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personaltrainer1987
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Posted: Sun Apr 22nd, 2007 12:42 am |
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Hey guys,
This wasn't in New York City or even in the U.S. for that matter, but the couple that I had the conversation with were fellow Jews from Williamsburg (Brooklyn), and were visiting Tel Aviv, so I feel that it should go in the New York forums.
Backround: I just got back from Tel Aviv on Tuesday, April 10, (my Birthday, by the way!) and I had a VERY interesting experience while I was there. You see, as I've mentioned before, I'm a dual citizen with both the U.S. and Israel, so when I was 18 I enlisted into the Israeli Army for 1 1/2 years. Since I'm a dual, I was able to not only choose whether or not I would serve altogether, but if I wanted to serve for the full 3 years or for half of that time. Being patriotic, I decided to serve, but being smart, I decided to serve for half of the usual time! However, because I did the 1 1/2 years of full-time active service option, I have to remain a reservist for 5 years from the time that my enlistment ended. Thus, my enlistment ends on my 25th birthday.
As I am still a reservist in the Israeli Defense Forces, I have to report to Israel for mandatory service and training for 4 weeks out of every year. So, I went over, spent a week going through military training and qualifications/tests, and then spent 3 weeks serving in the conflict zones in the west bank.
I LOVED IT!!!! In Israel, EVERYBODY open carry's automatic weapons (8 times out of ten, its an Uzi, as they only cost about a couple hundred dollars in Israel and the government hands them out like candy anyway!) whether they are on active duty, reserves, or no longer serve. (Everybody is still in the officially recognized "populus militia") You literally walk around, and almost everybody you see from like age 14 and up (sometimes younger) has an assualt rifle, a sub-machine gun, or a machine pistol slung over their shoulder or riding on their hip! Concealed carry is HIGHLY frowned upon and very suspicious, as people tend to wonder what exactly it is that you're trying to hide by concealing your weapon. It's seen as criminal! You need a special permit to carry concealed, and their not very easy to come by (although they are issuing more and more lately.) You literally have to get fingerprinted and registered, interview with a government official in charge of permit issuance, declare your allegiance to the State of Israel, prove that you are religious, and have to declare a formal reason that you can prove as to why you need a permit to carry concealed! (And you guy's thought that New York was bad!) Simply wanting one isn't enough. You have to live in/work in/travel regularly in, one of the conflict zones, or work in a job that requires it, etc. Then, you can only CC with a pre-approved firearm, and get that firearm registered and prove that you've recieved a heavy amount of training with that firearm in a government-approved course. If you are caught carrying any other firearm on your person concealed than the one that you are authorized to carry, you can get arrested! The only exeption to all of this if you want to carry concealed is if you are an off-duty police officer or are/were a lieutenant or above in the IDF. Meaning, if at any point in your mandatory military service you are or were a lieutenant (be it active, reserve, or honorably retired,) you automatically have the right to carry concealed, should you so choose. But, their is no real reason for it. The natural alternative is to just carry open, which their are literally NO restrictions on, at all, what-so-ever, as long as you are a Jewish citizen.
Anyway, about that OC experience. So, my last weekend in Israel, its a Friday afternoon and I just finish all of my service duties in the Bank for the year! (that's what we call the West Bank). Me and 2 of my army buddies head out for Tel Aviv on the other side of the country, 'cause we still have 1 day left of reservist military service, and since we have to fly out of Tel Aviv anyway, we've been reassigned to that city for the remainder of our tour. But now its the Sabbath and we have the rest of the day and Saturday off. We get to Tel Aviv, park the army jeep at the motor pool, go up to our hotel rooms, and change out of our military fatigues. We then go out for a day on the town. It's our day off, and we're gonna make the most of it! All of us are dressed in civilian clothes, jeans, sneakers, and t-shirts. The only thing identifying us as IDF is our olive drap, army issued kippah's (yarmulkas), but then again, everybody wears those, as every adult has served and they are a symbol of supporting our troops. We're also OCing with our duty weapons (the full-size Uzi 9mm sub-machine gun) slung over our shoulders by a rifle sling. In Tel Aviv, we fit right in! (Try THAT anywhere in the U.S.!) Now granted, we're carrying Israeli-style (full mag, empty chamber, safety on as that's the law) but hey, you win some, you lose some.
We go into a coffe shop (VERY popular in Israel) in downtown right by the beach, and my two buddies go head off to the little boys room. I walk up to the counter and have a seat at the bar, looking at the menu. Just then, a husband and wife walk into the shop and stroll over to where I'm sitting. As they sit down on my right at the two empty bar stools there, the wife brushes up against my Uzi. Immediately, she notices it (I don't know how in the hell she missed it in the first place) and she starts to panic! Then, I quickly find out why. She turns to her husband on her right, and says to him in a VERY audible, yet wisper-style tone, "Herb, that kid is wearing a machine gun!!" Here's the catch... she said it in English in a very clear, very distinct Brooklyn Jewish accent! She figured that since she was in Israel and that I was a young guy, I couldn't speak English, just Hebrew (which, in all fairness, is often times the case with young men and women in Israel.)
Her husband says to her, also in a Brooklyn Jewish accent (most likely Williamsburg area) in English, "Well, honey, that's what they do here. We've seen that a lot since we arrived. Why is it surprising you now?" She replies, "Yeah, but this kid looks really, really young, like a teenager! And I just brushed up against a machine gun!"
All the while, I'm just sitting there, looking at the menu, pretending like I can't understand what they're saying! The wife says, "Herb, you speak Hebrew! Would you mind talking to this kid for me?! Ask him why he's wearing an assault rifle!" The husband replies, "Look Marge, I'm not intruding into this kid's personal business! I'm sure that he has some sort of reason for carrying that thing. Besides, there's nothing illegal about what he's doing in this country!"
Marge replies, "Well, he's just a kid (I do look really young, in all fairness) and he's making me nervous with that thing! Would you just talk to him?!"
Herb, "Alright, alright. I'll talk to him, I'll talk to 'em. But don't blame me if he gets pissed of and shoots us both!"
Turning to me, and tapping me on the right shoulder, Herb says to me in really crappy, indistict, heavily accented Hebrew, "Hey kid, my wife wants to know; Why are you carrying around a machine gun?!"
Slowly, I shift my body around to face both him and his wife, both looking at me very intently, and respond in a clear, Connecticut accent in English, "Why do you think?!"
Herb and Marge look astonished! I wish I could describe for you the look on their faces! It was priceless! Marge says, fumbling around her words a lot, "You're an AMERICAN!!!!" I replied, "Yeah, I'm a dual citizen. I spent my early years growing up between Israel and Connecticut, and then i moved permanently to the States when I was a teenager."
Herb; "But, but, why do you carry a gun?! And a machine gun for that matter?! You're an American!!! We don't do that sort of thing!"
I replied; "Well, then your obviously not from the same part of America that I'm from! Where I come from, people do that sort of thing everyday."
Marge; "We're from New York, and people don't even own guns where we live!"
Me; "Oh yes they do! Half of everybody you know owns a gun. They just don't talk about it or carry it."
Herb; "No, that can't be! There's NO WAY! We'd know about it!"
Me; "Would you?"
Marge; "Well, I guess not. Not if they don't talk about it."
Me; "Approximately half of all New Yorkers own guns, statistically speaking."
Herb; "Well, then... I guess you learn something new everyday."
Me; "In my case, I carry both here in Israel and Stateside in Connecticut. Although, admittedly, the style of carry and the weapon selection is vastly different between those two locations."
Herb; "Yeah, I'll say! You sure don't see kids walking around with automatic weapons in New York!"
Me laughing; "Sure ya do! They're just breaking the law there. There's a big difference.
Marge; "No, he means doing it legally!"
Me; "I wish that we did though. I like the Israeli method better."
Marge; "Really!! But imagine how much crime there would be!"
Me again laughing hysterically; "Oh yeah! Take a look around you! Do you see shootouts and mass murders in the streets?!! Okay, okay.... aside from the Palestinian terrorists attacks, do you see OK corral shootouts and mass murders in the streets here?!"
