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OpenCarry.org - Discussion Forum > Stories From The States > Florida > If you're pulled over for a traffic stop...
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| OpenCarry.org - Discussion Forum > Stories From The States > Florida > If you're pulled over for a traffic stop...
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FloridaRob33 Regular Member
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Hello. I am looking into obtaining a concealed weapons permit and selecting a weapon for defense, and I had a question. If you're pulled over for a traffic stop and you have a concealed weapons permit, how do you handle the situation? Do you inform the officer you have a weapon, or only if he asks? |
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Hotshot718 Regular Member 
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There is no duty to inform, but if the officer asks, I usually tell him. Informing has gotten me outta 2 tickets thus far; one because he was in love with the gun and we lost track of time chatting, the other because the newbie was so nervous he called another car plus his supervisor and forgot all about me speeding.  |
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steve33904 Regular Member
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most police would be very grateful if you had your carry license and drivers license in hand and said "I am licensed and carring a weapon. What would you like me to do?" |
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Decoligny Regular Member 
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steve33904 wrote: most police would be very grateful if you had your carry license and drivers license in hand and said And most police would be very grateful if you had your carry license and drivers license in hand and said "I am licensed and carring a weapon. What would you like me to do? And by the way feel free to search the entire vehicle, the trunk, and here's my home address and my front door key, you are welcome to search my whole house too." If you are not required by law to do something, then don't do it. You are simply adding things into the mix that are irrelevent to the reason you were pulled over, and opening yourself up to possible overreaction/abuse of authority by any rookie who doesn't know any better, or by any cop who wants a reason to hassle you. |
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suntzu Regular Member 
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In my class I was told that if the officer does not ask whether you are carrying a firearm--don't disclose it if it--because where I live we are not required to inform the officer we are armed unless and until they specifically ask. The reason being--my instructor made the statement that most LEOs are jittery, and most new rookies are really just a bunch of *** holes who don't know the laws they are supposed to be upholding anyway, so disclosing that you are armed is only going to create a problem where one might not ordinarily exist for you. So bottom line for me--if they don't specifically ask me whether I am armed, I certainly am not going to disclose it to them. If they ask to search my car my answer will be a polite, but firm NO, because if they have to ask--they have no business searching to begin with. And once the traffic stop is over--DON'T chit chat with the police--they are only fishing trying to find something to get you on. So once it is over--ask if you can depart, and then promptly depart without commenting further on anything. If they insist on broadening the questions to areas not concerned with the primary reason for the stop--STOP talking--simply SHUT UP and tell them you are not going to answer any more of their questions not originally related to the stop and then if they begin insisting--demand to speak with a shift supervisor immediately, but above all--ANSWER NO QUESTIONS--this is what we were told in my class. Because anything you say will be used against you--and if you think they care about you--you're wrong. Now all of this advice came from a LEO--surprising enough I know. |
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WVCDL State Researcher 
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In the 3 years I have been carrying, I have been pulled over once and described that encounter here. Whether you should disclose when not required by law largely depends on your desire for a break from a ticket (as was my case) and your immediate perception of the officer's attitude. In my case, I needed a break, perceived the officer as being on even keel, chose to disclose, and wound up with a big break on my ticket without asking or suggesting anything. All police officers are (or should be) instructed to presume a person armed unless and until searched and found otherwise. In Florida, any adult not prohibited by law from possessing firearms may carry a gun in, among other places, a car's glove box or center console without a license. Thus, weapons in vehicles should not be a surprise. However, if you have a CWL and inform the officer, you will generally put him at some ease that you are a "good guy" and that will greatly increase your chances of a better outcome than you could have otherwise received. That does not mean you need to engage in any extraneous conversations or admit to even the alleged traffic violation that triggered the stop. |
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Todd Hardy Regular Member 
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Hi Rob, I'm new on here too but I will also tell you what my CCW intstructor told us, which is, do not disclose the information unless directly asked. It could very well cause more problems than it's worth. Kind of like the "what you don't know, won't hurt you" adage. That said, there is always the exception to the rule as WVCDL stated above. My $0.02 is don't disclose unless asked. -Todd |
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FloridaRob33 Regular Member
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Thanks for the replies guys. |
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mbpe912 Regular Member
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First off I am a LEO with a very large agency in the TAMPA bay area. If you want to get a gun in your face and get prone out a knee in your neck don't tell me and let it catch me by surprise. Now if you tell me I am aware of it and the respect you have just show for me will most likely lead me to let you go with out a ticket. Why not tell me? If it was you in my shoes Wouldn't you want to know? |
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Todd Hardy Regular Member
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Hey mbpe, welcome to the board! To answer your question, no, I wouldn't want to know. It doesn't affect me one way or the other if I were in your shoes. We're talking about law-abiding citizens in this post, not criminals. That's also what we're trying to promote with open carry; firearms are commonplace. Nothing to be alarmed about. So again, no, I wouldn't want to know about a legally concealed firearm anymore than I'd care to know about if you had a cell phone, pocketknife, or pink underwear. I wouldn't see the relevance and could almost take it as a threat. But we're obviously different on that point so if you ever pull over a guy and his license says Todd Hardy, ask if he has a legally concealed firearm on him. Having a gun pointed in my face and being made to lie out prone for doing NOTHING illegal would be a big-time civil rights issue and you know how these scuzbag juries are in central Florida.Regardless, like I said, welcome to the board; good to have you! |
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mbpe912 Regular Member
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That is why I pay my PBA dues. You should really go do a ride a long with an agency like TPD. Then you can see it from our shoes. I have done the above before to someone who didn't tell me. I am not worried about being sued. I AM WORRIED ABOUT GOING HOME. A law abiding citizen should have no reason to hide or not give me the curtsey of knowing you are armed. If you don't tell me about it and I see it I THINK YOU ARE HIDING it. I Would take you on a ride myself but due to my current assignment my unit doesn't allow for non certified law enforcement Officers to ride with me. |
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Todd Hardy Regular Member
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I can see your point. If they are too stupid to properly conceal it, they could quite possibly be carrying it illegally; in which case, you should worry. I pocket carry so no one would ever be able to see it. Either way, you see my name, ask cause I ain't volunteering. Deal?  |
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mbpe912 Regular Member
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Hey thats it fine don't tell me but I can tell you this I look at people with a CCW as part of the family and let them slide with a warning. So don't be pissed when I explain the three options to you. |
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Todd Hardy Regular Member
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I wish they all looked at it that way. And deal, no complaining.  |
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smoking357 Banned 
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Huh? Am I reading this correctly? You would cause a citizen to have a boot on his neck, forced to lie prostrate, while having lethal force pointed at his head for lawfully carrying an item that is a citizen's right to carry, simply because he didn't tell you about it? There are a substantial amount of people for whom the above violence would be fatal, and a knee to the neck is an efficient execution method. What you say you perform was conducted in a Soviet gulag. Did I misread? mbpe912 wrote: First off I am a LEO with a very large agency in the TAMPA bay area. If you want to get a gun in your face and get prone out a knee in your neck don't tell me and let it catch me by surprise. Now if you tell me I am aware of it and the respect you have just show for me will most likely lead me to let you go with out a ticket. Why not tell me? If it was you in my shoes Wouldn't you want to know? |
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mbpe912 Regular Member
