Man sues after "POLICE" t-shirt arrest - Missouri - Stories From The States - OpenCarry.org

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Mainsail
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This seems applicable to open carry.

Man sues after "POLICE" t-shirt arrest

By Nicholas J.C. Pistor

ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH

12/30/2008

A Belleville Police officer arrested a St. Charles man for wearing a t-shirt emblazoned with the word "POLICE."

Now, Adam C. Weinstein, of St. Charles, has sued the department for what he calls a violation of his constitutional rights.

According to police documents, Weinstein was arrested in 2006 outside a bar in Belleville for "impersonating officers." He was wearing a black t-shirt with the word police striped across the front and back under a sweater. The t-shirt became exposed when he removed the sweater because he was hot.

"Those t-shirts are a sign of solidarity," said Howard A. Shalowitz, an attorney representing Weinstein. "How many people wear NYPD caps? Are they impersonating police?"

According to the lawsuit, a waitress told Weinstein that some police officers wanted to speak with him outside the bar. Weinstein went outside, he said, and was greeted by Belleville Police Officer Jeff Vernatti.

Vernatti, Weinstein alleges, asked him for his police credentials. Weinstein says he told the officer he didn’t have any credentials because he wasn’t a police officer.

That’s when, according to Weinstein, the police officer started screaming curse words and became physically and verbally abusive. Weinstein says he was cuffed and later released by the officer, but made to take the t-shirt off while standing in the cold.

Weinstein was ticketed for impersonating a police officer, but it was later dismissed. The ticket only alleges Weinstein wore the t-shirt.

"I’m afraid to go to Belleville," Weinstein said in an interview. According to the lawsuit, Weinstein is a firefighter.

Weinstein said he bought two of the shirts--one for him, one for his wife--at Leon’s Uniform Company in St. Louis while buying supplies for firefighting.

The lawsuit was filed last week in St. Clair County. Vernatti and the city of Bellevile are named as defendents.

In 2005, Vernatti and the city of Belleville were sued for allegedly tasering a man. That case was later settled before going to trial.

Belleville Mayor Mark W. Eckert declined to comment through an aide. A spokesperson for the Belleville Police also declined to comment. Vernatti couldn’t be reached for comment.

Steven Beckett, professor and director of trial advocacy at the University of Illinois’ law school, said the arrest may be a violation of Weinstein’s First Amendment rights.

"A t-shirt alone isn’t enough to arrest someone," Beckett said. "There must be some overt act."

Beckett added: "The police complaint on its face is inconsistent with the First Amendment."

npistor@post-dispatch.com | 618-624-2577

diesel556
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He's polite. He's a firefighter.

They're in trouble, and they deserve it.

Task Force 16
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I wonder how the officer would have reacted if the word on the T was spelled PO LICE?

mrbiggles
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how dare you impersonate higher class citizens. peasent

FogRider
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A badge I can understand, especially if it looks like a police badge. But a shirt? Seriously?

Citizen
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FogRider wrote: A badge I can understand, especially if it looks like a police badge. But a shirt? Seriously?

Well, maybe it looked like those cute little pique knit polo shirts bicycle cops wear. The ones that say "POLICE" across the back. As though the guns, tasers, and radios on their belt, and the little iron-on patch badge didn't give a clue.

Hawkflyer
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You know you can buy shirts that say "FBI" on them and nobody will bother you, You can buy any number of official looking cloths and nothing from anywhere. What could possibly have been going through these guys minds?

Suppose this guy was just a "Sting" fan? Did this LEO never hear of "Police" the band?? I hope this kid sues them for the shirt off their back.

Regards

Gordie
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My favorite part is that he was wearing it under a sweater. He only revealed the t-shirt when he took the sweater off because he was hot. How much do you want to bet that he didn't even think about the shirt when he put it on?

Somehow I doubt that impersonating an officer was his intent.

Hawkflyer
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Well I would be the first to admit that St Louis and the surrounding area represent a different sort of world from the rest of the state, but this is over the top. All I can think is that these LEOs had nothing better to do. I can understand them coming to check this out if it was called in by a citizen, but to actually make an arrest on this sort of this is really out there.