Herb; "Well no, but..."
Me interrupting him; "But nothing! Aside from the terrorist attacks, Israel has essentially NO violent crime! Our citizen-on-citizen violent crime rate is the lowest in the entire developed world! Why do you think that is? It's cause EVERYBODY'S armed! No criminal in their right mind is going to try to mug or rape a Jew in Israel. They know that they'll get shot about 50 or 60 times before they can even get going! Imagine if that was the case in America. Every law-abiding citizen walked around with a gun. There would be NO CRIME!!! Criminals would be scared @#$%less of doing anything wrong to anyone!"
Herb; "Well yeah, I guess that you have a point, but I would be too scared in America to go outside my house if I knew that everybody that I met was armed!"
Me; "Well, how do you feel right now? Do you feel scared, or nervous, or do you feel calm and relaxed?"
Marge; "Well, right now I feel calm and relaxed, I guess."
Me; "Yeah, well guess what. EVERYBODY around you right now is armed!! (There were about 40 or so people in the coffe shop at that moment, about half of them with automatic weapons over their shoulders or on their hips, but I approached a random guy wearing a kippah sitting in a chair, no weapon visible, reading a Tenach (the old testament).
Me, to the random guy, speaking in Hebrew; "Hey sir, what's your name?"
Random guy; "Moshe Latsman, why?"
Me (showing him my IDF ID card); "Corporal (my hebrew name), Israeli Army. Are you armed?"
Moshe Latsman; "Of course!"
Me; "Let's see that weapon and permit."
Moshe stands up, opens up his suit jacket, reaches with his right hand to his left shoulder holster, and pulls out a glock 23 (.40 caliber compact) and hands it over to me. Herb and Marge look stunned! The look on their faces were priceless! I look over the guys permit and gun, tell him he's all set (even though the gun he was carrying WASN'T the Heckler and Koch USP .45 that he was registered for, but I couldn't give two @#$%s less) and he goes back to doing his thing.
Me (to Herb and wife); "See, I told you. EVERYBODY that you see is ARMED! Now tell me, do you feel any less safe than you did a grand total of thirty seconds ago?"
Herb; "Well, no, I guess not, but I still don't like guns."
Me; "And that's your perogative and you're welcome to it. Just don't force that on other people, or allow our politicians back in the States to force it on us!
Marge; "Well, it was good talking to you, young man."
Me; "Shabbat Shalom" (Happy Sabbath)
Herb and Marge; "Shabbat Shalom."
I really hope that they learned something from all of that.
Last edited on Sun Apr 22nd, 2007 01:16 am by personaltrainer1987
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DKSuddeth
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Posted: Sun Apr 22nd, 2007 03:11 am |
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I may have to convert and ask for Israeli citizenship. 
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Gray Peterson
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Posted: Sun Apr 22nd, 2007 06:48 am |
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Personal Trainer,
Thanks for sharing your experiences. Can you share with us what it takes for a non-Israeli (American citizen specific) to be able to import their own personal firearm into Israel, and to be able to carry it openly? If concealed carry is not an option, I'll certainly take open carry whenever I can get it. If you have any official sources or citations, please share with us. I've always wanted to visit Israel.
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GaGunOwner
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Posted: Sun Apr 22nd, 2007 07:14 am |
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You should give up your US citizenship, you are loyal to Israel first not the US because you have joined their armed forces. I believe you automatically loose your US citizenship for this, I can only hope.
Even though highly unlikely, what if the US and Israel went to war? Would you desert the Israeli armed forces? If so, you shouldn't be in their military. If not, you are a treasonous Benedict Arnold.
Dual citizenship SUCKS!
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personaltrainer1987
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Posted: Sun Apr 22nd, 2007 08:36 am |
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GaGunOwner wrote: You should give up your US citizenship, you are loyal to Israel first not the US because you have joined their armed forces. I believe you automatically loose your US citizenship for this, I can only hope.
Even though highly unlikely, what if the US and Israel went to war? Would you desert the Israeli armed forces? If so, you shouldn't be in their military. If not, you are a treasonous Benedict Arnold.
Dual citizenship SUCKS!
Easy there, GaGunOwner!
First of all, I've already gone through all of the legal issues of dual citizenship, service in the armed forces, etc. with an attorney, the U.S. State Department, and the Israeli Government.
1) If you are a dual citizen of two allied nations, and one of those allied nations requires mandatory military service for all citizens, then, at least in the case of the United States and Israel, an individual holding such citizenships has the option of serving in one or both (just not both at the same time) militaries, without sacrificing citizenship status in the other country. In layman's terms, the U.S. State Department told me that even though I was enlisting into the Israeli Army, I would not lose my U.S. citizenship.
2) My loyalty lies first and foremost ALWAYS to the United States of America! I was born on American soil, both of my parents and both of my brothers (both are younger) are American citizens (although only my mom is not a dual citizen), and I believe in the principles upon which our great nation was founded, especially the Bill of Rights and the Constitution of the United States! Don't get me wrong.... I love Israel with all of my heart and wish to stay true to my Jewish roots and my race, but I believe firmly and wholeheartedly in the Great American Experiment into Democracy, and I believe that the United States is the most free and independant nation/state that the world has ever known, and would gladly give my life to defend it!
3) The odds of the United States going to war with Israel are nill, as the United States supplies Israel with $4 billion dollars in aid annually, plus virtually unlimited amounts of military equipment. In exchange, Israel supplies the United States with THE BEST INTELLIGENCE and Special Operations commandos that the world has EVER seen, (Yes, you read that correctly), and Israel remains a free and democratic nation in the midst of hostile Arab, Theocratic, Monarchial, terrorist states. The U.S. and Israel rely very much so on each other, and the chances of an argument, let alone a war, between the two nations is pretty much impossible.
4) I do plan on serving in the United States Marine Corps as an active-duty commissioned officer once I graduate from college and my reservist obligations in the IDF expire. And again, I will NOT be sacrificing my Israeli citizenship in order to serve in the Marines!
I will NEVER give up my U.S. citizenship for ANY reason AT ALL, WHAT-SO-EVER! My loyalty is first and foremost to the United States of America! I have my reasons for this, but that is how I feel, and my patriotism should not be questioned.
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Gray Peterson
State Researcher
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Posted: Sun Apr 22nd, 2007 08:49 am |
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GaGunOwner wrote: You should give up your US citizenship, you are loyal to Israel first not the US because you have joined their armed forces. I believe you automatically loose your US citizenship for this, I can only hope.
Even though highly unlikely, what if the US and Israel went to war? Would you desert the Israeli armed forces? If so, you shouldn't be in their military. If not, you are a treasonous Benedict Arnold.
Dual citizenship SUCKS!
Flamefest, anyone? Jeez louise.
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personaltrainer1987
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Posted: Sun Apr 22nd, 2007 09:16 am |
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Lonnie Wilson wrote: Personal Trainer,
Thanks for sharing your experiences. Can you share with us what it takes for a non-Israeli (American citizen specific) to be able to import their own personal firearm into Israel, and to be able to carry it openly? If concealed carry is not an option, I'll certainly take open carry whenever I can get it. If you have any official sources or citations, please share with us. I've always wanted to visit Israel.
Lonnie,
I am not entirely sure what it takes for a non-Jewish American citizen (without Israeli citizenship) to be able to lawfully bring their firearm into the State of Israel. I know that my family has no trouble bringing our weapons in and out of the country, (for obvious reasons) but I don't know the specific regulations on just a regular, gentile American bringing bringing his weapons into Israel, much less carrying them. I'll tell you what I'll do: I'll call the Israeli Embassy on Monday and ask them what the rules are on this (they can't possibly be all that strict), and then I'll post something in this thread about it.