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Well yes you did, concealed means just that and if I see it then it is not concealed now is it? If you didn't tell me about it I now think you are trying to hide it from me. Which means I am not taking a chance and will get you out at gun point and have you prone out for my safety. So either make dam sure you don't print or that your shirt doesn't ride up and expose your gun. If you have a valid permit then you should have no problem telling me you have a gun what are you hiding? It is just the right thing to do, I have a family and want to go home tonight. If it means making you uncomfortable in the mean time I am sorry! However you better believe I am going home tonight! I do not an most officers will not ask to see your gun or run the serial number or any of that crap. To be honest I want your hands no where near the gun. |
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smoking357 Banned
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"What am I hiding?" Wrong attitude for a servant. Your correct attitude is "where does the government get off peering into people's lives?" The primary purpose of government, and thus your primary purpose, is to preserve Liberty. This is more important to you than "going home at night." Further, a citizen is far more concerned with his Liberty than with you "going home at night," and since you serve Liberty, first, you're forced to agree, don't you? "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men..." - Declaration of Independence The "right thing to do" is for you to intrude on a citizen's life as little as possible and to act as a servant. If "going home at night" is more important to you than preserving Liberty above all else, then you need to find another job. A citizen has no obligation to make you feel safe, indeed, we are freer if the government's armed agents fear the public. "I am not taking a chance and will get you out at gun point and have you prone out for my safety." What you describe as "your safety" horribly violates Liberty and your subservient role, necessitating some manner of response. If you've ever pointed a gun at citizen who did not have one pointed at you, you are no better than the worst thugs of the worst governments. You could have served in the Khmer Rouge. Wow, what a scary country we have become. You are the reason why the People must always keep their inalienable right to keep and bear arms. Lastly, what does this mean? "So either make dam sure you don't print..." I presume you're not taking offense to one's preference of penmanship. mbpe912 wrote: Well yes you did, concealed means just that and if I see it then it is not concealed now is it? If you didn't tell me about it I now think you are trying to hide it from me. Which means I am not taking a chance and will get you out at gun point and have you prone out for my safety. So either make dam sure you don't print or that your shirt doesn't ride up and expose your gun. If you have a valid permit then you should have no problem telling me you have a gun what are you hiding? It is just the right thing to do, I have a family and want to go home tonight. If it means making you uncomfortable in the mean time I am sorry! However you better believe I am going home tonight! I do not an most officers will not ask to see your gun or run the serial number or any of that crap. To be honest I want your hands no where near the gun. |
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SGT Jensen State Researcher 
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mbpe912 wrote: First off I am a LEO with a very large agency in the TAMPA bay area. If you want to get a gun in your face and get prone out a knee in your neck don't tell me and let it catch me by surprise. Now if you tell me I am aware of it and the respect you have just show for me will most likely lead me to let you go with out a ticket. Why not tell me? If it was you in my shoes Wouldn't you want to know? That is why I pay my PBA dues. You should really go do a ride a long with an agency like TPD. Then you can see it from our shoes. I have done the above before to someone who didn't tell me. I am not worried about being sued. I AM WORRIED ABOUT GOING HOME. A law abiding citizen should have no reason to hide or not give me the curtsey of knowing you are armed. If you don't tell me about it and I see it I THINK YOU ARE HIDING it. I Would take you on a ride myself but due to my current assignment my unit doesn't allow for non certified law enforcement Officers to ride with me.
QFT. You, sir, are a dangerous man. |
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mbpe912 Regular Member
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What are you hiding? That is a great question, If you keep it concealed which Florida law requires then you have no problem. You can bitch and moan all you want, I do fear the people every time I make a traffic stop. Because I never know if you are a law abiding citizen or just killed you ex wife! Now I have never had the problem of seeing a concealed weapon this far thank God. Trust me I am all for the 2nd amendment as well as the ability to carry. I personally prefer concealed carry, but think you should be able to choose to OC. I did have someone who had a securely incases firearm in there glove box and they went for the info in the glove box. They didn't notify me that they had a gun. I saw it and was a little surprised pulled my gun told them to freeze and had them come out the car. I explained later why I had done what I did. The gentlemen was very sorry and totally understand and thanked me for not shooting him. I am not a trigger happy person to be honest. So yes I may seem ruff to some of you. But then some of you think the Feds are personally trying to destroy you. I to am a fan of limited government. However I have to do the job I was hired to do and the law allows me to temporarily detain you for a great number of reasons. The law also protects you with a clause that says it must be a reasonable amount of time. So me stopping you for speed can't take and hour and a half if I find nothing other than the traffic violation. I think you guys mistook my words as I want to catch you or want to put a knee in your neck! This is not the case at all I am always trying to better the relationship between the citizens and the Police. We need your help you are the eyes in the community. If you knew half of what goes on you would be totally amazed. I hope everyone has a great new year. |
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smoking357 Banned
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?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! mbpe912 wrote: Now I have never had the problem of seeing a concealed weapon this far thank God. |
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sprat Regular Member 
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LEO229 is back and moved to Tampa, please don't post here like you have me pulled over on the side of the road we as honest citizens want you to uphold the law and we want you to go home at night some of the things you posted make me wonder/ponder, this is why we have cop bashers on this site sprat |
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ickthus Regular Member
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I have been stopped driving twice, and both times handed my CCW with my DL the LEO. For me i have just put the LEO on notice that i am the good guy and there is no probable cause for anything other than why he stopped me . For some reason he felt the same way and forgot why he stopped me. if you can prove your a good guy ( most CCW permits do just that ) why not ? if you get stopped by Barney Fife what better way to nip it in the bud. nothing to see here folkes |
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mbpe912 Regular Member
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ickthus wrote: I have been stopped driving twice, and both times handed my CCW with my DL the LEO. For me i have just put the LEO on notice that i am the good guy and there is no probable cause for anything other than why he stopped me . For some reason he felt the same way and forgot why he stopped me. if you can prove your a good guy ( most CCW permits do just that ) why not ? if you get stopped by Barney Fife what better way to nip it in the bud. nothing to see here folkes Couldn't agree more!!!! |
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mbpe912 Regular Member
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I think we got off on the wrong foot. First let me explain that the area I work are not know to be the area law abiding citizen go or want to go. Most in the area I work couldn't get a CCW. I general work a very bad area and due to my assignment do not wear a uniform or drive a marked car. The area I work a white person could not safely drive through unless they are the police and we ride at least two officers in a car sometimes three. We are a little ruff because we have to be to survive. I was a little over zealous starting out and apologize for that. I had just come off shift and had been involved in a big fight where two people resisted arrest. I am all for lawful ownership of any gun and love the fact that you have the ability to carry. I just like to know. Because I deal with drug dealers and thugs all day I am use to them and react to most things like I am dealing with them. It becomes repetitive for me. I can't really say to much more about what agency, unit or area I work for due to my assignment. I think I could use a week going to Bellair and working there, to relax but then again I would be bored out of mine. I think it is about time for a vacation. Have a good night! |
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Todd Hardy Regular Member
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Gotta be somewhere close to Nebraska Ave. |
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Gunslinger Regular Member 
