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OpenCarry.org - Discussion Forum > Stories From The States > North Carolina > Detained by Raleigh Police department
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| OpenCarry.org - Discussion Forum > Stories From The States > North Carolina > Detained by Raleigh Police department
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no carry permit ? Regular Member
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Sunday night at approximately 11:00pm I was leaving the Arbys on Capital Blvd. after dinning there . I get down to the next light and three police cars light me up. I get my drivers licence out and when the officer steps up I informed him that I'm open carrying on my right hip ( I realize that is not required by law but chose to do so for several reasons). By now there are four cars and they are gathering around. He orders me out of the car , seizes my firearm and puts it in his car. Funny thing my van is in the center lane with two cars to my right and one behind, thus we are shutting down Capital blvd except one lane over an illegal stop. I then demand to know why I'm being detained and they ask if I was at Arbys. I said yes, I ate there and just left. Why did something happen ? No was the answer someone called because you are carrying a gun and we have had a lot of robberies. I said that's why I'm carrying, it's legal to open carry so on what probable cause I'm I being stopped for. We then argue a bit on the legality of what they are doing and I demand a watch commander come to the scene and every one's information. One officer immediately gave me his card but the others didn't. The officer that took my weapon comes back and ask me to unlock my van, I refused. He asked several times if I have any paper work on the gun. I simply kept answering No paper work is required. Then Sgt. SKI arrived and asked what he could do for me. (I almost burst out laughing and felt like saying respect the Constitution of the United States, State law and leave me the hell alone when I'm not violating the law). Instead I informed him that the officers have no reasonable articulately suspicion to detain me and had zero probable cause to make this stop. I would like everyone business card and my gun back to be on my way. He was pleasant, ordered the return of my weapon, but said this isn't the wild west and here in Raleigh we investigate 911 calls. We differed on the legality of the stop, but when I mentioned the issue was resolved by the US Supreme Court in Fla. v JL he then said well I'll tell you what anytime I see someone with a gun I would call 911. He then mentioned all the crap about someone could take your gun away and shoot someone, but had to admit that is normally an officer when it occurs. He then mentioned if an officers gun can get taken away, why couldn't yours. How that is even relevant to the stop I don't know. One of his last statements was thank you for your cooperation, if more people carried we wouldn't have these problems. I found that amusing since we were actually arguing over civil rights violations and I wasn't exactly cooperating. Twice I was told to get on the ground and refused answering, why I'm I being detained for legal conduct. The officer even said sir, I'm asking nicely. I just said, the ground is cold and I'm not getting on the ground. You don't have reasonable articulately suspicion so I sure don't need to get on the ground. My main concern is the officers and even the SGT seem to think that openly carrying a gun is automatically reasonable articulable suspension & probable cause all wrapped up in one. I believe the officers were in the area waiting for me to leave the restaurant to stage a vehicle stop and search my vehicle. I locked it on exiting and refused to unlock it. Obviously someone calling 911 over open carry isn't enough for them to do what they did. I need to ask for help in filing a Freedom of information act request. I have never done one. Additionally anyone that cares to advise what they would put in the complaint to the Chief's office, internal affairs, the North Carolina Attorney General , and the Civil Rights Division of the US Department of Justice please feel free. Officers involved in the stop: CC littlefield # 3242 EE Wegner # 2990 Bk Mccullers Senior officer (no badge number on card) Watch commander: SGT SKI Disclaimer: Any earlier complimentary comments I have made in regard to Raleigh, PD are hereby withdrawn. I now view them as any other anti-gun police department and an enemy of the Right to Open carry. Last edited on Mon Nov 24th, 2008 07:02 am by no carry permit ? |
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marshaul Activist Member 
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I hope you at least pronounce it "articulable".  Sounds like you did OK though. I'll leave the FOIA stuff up to someone with more experience. |
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Doug Huffman Regular Member 
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As "a conservative is a liberal that has been mugged", I wonder if a LEO-basher is one who has been accosted by the cops. |
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DreQo State Researcher 
