'Ain't no doubt in my military mind that 'some yahoo points a gun barrel of any sort at me... He/She is gonna get lit up right then. There will be no discussion.  |
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Alwayspacking Activist Member
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Ok understand you did not have a safe shot and did not take it, cool. It really makes me feel better that you are able to pull the trigger if needed to. It's good that you do care for others. Also being that I was not there, I am not sure if you ever had time to draw and fire, without him firing on you also. I really did not mean to come off so hard (if i did) but I just really hate to see innocent people die because of some guy that is just down right evil. (had he been) Yes, the very best outcome is the one you had. I really do not want anyone to be shot, It's very good you did not have to fire. I guess I would have just taken the risk myself. I do not think at such a close range I could miss center mass, with two single shots. I was not there so I could never completely understand you situation. Thanks for sharing, it really makes me see somethings I have to change in the way I carry. From now on in my car, my gun will always stay ready. Last edited on Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 08:05 pm by Alwayspacking |
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IndianaBoy79 Regular Member
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Hindsight is always 20/20. It's a great idea to take a second look after things are all over so that you can better prepare for next time. But all of this talk about what each of us would do if it had been us is silly; we have no clue what we would have done and we weren't able to assess the situation while it was happening. I agree with everyone, I hope my training would kick in and I would make the proper decision. Who of us can say that's not what happened with Saint? Saint, I for one am very glad that you don't have to deal with the emotional consequenses of taking a human life. For those out there who think it would be easy to kill, I suggest reading the book "On Killing," by Dave Grossman. Great book on what to expect in your own mind after having a legal kill. |
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Alwayspacking Activist Member
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It's just can't see myself not take a shot at a guy with a gun that has threatens to kill me or my family if he gave me the opportunity to. I have grown cold to people that are evil. In fact there are a few people that I met here in Qatar that will be (if not already) beheaded, some of them are getting their hands cut off and I do not feel the least bit sorry for them because they did wrong. They took a risk and got caught. If a guy wants to kill me or my family, and he is killed because I stood up for my family, I can't see myself feeling sorry for him. But If someone innocent dies, I am always devastated and I really think about them from time to time, I have prayed for the family of people that have died. Example the recent plane crash in Madrid, I have prayed for these people's family, and I am sadden by this crash. I have a strong deep sincere compassion for the innocent, I have no sympathy for the evil. I do think if I ever had to use my weapon on someone it would effect me, but I do not think i will feel sorry for the guy that tired to kill me. |
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IndianaBoy79 Regular Member
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I think we're on the same page here, but we're expressing ourselves differently. What I'm speaking about isn't "feeling sorry" for the bad guy or the men you speak of who are getting beheaded. If you are the one actually swinging the ax, compared to someone just watching the action, you'll be affected by it more. The more participation you have in a kill, the more "personal" the kill becomes (determined by how close you are to them, can you see his face, ect) then the more it will effect how you think about it afterwards. Most people would feel guilty, even KNOWING they did the right thing. Knowing what will happen to your mind will help you deal with that guilt, instead of wondering "What is wrong with me? I shouldn't feel guilty." I would HOPE I wouldn't feel guilty after a morally justified kill, but from what I've studied, it's more than likely that I will feel remorse, shame, and a wave of other feelings. My training involves getting myself physically ready, AND mentally prepared for the consequenses. Again, check out "On Killing," by Dave Grossman. |
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boom Regular Member 
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GreenDrake wrote: Good to go Saint, glad you had the composure the spare a life, taking one is not something anyone wants to have to do. +1... keep in mind people, that just because there is a court case does not mean you were guilty...... also where it says arresting officer, that does not always mean the person was arrested. It may just be the officer who wrote the ticket in many cases. (quote edited) |
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Task Force 16 Campaign Veteran
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I commend you sir for your ability to assess the situation while under stress. The fact is you had to assess and re-asses this situation repeatedly as it changed, and make dicisions according to your assesments throughout this ordeal. That says allot about your mental capabilities under pressure. And I'm sure that with every dicision you made, that there had to be somewhere in the back of you mind, something telling you that you might be making the wrong choice each time. Fortunately, it all came out OK in the end, with no injuries to anyone, aside from the BG's skint head. He's lucky he's still alive. There's anotehr aspect to this event and it's outcome that I don't think anyone has thought of. Saint's choice NOT to pull the trigger goes against all the anti-gunners predictions that allowing citizens to be armed would "turn the country into the WILD WILD West again". There was no shootout, that night, even though there easily could have been. Saint, I don't care what your mamma says about ya, you have grown up. |
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Alwayspacking Activist Member
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Also I would say that fate played a big role in his survival. The position of the bystanders, the calm mind of Saint, he not being too aggressive, the girl with saint.. it all help him live another day. |
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GoneFromForum Guest
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Also, Need I remind all the "fill 'im with lead" posters here: If you are in a situation where you need to shoot; ALL of these posts you are making will probably be dug up by the Prosecutor and used against you in your trial on 2nd degree manslaughter. Kudos Saint, I believe you did well, and achieved the best possible outcome. |
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cccook Founder's Club Member 
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Task Force 16 wrote: Saint's choice NOT to pull the trigger goes against all the anti-gunners predictions that allowing citizens to be armed would "turn the country into the WILD WILD West again". Amen. From a 2a, gun rights, CC, OC activist standpoint this incident serves us well. Saint, I commend you for your keen situational awareness and cool actions also for your composure after the event. You are a good representative for the cause and a great American. Well done. Great outcome. Also I hope that you (or any of us) never have to find out if we will pull the trigger "next time." Last edited on Sun Aug 24th, 2008 06:12 pm by cccook |