Regards

Carnivore
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Well the fella won't have to worry about his safety from running into burning buildings to save property and innocent lives any more, :celebrate

He should've made the supposed officers produce some credentials, "( Any one can buy clothes to resemble a police officer)" RIGHT !! I'd drive that hard cold rolled poker all the way home!! :cuss:

and take my next few strolls right down the streets of their fair city with someone in the background with the film rolling .

deepdiver
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Having spent some years in that area of Illinois and still having some ties to that community, let me just say that nothing in this story is in any way surprising.

CaptainFinn
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Good thing he wasn't wearing a Che Guevara T-shirt, someone might have thought the revolutionary leader had risen from the grave....

Sonora Rebel
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This particular 'cop' should be fired. He should'a been fired already.

Grapeshot
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Do I sense a new motorcycle (or truck) being delivered to Missouri?

Yata hey

guardian57
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Another great reason to stay out of Illinois (as if I really need another reason)

Virginian683
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So if I put on a standard police uniform with a badge and go about town would that also be "expressing my constitutional rights?" What if I put lights and a siren on my car?

I'm sorry, but the public has a right to expect that persons identifying themselves as police actually are police officers. They wear uniforms for a reason.

Personally I get tired of seeing these shirts. Since many departments also use similar shirts at certain times, I always wonder whether I'm looking at a real police officer or not. (Lack of equipment doesn't mean anything. He could be off duty.)

What if there had been some kind of emergency in that restaurant and some one went running up to that guy for help, only to find "oh...uhhh...no I'm not really a cop...I just play one in public."

While I don't agree with the way the cops handled this, this has nothing to do with open carry and seems to me a straightforward case of impersonating police.

Gordie
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So I guess that means that you would be against all of the people who have worn NYPD and NYFD hats and shirts after 9/11? After all, they can't all work for NYPD and NYFD.

zigziggityzoo
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Virginian683 wrote:
So if I put on a standard police uniform with a badge and go about town would that also be "expressing my constitutional rights?" What if I put lights and a siren on my car?

I'm sorry, but the public has a right to expect that persons identifying themselves as police actually are police officers. They wear uniforms for a reason.

Personally I get tired of seeing these shirts. Since many departments also use similar shirts at certain times, I always wonder whether I'm looking at a real police officer or not. (Lack of equipment doesn't mean anything. He could be off duty.)

What if there had been some kind of emergency in that restaurant and some one went running up to that guy for help, only to find "oh...uhhh...no I'm not really a cop...I just play one in public."

While I don't agree with the way the cops handled this, this has nothing to do with open carry and seems to me a straightforward case of impersonating police.

I think he was impersonating a Sting fan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Police

RU98A
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Virginian683 wrote: So if I put on a standard police uniform with a badge and go about town would that also be "expressing my constitutional rights?" What if I put lights and a siren on my car?

I'm sorry, but the public has a right to expect that persons identifying themselves as police actually are police officers. They wear uniforms for a reason.

Personally I get tired of seeing these shirts. Since many departments also use similar shirts at certain times, I always wonder whether I'm looking at a real police officer or not. (Lack of equipment doesn't mean anything. He could be off duty.)

What if there had been some kind of emergency in that restaurant and some one went running up to that guy for help, only to find "oh...uhhh...no I'm not really a cop...I just play one in public."

While I don't agree with the way the cops handled this, this has nothing to do with open carry and seems to me a straightforward case of impersonating police.The man did not have on a police uniform. It was merely a T-shirt with the word POLICE on the front and back. According to your thinking if a person was to wear a cap or a T-shirt with the words John Deere on them that person would be trying to impersonate a tractor. If you were to wear a T-shirt with the word Ruger on the front and back would you be impersonating a Ruger firearm? If he would have had the word queer on his shirt would that made him a homosexual? See how silly your line of thinking is?There was no impersonation of police involved here at all.

Last edited on Sat Jun 13th, 2009 07:38 pm by RU98A

Ian
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Virginian683 wrote: So if I put on a standard police uniform with a badge and go about town would that also be "expressing my constitutional rights?" What if I put lights and a siren on my car?

I'm sorry, but the public has a right to expect that persons identifying themselves as police actually are police officers. They wear uniforms for a reason.

Personally I get tired of seeing these shirts. Since many departments also use similar shirts at certain times, I always wonder whether I'm looking at a real police officer or not. (Lack of equipment doesn't mean anything. He could be off duty.)

What if there had been some kind of emergency in that restaurant and some one went running up to that guy for help, only to find "oh...uhhh...no I'm not really a cop...I just play one in public."