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Doug Huffman wrote: As "a conservative is a liberal that has been mugged", I wonder if a LEO-basher is one who has been accosted by the cops. I didn't see any bashing here. He very specifically stated that he had previously complimented this specific police department, however he now feels that they no longer deserve that praise, based on this very specific event during which they screwed the pooch. Anyway, to the OP, I would definitely suggest getting a lawyer involved in this. They broke the law, and they need to be held accountable. |
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Doug Huffman Regular Member
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DreQo wrote: Doug Huffman wrote:As "a conservative is a liberal that has been mugged", I wonder if a LEO-basher is one who has been accosted by the cops.I didn't see any bashing here. He very specifically stated that he had previously complimented this specific police department, however he now feels that they no longer deserve that praise, based on this very specific event during which they screwed the pooch. Nor did I. But there is no standard definition of LEO-bashing and no common understanding of it as "harsh criticism". Any but bland sheep-like acceptance is called 'bashing' by the sycophantic apologists. How is your accusation of screwing-the-pooch not harsh criticism? |
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ItsMyRight2Carry Regular Member 
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Maybe you should stop picking his post apart and provide him with the assistance he asked for: "I need to ask for help in filing a Freedom of information act request. I have never done one. Additionally anyone that cares to advise what they would put in the complaint to the Chief's office, internal affairs, the North Carolina Attorney General , and the Civil Rights Division of the US Department of Justice please feel free." I believe the purpose of this site and this forum is to become advocates of OC, answer questions related and OC, and to stick together when unlawful, unconstitutional stops, like this, are committed. We're obviously all here for the purpose of preserving our constitutional right to bear arms, so when something like this happens to one of our members, the last thing we need is for someone to begin criticizing another member. It appears that he has withdrawn any comments that may have been deemed offensive, and directed towards the RPD. I'm sure most of us would have those same feelings had they been placed in the same situation. Let's try to stay on topic and move past this bantering and help a fellow OC'er out... |
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mrbiggles Banned
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Doug Huffman wrote: As "a conservative is a liberal that has been mugged", I wonder if a LEO-basher is one who has been accosted by the cops. Death Wish 1  Last edited on Mon Nov 24th, 2008 09:59 pm by mrbiggles |
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JohnHoliday Regular Member
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Thanks for posting this story, I wish there was something I could do to help. |
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ItsMyRight2Carry Regular Member
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I found this at the Dept of Justice website. It may serve as a reference to you. As for the letter, I would first write up exactly everything that happened, while citing specific statutes for each law the LEO's broke. Once you have it written up, it may be worthwhile to make an appointment with an attorney to let him/her review it. As Dreqo stated, your constitutional rights were violated and laws were broken. The first consultation with most attorneys is free, so it may be worthwhile hearing what he/she has to say... Freedom of Information Act Request Instructions: http://www.usdoj.gov/oip/04_1.html |
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KBCraig Regular Member
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FOI information for North Carolina is summarized here: http://www.nfoic.org/north_carolina The statute: http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_132/GS_132-1.html Chapter 132. Public Records. § 132‑1. "Public records" defined. (a) "Public record" or "public records" shall mean all documents, papers, letters, maps, books, photographs, films, sound recordings, magnetic or other tapes, electronic data‑processing records, artifacts, or other documentary material, regardless of physical form or characteristics, made or received pursuant to law or ordinance in connection with the transaction of public business by any agency of North Carolina government or its subdivisions. Agency of North Carolina government or its subdivisions shall mean and include every public office, public officer or official (State or local, elected or appointed), institution, board, commission, bureau, council, department, authority or other unit of government of the State or of any county, unit, special district or other political subdivision of government. (b) The public records and public information compiled by the agencies of North Carolina government or its subdivisions are the property of the people. Therefore, it is the policy of this State that the people may obtain copies of their public records and public information free or at minimal cost unless otherwise specifically provided by law. As used herein, "minimal cost" shall mean the actual cost of reproducing the public record or public information. (1935, c. 265, s. 1; 1975, c. 787, s. 1; 1995, c. 388, s. 1.) |