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Alwayspacking Activist Member
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GnGKlinger wrote: Also, Need I remind all the "fill 'im with lead" posters here: If you are in a situation where you need to shoot; ALL of these posts you are making will probably be dug up by the Prosecutor and used against you in your trial on 2nd degree manslaughter. I know I have been thinking about that also, even with my every post. So if I ever have to use my weapon (which I hope I never have to) I hope It will be a clear cut and dry case of SD. I not once in any of my 400+ post said anything showing the intent of a cold hard killer, or any ill intent, or being blood thirsty. But I do believe in not being a victim of a violent crime, so I can't re-track anything I have ever said on any site. If a man points a gun at me, then I would hope to fire before he shots me first. That's simple survival and SD. I am sure a cop would do the same. I hate to sound as a stubborn person but, I want myself and my family to live a long time together and not die by the hands of a wacko, and I will do my best to stay on this side of the ground. |
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Sonora Rebel Regular Member
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Alwayspacking wrote: GnGKlinger wrote:Also, Need I remind all the "fill 'im with lead" posters here: If you are in a situation where you need to shoot; ALL of these posts you are making will probably be dug up by the Prosecutor and used against you in your trial on 2nd degree manslaughter. +10 Assess obvious threat = Immediate reaction to counter/nullify threat. If I was concerned about being prosecuted for self defense... I'd leave my pistol home. Any residual doubt may prompt that split second of hesitation that could cost me my life or someone elses. Intellectual evaluation at that point can get'cha killed. It's not an academic exercise. I've shot 'people' before... who were armed and 'in the act...' They all don't carry BB pistols. I have a Walther CP 99 BB pistol that... in low light is a dead ringer for a 'real gun'. I would never hesitate. Last edited on Sun Aug 24th, 2008 07:45 pm by Sonora Rebel |
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Tomahawk Regular Member 
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Anyone who continues to criticize you after 4 pages of you explaining yourself is beating a dead horse at this point, Saint. Everbody's an expert but only you were on the spot that night. Good job at keeping a cool head. |
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GoneFromForum Guest
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Sonora Rebel wrote: Alwayspacking wrote: I totally agree with you both, but the anti-gun freak PA will who is looking for anything will be on the lookout for what will make you hang. they arent looking for what is right or wrong; Theyre looking to WIN and advance their career. At the price of putting you behind bars, even for a completely justified SD case. What good are you if youve survived, only to be in prison for years (or months, waiting for trial) because the PA says your a hot headed, gun totin, looking for trouble type that is best left there. How is your family gonna eat then? . . . . yes, hope for a clear, cut & dry case, always. But even then, you could get nailed to the wall in the courts, and still be as good as dead to your loved ones. Last edited on Sun Aug 24th, 2008 09:56 pm by |
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Hubby_MC Regular Member
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This is NOT another critique....... just an observation! you made Gunwatch! http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2008/08/gun-rights-on-trial-homeowner-suddenly.html I am no fan of Dennis Mansfield but here you are again on this blog........... http://www.dennismansfield.com/business/2008/08/open-carry-here.html Last edited on Mon Aug 25th, 2008 12:22 am by Hubby_MC |
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BrianEMT Regular Member
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Hubby_MC wrote: This is NOT another critique....... just an observation! you made Gunwatch! Now this is interesting... Boise Police spokesman Charles McClure said. The other man involved in the confrontation displayed his handgun legally and police determined he was fully within his rights to defend himself at the time, McClure said. I'm not sure if that was in other articles, now the extend of this statement is always up for questioning. Does that apply to merely drawing the gun, or does it literally mean "dropping him like a sack of potatoes" as some would say? |
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Hubby_MC Regular Member
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I will explain further in a PM for ya! |
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gravedigger Regular Member
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Well, this is all very interesting. First, I am glad neither you nor your friends were harmed or killed. As for the drunk inbred genetic public school educated mutant hillbilly in the pickup, I really couldn't care less what happened or didn't happen to him. I am bothered by your hessitation to shoot. At first you were not in a position to draw your weapon, but certainly, a gun of unknown potential being pointed at MY face would have immediately removed any doubt I had about my life being in iminent danger, and I'd make damned sure he never got a second chance to point that gun at me. Then there is the issue of "counseling." I just flat out do not understand that. It isn't as if you were reaching for your cellular phone to be the fifth caller to a radio station that was giving away a free Bible study course and your watch band accidentally pulled the trigger of your holstered weapon thereby killing dear old Mrs. Magee, the well-known and respected community church lady who was carry brownies from the grocery store to the church social to raise money for orphaned kittens. You were dealing with an intoxicated derranged obviously uncivilized anti-social goober who had access to a vehicle and a gun, who was displaying OBVIOUS lack of self-control, who was demonstrably aggressive and beligerant, and who, at any time, could have turned the gun or the pickup truck on YOU, your friends or the other bystanders. Yet, some would say that they'd be receiving counseling ... to deal with the knowledge that they had taken a human life? I'm sorry, but I'd lose more sleep over misplacing my favorite ball point pen than I would over dropping that guy, in that situation, on that night, in that parking lot. If I ran over a small rabbit who couldn't cross the road fast enough and my efforts to avoid hitting it failed, I would feel a bit of remorse over the waste of a potentially beautiful life of an innocent creature, but if I step on a cockroach in my kitchen, it is only on my mind for as long as it takes to scrape the goo from the sole of my shoe. Last edited on Mon Aug 25th, 2008 01:13 am by gravedigger |
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IndianaBoy79 Regular Member