However, once you get the guns into Israel, there shouldn't be to many problems with OC in Israel, especially seeing as how around 95% of the adult Jewish population does it on a daily basis. (By the way, in Erezt-Israel, the age of majority is 13, as that is the age of Bar/Bat Mitzvah.) BUT..... be aware of this; the carry laws in Israel generally apply ONLY to ethnic Jews (yes, even for American Jews) and are very racially discriminatory in nature for obvious reasons. While concealed carry for you in Israel will most definately NOT be an option (its hard enough for Jewish Israeli citizens to get their CCW's), I can't see the military or the National Police making much of a big deal about you open carrying your weapon, as that is the common practice. Even though (and I'm assuming here) you're not racially Jewish or religiously Jewish for that matter, OC is so common in Israel that I really don't think anyone will discover you're non-Jewishness, let alone make to much of a big deal about it, especially if you have a carry permit in the States and have a clean record.
You have to remember, Lonnie, Israel is still a socialist state, and the right to bear arms is not expressly provided for in the Israel Basic Laws. Rather, it is seen as a privilage, provided for by the State. The laws are different there, but not necessarily always enforced. You'll remember that in my original post on this thread, I talked about how when I was talking to the religious man carrying the concealed glock, I discovered that the gun that he was carrying was not the gun that he was registered for/authorized to carry, but I really didn't give a rats ass. That is a very common occurance over there. Laws are not necessarily always enforced, just as long as the 'spririt' of the law hasn't been violated. As a matter-of-fact, I know of MANY times that non-Jews have OC'ed in Israel, been found out, and no action has been taken against them. Here's an example:
A few years ago, a Druze (local, minority Beduin population of non-muslim Arab backround that live in Israel.... essentially Israel's version of Native Americans) man serving actively in the Israeli Army took home his duty weapon (Uzi) while on official military leave, as was at the time allowed by law. Upon arriving back in his home village, he discovered that his family name had been "disgraced" by his neighbor against his sister (I won't go into any more details, as its not an appropriate subject for this sort of forum). He immediately went to his neighbor's household and killed his neighbor's entire family! Well, after that, a law was passed saying that non-Jewish Israeli citizens could no longer carry weapons while not on active military duty (sound familiar?)
Anyway, while I was in the Bank on reservist duty last month, I was at a border station and a Palestinian man came through the security checkpoint OCing a military-issued Uzi slung over the back of his left shoulder. He was not in military fatigues, but did show us his IDF ID card, which stated that he was a Roman Catholic Palestinian, and a Seaman (or some such rank) in the Israeli Navy. Technically, the fact that he was a non-Jew carrying his weapon while off duty should have gotten him arrested and court martialed, but my supervising officer didn't really care, and neigher did I, and, after we checked his weapon to make sure that it was condition 2, we let him go about his business unscathed. Try that with any similar such law in the United States!!!
So you see, while it may technically be illegal for you to carry your sidearm in any way in Israel as a non-Jew (and again, I'm not entirely sure about that) nobody is really going to check, let alone care, that you are a non-Jew OCing a semi-auto handgun for self protection. If you were CCing, well that's an entirely different story altogether, but there shouldn't be to much of a problem with OCing at all.
Hope that helps, and again, I'll call the embassy or someone from the Foreign Ministry on Monday and find out what exactly the deal is with all of this.
Last edited on Sun Apr 22nd, 2007 09:25 am by personaltrainer1987
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GaGunOwner
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Posted: Sun Apr 22nd, 2007 09:31 am |
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Let me say this, I don't want to personally attack or flame you. You support gun rights, we have a common cause. I actually enjoy your posts.
I just don't think that the whole situation should be the way it is, no matter what the state department says.
You can't serve two masters. Even though Israel and the US will probably never go to war the principal of the matter is what I'm getting at. Answer this, IF the US went to war with Israel who would you fight for?
Does anyone else see my point or have a problem with this? An American citizen in a foreign military?
You just don't get it, and I suppose it is your right to not get it.
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Gray Peterson
State Researcher
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Posted: Sun Apr 22nd, 2007 10:47 am |
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GaGunOwner wrote: Let me say this, I don't want to personally attack or flame you. You support gun rights, we have a common cause. I actually enjoy your posts.
I just don't think that the whole situation should be the way it is, no matter what the state department says.
You can't serve two masters. Even though Israel and the US will probably never go to war the principal of the matter is what I'm getting at. Answer this, IF the US went to war with Israel who would you fight for?
Does anyone else see my point or have a problem with this? An American citizen in a foreign military?
You just don't get it, and I suppose it is your right to not get it.
GA Gun Owner, why did you even bring up this issue? Your question has absolutely zero to do with open carry at all, and completely off topic for the subject. You came off flaming Trainer, and implied that he was some sort of traitor. Not cool at all.
His dual citizenship status has absolutely ZERO to do with open carry or the subject of educating anti-gunners. You are in the wrong forum for that kind of crap.
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GaGunOwner
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Posted: Sun Apr 22nd, 2007 11:01 am |
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I never said he was a traitor. I said if he would fight against the US, he would be a traitor. And being in another nation's military is synonymous (to me) with saying you're prepared to do that.
You are right though, this probably isn't the right forum to address this. I just "spoke" my mind. It doesn't have much to do with open carry does it? I will end this topic on this thread from my side of things unless anyone else has a reason to keep it going. Like I said, I enjoy Trainer's post's and I'm glad he is an ally in the 2nd Amendment cause.
Lastly, just because a person agrees with "us" on guns rights, doesn't make the situation (dual citizen, foreign army, etc) right. Maybe you see nothing wrong with it?However, I'm sure that there are people in the Taliban that would agree open carry (and carry in general) should be allowed. 
Last edited on Sun Apr 22nd, 2007 11:04 am by GaGunOwner
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personaltrainer1987
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Posted: Sun Apr 22nd, 2007 11:57 am |
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GaGunOwner,
I have got to be honest with you. I fail to see just how my status as both an American and Israeli citizen affect my ability to remain loyal to the United States of America in any way, at all, what-so-ever! Dual citizenship is something that I was born with and readily embrace! My father and brothers were born with it as well! Only my mother was born into strictly American citizenship. Does that make her more American than I or my other male immediate family memebers? Of course not! My father, my brothers, and I all have two passports, and my father has fought for BOTH nations. Remember America and Israel are REALLY, REALLY CLOSE ALLIES!!! They are co-dependant on each other! I was born on American soil, raised in both countries (but more-so in the U.S.) and plan on serving both countries in their armed forces. This topic is null and void and has NOTHING to do with open carrying.
P.S. - Oh yeah, and one more thing. You had better thank G-d that the IDF does exist, 'cause the War on Terror would literally be IMPOSSIBLE to win without it! Don't believe me? Ask any U.S. military intelligence personell, combat officer on the ground in-country, or any U.S. federal agent in the intelligence, counter-intelligence, or anti-terrorism communities.
Last edited on Sun Apr 22nd, 2007 11:58 am by personaltrainer1987
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DT4E31
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Posted: Sun Apr 22nd, 2007 06:46 pm |
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I disagree. I dont have a problem with anyone serving the military of an ally. A little off track here, what if an american joined the French Foreign Legion for the adventure of serving. Would you consider him a traitor?
Other than all this, trainer, very interesting post, great reading.
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ConditionThree
Activist Member
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Posted: Mon Apr 23rd, 2007 03:08 am |
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DT4E31 wrote: I disagree. I dont have a problem with anyone serving the military of an ally. A little off track here, what if an american joined the French Foreign Legion for the adventure of serving. Would you consider him a traitor?
Other than all this, trainer, very interesting post, great reading.
Further offtopic-
What about the foreign nationals serving in OUR military? Are they infiltrators, traitors, etc? I know that non-citizens or rather, resident aliens serve in our military.
I dont think theres any need for alarm, unless they prove otherwise.
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personaltrainer1987
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Posted: Tue Apr 24th, 2007 04:46 am |
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Lonnie Wilson wrote: Personal Trainer,
Thanks for sharing your experiences. Can you share with us what it takes for a non-Israeli (American citizen specific) to be able to import their own personal firearm into Israel, and to be able to carry it openly? If concealed carry is not an option, I'll certainly take open carry whenever I can get it. If you have any official sources or citations, please share with us. I've always wanted to visit Israel.