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mbpe912 wrote: Well yes you did, concealed means just that and if I see it then it is not concealed now is it? If you didn't tell me about it I now think you are trying to hide it from me. Which means I am not taking a chance and will get you out at gun point and have you prone out for my safety. So either make dam sure you don't print or that your shirt doesn't ride up and expose your gun. If you have a valid permit then you should have no problem telling me you have a gun what are you hiding? It is just the right thing to do, I have a family and want to go home tonight. If it means making you uncomfortable in the mean time I am sorry! However you better believe I am going home tonight! I do not an most officers will not ask to see your gun or run the serial number or any of that crap. To be honest I want your hands no where near the gun. Let me get this straight, and if I'm missing something please say so. If you see--res ipsa loquitur--a non-concealed firearm in a state which allows open carry, you're going to commit false arrest, battery and possibly aggravated assault--under 42 and 18 USC, because the individual didn't tell you he had a gun when he had no clear duty to do so? If you harm the individual it will be you going to jail. If your gun "accidently" goes off and kills him, under Federal Law while doing so in violation of his civil rights under color of authority, you will face the death penalty. And your badge gives you zero immunity in Federal Court. Or did I miss something? Perhaps they don't recognize the Bill of Rights in Tampa. Or model their police training after the NKVD. Just because you wear a badge doesn't make you above the law. You claim to want "courtesy" from the public you supposedly took an oath to "protect and serve," but you have no problem in acting like a Storm Trooper. 18 USC Sec 242 and 42 USC Sec 1983 provides that: Whoever, under color of any law, statute, ordinance, regulation or custom, willfully subjects any person in any State, Territory, or District to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution or laws of the United States,... shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both; 42 USC Sec 1983 further provides that a violator shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress. Last edited on Wed Jan 7th, 2009 09:04 pm by Gunslinger |
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Gunslinger Regular Member
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mbpe912 wrote: I think we got off on the wrong foot. First let me explain that the area I work are not know to be the area law abiding citizen go or want to go. Most in the area I work couldn't get a CCW. I general work a very bad area and due to my assignment do not wear a uniform or drive a marked car. The area I work a white person could not safely drive through unless they are the police and we ride at least two officers in a car sometimes three. We are a little ruff because we have to be to survive. I was a little over zealous starting out and apologize for that. I had just come off shift and had been involved in a big fight where two people resisted arrest. I am all for lawful ownership of any gun and love the fact that you have the ability to carry. I just like to know. Because I deal with drug dealers and thugs all day I am use to them and react to most things like I am dealing with them. It becomes repetitive for me. I can't really say to much more about what agency, unit or area I work for due to my assignment. I think I could use a week going to Bellair and working there, to relax but then again I would be bored out of mine. I think it is about time for a vacation. Have a good night! Ok, I withdraw a bit of my harsh response to your first post. I can understand working in a @#$% hole part of town makes you take more basic survival tools. Still, although dealing with scumbags probably wouldn't let it happen, what I said about Federal Law and rights deprivation under color of authority still applies. Don't become so jaded you lose the distinction between a pos and someone maybe in the wrong place at the wrong time who is lawfully carrying a weapon for his own protection just because of where he finds himself. Be safe. |
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Thundar Regular Member 
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mbpe912 wrote: First off I am a LEO with a very large agency in the TAMPA bay area. If you want to get a gun in your face and get prone out a knee in your neck don't tell me and let it catch me by surprise. Now if you tell me I am aware of it and the respect you have just show for me will most likely lead me to let you go with out a ticket. Why not tell me? If it was you in my shoes Wouldn't you want to know? Wow, Do they put something in the water in Florida that you think that sort of behavior is acceptable? If I were in your shoes I would have a lot more respect for the law. Wait I do anyways. Thundar |
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vermonter Regular Member 
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Mbpe912 would not last a week on any Vermont police force. Not because it is "bad" up here, but b/c here in Vermont the police MUST respect the LAW ABIDING citizens rights. Here if you declare that you are carrying (out of respect), the officer will run your DL for Felonies/PFA, and if you are clean the subject of the firearm is a moot point. I realize that in Tampa there is a lot of gang activity, but come on Mr. Officer you mean to tell me with all your experience that you cannot smell the stink of a gangbanger the minute you pull him over? I am a white guy, I wear polo shirts, I drive a Lumina, my hair is short and I don't have tatoos. I also have a decent command of English and 3 CCW's. You mean to tell me that if I don't inform, you are going to make me "eat pavement"? Last time I looked there was no duty to inform in FL just like Vermont! Now I always inform and expect the same courtesy from you that I give. I don't think that sould get me out of a ticket like some other posters here do since you are doing your job and I am in the wrong. But one thing I learned in my travels, research and from talking to many people, Florida police generally are big bullies who throw thier weight around b/c the courts let them. Come on now Mr. Policeman handcuffing 8 year olds for fighting on the playground? In Vermont you would be out of a job the next day PBA/FOP or not! I am sorry but certain states attract bully cops b/c the law allows them to operare freelance and cover up their actions. Florida, Texas, Lousiana, New Jersey, Massachusetts, California, Virginia, Ohio all come to mind. Why don't you try a ride along in Vermont, Minnesota, Indiana, Montana, Oregon or Washington and see what fair police are like! That attitude is absolute BS. If you are Mr. PO in a state that requires disclosure and the stop does not, then by all means do what you need to do. Don't inject your personal feelings into a stituation, and interpet the law your way so you can excercise your "power" at random! Berfore you even attempt to flame me I was "on the job" for 2 years in a major city. One of the reasons I left is b/c I didn't like what I saw in my "peers". You number one goal as Mr. Police Officer should be protecting the civil rights of EVERY LAW ABIDING CITIZEN! Do what you want to the "scumbags", but someone back-talking you is not a scumbag. It's called freedom of speech. Let him ramble, drop the ticket in his lap and walk away. Once you think you are so important that no one dare question your perceived authority (verbally) you are then part of the coming "police state", and you know exactly what I am talking about! The traffic stop is the best tool in the world.... For finding the REAL dangerous people who would shoot you just as soon as look at you. Don't get so caught up in "everyone is a bad guy" b/c you chose to work in Tampa that you loose sight of reality. I knew some guys who would set up their own mother if it meant a collar. I respect the job you are doing, I just don't approve of the method applied by many of your colleagues. The whole thing smacks of Nazi Germany..... Papers please! Chew on this: http://www.lewrockwell.com/roberts/roberts224.html You would not like this decision either: http://libraries.vermont.gov/sites/libraries/files/supct/current/op2007-100.html Last edited on Thu Jan 8th, 2009 01:49 am by vermonter |
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cvickers Regular Member 
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vermonter wrote: Mbpe912 would not last a week on any Vermont police force. Not because it is "bad" up here, but b/c here in Vermont the police MUST respect the LAW ABIDING citizens rights. Here if you declare that you are carrying (out of respect), the officer will run your DL for Felonies/PFA, and if you are clean the subject of the firearm is a moot point. I realize that in Tampa there is a lot of gang activity, but come on Mr. Officer you mean to tell me with all your experience that you cannot smell the stink of a gangbanger the minute you pull him over? I am a white guy, I wear polo shirts, I drive a Lumina, my hair is short and I don't have tatoos. I also have a decent command of English and 3 CCW's. You mean to tell me that if I don't inform, you are going to make me "eat pavement"? Last time I looked there was no duty to inform in FL just like Vermont! Now I always inform and expect the same courtesy from you that I give. I don't think that sould get me out of a ticket like some other posters here do since you are doing your job and I am in the wrong. But one thing I learned in my travels, research and from talking to many people, Florida police generally are big bullies who throw thier weight around b/c the courts let them. Come on now Mr. Policeman handcuffing 8 year olds for fighting on the playground? In Vermont you would be out of a job the next day PBA/FOP or not! I am sorry but certain states attract bully cops b/c the law allows them to operare freelance and cover up their actions. Florida, Texas, Lousiana, New Jersey, Massachusetts, California, Virginia, Ohio all come to mind. Why don't you try a ride along in Vermont, Minnesota, Indiana, Montana, Oregon or Washington and see what fair police are like! That attitude is absolute BS. If you are Mr. PO in a state that requires disclosure and the stop does not, then by all means do what you need to do. Don't inject your personal feelings into a stituation, and interpet the law your way so you can excercise your "power" at random! Berfore you even attempt to flame me I was "on the job" for 2 years in a major city. One of the reasons I left is b/c I didn't like what I saw in my "peers". You number one goal as Mr. Police Officer should be protecting the civil rights of EVERY LAW ABIDING CITIZEN! Do what you want to the "scumbags", but someone back-talking you is not a scumbag. It's called freedom of speech. Let him ramble, drop the ticket in his lap and walk away. Once you think you are so important that no one dare question your perceived authority (verbally) you are then part of the coming "police state", and you know exactly what I am talking about! The traffic stop is the best tool in the world.... For finding the REAL dangerous people who would shoot you just as soon as look at you. Don't get so caught up in "everyone is a bad guy" b/c you chose to work in Tampa that you loose sight of reality. I knew some guys who would set up their own mother if it meant a collar. I respect the job you are doing, I just don't approve of the method applied by many of your colleagues. |