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gravedigger wrote: Yet, some would say that they'd be receiving counseling ... to deal with the knowledge that they had taken a human life? I'm sorry, but I'd lose more sleep over misplacing my favorite ball point pen than I would over dropping that guy, in that situation, on that night, in that parking lot. If I ran over a small rabbit who couldn't cross the road fast enough and my efforts to avoid hitting it failed, I would feel a bit of remorse over the waste of a potentially beautiful life of an innocent creature, but if I step on a cockroach in my kitchen, it is only on my mind for as long as it takes to scrape the goo from the sole of my shoe. Not enough room to get into a deep conversation on this one, but I agree with you, that's how I'd WANT to feel about the situation. I don't want to feel sorry for the bad guy at all. The scientific evidence shows otherwise though. There are certain inhibitions in your brain that make it difficult to take another life. Hunters feel it when they go on their first hunt and have their first kill. Not as intense, but similar. The studies I read all involved trained solders and police officers who were TRAINED to take a life and even ordered to do so. If a person with that level of experience and training has been proven to have emotional consequenses, then why do you assume you will be immune? Again, I don't want to feel sorry for him, and logically, I shouldn't. But the stats show I probably will, and I'd rather understand what my brain and emotions would go through than just assume I'm a tough guy and it won't effect me. |
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Alwayspacking Activist Member
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GnGKlinger wrote: I totally agree with you both, but the anti-gun freak PA will who is looking for anything will be on the lookout for what will make you hang. they arent looking for what is right or wrong; Theyre looking to WIN and advance their career. At the price of putting you behind bars, even for a completely justified SD case. This is something I could never understand. Years ago I thought if I ever had to use lethal force because someone was trying to kill me, the PA/DA would just look for a reason to lock me up, it is really sad. Because I know I risk going to jail this is what I do not to give fuel to the PA. I do not go to any bad area of a city unless I must go there. I do not have any offensive tattoos ( gun related or what-not) I do not carry more rounds than the cops I keep my attitude in check I do not commit crimes I mind my own business, if I am in amy confrontation it is because someone brought it to me unprovoked, ( that I know of). I do sometimes go for a bike ride or walk at night, that could be a problem, ( PD- "he was out looking for trouble)" But I can't and wont chance my life because I fear some PA will try to hang me. On my way to work today I was thinking, There are come cases where a guy may have a gun out and I not feel the need to shoot him, but in this case where he pointed the gun at a guys face point blank range, that is a not something he will do twice. Have you ever watched videos on liveleaks? Or on Most Shocking videos. I am talking about real live videos, not scripted, and no acting. These thugs on the streets will shoot you for no reason, or just for the thrill of it. This outcome was GOLDEN, Platinum I do not argue that fact, but I keep thinking what would he do next time this happens, when they guy has a real gun, and will shoot? Saint told me he would have fired his gun, but did not have a good shot, that's really what i wanted to here because I want to know he would do what it takes to stay alive. When I read this topic, I went through a wide range of emotions until i could get back and get it all off my chest. I placed myself in his shoes in my mind because this could have happened to any of us. |
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gravedigger Regular Member
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IndianaBoy79 wrote: gravedigger wrote:if I step on a cockroach in my kitchen, it is only on my mind for as long as it takes to scrape the goo from the sole of my shoe. Nothing "tough guy" about it. Just matter-of-fact reality. A year ago, a very beautiful bird flew into one of my my sliding glass doors by my pool. I heard the noise and went out to discover an otherwise fully functional bird with a broken neck. It was trying to fly away, but it's head was bobbing around seemingly unconnected except for the bird's apparent ability to still operate it's legs and wings and such. It wasn't just randomly flapping either. It looked like it could actually fly away, if only it could get it's head vertical. I knew that there was nothing I could do for the bird, and I knew I had the sad task of ending it's life. I said a small prayer for the bird's soul (some people don't believe birds and animals have souls, but they've never owned a cat or a dog.) I wrapped the bird in a towel and took up the slack to minimize it's ability to struggle, and submerged the bird slowly into a bucket of room temperature tap water, where I held it until it stopped moving. Yes, taking that bird's life affected me, because the bird did nothing wrong to have it's life ended so abruptly. It was no threat to me. But the source of my sadness was not taking a life. It was taking an INNOCENT life of one of God's creatures. I cannot imagine myself experiencing remorse at having shot some pathetic drunken raving brain-dead anti-social maniac in self-defense who just pointed a gun at my face. I cannot imagine feeling any remorse whatsoever. |
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marshaul Activist Member 
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Saint wrote:I am unsure how I can explain this more clearly than I have in my last posts. My decision not to shoot was based on real-time assessment of the situation. I think we can all learn something from this experience. I, for one, would hope to show the same maturity, judgement, and ultimately restraint, as this man did. I really do get the feeling there are a few posters in this thread who are a bit more "trigger happy" (I hate to use that term) than I would hope myself to be. If anything, I worry that, in such a circumstance as having a gun pointed at me, I would simply be so afraid that I would not think to react any other way than with lethal force. But, I truly hope that should such a situation ever arise, I could remain calm enough to analyze the situation, and in control enough to diffuse the situation without taking any life. As for the risk of being shot, none of us were there. In hindsight, it's safe to say there was no "need" for any shots to be fired. So, who are we to say that this man's tactical analysis lead him to the wrong conclusion? On the contrary, it lead to the best possible resolution of a bad situation. Instead of criticizing the man for not (unnecessarily) killing the "drunk inbred genetic public school educated mutant hillbilly", we should all pray that in the event of such a potentially life-destroying assault, we might be so lucky as to not be forced into taking a life, or to only face an airsoft gun instead of a .45. Last edited on Mon Aug 25th, 2008 08:44 am by marshaul |
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rodbender Founder's Club Member 
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You showed a lot more restraint than I would have. When someone points a gun at me, talking is DONE. |
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dyver1 Regular Member 