By the way Lonnie,
I did call the Israeli Embassy in DC, the consulates in both Boston and New York, and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Jerusalem, and each time I got the same exact response. Today was not the "right day" for me to be asking these sorts of questions. Apparently (and I later got confirmation from my cousin entrenched in Gaza) there has been a "temporary" surge in terror attacks in the occupied zones, and that the government is throwing every "possible resource available" into subduing the insurgents and preventing further attacks and encouragement/incitement of attacks, and they didn't have time to discuss "petty" things with me at that particular time! The also said (very rudely, I might add) that I was a soldier and that I should know the law! (They know better than that, by the way!) I just said fine, that I would call back in a couple of days when they weren't so "busy."
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ChronoSphere
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Posted: Tue Apr 24th, 2007 05:00 am |
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GaGunOwner wrote: blah blah
This thread isn't about dual citizenship - at best your thread-jacking, at worst your trolling. If you really want to discuss it, take it elsewhere. I notice that OC.org doesn't have a general forum.
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Jared
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Posted: Tue Apr 24th, 2007 05:45 am |
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Who cares about his dual citizenship. First off, Israel is one of our best friends in the World. Secondly, who really cares, citizenship is not the root of all rights (rights come from God according to my understanding of the Constitution). Third, this dual citizen already explained himself. There are many dual citizens and even some people who are citizens of 3 or more places around the world.
If you were educated in immigration law and the practices of some foreign entities as I am, some places grant citizenship based on blood; furthermore, some of these places recognize your citizenship for life and there is NOTHING you can do to revoke it. I suppose these people are less of a human being to your standard???
I deal with immigration 5 to 6 days a week, since it's my job. So I speak with a little authority.
Either you are a troll, or, you are really uneducated and a great example of a dumb"citizen".
If you really think Israel is going to go to war with the United States, then you better start loading up on MRE's and get with your local milita to plan to protect your farm when the aliens from outerspace land in a swamp near you 
There is sort of a ongoing joke with some of us who are involved with the pro-RKBA movement in legislatures across the USA and that is.... 6 out of 10 gunowners are morons..... I'm convinced you are one of them to be honest.
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30 cal slut
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Posted: Tue Apr 24th, 2007 11:12 pm |
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Personal Trainer,
Do me a favor and try to knock some sense into Chuckie Schumer sometime, will ya?
I enjoyed reading the story and I am very glad we have a PRO-GUN JEW amongst us.
I have a question ... can a gentile U.S. citizen (civilian) legally carry a weapon in Israel?
I know that countries like Saudi Arabia honor U.S. CCW permits. Wondering what the Israeli system is.
Welcome back by the way. Just remember not to piss off too many CT cops with OC. 
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LeagueOf1291
Regular Member
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Posted: Sat Apr 28th, 2007 05:30 pm |
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GaGunOwner wrote: Let me say this, I don't want to personally attack or flame you. You support gun rights, we have a common cause. I actually enjoy your posts.
I just don't think that the whole situation should be the way it is, no matter what the state department says.
You can't serve two masters. Even though Israel and the US will probably never go to war the principal of the matter is what I'm getting at. Answer this, IF the US went to war with Israel who would you fight for?
Does anyone else see my point or have a problem with this? An American citizen in a foreign military?
You just don't get it, and I suppose it is your right to not get it.
[Emphasis Added]
So your master is the US?? Hey, if you want to be a servant of the USA, go for it, but I'm not. I'm a dual citizen of the US and Switzerland, but neither one is my master -- I'm a citizen. I have no master but Jesus Christ.
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BobCav
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Posted: Sat Apr 28th, 2007 06:26 pm |
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League, you took the words right outta my mouth!
US citizens by birth cannot gain dual citizenship. To declare citizenship in another country, you have to denounce your American citizenship. My wife is a dual citizen of both Brazil and the US and I've researched it plenty. There's something about living in Brazil off my military retirement and not paying US taxes that is very, very appealing.
Lemme tell you, I've been to Israel with the US Navy and there were some hot sexy young ladies wearing cammies and packing UZI's when I was there. Going to the Western Wall we passed through a security checkpoint and I tried my best to get patted down by one of those fine young ladies... she just laughed and told me to keep moving!
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Jared
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Posted: Sun Apr 29th, 2007 02:41 pm |
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BobCav wrote: League, you took the words right outta my mouth!
US citizens by birth cannot gain dual citizenship. To declare citizenship in another country, you have to denounce your American citizenship. My wife is a dual citizen of both Brazil and the US and I've researched it plenty. There's something about living in Brazil off my military retirement and not paying US taxes that is very, very appealing.
Lemme tell you, I've been to Israel with the US Navy and there were some hot sexy young ladies wearing cammies and packing UZI's when I was there. Going to the Western Wall we passed through a security checkpoint and I tried my best to get patted down by one of those fine young ladies... she just laughed and told me to keep moving!
US Citizens by birth can be dual citizens or even citizens of more then 2 places. Many places recognize citizenship by blood. Many of my co-workers are citizens of Mexico because of this. Secondly, you only lose US citizenship if you take an oath of allegance to the other country and you take the oath outside of the United States.
Many US citizens become citizens of the phillipines because you no not need to take an oath of allegiance.
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BobCav
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Posted: Sun Apr 29th, 2007 08:35 pm |
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Jared wrote: BobCav wrote: League, you took the words right outta my mouth!
US citizens by birth cannot gain dual citizenship. To declare citizenship in another country, you have to denounce your American citizenship. My wife is a dual citizen of both Brazil and the US and I've researched it plenty. There's something about living in Brazil off my military retirement and not paying US taxes that is very, very appealing.
Lemme tell you, I've been to Israel with the US Navy and there were some hot sexy young ladies wearing cammies and packing UZI's when I was there. Going to the Western Wall we passed through a security checkpoint and I tried my best to get patted down by one of those fine young ladies... she just laughed and told me to keep moving!
US Citizens by birth can be dual citizens or even citizens of more then 2 places. Many places recognize citizenship by blood. Many of my co-workers are citizens of Mexico because of this. Secondly, you only lose US citizenship if you take an oath of allegance to the other country and you take the oath outside of the United States.
Many US citizens become citizens of the phillipines because you no not need to take an oath of allegiance.
Jared, it looks like you're correct. I researched it ust after I was married and thought I remembered seeing something that prohibited dual citizenship. Must not have looked in the right place. Since my wife is a Brasiliera, I may be eligible for dual citizenship, or at the very least, a permanent visa.
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personaltrainer1987
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Posted: Sun Apr 29th, 2007 08:54 pm |
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Yeah, I was born into dual citizenship. My father and both paternal grandparents are U.S. and Israeli citizens, (my mother is only a U.S. citizen) and thus, I was born into both.
By the way, Lonnie, I STILL have not yet heard back from the Foreign Affairs Ministry in Jerusalem about your question. AS SOON AS I DO, you'll know. (They are sooooo unbelievably lazy, it kills me!)
Here's what I'm thinking right now. Uzi's in Israel are like sand.... they're EVERYWHERE!!! Your best bet is to forget bringing a pistol to the holy land, and just rent an Uzi from the local armory of whereever you happen to visit. I have had TONS of friends of mine go to Israel from the U.S. for vacation, and were able to rent Uzi's from the local armory's. Now, granted, they were ethnically Jewish, but If your an American citizen with a concealed carry permit and a clean record, (not to mention being a certified firearms instructor, which I seem to recall you mentioning that you were in a previous thread) I don't think that they should have too much trouble renting you a weapon. Just go in to the armory and tell them that you would like to rent one out for protection while you are over there.
Just remember.... DO NOT CONCEAL IT!!!!! In Israel, only criminals, Arabs, and people with a DAMN GOOD reason concealed carry.
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personaltrainer1987
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Posted: Sun Apr 29th, 2007 09:21 pm |
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30 cal slut wrote: Personal Trainer,
Do me a favor and try to knock some sense into Chuckie Schumer sometime, will ya?
I enjoyed reading the story and I am very glad we have a PRO-GUN JEW amongst us.
I have a question ... can a gentile U.S. citizen (civilian) legally carry a weapon in Israel?
I know that countries like Saudi Arabia honor U.S. CCW permits. Wondering what the Israeli system is.