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Decoligny Regular Member
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Gunslinger wrote: mbpe912 wrote:Well yes you did, concealed means just that and if I see it then it is not concealed now is it? If you didn't tell me about it I now think you are trying to hide it from me. Which means I am not taking a chance and will get you out at gun point and have you prone out for my safety. So either make dam sure you don't print or that your shirt doesn't ride up and expose your gun. If you have a valid permit then you should have no problem telling me you have a gun what are you hiding? It is just the right thing to do, I have a family and want to go home tonight. If it means making you uncomfortable in the mean time I am sorry! However you better believe I am going home tonight! I do not an most officers will not ask to see your gun or run the serial number or any of that crap. To be honest I want your hands no where near the gun. Since this is in the Florida forum, I would assume he was talking about Florida, and Florida is one of the 6 NO OPEN CARRY states. |
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Citizen Founder's Club Member
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Ahhhh. It warms the heart of this ardent pro-rights citizen to see so many attacking vigorously. I'll just chip in one little thought that I didn't come across while scanning the thread. Its in regard to his, "What do you have to hide" question. The 4th and 5th Amendment were and are intended to protect the innocent, meaning those WITH NOTHING TO HIDE. Meaning they are there particularly and specifically for use by those with nothing to hide. We're not stupid, sir. We know all about how some police automatically seize lawfully carried handguns rather than use judgement about whether the person is giving some indication of dangerousness--a willful and knowing suspension of judgement if one asks me. And, we know all about how police, having automatically seized a lawfully carried firearm then run the serial number to see if it was stolen. And we know all about how some police are anti-gun and like to criticize and lecture law-abiding, gun carrying citizens. No, thank you. I think I'll just keep right on omitting to disclose whether I'm armed. |
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Gunslinger Regular Member
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Decoligny wrote: Gunslinger wrote:mbpe912 wrote:Well yes you did, concealed means just that and if I see it then it is not concealed now is it? If you didn't tell me about it I now think you are trying to hide it from me. Which means I am not taking a chance and will get you out at gun point and have you prone out for my safety. So either make dam sure you don't print or that your shirt doesn't ride up and expose your gun. If you have a valid permit then you should have no problem telling me you have a gun what are you hiding? It is just the right thing to do, I have a family and want to go home tonight. If it means making you uncomfortable in the mean time I am sorry! However you better believe I am going home tonight! I do not an most officers will not ask to see your gun or run the serial number or any of that crap. To be honest I want your hands no where near the gun. Evidently I am incorrect about lawful carry in a vehicle to the extent it must not be readily available. I have read case law that says glovebox, loaded, is ok in FL, but that doesn't apply in the instant case and I don't know what the final adjudication of inferior court cases has been. Thanx for the heads-up Decol. Never been too concerned because I always had a CCW recognized in FL. Last edited on Fri Jan 9th, 2009 04:16 pm by Gunslinger |
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no carry permit ? Regular Member
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mbpe912 wrote: First off I am a LEO with a very large agency in the TAMPA bay area. If you want to get a gun in your face and get prone out a knee in your neck don't tell me and let it catch me by surprise. Now if you tell me I am aware of it and the respect you have just show for me will most likely lead me to let you go with out a ticket. Why not tell me? If it was you in my shoes Wouldn't you want to know?Perfect example of why everyday, law abiding business people are disgusted with our police, myself included. The incident in California that is currently causing disturbances, the " I'll blow your head off " thread on this very site (video of police misconduct) and the murder by police of an eye doctor in Fairfax County, VA. has created an atmosphere where law abiding citizens have to fear police thugs like mbpe912. These are not peace officers but tyrant criminals with a badge, gun and low IQ. I no longer support the police at all. I will not cooperate with them in any investigation, will assume they are lying if I'm on jury duty and litigate any violation of my RIGHTS. Hey mbpe912, you may want to research US v. John Bad Elk before you go drawling your weapon on citizens, like you claim you would. Many people will think nothing of shooting you if they feel threatened by your irresponsible use of deadly force. We can protect ourselves from criminal officers like you. You have no more legal right to drawl a weapon on someone than any other citizen. Last edited on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 02:36 pm by no carry permit ? |
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smoking357 Banned
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Great comments. I wonder, is America truly a free country? Sure, we're better than some other places, but "being better" isn't the standard of freedom. I've been considering all the things I do, and I can find nowhere into which government does not intrude. All my life, I've been told I'm free, but was this just brainwashing? There has to be better than this. no carry permit ? wrote: Perfect example of why everyday, law abiding business people are disgusted with our police, myself included. The incident in California that is currently causing disturbances, the " I'll blow your head off " thread on this very site (video of police misconduct) and the murder by police of an eye doctor in Fairfax County, VA. has created an atmosphere where law abiding citizens have to fear police thugs like mbpe912. These are not peace officers but tyrant criminals with a badge, gun and low IQ. |
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suntzu Regular Member
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mbpe912 wrote: First off I am a LEO with a very large agency in the TAMPA bay area. If you want to get a gun in your face and get prone out a knee in your neck don't tell me and let it catch me by surprise. Now if you tell me I am aware of it and the respect you have just show for me will most likely lead me to let you go with out a ticket. Why not tell me? If it was you in my shoes Wouldn't you want to know?I am late into this discussion, but here is my two cents: First, and this is said with all due respect--if law enforcement is scared to death of the people, then the best thing they can do, and should do is--find another profession. There have been more soldiers and Marines killed since 2001 than law enforcement. The military in Iraq and Afghanistan has a job 100 times as difficult as any police officer, and by and large I don't seem them acting like thugs--but in the last little while there have been several deaths of citizens at the hands of law enforcement, rights trampled on, citizens detained without cause, or harassed because they chose to carry a gun, and were within the law when they did so--citizens who basically were either not resisting the police, or were on their own property at the time they were killed. The most notable being the death of the unarmed man in California by police on New Years Eve. We're not the enemy--please quit treating us like we are. The police are afraid of the people--and I would dare to say that the people are afraid of the police. Our rights are inalienable, and yet for many, it seems as if they are something to be gotten around. Yes, you have the power to detain a citizen--but when that citizen refuses to consent to a search, or refuses to answer questions--respect that. If you detain a citizen and violate their rights--don't be surprised when you get dragged into a civil rights lawsuit, or when the citizen tries to have the feds investigate you. Why not tell you? For the exact reason you have already stated--over zealous police who would try to run in and act like we are public enemy number one. Using your own logic--"if I have nothing to fear, why not consent to a search of my vehicle and person"? That is the point--it isn't just a right to look at--it is one to be respected. If the state does not require me to inform you I am armed then I am most definitely not going to do so unless they ask, and if they then want to see my permit--fine, I'll show it to them. If they stick a gun in my face and assault me just because they think they can and get away with it--you can bet your *** I am going to do everything I can to have you arrested and locked up, ESPECIALLY if I have not done anything other than to lawfully possess a firearm. If you violate other rights--then you can also assure yourself a lawsuit. When I took my class, my instructor told me that "there are so many rookies out now, and the vast majority don't know and don't want to know the laws they are supposed to enforce"--his words were--DON'T inform unless they ask you, or you travel through a state that requires it, because you may get a gun shoved in your face when you do, and be subjected to even further violations of your rights--and this came from a POLICE OFFICER, shockingly enough. Yet another major-MAJOR problem with the police today is that they are vastly too militarized--they are soldier wannabes, they dress like it, act like it, talk like it and arm themselves like they are at war with the people and this mentality is part of what is making it so difficult to trust any of them. Contrary to popular belief--law enforcement is not the military, and should stop acting like it--because you act as if you are at war with us--and we are the law abiding citizens from whom you derive your powers to begin with.... The one thing you should be assured of--your conversations with a citizen will almost certainly be recorded for our safety and to help in the preservation of our rights--CYOA, because no one else will. Finally-if you want respect--give us the same, show us, the PEOPLE the same level courtesy that you claim to want. |