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Well Done Saint!!!! You are getting a lot of flack from others here about not shooting the guy, but let me enter my $.02 here. One of the things I have learned from many years of running fire and rescue and also working in the intel community is that NO 2 situations are ever the same. The best way to deal with any stressful situation is to take stock of the situation and determine the best course of action to deal with the situation at hand. You were clearly caught in a difficult situation with your weapon NOT readily available to you without risking the perp firing on you or your friends before you could have even cleared the leather. Also when dealing with someone who is clearly impaired, slow deliberate non-threatening moves are the best course of action. You are to be commended for your cool head and diffusing the situation with no loss of life. Let me make myself clear here, there are times when a reactive draw and fire is clearly the best response, but in this case, given the facts as Saint described them, he took the best course of action and all lived to walk away. The fact that you said in one of your other posts that you learned something from this encounter and might do some things differently if this were to happen again is great. In the fire service, we ALWAYS criitique our response after every call, no matter how well it went. There is always something to be learned from this type of experience, those who keep an open mind and learn from the experience are the ones who become the best. One more comment, someone earlier asked about why the PD disarmed Saint. In my opinion, for the safety of all concerned in a tense situation, this was clearly justified. If I had been there, I would have probably volunteered my weapon to the PD to hold on site until all was done, after I had cleared it of course. The after effects of an adrenaline rush like Saint and the others on the scene must have felt can do strange things to people, trust me, I have seen it.  Be safe out there. Paul Last edited on Mon Aug 25th, 2008 12:14 pm by dyver1 |
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Tomahawk Regular Member
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gravedigger wrote: I wrapped the bird in a towel and took up the slack to minimize it's ability to struggle, and submerged the bird slowly into a bucket of room temperature tap water, where I held it until it stopped moving. |
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Alwayspacking Activist Member
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Tomahawk wrote: gravedigger wrote:I wrapped the bird in a towel and took up the slack to minimize it's ability to struggle, and submerged the bird slowly into a bucket of room temperature tap water, where I held it until it stopped moving.  YEAH Maybe try a ax next time, quick and painless Last edited on Mon Aug 25th, 2008 01:57 pm by Alwayspacking |
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Alwayspacking Activist Member
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marshaul wrote:
I would just like to clear something here I understand I am one who said he should have shot this guy when he had the chance yes. I was not there so I can only use my imagination here in this case, and in my mind I see a guy that is showing he means serious business waving a gun and threatening people. But Saint could have seen something else in his demeanor that showed a bluff or something. I also said earlier that at the point where he was pointing the gun at Saint or his friend he should have fired, but he waited and then the guy started talking to a girl there the threat was not as serious as it was when looking down the business end of a gun. So I say lethal force is not warranted any longer, and the following action he took was very mush correct accept getting close enough to take his gun away. (at least while he is still standing.) So to make myself understood more so, then I will try not bother anyone anymore, there was only a short time frame where lethal force should have been taken, that is when the gun was being pointed. But let me add this, If after the BG pointed the gun at Saint friends.. if the wacko would have turned it back on Saint and fired ( speaking as if it were a real gun because no one knew it was a BB gun) what would people say then? They would have said why did he not shoot the guy the first time he pointed the gun at him. |
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BrianEMT Regular Member
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gravedigger wrote:...submerged the bird slowly into a bucket of room temperature tap water, where I held it until it stopped moving. Doesn't sound like its life ended "abruptly". It would have probably been better off dying on its own without a painful drowning. In such a case why wouldn't you have just shot it? That just seems wrong to me. Even more wrong than opening fire on a gun-wielding suspect.  |
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Peacemaker Regular Member
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gravedigger wrote: ...I wrapped the bird in a towel and took up the slack to minimize it's ability to struggle, and submerged the bird slowly into a bucket of room temperature tap water, where I held it until it stopped moving.... Um, how about grabbing its neck and swinging it around until fully snapped. That's a VERY quick way to take a chicken before plucking and cooking it. In general, when finding a humane way to take an animal you must use a method that is very quick. Otherwise the poor thing will suffer. This was a bird, not a lobster! |
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Domandred Regular Member
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Um, how about grabbing its neck and swinging it around until fully snapped. Not intending to derail the thread but I got a funny story about that. Neighborhood stray cat that we feed decided to return the favor one day and dropped a pigeon on the front door step. I was outside at the time so I saw her bringing the bird up. Bird wasn't dead yet but was going to be soon so I decided to put it out of it's misery. Walked up, grabbed the bird by the head spun it without thinking...just like I do all the pheasants and chukar when I'm hunting. Wife opens the front door just as this pigeon is getting it's neck wrung.... Poor wife hadn't ever seen that...yea she freaked... Last edited on Mon Aug 25th, 2008 05:00 pm by Domandred |
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Gunslinger Regular Member
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gravedigger wrote: IndianaBoy79 wrote:gravedigger wrote:if I step on a cockroach in my kitchen, it is only on my mind for as long as it takes to scrape the goo from the sole of my shoe. I agree with you on both points. |
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IdahoCorsair State Researcher 
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While I was/am critical of Saints lack of action in a certain respect he has learned from this situation, and is taking steps to be more prepared in case there is a next time (I know him personally). Also, consider this: If you all who carry a gun full time haven't read "On Killing" by Dave Grossman, you should. It is a MUST for any person who carries a gun. There is a natural very strong urge in the human psyche to not kill another human. Even in warfare when the Nazis were shooting at WWII troops, the number of soliders who voluntarily would shoot back was shockingly (and sickeningly) low. I want to say roughly 50% of WWII soldiers voluntarily shot back if I remember correctly... and this is knowing the enemy is evil, and this is while under direct attack! Many would rather die than shoot back, risking taking a human life!!!  Others just made sure they shot, but over the heads of the enemy, so they could save face with their buddies, but also so they didn't have to kill.Just to help put in perspective that what Saint did (or didn't do) was largely 'natural' and 'just human.' |