Welcome back by the way. Just remember not to piss off too many CT cops with OC.
Connecticut and the United States in general tend to be VERY frustrating for Israeli Jews, who are used to OCing automatic weapons all the time! Over there, if you CC you tend to feel a mix of guilt and concern. Israelis can usually tell when someone is hidding a weapon (jee, I wonder why?) and anyone who does is immediately cause for suspicious. Real men have NOTHING to hide and OC their assualt rifles and submachine guns. A pistol is NOT going to stop some crazed, jihadist Arab high on brown-brown, hell-bent on committing public suicide and taking out as many Jews with him as possible! Thats the job of AUTOMATICS!
When I CC semi-auto pistols over here, to tell you the truth, I feel like I'm doing something wrong! Men protecting their families and friends carry full-auto and have NOTHING to hide! I'm just itching to move out of this People's Republic state and into the south, where its acceptable to at least OC!
Now, I'm about 98% sure that Israel will NOT honor U.S. CCW permits to carry CONCEALED, but OC shouldn't be a problem at all! I'll keep you guys updated with whatever I find out about that.
Now, in terms of pro-gun Jews, currently, the most powerful person in the gun-rights lobby is a Jewish woman! (Seriously, how cool is that!) I'm of course talking about NRA president Sandra Froman.
You are absolutely correct about Chuck Schumer! Let's not forget, however, about my other freedom-hating brethren, such as Diane Feinstein, Sen. Lautenberg, Joe Lieberman (whom I know personally), and, lets not forget about the Anti-christ (no pun intended!) himself..... Michael Bloomberg! (he gives the term K!K# a whole new meaning!!!!)
Now, while I do know Bloomberg's family through some relatives in New York (surprise, surprise), he is a tough man to talk to. VERY stubborn. If I ever do get a chance, however, I will absolutely give him a piece of my mind!
Schumer is a different story altogether, though! Other Jews don't even like him! This is partly because he actually tried to deny being Jewish on some talk show a little while back! Now, he was joking, but his fellow countrymen (so to speak) weren't laughing. We don't tend to think very highly of self-hating or self-depreciating Jews! (Hitler, anyone?)
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GaGunOwner
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Posted: Mon Apr 30th, 2007 02:06 am |
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"I know that countries like Saudi Arabia honor U.S. CCW permits."
Wow! That's great to hear. Do you have anymore info on this?
Thanks
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GaGunOwner
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Posted: Mon Apr 30th, 2007 02:32 am |
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Jared wrote: Who cares about his dual citizenship. First off, Israel is one of our best friends in the World. Secondly, who really cares, citizenship is not the root of all rights (rights come from God according to my understanding of the Constitution). Third, this dual citizen already explained himself. There are many dual citizens and even some people who are citizens of 3 or more places around the world.
If you were educated in immigration law and the practices of some foreign entities as I am, some places grant citizenship based on blood; furthermore, some of these places recognize your citizenship for life and there is NOTHING you can do to revoke it. I suppose these people are less of a human being to your standard???
I deal with immigration 5 to 6 days a week, since it's my job. So I speak with a little authority.
Either you are a troll, or, you are really uneducated and a great example of a dumb"citizen".
If you really think Israel is going to go to war with the United States, then you better start loading up on MRE's and get with your local milita to plan to protect your farm when the aliens from outerspace land in a swamp near you
There is sort of a ongoing joke with some of us who are involved with the pro-RKBA movement in legislatures across the USA and that is.... 6 out of 10 gunowners are morons..... I'm convinced you are one of them to be honest.
I wasn't going to write another response but others have continued to prod me. I do not wish to contiune the bad blood that I seemed to have caused by speaking my mind. I still stand behind my original statements, but this is a gun forum, not a citizenship forum. I'll keep my posts focused on guns from now on. On a previous thread, I stated that I was done talking about this unless others wanted to continue. Are we done?
I am not a troll, I am not an uneducated person, nor am I a dumb citizen. Just because you happen to disagree with me; that doesn't make me one of those three. I venture to guess that I am more informed about the RTKBA and politics in general than a large portion of the population (including pro-gun people). I love my country and I am educated.
I thought that I stated that we wouldn't go to war with Israel???
Anyway, what a joke calling your fellow American gun owners "morons." Why don't we get that out in a press release to the anti's. Some how you are elite?
I like this board so I am done typing on this topic. I wish to focus on guns and the 2nd amendment.
Thanks
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glocknroll
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Apr 30th, 2007 03:08 am |
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personaltrainer1987 wrote: 30 cal slut wrote: Personal Trainer,
Do me a favor and try to knock some sense into Chuckie Schumer sometime, will ya?
I enjoyed reading the story and I am very glad we have a PRO-GUN JEW amongst us.
I have a question ... can a gentile U.S. citizen (civilian) legally carry a weapon in Israel?
I know that countries like Saudi Arabia honor U.S. CCW permits. Wondering what the Israeli system is.
Welcome back by the way. Just remember not to piss off too many CT cops with OC.
Connecticut and the United States in general tend to be VERY frustrating for Israeli Jews, who are used to OCing automatic weapons all the time! Over there, if you CC you tend to feel a mix of guilt and concern. Israelis can usually tell when someone is hidding a weapon (jee, I wonder why?) and anyone who does is immediately cause for suspicious. Real men have NOTHING to hide and OC their assualt rifles and submachine guns. A pistol is NOT going to stop some crazed, jihadist Arab high on brown-brown, hell-bent on committing public suicide and taking out as many Jews with him as possible! Thats the job of AUTOMATICS!
When I CC semi-auto pistols over here, to tell you the truth, I feel like I'm doing something wrong! Men protecting their families and friends carry full-auto and have NOTHING to hide! I'm just itching to move out of this People's Republic state and into the south, where its acceptable to at least OC!
Now, I'm about 98% sure that Israel will NOT honor U.S. CCW permits to carry CONCEALED, but OC shouldn't be a problem at all! I'll keep you guys updated with whatever I find out about that.
Now, in terms of pro-gun Jews, currently, the most powerful person in the gun-rights lobby is a Jewish woman! (Seriously, how cool is that!) I'm of course talking about NRA president Sandra Froman.
You are absolutely correct about Chuck Schumer! Let's not forget, however, about my other freedom-hating brethren, such as Diane Feinstein, Sen. Lautenberg, Joe Lieberman (whom I know personally), and, lets not forget about the Anti-christ (no pun intended!) himself..... Michael Bloomberg! (he gives the term K!K# a whole new meaning!!!!)
Now, while I do know Bloomberg's family through some relatives in New York (surprise, surprise), he is a tough man to talk to. VERY stubborn. If I ever do get a chance, however, I will absolutely give him a piece of my mind!
Schumer is a different story altogether, though! Other Jews don't even like him! This is partly because he actually tried to deny being Jewish on some talk show a little while back! Now, he was joking, but his fellow countrymen (so to speak) weren't laughing. We don't tend to think very highly of self-hating or self-depreciating Jews! (Hitler, anyone?)
I'm more than a little surprised that you didn't mention the JPFO (Jews For The Preservation of Firearms Ownership). I am not Jewish, but I understand the meaning of "Never Again". When the JPFO says never again, they mean it. They are dedicated to making sure. As far as I am concerned, they are among the foremost firearms rights groups in this country. I don't know of any other 2nd amendment rights group that offers 80% finished AR15 and 1911 receivers and frames so that free Americans can build their own guns, free from any paper trail.
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personaltrainer1987
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Posted: Mon Apr 30th, 2007 06:23 am |
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Glocknroll,
I apologize. I absolutely should have mentioned my personal favorite! I am a card carrying member of the JPFO!!!
"NEVER AGAIN!" That was what we swore at my swearing in ceremony at Masada! I'm surprised/impressed that you know about that! Most gentiles don't have ANY idea what that means.
Last edited on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 07:17 am by personaltrainer1987
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30 cal slut
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Posted: Mon Apr 30th, 2007 02:35 pm |
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| Never again. Ever.