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stevemis Regular Member
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You need to get this request in ASAP if you are looking for 911 and/or radio dispatch logs for the event. This information is routinely purged. Here's a site that will help generate the request: http://www.splc.org/foiletter.asp Make sure to be specific regarding what you are looking for. If it were me, I'd want: 1. Any and all records of any emergency or non-emergency telephone conversation concerning the event. 2. Any and all audio dispatch/radio communications from the event. 3. Any and all records from the Dispatch System of the event. 4. Any and all papers or reports, electronic or otherwise, of the event. 5. Any and all MDT (mobile data terminal) messages, sent and received, of the event. You'd probably want to send this to their Public Information Officer. I'd send one copy by fax (save the receipt from the fax machine) and another CMRR (Certified Mail Return Receipt). I've done a lot of open records requests here in NC... feel free to PM if you have any questions. Steve |
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Caveman93 Regular Member 
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No Carry how is this situation progressing? Did you need anything from any of us local folks to help you out more? |
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no carry permit ? Regular Member
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Caveman93 wrote: No Carry how is this situation progressing? Did you need anything from any of us local folks to help you out more? I met with the Internal Affairs Department within 48 hours of the incident and filed a formal taped complaint. They called yesterday ( Tuesday the 2nd of December) and said an investigation has been opened based on my complaint. I have contacted an attorney that specializes in Constitutional law and depending on the outcome of the complaint may seek Judicial review of the matter. If they admit the stop, seizure of myself and firearm were improper and issue a educational bulletin department wide (explaining FLA v. JL , reasonable articulable suspicion, and the legality of open carry- I will extend my complete and full forgiveness and wish everyone involved a Merry Christmas. This matter will close at that time, if they attempt a white wash we will be pursuing damages through the Federal Court system. Once the matter concludes I will have more to say and provide a step by step summery of what occurred. Thank you everyone for your thoughts and help. |
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stevemis Regular Member
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Perhaps if you read this thread (and/or request the original email from the PD) you will feel differently. I distinctly remembered this thread, but was unsure if it originated here or on packing.org (which is no longer). http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=2839&forum_id=41 "NC Law does permit "open carry" in non-restricted places and as such, it is permitted within Raleigh. I would hope our officers are well-informed, but since we have over 740 sworn officers, I will not make that guarantee. I will venture a guess that if you do decide to "open carry", as an agency we will receive numerous calls from citizens and you will have quite a bit of interaction with our officers. Captain Hardy" Note this thread was originated in May of 2007. I say, go get 'em. People remember expensive lessons. |
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DreQo State Researcher
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I agree. I believe you should resist the urge to let things settle and just move on. I know how that feels, but you need to remember that they broke the law. If I could break the law, and just send out an e-mail to my buddies in order to avoid punishment, I'd do it all the time. You need to pursue legal action. Good luck in whatever you do. |
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no carry permit ? Regular Member
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stevemis wrote: Perhaps if you read this thread (and/or request the original email from the PD) you will feel differently. I distinctly remembered this thread, but was unsure if it originated here or on packing.org (which is no longer). Amazing way back in May of 2007 the department was admitting that they have lousy training systems in place. You guys may be right, perhaps they need a lawsuit. Thanks for the info. |
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ItsMyRight2Carry Regular Member
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"I would hope our officers are well-informed, but since we have over 740 sworn officers, I will not make that guarantee." The captain's never heard of emailing the 740 officers a reminder? Raleigh's PD, Fire and EMS system house a state of the art "model" computerized communications center that doesn't even require a human's voice to communicate where emergencies are across the county. I know for a fact that each and every county employee associated with law enforcement, EMS and Fire ALL have wake county.gov email addresses. But then again, what am I thinking, taking 10 minutes to send out an email to remind officers of certain laws would make too much sense. |