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Alwayspacking Activist Member
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you are a good man, Please do not take anything i said the wrong way . It all worked out for everyone. Last edited on Mon Aug 25th, 2008 06:27 pm by Alwayspacking |
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FiremanJoe Regular Member 
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Hey from what all I read, I think Saint would make a find good LEO!!! Has sensible street sense, not gung ho, used calm decision making to protect others from a idiot... Great Job Saint!! |
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Dustin Regular Member 
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Ohio Patriot wrote: Sorry, but at this point I would have taken cover and shot him. I mean, I’m glad everything worked out O.K. But if someone pointed a gun at me while in their car, and then proceeded to get out of their car w/ gun in hand, I would have popped them as soon as they exited their car. Even though in the end he only had a BB Gun. I would have probably done the same thing. I don't take a Gun pointed at me lightly, I take that as a threat on my life and would have reacted to that threat. Last edited on Tue Sep 9th, 2008 03:14 pm by Dustin |
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idahomilitia Regular Member 
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It's easy to judge a situation not being there. I was threatened here in Boise by a group attempting to rob me 2 years back. I pulled my gun and it ended the attempt very readily. BPD said I was justified in pulling my gun. In that situation I could have justifiably shot them. But I know exactly how Saint felt having been there myself. When it comes right down to it, I don't want to kill anyone, and as I drew my weapon, I prayed it would be enough. It was. In California working as an armed guard, I had other times where I had to pull my gun. It never gets easier. In each instance it was the same feeling. Please don't make me have to use this. And in each situation, thankfully, it wasn't necessary to shoot. I know that if the situation goes south, hesitancy can get me killed, but I felt out each situation and knew in each case just the threat of deadly force was sufficient. Taking a human life can tear your soul to shreds no matter how justifiable. Movies tend to portray bad guys and worthless thugs who deserve to be shot as expediantly as possible. But in real life we don't deal with "bad guys" we deal with flawed human beings, some of which have gone errant and need help. They are people with hopes, dreams, and family that love them. Hopefully a little jail time will get them back on the right track. I'm sure that Saint also used instinct, and because of that, this man is sitting in jail with a chance to make his life better. The law says if we're threatened by deadly force we can respond with deadly force, but whether or not we feel our life was actually threatened is something we need to decide for ourselves. If you don't feel your life is actually threatened and you shoot, you will get away with it, but you will live with that guilt for the rest of your life. |
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ProtectedBy9mm Regular Member 
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At this point he turned into his truck, reached onto the seat and retrieved a handgun which he then pointed at me and threatened me again. I instantly went into Condition Red and opened my drivers door to exit my car. i know the end of the story was that the man ended up having a BB gun. BUT bro! Wow, i am so sorry to hear that you all had to experience that. I am glad that you were quick on your feet and thinking. your the man, curretly my hero. Also, THIS guy is lucky you didn't just "eliminate the threat", i am sure that not only yourself, but the 2 friend with you -were in iminent fear of death and/or bodily harm and/or injury. Again: i am happy that you came out of it alright: credit to your smarts. Attached Image (viewed 120 times): |
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Alwayspacking Activist Member
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idahomilitia wrote: It's easy to judge a situation not being there. I was threatened here in Boise by a group attempting to rob me 2 years back. I pulled my gun and it ended the attempt very readily. BPD said I was justified in pulling my gun. In that situation I could have justifiably shot them. But I know exactly how Saint felt having been there myself. When it comes right down to it, I don't want to kill anyone, and as I drew my weapon, I prayed it would be enough. It was. In California working as an armed guard, I had other times where I had to pull my gun. It never gets easier. In each instance it was the same feeling. Please don't make me have to use this. And in each situation, thankfully, it wasn't necessary to shoot. From the first time I read this until now this story had been going through my mind. I understand he did not want to place his friends in danger, I would not want to place my family in danger also if they were behind the target. Yes there are times where shooting is not the answer and just drawing the gun will work I agree. I myself just rather be seen beside my gun the behind it. |
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Dustin Regular Member
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Alwayspacking wrote:
What ? Eitherway I too agree that without being there, no one really knows what it was like. But I have to say, I seriously am concerned in why you didn't pull the trigger on a man threatening you with a gun. In my mind it doesn't even seem like an option. You point a gun at me, threaten me, and then do both while approaching me, and I'll Fire. Then again, we weren't there, and I could easily understand that maybe a HIGHER power, kept you from pulling the trigger. |
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Scooter123 Regular Member
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In all the post here, I haven't seen any mention of the consequences that would have occured had Saint chosen to use his gun. Frankly, one of my greatest fears about carrying is if I were to use deadly force in response to what turned out to be a toy. So, lets just suppose that he had killed this moron. The very first thing that would have been discovered by the police would be that it was a shooting in response to a non lethal weapon. The next thing that would happen is that Saint would have been placed in handcuffs, read his rights, and placed under arrest. As for the charges that he would face, that could range all the way from nothing to 2nd degree murder. AND those charges wouldn't be brought as an impartial decision by the D.A., those charges would be dependent on how the Media reacted to a deadly shooting in response to someone being threatened with a toy. Just picture the media circus that would result. The simple fact is the Justice won't enter into the equation one damn bit, the only thing that will matter is what slant to the story will give the media the highest ratings. And the D.A. will go in whatever direction the media circus drives him. So, now he has to