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PaulBlart Banned 
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god bless mbp3. there is no safer place than under one of us hereo's boots. you deserve a medal |
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suntzu Regular Member
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ickthus wrote: I have been stopped driving twice, and both times handed my CCW with my DL the LEO. For me i have just put the LEO on notice that i am the good guy and there is no probable cause for anything other than why he stopped me . For some reason he felt the same way and forgot why he stopped me. if you can prove your a good guy ( most CCW permits do just that ) why not ? if you get stopped by Barney Fife what better way to nip it in the bud. nothing to see here folkesWhy don't you invite the police into your homes and let them tap and bug your phones, and let them just search you whenever they feel like it? The fundamental flaw--one of them anyway when your argument is :Why should we, the people have to "prove" anything to the police? They are the ones acting like we are the enemy of the state. If they want to mistreat us and violate our rights--I say SUE...and sue big.... The police need MORE public oversight and need to be held legally and financially accountable a LOT more than what they are. What is next-- "your papers are not in order".... |
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suntzu Regular Member
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mbpe912 wrote: Hey thats it fine don't tell me but I can tell you this I look at people with a CCW as part of the family and let them slide with a warning. So don't be pissed when I explain the three options to you.I just want to be treated with the same level of respect and courtesy that you want--no more and no less. If you want to know if I have a gun in my car if you run my license plate and license--be nice enough to ask me instead of sticking a glock in my face--because I assure you, I would be more than happy to file assault charges against you and sue you and have you arrested if you did stick a gun in my face for simply no justifiable reason... If you are nice enough to ask--"hey, I ran your license and you have a permit--are you carrying today?"--and if I am carrying I will simply say--"yes I am actually"--would you like to see my permit--and then I would be nice enough to hand it to you....but if you want to walk up and act like the gestapo, don't be surprised when I am filing charges against you and doing everything in my power to have a warrant issued for your arrest and then end up filing a lawsuit against you as well. Simply show me the common courtesy and respect that YOU want--that is NOT too much to ask. Last edited on Mon Jan 12th, 2009 09:05 pm by suntzu |
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suntzu Regular Member
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steve33904 wrote: most police would be very grateful if you had your carry license and drivers license in hand and saidI'm sure most would also be grateful if we submitted to every request to search our person, homes and things as well in absence of articulable probable cause..... |
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no carry permit ? Regular Member
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suntzu wrote: steve33904 wrote:most police would be very grateful if you had your carry license and drivers license in hand and saidI'm sure most would also be grateful if we submitted to every request to search our person, homes and things as well in absence of articulable probable cause..... Why stop there ? Some idiot cop somewhere probably would suggest Roadside checkpoints with technicians standing by for cavity searches. Unfortunately some Americans would say, " well it was uncomfortable but in the interest of officer safety, national security, the war on drugs and illegal immigration control we must waive a few Rights. Our safety depends on the flexibility of law enforcement techniques." Ever notice how when some clown is waiving "THEIR " rights, they are also advocating or demanding that you waive (better word: surrender) your rights as well ? |
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suntzu Regular Member
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no carry permit ? wrote: suntzu wrote:"they" know what is best for you--just ask "them" and "they" will tell you...steve33904 wrote:most police would be very grateful if you had your carry license and drivers license in hand and saidI'm sure most would also be grateful if we submitted to every request to search our person, homes and things as well in absence of articulable probable cause..... Serioulsy though--how many rights can we afford to give up in the name of security? Once they have our freedoms--they will have our security as well. I would rather be free than secure--for as long as I am free, I can provide for my own safety. |
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Sonora Rebel Regular Member 
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Interesting to read the statements about how 'dangerous' some occupations may (or may not) be w/o ever having participated directly in either. When actually tasked with the actual performance of such... Police, Military, Firefighter or whatever... it's not 'academic'. It may mean your ass... literally. Nobody wears a halo indicating they're one of the 'good guys' inna traffic stop. Such stops are among the most dangerous of all police activities. You never know 'what you've got' 'til it happens. When I was in 'Nam on my first tour in '65... a 21 yr. old former classmate was gunned down on Eutaw St. (Baltimore City) in broad daylight by the driver of a car that was double parked (in traffic). He'd just graduated the Police Academy a few months prior. I'd been workin' explosive ordnance flight ops on the flight deck (mostly at night... in all weather... over most of the Oceans 'n Seas on Earth) for about 3 outta 5 years w/o a scratch. Any Deputy, Ranger, Border Patrol, City Marshall or local cop stops me... I will volunteer that I'm armed, for their safety and mine. I care less what it says in some 'book'... I will keep both hands in sight, on the steering wheel and indicate the position/location of the weapon verbally if/when asked... ignition/radio off. Why? 'Cause I've been there, done that. It's called 'courtesy'... which seems to evade most people these days. Everybody wants a confrontation... 'til they get it. There are good cops 'n bad cops 'n so-so cops... but most just want'a go home after their shift like anyone else. Being armed imparts a responsibility to the bearer that isn't written in any damn book... or law. Florida, being a CC only state (so far) does not permit the LEO to readily 'observe' the weapon. It is reasonable and prudent then... to 'advise' the LEO that you are armed... and legitimately so by presenting your CCW with your license 'n such when asked. Police do not like being surprised by the presence of a weapon. You can argue yer 'Rights' till the cows come home... and go off on all these 4A tangents... blah, blah, blah... but a simple courtesy will go a long way. For the guy who wrote... "If I were in your shoes... I wouldn't worry about it. Firearms are common place..." Is an IDIOT with an alligator mouth overloadin' his hummin' bird ass. Guaranteed! That statement indicates he not only knows nothing... he doesn't suspect anything either. You couldn't fill his shoes... 'cept with what would run down your leg if you even thought about it. Last edited on Tue Jan 13th, 2009 06:11 pm by Sonora Rebel |
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brboyer Regular Member
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Sonora Rebel wrote: Interesting to read the statements about how 'dangerous' some occupations may (or may not) be w/o ever having participated directly in either. When actually tasked with the actual performance of such... Police, Military, Firefighter or whatever... it's not 'academic'. It may mean your ass... literally. The decision to reveal the presence of a firearm during a vehicle stop in Florida is a very personal one. Your opinion is duly noted. Next time you're pulled over in Florida, do what you want. But, please do not insult others that do not agree with your opinion. IMO, it all depends on the situation. A 'normal' traffic stop, I keep my mouth shut, take the ticket and be on my way. If the situation is somehow not 'normal', like one time where I was stopped and had a mag on the passenger seat, I gave the LEO my CWFL as a courtesy. My choice. Someone else not want to do that, fine with me. Another issue in Florida is that anyone 18 and over (not otherwise prohibited by law) can have handguns in the glovebox, console, in a holster under the seat, etc. (plus long guns anywhere in the car, including on your lap) without any permits/license. How do you handle that situation? For me, it's the same as above, it all depends on the situation. I've done it differently in different situations. (I've even lied in a couple stops. LEO: Any guns in the car? - Me: "Nope". Not illegal in Florida. Based on my judgement of the situation, there was no way my pistol was ever going to be discovered on those stops, so I chose to lie, better than remaining silent, IMO. With these particular LEO's.) Different strokes, for different folks. |
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Sonora Rebel Regular Member
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If I have any weapons in the vehicle... I would tell them... and the location. 'Go reachin' for your Registration in the glovebox or center console with a pistol in it w/o prior knowledge by the LEO could have a bad ending. I grew up in North Central Florida... Seminole/Volusia County area. I don't envision goin' back. There's a lot of remote stretches of road there tho 'n some strange folks drivin' on 'em. It's not a game. Take it seriously. |
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no carry permit ? Regular Member