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stevemis Regular Member
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Sue them. After you've won or settled, invest a couple of bucks in a nice Desert Eagle for open carry. Preferably chrome or gold plated. You'll also want a nice leather holster and a chiropractor on retainer... |
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Dragon88 Regular Member
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Sucks you have to deal with the legal system, but I'm glad your fighting this one. I think the police need to be reminded of our 2nd Amendment rights now and then. |
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SPRINGFIELD_45_ACP Regular Member 
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I would not back until they admit the ordeal was un-justified or settle with a hefty compensation package along with a lengthy lesson on OPEN CARRY... |
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stevemis Regular Member
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I OC'd there last night, with my Dan Wesson Commander Bobtail (1911). There were about 4 employees there. One was a 40-ish blonde skinny lady... she was probably the manager (different shirt) and was counting the cash drawer after I sat down. She kind of gave me a dirty look as I walked in. The other was a really nice fellow who just moved from Texas to go to the Baptist Seminary. We chatted about guns for a good while... he had to sell his guns in order to live in the Seminary housing, and he and his wife are looking to move off site and replace their toys. He's 30 and was an armorer in the military and knew all about 1911's and M9's. He also has his TX CHP and we talked about what was involved in getting one here. Overall it was a nice experience, but I could certainly see the manager lady wasn't too thrilled about me being there. This was the Arby's on Capital just South of 540, across the street from Circuit City and Best Buy, K-Mart, etc. Last edited on Fri Dec 5th, 2008 12:57 pm by stevemis |
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ga_repoman Regular Member 
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stevemis wrote: Sue them. After you've won or settled, invest a couple of bucks in a nice Desert Eagle for open carry. Preferably chrome or gold plated. You'll also want a nice leather holster and a chiropractor on retainerwhile you think you are joking I have a friend of mine back in the day ...when we both 1st got our ccw in georgia wonder why he got all sorts of looks even carring concealed..(like that was possible) Picture this if you will 5ft 140# dude with a pretty good build carring a chrome 50 cal desert eagle in a vertical shoulder rig..(nope i wouldn't stare) the gun was as big as he was (we all told him he had a napoleon complex) |
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no carry permit ? Regular Member
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stevemis wrote: I OC'd there last night, with my Dan Wesson Commander Bobtail (1911). There were about 4 employees there. One was a 40-ish blonde skinny lady... she was probably the manager (different shirt) and was counting the cash drawer after I sat down. She kind of gave me a dirty look as I walked in. The other was a really nice fellow who just moved from Texas to go to the Baptist Seminary. We chatted about guns for a good while... he had to sell his guns in order to live in the Seminary housing, and he and his wife are looking to move off site and replace their toys. He's 30 and was an armorer in the military and knew all about 1911's and M9's. He also has his TX CHP and we talked about what was involved in getting one here.That's the one, and the manager that called on me. I think she is just an anti-gunner that called 911 to screw with me. The police stopped me one light down from Arby's. Glad she didn't call on you. I have complained to managment as I believe she was just using the police to harass. |
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stevemis Regular Member
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Gotcha. I suspect the only reason she didn't freak out is because the other employee and I engaged in a good, long conversation. I suspect, without him around, things would have turned out differently. |
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Custodian Regular Member 
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What the heck are they teaching in these Police Academies? |
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no carry permit ? Regular Member
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Custodian wrote: What the heck are they teaching in these Police Academies? Well after sitting down with an Lieutenant, Sgt and a roadside detention involving 5 officers and a watch commander I would suggest training needs much improvement. They really don't have a clue what reasonable articulable suspicion is, are ignorant of what the Supreme Court said in FLA. v JL , AND BELIEVE THEY CAN MAKE UP THEIR OWN LAWS. They just assume citizens will not know their rights or will be easily intimidated. |
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NCHornet Regular Member
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I would sure like to get a update on what is going on in this case. NCH |
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no carry permit ? Regular Member