defend himself against the charges that have been brought against him. For those who are not aware of it, really good legal representation can cost anywhere from 500 to 1500 dollars PER HOUR. Before all the dust settles, I think that it's likely that he would be without a home, a job, or any savings. We had a case in Detroit a while back where an ARMED carjacker was killed by someone with a CCW license and it was witnessed by an off duty police officer who was across the street. The final ruling was Justifiable Homicide but hiring legal representation to assure that he came out OK cost him thousands of dollars. In addition his weapon was siezed and 16 months later it's still logged in as "evidence" and the DPD is in no hurry to return it. There is also the fact that he is still at risk of any third cousin of the carjacker filling a worngfull death lawsuit if they can find a lawyer sleazy enough to file the suit. I won't argue that we all have the Right to Defend ourselves because we do. Unfortunately the Media seems to have forgotten that. What I am simply pointing out is that exercizing that right will come at a real financial cost. If you should ever have to defend yourself, the very first thing you should do is KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT AND HIRE A GOOD LAWYER. Otherwise you may find a perfectly innocent statement being twisted and used against you. If you have to shoot, just plan on spending at least 1 night in jail and don't even think about giving the police any statement until you have your lawyer sitting next to you. As for your gun, it will be siezed and you'll probably be best to just write it off. I expect that the cost of hiring a lawyer to get your gun back will far exceed the cost of the gun. If you think that isn't fair, tough. As my father always told me, Life isn't always fair, get used to it. Finally, to Saint. God Bless you. You did exactly the right thing in a very trying circumstance. I only hope that if I ever have to face a choice like yours I will be able to act in a manner as correctly as you did. Last edited on Fri Sep 19th, 2008 05:11 am by Scooter123 |
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Sonora Rebel Regular Member
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'Don't matter of it was a 'toy'... or a finger in his pocket. IF pointed at YOU... used/brandished with the same intent and purpose as a REAL gun... you have no reason to assume that it's not. If you are in immediate fear for your life by that sort of action... then you're completely justified in pullin' the bang switch. This was in low-light. I have a Walther CP 99 BB pistol that's a dead ringer for a 9mm other than the 'bore'... which is masked anyway. If you do not intend to defend yourself... don't carry. if you're concerned about lawyers and all that... don't carry. If you're all that intimidated by the 'what if's'... don't carry. If you percieve an object to be a weapon... then it's a weapon. Cops have shot people for waving around their cell phones in the dark. |
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mdgary Regular Member 
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Scooter123 wrote: In all the post here, I haven't seen any mention of the consequences that would have occured had Saint chosen to use his gun. Frankly, one of my greatest fears about carrying is if I were to use deadly force in response to what turned out to be a toy. WARNING:BRUTAL KILLING ON VIDEO WATCH AT OWN RISK... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akvtGcH_djs This guy was shot by LA county sheriffs office,he presented a flip flop which he found on the porch .Not even close to a toy gun and he was shot to death. |
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Gunslinger Regular Member
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mdgary wrote: Scooter123 wrote:In all the post here, I haven't seen any mention of the consequences that would have occured had Saint chosen to use his gun. Frankly, one of my greatest fears about carrying is if I were to use deadly force in response to what turned out to be a toy. @#$%ing @#$% cops. Killed an unarmed man and their own dog. What a bunch of murderous scum. Probably got 2 days paid administrative leave. Gradually, this country is learning just who the domestic enemy some of us are sworn to protect the Constitution from really is. Last edited on Fri Sep 19th, 2008 08:22 pm by Gunslinger |
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BrianEMT Regular Member
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Gunslinger wrote:@#$%ing @#$% cops. Killed an unarmed man and their own dog. What a bunch of murderous scum. Probably got 2 days paid administrative leave. Gradually, this country is learning just who the domestic enemy some of us are sworn to protect the Constitution from really is. You have GOT to be kidding me. I am sick of people like you slinging crap at law enforcement for a justifiable shooting at a suspect who was obviously unstable and armed. Regardless of whether or not the suspect was brandishing a toy gun, a real gun, or a cell phone, each presents a similar and equally dangerous situation. In this situation, and taking into account the totality of the circumstances, I feel more sorry for the highly-trained police service dog than I do about the suspect. I'm not sure what I thought of you before, but now I certainly don't care or believe anything you have to say, as this has probably been the most IGNORANT thing that could have possibly been said. |
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mdgary Regular Member
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BrianEMT wrote: You have GOT to be kidding me. I am sick of people like you slinging crap at law enforcement for a justifiable shooting at a suspect who was obviously unstable and armed. Regardless of whether or not the suspect was brandishing a toy gun, a real gun, or a cell phone, each presents a similar and equally dangerous situation. Try pointing a fake gun at a police officer or me and see what happens.You think you would be able to post on this or any forum again? I'll answer that for you .(No) |
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American Rattlesnake Regular Member
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BrianEMT wrote: You have GOT to be kidding me. I am sick of people like you slinging crap at law enforcement for a justifiable shooting at a suspect who was obviously unstable and armed. Regardless of whether or not the suspect was brandishing a toy gun, a real gun, or a cell phone, each presents a similar and equally dangerous situation. A justifiable shooting of a guy who was armed....with a sandal? And you equate the danger of a suspect brandishing cell phones with suspects brandishing real guns? |
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Sonora Rebel Regular Member
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I watched the thing... Those idiots shot their own dog. They had him under surveillance for quite some time... not an immediate shoot. There were a LOT of cops... Not one of them approached. What kind'a pansys they got in Compton now? Girlymen? No... that WAS NOT a good shoot. That was a bunch'a pantywaist amatures playin' police. |
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mdgary Regular Member