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Sonora Rebel wrote: Interesting to read the statements about how 'dangerous' some occupations may (or may not) be w/o ever having participated directly in either. When actually tasked with the actual performance of such... Police, Military, Firefighter or whatever... it's not 'academic'. It may mean your ass... literally.Fact: Police have the same on the job related injury/ death rates as cab & limo drivers. Ask any licenced life insurance agent to show you the actuary tables. Most will have them. Everybody wants a confrontation ? I find that a ridiculous statement. Most open carry folks I know just want to be left alone. Most cops I know are always looking to start something over nothing, to exert their assumed "authority". Few law enforcement officers know much about the law they are supposed to be enforcing. Taking some uneducated, ex-soldier flunky exposing him to 85 hours of legal text review and expecting to have a competent professional is delusional. With respect to the "idiot" YOU ARE THE IDIOT. The hummin bird/ alligatir line proves it. P.S. Please learn to spell except, as "cept" is unceptable. |
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suntzu Regular Member
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Sonora Rebel wrote: Interesting to read the statements about how 'dangerous' some occupations may (or may not) be w/o ever having participated directly in either. When actually tasked with the actual performance of such... Police, Military, Firefighter or whatever... it's not 'academic'. It may mean your ass... literally. |
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suntzu Regular Member
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Sonora Rebel wrote: Everybody wants a confrontation... 'til they get it.I personally don't want a confrontation--I just want to be left alone to live my life in peace. But if a confrontation is presented to me when I have not done anything--then I would be more than happy to file a lawsuit and press charges in order to bring the bad guys in line. The law abiding people just want to be left alone and treated with civility and respect---that isn't too much to ask. Last edited on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 04:23 am by suntzu |
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SpringerXDacp Regular Member 
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Unfortunately, in Michigan, those who have a CPL and are carrying must disclose immediately to the officer. Even if we were not required to do so or I was traveling through a state that had reciprocity with Michigan, I would probably disclose to attempt to keep the tension at the traffic stop to a minimum. If we are not carrying, there is no Michigan statue requiring disclosure. ETA Keyword: attempt Last edited on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 04:29 am by SpringerXDacp |
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Gunslinger Regular Member
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suntzu wrote: Sonora Rebel wrote:Everybody wants a confrontation... 'til they get it.I personally don't want a confrontation--I just want to be left alone to live my life in peace. But if a confrontation is presented to me when I have not done anything--then I would be more than happy to file a lawsuit and press charges in order to bring the bad guys in line. I agree with you. If I'm stopped and have a concealed weapon in CO I have no duty to inform the cop. But I would. And I would have no duty to show my CCW, as CC in your vehicle in CO is completely legal--by statute, not lack of statute prohibiting, as to OC (save Denver County). I'd do it to show I am a good guy and increase my chance of not getting a ticket for speeding, which is the only reason I'd be likely to be stopped. If the cop was a dick, or the stop was unlawful, I'd take action against him, up to and including 18/42 USC process in Federal Court. If I got out of a ticket, it's worth it. |
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mach116993 Regular Member
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robo leo you forget florida is also a castle doctrine state and open carry is legal in your castle!!!!!!!! |
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Megadrone Regular Member
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mach116993 wrote: robo leo you forget florida is also a castle doctrine state and open carry is legal in your castle!!!!!!!! I have a CC permit. I carry every where I go. In Florida you are "Not" required to inform. Whether walking down the street or in your car. If the authority figure asks he/she must have probable cause and if he/she does not, you "Do Not" have to disclose. If it comes down to a frisking situation and he/she finds it. he/she is required by law to allow you "At this time" to disclose that you are carrying legally and present your carry permit. It's as easy as that. Ask the State Attorney General. To all police: If you are that afraid, then you need to find another job. People who have CC permits are law abiding citzens, the key word is "Citzen" To mbpe912: If you are truly a law enforcement officer, I agree with SGT Jensen, you are a dangerous individual and you need to be released from duty. It is officers like you that cause our children to be afraid of and not respect the law. |
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brboyer Regular Member
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Megadrone wrote: mach116993 wrote:robo leo you forget florida is also a castle doctrine state and open carry is legal in your castle!!!!!!!! In Florida, you are never, ever, required to inform anyone, under any circumstances! You are only required to display your CWFL and ID if the LEO asks to see your CWFL. This is an important distinction. It must be something along the lines of "Let me see you Concealed Weapons and Firearm license", they must specifically ask to see it. It's not implied when they ask if you are carrying. In a "typical" traffic stop (not a felony criminal investigation or missing persons case), if the LEO asks if you have any guns on you, "No" is a perfectly legal answer. If it's reached the pat-down stage, the LEO must have had PC, not RS, but PC, to believe you are armed. If you acted normally and did not offer the information, there is no basis for a pat-down. Even if the LEO somehow discovers it, nothing illegal has taken place. You might be proned out on the pavement with a gun in your ear, but no laws have been broken. |
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JSchu22 Regular Member
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Some opinions expressed here, most notably against mbpe912, are what I think are counter productive to the law abiding gun owners cause. I know it's not everyone but so many have the "pry it from my cold, dead hand" mindset, which makes plenty of sense to you but can seem irrational to those who do not see our point of view. I'm saying this, and I know I could be wrong, but I get the impression that some view the mere suggestion of informing a LEO as violation of their rights. It's the narrow-minded view, without tolerance for other opinions, that can be extremely hurtful to that individuals goal. I would likely inform of my firearm but I can respect those that choose not to. I will go on the record in saying I do not think that mbpe912's views are dangerous and would not call for him/her to reconsider their occupational choice. I think the problem here is that we are law abiding citizens and the suggestion of having a gun to our heads is appalling. You probably wouldn't have put yourself in that position to begin with as you likely would have had your firearm properly stored though. Imagine you are in the LEO's position and you see a firearm that has not been disclosed. While you're imagining that remember the job also requires you to come in frequent contact with individuals that aren't on the right side of the law. I wouldn't want to be lying face down on the pavement but I deserve it if I have a gun in plain-sight and I did not announce it. |
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MEPDtoUSBP Regular Member 
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Sonora Rebel wrote: Interesting to read the statements about how 'dangerous' some occupations may (or may not) be w/o ever having participated directly in either. When actually tasked with the actual performance of such... Police, Military, Firefighter or whatever... it's not 'academic'. It may mean your ass... literally.As an LEO...I say thank you. That is the right thing to do in my opinion. Even as an LEO, if I am stopped, I disclose as well. It just prevents surprises and hassles. |
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smoking357 Banned
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Sonora Rebel wrote:
If the cop wants courtesy, he shouldn't pull me over. |
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smoking357 Banned
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JSchu22 wrote: Some opinions expressed here, most notably against mbpe912, are what I think are counter productive to the law abiding gun owners cause. "Law-abiding" is an empty phrase. "Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual." -Thomas Jefferson |
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Glock23shooter Regular Member 
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You do not have to have a CCP/CCW to have any firearm in your vehicle loaded or unloaded! Most LEO's would perfered it was encase, anywhere in your vehicle is fine but just inform them if your reaching at a spot or if they ask let them know where it is at and if it's loaded or unloaded! There shouldn't be any hassle or problem the worse thing that can happen is they take your gun and run it up! |
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timf343 Campaign Veteran 
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I happened to see an episode of COPS the other day from somewhere in Florida where a man disclosed the presence of his legal firearm, and the LEO said that gave him probable cause to search the entire vehicle. The man was arrested for carrying drugs found during this search. I don't think such a search was legal.....does the presence of a firearm give LEO probable cause to search? If the presence of a firearm gives the LEO probable cause in Florida, I suggest you do NOT tell the police about the presence of a weapon. If he asks, and almost certainly will, just say "I want my lawyer before you ask me any questions." and that will force him to stop asking you. But do yourself a favor and keep the gun in a place OTHER than where you keep your paperwork. Tim |