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glocknroll
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Posted: Tue May 1st, 2007 01:57 am |
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personaltrainer1987 wrote: Glocknroll,
I apologize. I absolutely should have mentioned my personal favorite! I am a card carrying member of the JPFO!!!
"NEVER AGAIN!" That was what we swore at my swearing in ceremony at Masada! I'm surprised/impressed that you know about that! Most gentiles don't have ANY idea what that means.
Any credit for my limited knowledge of Judaism goes to my best friend from high school, who was/is Jewish, and was always willing to answer my questions about his people/culture/religion.
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teknoid
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue May 1st, 2007 02:14 am |
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I have visited Israel on several occasions (mostly in the Tel-Aviv area) on buisiness, and enjoyed it immensely. The people were very friendly towards me, and also very well armed. I felt almost as safe as if I had been carrying my own. The first lesson I learned was that renting a car was a big mistake. The english sub-titles on the street signs are pretty small, and I can't read Hebrew. Wrong turns in Israel are not a good idea, especially when it is onto a street containing a barracks. Good thing I don't look palestinian! They don't appreciate uninvited vehicles there, with good reason.
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personaltrainer1987
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Posted: Tue May 1st, 2007 02:22 am |
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teknoid wrote: I have visited Israel on several occasions (mostly in the Tel-Aviv area) on buisiness, and enjoyed it immensely. The people were very friendly towards me, and also very well armed. I felt almost as safe as if I had been carrying my own. The first lesson I learned was that renting a car was a big mistake. The english sub-titles on the street signs are pretty small, and I can't read Hebrew. Wrong turns in Israel are not a good idea, especially when it is onto a street containing a barracks. Good thing I don't look palestinian! They don't appreciate uninvited vehicles there, with good reason.
Oh no!!! You didn't!  PLEASE tell me you didn't enter into a secured zone! It's a good thing that you didn't get shot! Consider yourself lucky to be alive. I've known people that have inadvertantly done similar things and have not been so lucky! We take that kind of thing VERY seriously.
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teknoid
Regular Member
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Posted: Tue May 1st, 2007 02:36 am |
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personaltrainer1987 wrote: teknoid wrote: I have visited Israel on several occasions (mostly in the Tel-Aviv area) on buisiness, and enjoyed it immensely. The people were very friendly towards me, and also very well armed. I felt almost as safe as if I had been carrying my own. The first lesson I learned was that renting a car was a big mistake. The english sub-titles on the street signs are pretty small, and I can't read Hebrew. Wrong turns in Israel are not a good idea, especially when it is onto a street containing a barracks. Good thing I don't look palestinian! They don't appreciate uninvited vehicles there, with good reason.
Oh no!!! You didn't! PLEASE tell me you didn't enter into a secured zone! It's a good thing that you didn't get shot! Consider yourself lucky to be alive. I've known people that have inadvertantly done similar things and have not been so lucky! We take that kind of thing VERY seriously.
Yes, I did. The looks I got just screamed "How stupid can you be?"
I missed a turn, and had intended to just go around the block. Bad move. As soon as I got to the hotel, I called Avis (3 doors from the hotel) and asked them to pick the car up. I took a cab from then on. All I had to remember was XX Ygal Alon, and the name of the hotel. I didn't really need a car anyway, walking was fun! (and safer) I'm sure the New Yorkers love it there, since everyone drives the same! That was on the first visit. I never drove there again. It just isn't smart if you can't read the signs.
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personaltrainer1987
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Posted: Tue May 1st, 2007 05:50 am |
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teknoid wrote: personaltrainer1987 wrote: teknoid wrote: I have visited Israel on several occasions (mostly in the Tel-Aviv area) on buisiness, and enjoyed it immensely. The people were very friendly towards me, and also very well armed. I felt almost as safe as if I had been carrying my own. The first lesson I learned was that renting a car was a big mistake. The english sub-titles on the street signs are pretty small, and I can't read Hebrew. Wrong turns in Israel are not a good idea, especially when it is onto a street containing a barracks. Good thing I don't look palestinian! They don't appreciate uninvited vehicles there, with good reason.
Oh no!!! You didn't! PLEASE tell me you didn't enter into a secured zone! It's a good thing that you didn't get shot! Consider yourself lucky to be alive. I've known people that have inadvertantly done similar things and have not been so lucky! We take that kind of thing VERY seriously.
Yes, I did. The looks I got just screamed "How stupid can you be?"
I missed a turn, and had intended to just go around the block. Bad move. As soon as I got to the hotel, I called Avis (3 doors from the hotel) and asked them to pick the car up. I took a cab from then on. All I had to remember was XX Ygal Alon, and the name of the hotel. I didn't really need a car anyway, walking was fun! (and safer) I'm sure the New Yorkers love it there, since everyone drives the same! That was on the first visit. I never drove there again. It just isn't smart if you can't read the signs.
HAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! Laughing my ASS off!!!! I can almost picture it in my head! Lemme guess... The soldiers were like 18-19 or something?!
I would have died laughing!!!! (literally) They must have absolutely FREAKED out!!! Images of my countrymen @#$%ting themselves out of fear and bewilderment come to mind!
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teknoid
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Posted: Tue May 1st, 2007 09:11 pm |
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The look on their faces just screamed "Stupid #%$@(* tourist!" to me. I wasted no time in turning around!
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30 cal slut
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Posted: Wed May 2nd, 2007 08:42 pm |
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here's a story on Saudi Arabia - sorry for the late response.
http://www.ccrkba.org/pub/rkba/press-releases/CC_-_RELEASE_Saudi_gun_permits.html
NEWS RELEASE
Citizens Committee for the
Right to Keep and Bear Arms
12500 N.E. Tenth Place
Bellevue, WA 98005
CCRKBA HAILS SAUDI ARABIA ON FIREARMS, ASKS WHAT'S WRONG WITH OTHER COUNTRIES
For Immediate Release: June 25, 2004
The Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms (CCRKBA) today hailed an announcement by the government in Saudi Arabia that foreigners who feel threatened by a wave of militant violence can carry guns for their personal protection. The report was carried by the Reuters news agency.
"This sensible move by the Saudi government should send a signal to other nations around the world, where citizens have been essentially disarmed and left to the mercy of a growing criminal element," said CCRKBA Chairman Alan Gottlieb. "For example, Great Britain, Canada and Australia have all imposed horribly restrictive gun laws on their citizens, and look what's happened. Violent crime has soared, and the public is defenseless..
"In Saudi Arabia," Gottlieb continued, "Interior Minister Prince Hayef bin Abdulaziz observed Thursday that 'a Saudi has the right to carry a weapon' and he noted that any foreign resident who fears for his or her safety could get a permit to carry a firearm, too."
Prince Hayef noted in his announcement that he meant "a personal weapon which a person can have in his own country."
"Certainly," Gottlieb noted, "Prince Hayef would be baffled at the way citizens in so-called civilized nations have been left defenseless against criminals and thugs, while in his own country, the government is now allowing even foreigners to go legally armed for their own protection. It appears that the Prince fully understands that citizens, and even non-citizens, are entitled to protect themselves against criminal attack.
"We are gratified by this gesture of the Saudi government," Gottlieb said, "toward the safety of foreigners living within their borders, including many American citizens. We think the leaders of other countries, not to mention the governors of states like Wisconsin, Illinois, Kansas and Nebraska-where concealed carry remains illegal for law-abiding Americans-could take a lesson from prince Hayef."
With more than 650,000 members and supporters nationwide, the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms is one of the nation's premier gun rights organizations. As a non-profit organization, the Citizens Committee is dedicated to preserving firearms freedoms through active lobbying of elected officials and facilitating grass-roots organization of gun rights activists in local communities throughout the United States. The Citizens Committee can be reached by phone at (425) 454-4911, on the internet at http://www.ccrkba.org or by email to www@ccrkba.org.
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30 cal slut
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Posted: Wed May 2nd, 2007 08:46 pm |
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http://www.asharqalawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=1&id=8792
Saudi Arabia Introduces New Gun Laws
Saturday 28 April 2007
By Huda al Saleh
Riyadh, Asharq Al-Awsat- The Saudi Ministry of Interior has doubled the duration of licenses to own or carry a weapon to ten years [for individuals] and to five years for marksmanship clubs and stores that sell weapons under a new bill for arms and ammunition.