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Letter from Raleigh Internal Affairs unit informing me of the Formal investigation they have started. I have selected an attorney specializing in Constitutional law and will be litigating the matter if the police department refuses to correct itself from within. That is what Judicial review is for, and I promise you they will get just that if they don't correct the officers involved and issue a training bulletin department wide. I will keep you advised as things progress. |
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JohnHoliday Regular Member
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Thanks for the update. |
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JohnHoliday Regular Member
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Any updates on this? Thanks! |
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mrmagooo13 Regular Member 
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Does anyone have a real definition of what "reasonable articulable suspicion" is? I have the general idea, but just curious if there's a black and white explanation. Thanks. |
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no carry permit ? Regular Member
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JohnHoliday wrote: Any updates on this?Nothing as of yet. I'm still open carrying EVERYDAY and have had no other problems since the original incident. The attorney I have spoken with was really shocked that this occurred. |
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Decoligny Regular Member 
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Last edited on Thu Feb 12th, 2009 09:13 pm by Decoligny |
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Johnston-Wake COPTF Regular Member
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The Bill Proposal has been posted. Go to: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum41/21971.html for the discussion. Go to: http://www.ncopc.org/site/2009/campaigns.html for the Bill Proposal. |
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glockaholic Regular Member 
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I'm curious if you have an update on this? Is the investigation still ongoing? What the officers did was clearly WAY out of line. |
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1918A2 Regular Member
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This is one more indicator that Raleigh has become just another East Coast City, populated by refugees from that clavern of Ghetto Wrap above the Mason Dixon. Hiring more local cops would go a long way. However, when the city council, and that spineless lawn creeper, winner of the Herman Goring Lookalike contest Charles Meeker, and his comical sidekick Jim West, keep relying on their manager to hire the most liberal diconnected nut bags for chief, what do you expect? AMF |
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dexcop Regular Member 
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No carry permit! First of all if I stopped you and you had That kind of an attitude ,I would give you a very hard time. I am A retired trooper . Have you ever had a knife in your face or a shotgun pointed at you and the perp is serious. It's scary. These officers recieved a complaint from some sheeple that didn't know how to behave because the govt. wasn't holding their hand. They were doing the job you pay them to do. When you come up with an attitude, they are going to respond. Let me suggest to you that if it happens again, your best option is Yes sir , no sir , thank you sir. You will see that all will go smoothly, and you will be on your way. |
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Caveman93 Regular Member
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dexcop wrote: No carry permit! First of all if I stopped you and you had That kind of an attitude ,I would give you a very hard time. I am A retired trooper . Have you ever had a knife in your face or a shotgun pointed at you and the perp is serious. It's scary. These officers recieved a complaint from some sheeple that didn't know how to behave because the govt. wasn't holding their hand. They were doing the job you pay them to do. When you come up with an attitude, they are going to respond. Let me suggest to you that if it happens again, your best option is Yes sir , no sir , thank you sir. You will see that all will go smoothly, and you will be on your way. I'm sorry but did I miss the examples in this post about No Carry Permit's poor attitude? Please enlighten us. I think all he did was ask why he was being detained. Please cite the example(s) on this post where he had a bad or ill attitude other than changing his opinion about the RPD after this incident. Thank you sir.  |
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no carry permit ? Regular Member
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Problem with the site is corrupting post when I spell check, I will repost once this problem is corrected. Last edited on Sun Jun 14th, 2009 02:53 pm by no carry permit ? |
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Rattrapper Regular Member