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Taco Regular Member
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timf343 wrote: I happened to see an episode of COPS the other day from somewhere in Florida where a man disclosed the presence of his legal firearm, and the LEO said that gave him probable cause to search the entire vehicle. The man was arrested for carrying drugs found during this search. I don't think such a search was legal.....does the presence of a firearm give LEO probable cause to search? Are you sure it wasn't in California, as that *exact* thing happened on an episode in California. He ended up finding a loaded tube-fed .22. Each loaded round added to the charge. I beleve it turned to a felony with the 11th .22. In Florida a firearm is not probable cause to search. However, any firearm 'within reach' can be secured by the officer for his/her safety. This does mean he can go get it anywhere in the passenger compartment, provided you tell him where it is. That does not give carte blanche search ability for the vehicle. On a side note (because it was on Cops), if you are on probation or parole (as many who appear on Cops appear to be) the ability to search is greatly increased. I vote to hand over the CCW. Why? Beats the heck out of the 'surprising' if I shift awkwardly and expose the bottom of my holster. Other than the possibility of getting an  ... and then getting some of your time wasted (followed by the ticket you normally would have received), you may get a  followed by a have a nice day.P.S. Without a CCW in Florida the firearm must be securely encased in your vehicle. This does not mean actually encased, more of a 'you have to do something prior to grabbing the firearm, and the firearm is unable to be fired prior to doing said action'. For example: unsnap a holster (snapped holster is mentioned in the statute), unzip a purse, open a center console, open a govebox, grab from a shoebox with top on. It also can not be on your person, and must be concealed. With a CCW, you just have to keep it concealed. |
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TomTom Regular Member
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I am an LEO in FL. I'll be the first to tell you that just becuase you have a CWP does not make you law abiding or a good guy. Several years ago I was shot at by a person with a CWP, he was neither law abiding or a good guy. I also had a .38 snubby pressed into my vest by a person with a valid CWP, he lost by the way. The mere fact that you have a CWP does not mean anything to me or to most cops I know. If you have it and act like an a**hole then you will probably be treated as such. If your cool about it then in most cases your gonna go on your way, probably without a ticket or whatever else. And when I go to work at night I am scared. But the day I'm no longer scared then that will probably be the day I get killed. Fear keeps you alive, if your not scared then your not looking for the next encounter that is gonna come up. LEO or not, if your carrying a gun you better be looking for whats gonna happen. If your looking, then your scared it's coming and your gonna be prepared for it. If your not, your an idiot. Last edited on Sat Apr 25th, 2009 09:14 pm by TomTom |
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Glock23-4-Me Regular Member 
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TomTom wrote:
Thank you for posting. I am sorry about the incident you had. I am glad things worked out for you. Although I always would suggest you stay on your toes, I hope that the next CWFL holder you run across, you do not automatically treat like a criminal because of your past encounters. Stay safe out their and thank you for your service to the community. I realize it is normally a thankless job. |
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SANDCREEK Regular Member 
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"Extremism ALWAYS - brings about its own destruction" - Apparently more than the weather is extreme in Florida. I see a career change ahead for any LEO carrying a spare adrenal gland attached to the service belt . FEAR spawns ANGER. ANGER produces OVER-REACTION. OVER-REACTION results in UNJUSTIFIABLE action determinations. Last edited on Sat Apr 25th, 2009 10:37 pm by SANDCREEK |
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TomTom Regular Member
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I don't treat anyone like a criminal until I know they are such. But I do not trust anyone that I do not know. It's really pretty simple, I treat everyone the same until they do something that makes that change. I'm not a young buck rookie, Ive been around the block a few times and I know the game fairly well. I really don't care if someone tells me they have a CWP and are carrying. They don't have to tell me and if I don't know, well then I don't know. I also assume that if they are carrying, don't tell me and I find it/see it then they understand that things could end badly. Something I was taught a long time ago and I have always tried to keep in mind. Your gun is only your gun as long as you have it. Once it is taken away, it will kill you as quick as anyone else. |
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fridaddy Regular Member
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I don't mean this to criticize you personally, and I understand the difficulty of your job. Please remember I am a citizen not a subject. The former has the RIGHT to be armed, the latter does not. Secondly, by law here in FL, it is none of your business if I am armed. I agree you should assume everyone is, but the failure to tell you is no indication of my status as good or bad, merely a matter of privacy and personal choice. To me this is nothing but a further indication of the benefits of open carry, then you know who is armed. In the Heller opinion, Scalia made a great point. Concealed carry is in no way protected by the constitution, it was considered a questionable practice at the time. It is merely allowed by legislative grace. Unfortunately FL does not give me the option. As to open carry the Court left that decision for another day. Last edited on Sun Apr 26th, 2009 05:13 am by fridaddy |
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smoking357 Banned
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TomTom wrote:I also assume that if they are carrying, don't tell me and I find it/see it then they understand that things could end badly. For whom? You can draw no inference from the mere presence of a citizen's gun, nor can you treat a citizen poorly simply because of the possession such legal property. A citizen need not account to the government in the conduct of his affairs. Fridaddy is right on concerning the benefits of open carry. |
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TomTom Regular Member
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fridaddy wrote: I don't mean this to criticize you personally, and I understand the difficulty of your job. Your are 100% correct, it is none of my buisness if you are armed or not. What it comes down to is the preceived threat. If I stop someone, tell them to exit their vehicle and their gun is sticking out of their shirt by accident, my point of view is a surprise gun, which for me generally equals bad guy. That is gonna be met with my gun and some yelling. Once I can determine the person is compliant with my commands then guns get holstered, CWP checked and we move on with whatever we were doing. Now, I've beat the balls off my fair share of scumbags but I'm not gonna drag them to the ground and put a knee in their neck. It's probably gonna be more of create some distance and move to cover, unless I'm right up on them and then things may be a little different. As far as open carry, I like the idea for myself. But it's not gonna change anything with officer safety. Scumbags are still gonna conceal and that won't change. Last edited on Sun Apr 26th, 2009 11:14 am by TomTom |
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TomTom Regular Member
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smoking357 wrote: TomTom wrote:I also assume that if they are carrying, don't tell me and I find it/see it then they understand that things could end badly. Well it's not gonna end badly for me. As I explained in the above post. Guns being pointed some yelling of commands, etc. is what will happen. If the commands are ignored but the person is just simply being defiant and not raising the level of threat, i.e. reaching for the gun, then some additional units will arrive and that person will be disarmed and taken to jail. If the person raises the level of threat to a deadly force issue then, well I'm sure you can figure that part out. A gun may be legal but it is still a deadly weapon. Until I can prove otherwise, I have to assume that a gun is there to harm me or somebody else. Being able to show that there is no intent to cause harm can be something as simple as "hey there is gun in the glove box next to my weed" (it happened to me), "here is my DL and CWP" or the gun is holstered in plain view and no movement towards it has been made. It's when you ask for the insurance card and the guy opens the glove box where his gun is. He then reaches in not thinking that his insurance is under his gun (also happened to me). What would your inference be of that situation? |
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smoking357 Banned
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TomTom wrote: Well it's not gonna end badly for me. As I explained in the above post. Guns being pointed some yelling of commands, etc. is what will happen. If the commands are ignored but the person is just simply being defiant and not raising the level of threat, i.e. reaching for the gun, then some additional units will arrive and that person will be disarmed and taken to jail. If the person raises the level of threat to a deadly force issue then, well I'm sure you can figure that part out. If you pull a gun on someone who does not have one pointed at you, that's felony assault and a massive violation of civil rights. Given that America's police frequently engage in outright executions, don't be surprised if the occasional citizen believes that an officer's drawn gun means that the citizen is at his end and has but one chance to stay alive, or might as well go out with a fight. As a servant, your duty is to presume that the citizen is about his lawful travels and does not deserve to be threatened with murder for merely possessing lawful property. Don't let your hand touch the heel of your gun, and we'll all get along, just fine. |