The bill which was approved recently by the Interior Minister, Prince Naif Bin Abdulaziz, has specified that the age for practicing shooting at clubs would be set at 18 and a license to own and carry a weapon would be granted at the age of 21.
The bill that clarified the articles of the 63rd act that was published over two years ago after the approval of the Saudi cabinet in August 2005, stipulated a bank guarantee of 500,000 Saudi Riyals (SR), (US $133,000) for those wishing to trade in weapons and permitted licensing stores that sell arms.
The bill is to permit the use of military, personal, and government weapons and ammunition according to the directives. The bill also includes allowing the possibility of obtaining a license to repair personal firearms and air rifles from the Ministry of Interior.
Asharq Al Awsat obtained the details of the bill that looks at the conditions for acquiring a permit to repair personal firearms, hunting weapons, and rifles; in addition to permits for personal purchases of arms and possession and penalties.
The bill explained all conditions and the registration process for marksmanship clubs, which includes the applicant body, club specifications, and the essence of controlling the clubs including the conditions for accepting members. The bill has limited the right to establishing marksmanship clubs to Saudi citizens over 25 years of age, providing the applicant is without prior security or criminal convictions and has no record of mental illness. The bill prohibits clubs from practice until after attaining membership of the Arab Saudi Marksmanship Federation.
Regarding the conditions and specifications of clubs, the bill stipulates that these centers are situated far from any significant buildings, residential areas, schools, hospitals, social probation centers, public markets and petrol stations. The bill imposed the construction of two stockrooms inside each club, solidly built according to the technical specifications of weapons and ammunitions warehouses, with electric gates for metal detection at the entrance and the installation of surveillance systems.
The bill also permitted the practicing of marksmanship for boys aged 12 years and above as long as a guardian is present and allowed clubs that hold training courses for those working in armed security institutions and companies only under the supervision of public security, with the club being responsible for providing specialized trainers and assistant trainers in shooting competitions approved by the international federation and according to the conditions of the Arab Saudi Marksmanship Federation.
The bill has specified the conditions for applicants wishing to obtain a license for carrying or owning personal arms and hunting weapons to be of no younger than 21 years of age, with no criminal record, in addition to being of sound mental and physical health. The licenses expire five years from the date of issuance for all types of permits such as to import, sell, or repair personal arms, air rifles, vintage rifles and permits for shooting and hunting clubs, the armed private security institutions and companies. These licenses can be renewed for the same period. Licenses to carry or possess personal weapons are valid for 10 years providing it is renewed three months prior to the expiry date.
Regarding the commercial activity of the arms trade, the bill has outlined conditions for those applying for permits to import personal firearms, air rifles, and hunting weapons to be at least 25 years of age with a valid commercial registration and a bank guarantee of SR500,000 (US $133,000). The applicant is granted a period of six months to acquire a certificate from the authorities of public security and civil defense to confirm the existence of a showroom and two warehouses that comply with the conditions and standards of safety and security for the issuance of a ministerial approval for a five-year license that is renewable.
In reference to the eighth article, the bill specifies places and times during which the carrying of a registered firearm is prohibited; such as within the vicinity of the two holy mosques and other mosques, near military grounds and oil bases and areas that clearly state that they should not be approached. In addition, government offices, airports, schools, public gatherings, or private and public celebrations are also not to be approached whilst carrying a registered weapon. The bill approved a penalty of SR1000 (US $226) for those who fail to comply with the regulations.
The bill outlined the conditions for obtaining a permit to repair personal weapons and air rifles, according to the eleventh clause of section nine, “to be a Saudi citizen who meets the conditions to be granted a license for weapons”. The local police and civil defense departments conduct random inspections on establishments to monitor the level of compliance to the set conditions, and to submit the results of the inspection to the governor of the province.
The bill referred to severe penalties for violators of the act, with a maximum penalty of 30 years imprisonment and penalties of no more than SR 300,000 (US $80,000) in the event of being convicted of smuggling or using military or personal weapons, parts of weapons, selling or buying weapons or ammunition in order to breach internal security.
The bill also refers to the imprisonment of all those who have been proven to have purchased or sold a personal weapon or ammunition without a permit for a period of no longer than two years and/or a fine of no more than SR 7000 (US $1866). In addition, it stipulates the penalty of eight months imprisonment and a fine of SR 6000 (US $1500) for those who have been proved to have carried a personal weapon or ammunition without a license.
Regarding penalties for institutions and companies or any other establishment that has violated any of the set regulations; these will be subject to all penalties prescribed in the act except for imprisonment.
Section 42 of the act has set a period of six months imprisonment and the payment of SR 3000 (US $800) for those proven to have withheld information from the authorities about the trading of illegal arms or smuggling.
The bill has set conditions for employing non-Saudis that is permissible only after obtaining a permit, repairing weapons only after taking part in a training course through the public security authority or the gaining of an approved educational certificate from the responsible authority (public security), not repairing any unregistered weapons, in addition to not modifying any weapon or ammunition to make it more dangerous
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personaltrainer1987
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Posted: Thu May 3rd, 2007 12:19 am |
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Well, I'm not going to say that I care for the Saudi's AT ALL... but good for them.
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aresaypee
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Posted: Sat May 19th, 2007 02:13 am |
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Thanks for the interesting story. Didn't even know people open carried in Israel and that's interesting Uiz's are so damn cheap there. That rocks. The ignorance and fear of the female new yorker was also interesting.
Do they allow silencers?Last edited on Sat May 19th, 2007 02:37 am by aresaypee
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personaltrainer1987
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Posted: Sat May 26th, 2007 10:47 am |
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| It's never come up! Come to think of it... I've never actually seen a silensor used in Israel before, except by the IDF or Police.
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dng
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Posted: Tue Jul 17th, 2007 08:31 pm |
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| Why can't we carry guns like Israel? I guess we should have the right according to the constitution, but one would definitely be arrested!
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UTOC-45-44
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Posted: Tue Jul 17th, 2007 10:01 pm |
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BobCav wrote: Jared wrote: BobCav wrote: League, you took the words right outta my mouth!
US citizens by birth cannot gain dual citizenship. To declare citizenship in another country, you have to denounce your American citizenship. My wife is a dual citizen of both Brazil and the US and I've researched it plenty. There's something about living in Brazil off my military retirement and not paying US taxes that is very, very appealing.
Lemme tell you, I've been to Israel with the US Navy and there were some hot sexy young ladies wearing cammies and packing UZI's when I was there. Going to the Western Wall we passed through a security checkpoint and I tried my best to get patted down by one of those fine young ladies... she just laughed and told me to keep moving!
US Citizens by birth can be dual citizens or even citizens of more then 2 places. Many places recognize citizenship by blood. Many of my co-workers are citizens of Mexico because of this. Secondly, you only lose US citizenship if you take an oath of allegance to the other country and you take the oath outside of the United States.
Many US citizens become citizens of the phillipines because you no not need to take an oath of allegiance.
Jared, it looks like you're correct. I researched it ust after I was married and thought I remembered seeing something that prohibited dual citizenship. Must not have looked in the right place. Since my wife is a Brasiliera, I may be eligible for dual citizenship, or at the very least, a permanent visa.
Yea, Bob I do remember that You have a Wife from Brazil.
Brazilian women...,I tell you.
I had a "hand-2-hand combat" with a Brazilian woman once. And finally my "Gun" went off in "self-defense".She didn't mind. I was "OCing" so she could see it coming.Oh my...one of the best "AD's" I ever had
Anyways..., I'm a Swedish Citizen ( White Male ) and have been here in the U.S for 9 years ( just shy of 2week ) and I just a few months ago applied for a U.S Citizenship. Am I then A Bad Person GaGunOwner.???
I've Paid my dues ( taxes ) and ALL the $$$ for all documents to be able to get this Privilege. It has cost me about $1500 all-in-all + ALL THE STRESS.