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Sonora Rebel wrote: 'Don't matter of it was a 'toy'... or a finger in his pocket. IF pointed at YOU... used/brandished with the same intent and purpose as a REAL gun... you have no reason to assume that it's not. If you are in immediate fear for your life by that sort of action... then you're completely justified in pullin' the bang switch. My point exactly! That's why I posted this video ,The cops thought there life or the life of the K9 was in danger,so they reacted.If you take time to figure out it's not a real gun (toy) then it could be to LATE. |
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Sonora Rebel Regular Member
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THEY... shot the K9. The dog didn't even hardly get there 'n the bullets started flyin'. Let the dog do what it's there for... 'Sorry... but if you're THAT fearful... you shouldn't be a cop... or an infantryman or cross the street by yourself. |
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BrianEMT Regular Member
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mdgary wrote: BrianEMT wrote:You have GOT to be kidding me. I am sick of people like you slinging crap at law enforcement for a justifiable shooting at a suspect who was obviously unstable and armed. Regardless of whether or not the suspect was brandishing a toy gun, a real gun, or a cell phone, each presents a similar and equally dangerous situation. Sounds like you are quoting the wrong person. |
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mdgary Regular Member
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The guy made a direct threat to the officers and the K9 "let the dog go and I will shoot him"At that point the officers must have thought he had a firearm. Even though he only had a flipflop just like a toy gun it was used to threaten a life and therefore cost him his. Any threat to your life whether with a toy gun or a bazooka should be taken seriously and acted on accordingly ...Better to be judge by twelve than carried by six. |
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mdgary Regular Member
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BrianEMT wrote: mdgary wrote:Sorry about that BrianEMT... My appologies I misread your post ,won't happen again...BrianEMT wrote:You have GOT to be kidding me. I am sick of people like you slinging crap at law enforcement for a justifiable shooting at a suspect who was obviously unstable and armed. Regardless of whether or not the suspect was brandishing a toy gun, a real gun, or a cell phone, each presents a similar and equally dangerous situation. I see where I screwed up..... Last edited on Sat Sep 20th, 2008 02:53 am by mdgary |
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Hubby_MC Regular Member
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BrianEMT wrote: Gunslinger wrote:You sir, are an idiot. People like you are hurting your cause of Open Carry more than all the leftist liberals out there today. Stupid statements like this make you sound like a nut. Suicide by cop is not the same as murder and if you cant tell the difference between telling officers you have a gun and murder you should not be allowed anywhere near a weapon.@#$%ing @#$% cops. Killed an unarmed man and their own dog. What a bunch of murderous scum. Probably got 2 days paid administrative leave. Gradually, this country is learning just who the domestic enemy some of us are sworn to protect the Constitution from really is. Too bad you post such ignorant statements on a public forum like this representing your fellow OCers. One step foreward, two steps back................ Last edited on Sat Sep 20th, 2008 01:06 pm by Hubby_MC |
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Dustin Regular Member
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Sonora Rebel wrote: I watched the thing... Those idiots shot their own dog. They had him under surveillance for quite some time... not an immediate shoot. There were a LOT of cops... Not one of them approached. What kind'a pansys they got in Compton now? Damn Straight ! Those cops deserved to have those badges shoved in their ASS ! Ever heard of NON-LETHAL FORCE ? Bean Bag, Tazer, Gas, Flashbang. They obviously had PLENTY of time to get those things ready. These guys talked to him for 5 minutes, then forced an action on him, then shot him 30 F.ing Times !?!? I hope they all got FIRED ! |
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Sonora Rebel Regular Member
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'Wasn't gadgets that they lacked... it was personal courage and discipline. Sorry fellas... 'guts goes with the job. BTDT! Ya gotta 'cowboy up' now 'n then. |
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Dustin Regular Member
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Sonora Rebel wrote: 'Wasn't gadgets that they lacked... it was personal courage and discipline. Sorry fellas... 'guts goes with the job. BTDT! Ya gotta 'cowboy up' now 'n then. I'm truly sickened by this. Gangsta, Rapper, Black/White Still a Kid. 81 shots fired, 22 make there mark. But what can you expect from the training they get - NONE ! |
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Sonora Rebel Regular Member
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Somebody cut loose with a full auto somethin'. Maybe an MP-5. Why? The dog was on him... just barely. I didn't even see reason for the dog. I did see extreme cowardice among these cops tho. A collective wimp-out. The guy was in the open... lit up... what else they need? You go in 'n effect the arrest. BTDT too. Alone. That's what they pay you for. That's why they give you a gun and a badge 'n handcuffs and AUTHORITY. That was NOT a good shoot. |
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Seabolt Regular Member 
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Did any of you watch the video. It dosnt matter if the dude was holding a sandal. he reapatedly said he had a gun. he said he had 13 rounds, and if they release the dogs he would shoot the dogs and them. He got what he had coming. Im with Brian on this one. i feel sorry for the dog, could care less what happend to the guy. |
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Sonora Rebel Regular Member
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Perps say all sorts of things. Sometimes they're just crazy... Crazy people say all sorts of things. The cops shot the dog and the perp before the dog could do it's job. Let the dog do what it was trained to do. None of that happened. Why? 'Cause some 'cops were flat scared outt'a their wits and had no clue how to handle the situation. Nobody took fire. I don't care what he 'said'. The dog didn't take fire (cept from the rear). This was NOT a good shoot. No... I don't care much about the hoodlum either... but this was Murder 2. |
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Saint Regular Member
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The guy said he had a gun. He said he had 13 shots. He said he would shoot if the officers let a dog loose on him. He was holding 'something' in his hand in a low light situation that could be reasonably construed as a weapon. I think the cops should have used more restraint and tried a non-lethal take down first. However, they had more than ample reason to believe that the perp was armed and willing to kill, and they responded in a way that was perfectly legal. There is no doubt though that the training of these officers must be extremely poor if only 1 in 4 shots hit the man and they killed their own police dog on top of it. |
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Task Force 16 Campaign Veteran