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dexcop wrote: No carry permit! First of all if I stopped you and you had That kind of an attitude ,I would give you a very hard time. I am A retired trooper . Have you ever had a knife in your face or a shotgun pointed at you and the perp is serious. It's scary. These officers recieved a complaint from some sheeple that didn't know how to behave because the govt. wasn't holding their hand. They were doing the job you pay them to do. When you come up with an attitude, they are going to respond. Let me suggest to you that if it happens again, your best option is Yes sir , no sir , thank you sir. You will see that all will go smoothly, and you will be on your way. This is the typical Excuse for every JACK BOOTED THUG! That is the THEM AND US MENTALITY, We FIRST must be able to ARTICULATE WHY the party was stopped. And WE BEST MAKE DAMN SURE THAT WE HAVE A LEGAL REASON TO DO SO, NOT A FISHING TRIP. As you are retired you no longer have to care. But remember you are now just a citizen like the rest of us. OH! I get it, you now FLASH that RETIRED BADGE WHEN YOU ASK FOR CONSIDERATION! |
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GoldCoaster Regular Member 
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dexcop wrote: No carry permit! First of all if I stopped you and you had That kind of an attitude ,I would give you a very hard time. I am A retired trooper . Have you ever had a knife in your face or a shotgun pointed at you and the perp is serious. It's scary. These officers recieved a complaint from some sheeple that didn't know how to behave because the govt. wasn't holding their hand. They were doing the job you pay them to do. When you come up with an attitude, they are going to respond. Let me suggest to you that if it happens again, your best option is Yes sir , no sir , thank you sir. You will see that all will go smoothly, and you will be on your way. I'm sure everyone in NC is breathing a sigh of relief that you are retired. |
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Fallschirmjäger Regular Member
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GoldCoaster wrote: dexcop wrote:Heck, I'm in Georgia and breathing a sigh of releif, GC.No carry permit! First of all if I stopped you and you had That kind of an attitude ,I would give you a very hard time. I am A retired trooper . Have you ever had a knife in your face or a shotgun pointed at you and the perp is serious. It's scary. These officers recieved a complaint from some sheeple that didn't know how to behave because the govt. wasn't holding their hand. They were doing the job you pay them to do. When you come up with an attitude, they are going to respond. Let me suggest to you that if it happens again, your best option is Yes sir , no sir , thank you sir. You will see that all will go smoothly, and you will be on your way. |
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ghostrider Regular Member 
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dexcop wrote: No carry permit! First of all if I stopped you and you had That kind of an attitude ,I would give you a very hard time. I am A retired trooper . Have you ever had a knife in your face or a shotgun pointed at you and the perp is serious. It's scary. These officers recieved a complaint from some sheeple that didn't know how to behave because the govt. wasn't holding their hand. They were doing the job you pay them to do. When you come up with an attitude, they are going to respond. Let me suggest to you that if it happens again, your best option is Yes sir , no sir , thank you sir. You will see that all will go smoothly, and you will be on your way. When I was a kid, I remember my dad getting pulled over for something or the other, and the officer referred to him as "sir". Too many officers don't understand this. You should be referring to us as "sir", not visa versa. |
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Mailman Regular Member 
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ghostrider wrote: dexcop wrote:No carry permit! First of all if I stopped you and you had That kind of an attitude ,I would give you a very hard time. I am A retired trooper . Have you ever had a knife in your face or a shotgun pointed at you and the perp is serious. It's scary. These officers recieved a complaint from some sheeple that didn't know how to behave because the govt. wasn't holding their hand. They were doing the job you pay them to do. When you come up with an attitude, they are going to respond. Let me suggest to you that if it happens again, your best option is Yes sir , no sir , thank you sir. You will see that all will go smoothly, and you will be on your way. Agree with you 100% ghostrider. They somehow have forgotten what it means to be a PEACE officer. They also have forgotten where their paycheck comes from. It is not their Chief or Sheriff, it is from all of us tax paying citizens. He was very restrained for being illegally detained and having his property temporarily confiscated. DEXCOP -- His asking why he was being detained is not "attitude". It was a very legitimate question for the officers. Why wait for him to leave the restaurant? Why not approach him in the restaurant and determine he was not a threat with a quick talk to the manager and him at the same time? Waiting for him to leave the parking lot with the potential for a high speed chase (if he was a BG) doesn't seem prudent to me. Just interjecting my 2 cents into the conversation and IANAL as you can see from my handle. |
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