While I don't agree with the way the cops handled this, this has nothing to do with open carry and seems to me a straightforward case of impersonating police.

How is this a straightforward case of impersonating?

You do realize that you have to do more than just wear a police shirt to be guilty of impersonating don't you?

PavePusher
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A T-shirt is not a uniform. Just ask any First Sgt. (Do NOT ask how I know this...)

Virginian683 wrote:
So if I put on a standard police uniform with a badge and go about town would that also be "expressing my constitutional rights?" What if I put lights and a siren on my car?

I'm sorry, but the public has a right to expect that persons identifying themselves as police actually are police officers. They wear uniforms for a reason.

Personally I get tired of seeing these shirts. Since many departments also use similar shirts at certain times, I always wonder whether I'm looking at a real police officer or not. (Lack of equipment doesn't mean anything. He could be off duty.)

What if there had been some kind of emergency in that restaurant and some one went running up to that guy for help, only to find "oh...uhhh...no I'm not really a cop...I just play one in public."

While I don't agree with the way the cops handled this, this has nothing to do with open carry and seems to me a straightforward case of impersonating police.

Carnivore
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Found a bit of an update..

http://www.madisonrecord.com/news/216591-man-arrested-for-wearing-police-t-shirt-at-christmas-party-sues-belleville-officer

Virginian683
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I didn't say it was a uniform. But it is the same as putting on a uniform. He is explicitly identifying himself as a member of the police, which he is not.

PavePusher wrote: A T-shirt is not a uniform. Just ask any First Sgt. (Do NOT ask how I know this...)

Virginian683 wrote:
So if I put on a standard police uniform with a badge and go about town would that also be "expressing my constitutional rights?" What if I put lights and a siren on my car?

I'm sorry, but the public has a right to expect that persons identifying themselves as police actually are police officers. They wear uniforms for a reason.

Personally I get tired of seeing these shirts. Since many departments also use similar shirts at certain times, I always wonder whether I'm looking at a real police officer or not. (Lack of equipment doesn't mean anything. He could be off duty.)

What if there had been some kind of emergency in that restaurant and some one went running up to that guy for help, only to find "oh...uhhh...no I'm not really a cop...I just play one in public."

While I don't agree with the way the cops handled this, this has nothing to do with open carry and seems to me a straightforward case of impersonating police.

OC-Glock19
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Carnivore wrote: Found a bit of an update..

Excellent. It sounds like he got a good lawyer.

deepdiver
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Reading the update, I am again struck with a "I can see that happening" reaction based on my observations and experiences in that area.

I am still wondering how the cops got involved in the first place. The whole thing about the cops showing up and asking someone else to ask Weinstein to come talk to them seems somewhat odd. I'm familiar with the bar and well, except for the abusive Belleville LEO it just seems odd.

9026543
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The man did not have on a police uniform. It was merely a T-shirt with the word POLICE on the front and back. According to your thinking if a person was to wear a cap or a T-shirt with the words John Deere on them that person would be trying to impersonate a tractor. If you were to wear a T-shirt with the word Ruger on the front and back would you be impersonating a Ruger firearm? If he would have had the word queer on his shirt would that made him a homosexual? See how silly your line of thinking is?

Virginian683 wrote:
I didn't say it was a uniform. But it is the same as putting on a uniform. He is explicitly identifying himself as a member of the police, which he is not.

PavePusher wrote: A T-shirt is not a uniform. Just ask any First Sgt. (Do NOT ask how I know this...)

Virginian683 wrote:
So if I put on a standard police uniform with a badge and go about town would that also be "expressing my constitutional rights?" What if I put lights and a siren on my car?

I'm sorry, but the public has a right to expect that persons identifying themselves as police actually are police officers. They wear uniforms for a reason.

Personally I get tired of seeing these shirts. Since many departments also use similar shirts at certain times, I always wonder whether I'm looking at a real police officer or not. (Lack of equipment doesn't mean anything. He could be off duty.)

What if there had been some kind of emergency in that restaurant and some one went running up to that guy for help, only to find "oh...uhhh...no I'm not really a cop...I just play one in public."

While I don't agree with the way the cops handled this, this has nothing to do with open carry and seems to me a straightforward case of impersonating police.