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I only watch this until after the shooting was over and the dust was settling. The kid was an idiot trying to bluff the police when he knew he didn't have squat. He escalated the situation by claiming to have a gun and refusing to comply with the officers to drop what ever he was holding out of sight and surrender. He knew the event was being video taped and figured this was his chance for his 15 minutes of fame. He got what he asked for. The only question I have here is why so many officers have to open fire at once? Why not let the K9 do his/her job before shooting? It appears that some of these officers need some serious range time as well. |
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hitbackfirst Regular Member 
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If someone threatens to kill you (LEO or civilian) eliminating the threat is the correct course of action. It is not necessary to risk your life making sure the perp has the capability to carry out the threat. The only victim was the dog. |
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BrianEMT Regular Member
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hitbackfirst wrote: If someone threatens to kill you (LEO or civilian) eliminating the threat is the correct course of action. It is not necessary to risk your life making sure the perp has the capability to carry out the threat. The only victim was the dog. I'm glad to see there are at least a few people here who can think clearly and logically. In that situation, no amount of less-lethal force is going to stop the threat. And I don't think they equip every unit with XREPs yet, which would have been the only thing that could have stopped the threat without deadly force. No amount of gas, beanbags, or other less-lethal options at that range would have been enough to keep the suspect from opening fire. Before the next ignorant nutjob screams that the officers in the line of duty are these "murderous pigs", try thinking with some logic, instead of this ridiculous mentality you have been following. I guarantee you if someday you are involved in a shoot, this thread will be dug up and the phrases herein used against you. Although most of you irrational members are out of state, which explains quite a lot. Here in Idaho we use our firearms responsibly. Try it sometime. |
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Gunslinger Regular Member
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BrianEMT wrote: Gunslinger wrote:@#$%ing @#$% cops. Killed an unarmed man and their own dog. What a bunch of murderous scum. Probably got 2 days paid administrative leave. Gradually, this country is learning just who the domestic enemy some of us are sworn to protect the Constitution from really is. "Obviously armed!" Are you blind? He was "armed" with a flipflop. They sent the dog, and I feel bad for him, then executed the guy and the dog--because why? They were trigger happy bastards, that's why. Why send the dog and then open fire? The K9 was in process of getting the guy. So why shoot? And I won't lose any sleep worrying what you or the other "law and order" apologists think of me. We don't need badged executioners in this country, and that's just what these pos were. And you that support them blindly are just as bad. "We must take away the guns to make the streets safe for the SS." A. Hitler |
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Sonora Rebel Regular Member
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Correctamundo! Trigger happy... possibly a pair of MP-5's (or more) That wasn't 'handgun' fire. |
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Gunslinger Regular Member
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BrianEMT wrote: hitbackfirst wrote:If someone threatens to kill you (LEO or civilian) eliminating the threat is the correct course of action. It is not necessary to risk your life making sure the perp has the capability to carry out the threat. The only victim was the dog. In that situation, any amount of less lethal force would have stopped the guy from using his flipflop. The ID cops certainly used theirs "responsibly." As far as what you post on the IN being "used against you": only when the Secret Police take you to the tribunal and you face the hooded judges. That will be the final chapter of "law and order." |
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Gunslinger Regular Member
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Hubby_MC wrote: BrianEMT wrote:Gunslinger wrote:You sir, are an idiot. People like you are hurting your cause of Open Carry more than all the leftist liberals out there today. Stupid statements like this make you sound like a nut. Suicide by cop is not the same as murder and if you cant tell the difference between telling officers you have a gun and murder you should not be allowed anywhere near a weapon.@#$%ing @#$% cops. Killed an unarmed man and their own dog. What a bunch of murderous scum. Probably got 2 days paid administrative leave. Gradually, this country is learning just who the domestic enemy some of us are sworn to protect the Constitution from really is. Zeig heil! The police are our friends. Law and order first and foremost. The law of the concentration camp and the order of the graveyard. The "cause" of OC is dependant on an understanding that this nation is a nation of LAW! Not badged Gestapo who are above it. I don't hate the police, far from it. I do hate the storm trooper mentality that they are the ubermensch and we the sheep dependant on their good graces. Obey them, or go to the slaughterhouse. You, sir, are the idiot. Kneejerk reactionary. Keep on supporting your local police; I'll keep on supporting the Bill of Rights. |
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marshaul Activist Member
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Gunslinger wrote:BrianEMT wrote:Gunslinger wrote:@#$%ing @#$% cops. Killed an unarmed man and their own dog. What a bunch of murderous scum. Probably got 2 days paid administrative leave. Gradually, this country is learning just who the domestic enemy some of us are sworn to protect the Constitution from really is. +1 I agree with all your posts on this subject. Sonora Rebel wrote: Somebody cut loose with a full auto somethin'. Maybe an MP-5. Why? The dog was on him... just barely. I didn't even see reason for the dog. I did see extreme cowardice among these cops tho. A collective wimp-out. The guy was in the open... lit up... what else they need? You go in 'n effect the arrest. BTDT too. Alone. That's what they pay you for. That's why they give you a gun and a badge 'n handcuffs and AUTHORITY. That was NOT a good shoot. I think the point of the dog was to get him to react, so they could all shoot him. To me, he reacts like he's downright scared when they release the dog, throwing his flip flop like that. I'm sure they knew that would happen. I'm sure they didn't "mean" to hit the dog, but they weren't exactly worried about its safety either -- that much is obvious. Last edited on Mon Sep 22nd, 2008 10:12 pm by marshaul |
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Sonora Rebel Regular Member
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The reason for the dog is to disable him... distract him 'til the LEO's can effect the arrest. Now... had he shot the dog or shot at the dog or beyond you could possibly expect a deadly force response. The dog didn't even get on him when they opened up. He moved... as a reaction to the dog. There was NO fire discipline in that bunch. Somebody flinched... 'n the rest of 'em flinched in unison. Bunch'a amatures. There was NO justification for that shoot. |
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