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SANDCREEK Regular Member
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Motor vehicle focused law enforcement is the cutting edge of modern crime fighting, but it is also the line-in-the-sand standing between a police state, and a free society. We are a nation of laws-the "gold standards" of which are our State and U.S. constitutions. A cliche perhaps - but worth remembering that embracing the "hearts & minds" of the people is essential to any hope of ever winning the fight against crime. When the priority in a fight becomes the fight - first the objective has been lost - and then the fight will be lost. In February my granddaughter was hasseled by 2 Ohio Highway Patrol officers while traveling to New York. This incident occurred near Wooster OH. The contacting officer was alerted by the "profile" of my granddaughter (" hispanic") who was driving and her passenger ( "Puerto Rican" - with a head bandana). That " profile" WAS the PC for pulling her over . She was informed by the officer that " her tires had driven over the solid white line " ( Mercy, mercy, mercy !)upon exiting the highway at a convenience store. Before the traffic stop was over - she had been intimidated into consenting to a search of the vehicle in which her suitcases were searched,the car speakers removed and damaged in the process. The officers looked under the hood, and negligently left an air intake connection loose - which later resulted in the car stalling in traffic in the middle of the highway. This was verified by a mechanic later - down the road. My granddaughter learned alot about law enforcement in the "Land of the Free" that day. The Wooster Ohio HP will soon be "updated" concerning civil rights by the DOJ. This sort of travesty occurs daily throughout this nation. I reacted to learning of this incident by removing the decal on my rear window reflecting my support for local PD - my continued support is currently "under review" . More and more people are realizing that such tactics by law enforcement are "over-the-line", and must be halted. Last edited on Sun Apr 26th, 2009 07:24 pm by SANDCREEK |
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JeepSeller Regular Member
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TomTom, Don't take Smoking-Something's comments to seriously. I'm sure I really don't need to remind you that the vast majority of good decent American citizens obviously do not share his offensive views toward Law Enforcement and the service they provide to our society so honorably. If you'll check his profile and even quickly scan through a sampling of his posts, you'll see he somehow seems to get his jollys by attempting to inflame or incite a reaction from people. I have no doubt you have plenty of experince dealing whith his kind. As the "Default" thread clearly indicates, it's really best to avoid feeding the Trolls.  |
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TomTom Regular Member
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JeepSeller wrote: TomTom, I don't, I've dealt with many people like him and have learned to just ignore them. I have enjoyed the adult conversation that has been had in this forum. People like him tend to just ruin it for everyone. |
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smoking357 Banned
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SANDCREEK wrote: The Wooster Ohio HP will soon be "updated" concerning civil rights by the DOJ. Great post. I can defend myself against criminals, and I can insure myself against their theft. I have no defense or insurance against police violence and thievery. When police switched their mission from "keeping the peace" to "law enforcement," America ceased being a free country. |
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SANDCREEK Regular Member
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smoking357 wrote: SANDCREEK wrote:The Wooster Ohio HP will soon be "updated" concerning civil rights by the DOJ. LEO's across this nation are just going to have to commit to spending at least as much time educating themselves on the law, as they spend memorizing tactics designed to facilitate the abuse of their authority in trampling on the rights of others under the colour of law. My son was a LEO in Texas for years . He made a career change due to his involvement in a righteous shooting - incident to a hostage situation. His actions were justified, but the department did not stand behind him for political reasons. I know from that experience and the civil suit that he went through - that being a COP is the hardest job in the world. The answer though isn't to trample on the civil rights of others. |
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smoking357 Banned
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SANDCREEK wrote: LEO's across this nation are just going to have to commit to spending at least as much time educating themselves on the law, as they spend memorizing tactics designed to facilitate the abuse of their authority in trampling on the rights of others under the colour of law. Just remember that being a police officer is the one job you can't do if you're too intelligent: http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_56314.html Police reject candidate for being too intelligent A US man has been rejected in his bid to become a police officer for scoring too high on an intelligence test. Robert Jordan, a 49-year-old college graduate, took an exam to join the New London police, in Connecticut, in 1996 and scored 33 points, the equivalent of an IQ of 125. But New London police interviewed only candidates who scored 20 to 27, on the theory that those who scored too high could get bored with police work and leave soon after undergoing costly training. Mr Jordan launched a federal lawsuit against the city, but lost. The 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in New York upheld a lower court's decision that the city did not discriminate against Mr Jordan because the same standards were applied to everyone who took the test. He said: "This kind of puts an official face on discrimination in America against people of a certain class. I maintain you have no more control over your basic intelligence than your eye color or your gender or anything else." He said he does not plan to take any further legal action and has worked as a prison guard since he took the test. The average score nationally for police officers is 21 to 22, the equivalent of an IQ of 104, or just a little above average. |
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Highlander Regular Member 
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smoking357 wrote:
Cite please. |
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JeepSeller Regular Member
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Highlander wrote: smoking357 wrote: Highlander... Smoking-something's only purpose here is to make statements that inflame and offend. If you made a post commenting on how nice the stars are tonight, he'd find some argument just to be spitefull. Nothing he says has any value to a REAL discussion of any sort. |
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acrimsontide Regular Member 
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JeepSeller wrote: Highlander wrote:smoking357 wrote: Jeep, you are right on that one. Probably the best thing we could all do would be to just ignore Smoking's post and not respond to them at all. He thrives on the attention that he gets from the responses. Maybe if we ignore him he will either grow up or go away. He does his thing on other forums as well and always causes friction. |
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smoking357 Banned
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JeepSeller wrote: Highlander wrote:smoking357 wrote: You really can't be serious: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKy-WSZMklc |
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Recovering Californian Regular Member 
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Wow! Some of these cops on here continue to amaze me. First of all, I detect a massive inferiority complex with them. They can't stand it unless they are the ones in control of every situation. Police are supposed to be "Peace Officers", and to keep the peace. Sadly, they have devolved into revenue generators and unconstitutional law enforcement agents. The facts are that both good guys AND bad guys carry guns. Also, there are good AND bad cops out there as well. Just because you have a badge, your rights do not exceed mine, and I will not tolerate any cop violating my rights. Thankfully, I live in Northern Arizona, where most cops are not jack-booted thugs. If I were to encounter one, I would fry his ass in court with my audio recording, witness statements, and subpoenas. I would personally sue him, as well as his department. BTW, my Uncle, who is a LEO completely agrees with me. He views himself as a "Peace Officer", not a Nazi Revenue Collector. If this seems rude, then oh well. If you have no respect for my rights, then I have no respect for you. Last edited on Wed Apr 29th, 2009 04:22 pm by Recovering Californian |
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SlackwareRobert Regular Member
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It is that attitude that makes me NOT notify. Now if they put a sign on the front grill stateing reasonable LEO on board. So I know before hand I can trust this one, I will inform. But if you draw down on me for any reason, you had better be faster, or you won't go home. I have resigned myself to the possibility of a bullet hole, and have decided that my rights are worth it. I also understand that there is no way to stop a uniformed thug that's part of a gang, sorry partner, but you should have shot him before I was forced to defend myself. I watch officers approaching my car, and if you start pulling a gun, I will not wait to ask whats up. I will fight to defend my life. If your computer says i'm a fleeing jail bird, then your problem is with the typos in your organization not me. If you feel unsafe, then write your congressmen to change the laws that let violent criminals walk the street even after they are convicted. But to date there are more 'civilians' shot by rouge cops, than cops shot by LAC's. So statistics are on my side. |
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