No1
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Task Force 16 wrote: I wonder how the officer would have reacted if the word on the T was spelled PO LICE?
POLITE

Carnivore
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Depending on the supposed "T" shirt violators demeanor, the cops had no right calling the man out based solely on what was printed on his shirt, the cops were wrong!!and I hope the dept. get their asses sued off with a few departmental writeups on the offenders, I've seen plenty of folks wearing those shirts, and I feel the Cops were out to play thug gang tactics on the innocent public. These cops were way out of line !!

turbodog
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I do part time work for the state of Louisiana as a motorcycle instructor. Sometimes we do refresher training for motor officers or basic training for future motor officers. One of my students from a local SO gave me a black t-shirt with "Sheriff" printed on front and back. Probably similar to the "police" shirt the guy got arrested for.

I'm proud of the shirt, given to me in thanks for the training he received, and I do wear it occasionally but no one with eyes would ever think I'm a cop.

The law here is pretty clear on impersonating an officer. It has to do with the intent of the person. One could wear a full uniform here and not legally be arrested for impersonation, if, for example, the person was an actor in town for a film shoot. BUT, if this same actor went and used the authority implied by the uniform to do something or go somewhere normally reserved only for real law enforcement personnel, now he has committed impersonation.

Last edited on Tue Jul 7th, 2009 11:54 pm by turbodog

Jblack44
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Then why are these types of clothing available to the general public????

This guy is in the right!!!!! Sue his a$$ off.

nomidlname
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Here's an update about the arresting officer. No update about this specific case though

At least he's gone :celebrate

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/laworder/story/5EA7DBCB10E5C0B3862575E70006561F?OpenDocument

No prosecution in Belleville police abuse claim

By Nicholas J.C. Pistor

ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH

07/02/2009

BELLEVILLE — A police officer accused of using excessive force will not face criminal charges, St. Clair County State's Attorney Robert Haida said Wednesday.

Jeff Vernatti, the officer, resigned from the Belleville force earlier this year over a man's complaint of being excessively shocked with a stun gun during an arrest at a convenience store.

Belleville Police investigated the complaint and found it valid. They also said Vernatti did not accurately report the incident. Chief William Clay sought Vernatti's termination, and then forwarded the complaint — along with surveillance video of the incident — to the Illinois State Police Public Integrity Unit for a criminal investigation.

Haida said the state police — along with the FBI — investigated the issue and "felt there was insufficient evidence to prove excessive force."

Haida noted, "They were fairly strong in their conclusions."

The complainant, Ralph Graham, was arrested on Jan. 1 after a clerk at a convenience store called police saying an intoxicated man was causing a disturbance and wouldn't leave.

Vernatti was the former police union local president. He could not be reached for comment Wednesday. Capt. Mark Bramlett of the state police would not discus specifics of the investigation, but said "all investigative work was discussed and handed over to the state's attorney."

In 2005, Vernatti and the city were sued over Taser use in a case that later was settled.

Also, Vernatti and the city faced litigation after Vernatti arrested a man for wearing a T-shirt emblazoned with the word "POLICE." Adam C. Weinstein, of St. Charles, sued the department for what he called a violation of his constitutional rights. The status of that suit was unclear on Wednesday.

Last edited on Mon Jul 13th, 2009 11:01 pm by nomidlname

Beau
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Virginian683 wrote: So if I put on a standard police uniform with a badge and go about town would that also be "expressing my constitutional rights?" What if I put lights and a siren on my car?

I'm sorry, but the public has a right to expect that persons identifying themselves as police actually are police officers. They wear uniforms for a reason.

Personally I get tired of seeing these shirts. Since many departments also use similar shirts at certain times, I always wonder whether I'm looking at a real police officer or not. (Lack of equipment doesn't mean anything. He could be off duty.)

What if there had been some kind of emergency in that restaurant and some one went running up to that guy for help, only to find "oh...uhhh...no I'm not really a cop...I just play one in public."

While I don't agree with the way the cops handled this, this has nothing to do with open carry and seems to me a straightforward case of impersonating police.

I usually don't post in other states threads. Mostly I read their horror stories and reflect on how good we have it hear in IN. But to the point.

Most of my conversations with other citizens start with them looking at my firearm and asking if I am a cop. By your line of thinking you should not be carrying a firearm openly. This would lead other people to believe you are an officer.

Just because your wearing a pro football jersey does not mean you are impersonating one.

I don't much care for the POLICE t-shirts either. I would never wear one. But never have I assumed someone was an officer simply by wearing one of these shirts.