(Believe me if you haven't gone thru the rigamaro you will not understand what it takes. 1 time I didn't have a Birth Cerificate stamped from Sweden and INS would allow a faxed copy from Sweden (this was to get my Work Permit,just because one marries a U.S Citizen one does not automatically get to work,there is ALOT of work to get there). My dad had to drive 45 min to get the Document and a Notary Public to validate it. He then had to successfully fax it to a location I was at ( Kinko's ). I was about 30 min away from my deadline to have ALL documents turned in or I WOULD BE DEPORTED,and I would not have had the opportunity to return to the U.S for at least 5 years.)
So if I shouldn't be able to have a Dual-Citizenship I then should not be able to have a Residency Permit either??? and therefore NOT be able to "Bear arms" to Protect my Beautiful wife, my ugly face and Family and friends + everyone else that needs protection ???
Why do you frown upon Dual- Citizenship ???
Just my .45
Last edited on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 12:52 am by UTOC-45-44
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BB62
State Researcher
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Posted: Wed Jul 18th, 2007 02:58 am |
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Forgive me if I missed it, but what did you find out about non-Jewish Americans OCing in Israel?
VERY interesting information on this thread. COOL!
Last edited on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 02:59 am by BB62
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Jared
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 06:45 pm |
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BobCav wrote: Jared wrote: BobCav wrote: League, you took the words right outta my mouth!
US citizens by birth cannot gain dual citizenship. To declare citizenship in another country, you have to denounce your American citizenship. My wife is a dual citizen of both Brazil and the US and I've researched it plenty. There's something about living in Brazil off my military retirement and not paying US taxes that is very, very appealing.
Lemme tell you, I've been to Israel with the US Navy and there were some hot sexy young ladies wearing cammies and packing UZI's when I was there. Going to the Western Wall we passed through a security checkpoint and I tried my best to get patted down by one of those fine young ladies... she just laughed and told me to keep moving!
US Citizens by birth can be dual citizens or even citizens of more then 2 places. Many places recognize citizenship by blood. Many of my co-workers are citizens of Mexico because of this. Secondly, you only lose US citizenship if you take an oath of allegance to the other country and you take the oath outside of the United States.
Many US citizens become citizens of the phillipines because you no not need to take an oath of allegiance.
Jared, it looks like you're correct. I researched it ust after I was married and thought I remembered seeing something that prohibited dual citizenship. Must not have looked in the right place. Since my wife is a Brasiliera, I may be eligible for dual citizenship, or at the very least, a permanent visa.
I hope I'm right, I enforce immigration law on a daily basis. As long as you do not take an oath of allegiance in your legal name, you will be ok. The US can not stop a foreign entity from granting you citizenship. Just be careful, some places have mandatory time in service, if you were visiting and called into service, while you are there, their is only so much the American Embassy can do for you
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Jared
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 06:49 pm |
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UTOC-45-44 wrote: BobCav wrote: Jared wrote: BobCav wrote: League, you took the words right outta my mouth!
US citizens by birth cannot gain dual citizenship. To declare citizenship in another country, you have to denounce your American citizenship. My wife is a dual citizen of both Brazil and the US and I've researched it plenty. There's something about living in Brazil off my military retirement and not paying US taxes that is very, very appealing.
Lemme tell you, I've been to Israel with the US Navy and there were some hot sexy young ladies wearing cammies and packing UZI's when I was there. Going to the Western Wall we passed through a security checkpoint and I tried my best to get patted down by one of those fine young ladies... she just laughed and told me to keep moving!
US Citizens by birth can be dual citizens or even citizens of more then 2 places. Many places recognize citizenship by blood. Many of my co-workers are citizens of Mexico because of this. Secondly, you only lose US citizenship if you take an oath of allegance to the other country and you take the oath outside of the United States.
Many US citizens become citizens of the phillipines because you no not need to take an oath of allegiance.
Jared, it looks like you're correct. I researched it ust after I was married and thought I remembered seeing something that prohibited dual citizenship. Must not have looked in the right place. Since my wife is a Brasiliera, I may be eligible for dual citizenship, or at the very least, a permanent visa.
Yea, Bob I do remember that You have a Wife from Brazil.
Brazilian women...,I tell you.
I had a "hand-2-hand combat" with a Brazilian woman once. And finally my "Gun" went off in "self-defense".She didn't mind. I was "OCing" so she could see it coming.Oh my...one of the best "AD's" I ever had
Anyways..., I'm a Swedish Citizen ( White Male ) and have been here in the U.S for 9 years ( just shy of 2week ) and I just a few months ago applied for a U.S Citizenship. Am I then A Bad Person GaGunOwner.???
I've Paid my dues ( taxes ) and ALL the $$$ for all documents to be able to get this Privilege. It has cost me about $1500 all-in-all + ALL THE STRESS.
(Believe me if you haven't gone thru the rigamaro you will not understand what it takes. 1 time I didn't have a Birth Cerificate stamped from Sweden and INS would allow a faxed copy from Sweden (this was to get my Work Permit,just because one marries a U.S Citizen one does not automatically get to work,there is ALOT of work to get there). My dad had to drive 45 min to get the Document and a Notary Public to validate it. He then had to successfully fax it to a location I was at ( Kinko's ). I was about 30 min away from my deadline to have ALL documents turned in or I WOULD BE DEPORTED,and I would not have had the opportunity to return to the U.S for at least 5 years.)
So if I shouldn't be able to have a Dual-Citizenship I then should not be able to have a Residency Permit either??? and therefore NOT be able to "Bear arms" to Protect my Beautiful wife, my ugly face and Family and friends + everyone else that needs protection ???
Why do you frown upon Dual- Citizenship ???
Just my .45
I agree, anyone who says non-citizens have no rights are bigots to be honest. If your clean and are not disqualified, they you too have a right to keep and bear arms, after all, it is a fundamental human right, right?
People who say only citizens should be able to have guns are either one of two things,
1. gun grabbers
or
2. live under a rock and would probably change their views quickly if they married someone and in the time that the spouse is not a citizen (5 years minimum from when you become a permenant resident) they somehow realize that the person they love should be entitled to CCW permits, self-defense and all that.
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BB62
State Researcher
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Posted: Tue Jul 24th, 2007 02:06 am |
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| Is it really necessary to quote ALL of a previous post in order to add one's comments?? Last edited on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 02:06 am by BB62
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carnaby
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Posted: Thu Aug 30th, 2007 05:26 am |
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"as long as you are a Jewish citizen"
A Jewish citizen, or just an Israeli citizen? Can the Arab Israeli's carry guns too? They do serve in the IDF, IIRC.
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ForeignDude
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Posted: Thu Aug 30th, 2007 10:37 am |
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I wonder if there are any provisions for military officers fro other countries to carry in Israel -- easier, more difficult (who knows?). I am an officer in the US Army, and I'd love to visit Israel with my family -- to show my kid the deep, rich history of the region.
I definitely want to go now...
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thnycav
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Posted: Tue Sep 18th, 2007 07:55 pm |
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Everyone from 18 to 55 is part of the IDF that is why they can carry and the government gives them their weapons. I spent 6 months on Sinai duty with the 101st ABN and got to know a few of them in the IDF.
Second thing citizenship is determined 2 ways by the Blood ( the citizenship of the Mother) or by the land the physical place you where born. As far as Israel goes they have the right of return which means if you are of the Jewish faith you are automatically a Israeli citizen.
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Wynder
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Posted: Tue Sep 18th, 2007 08:20 pm |
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thnycav wrote: Everyone from 18 to 55 is part of the IDF that is why they can carry and the government gives them their weapons. I spent 6 months on Sinai duty with the 101st ABN and got to know a few of them in the IDF.
Second thing citizenship is determined 2 ways by the Blood ( the citizenship of the Mother) or by the land the physical place you where born. As far as Israel goes they have the right of return which means if you are of the Jewish faith you are automatically a Israeli citizen.
It essentially sounds like our founding fathers' definition of a 'militia'... any able body willing to defend his or her country. This is how America might be today were we to have enemies actively engaging our borders.
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CPerdue
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Posted: Wed Sep 19th, 2007 01:52 am |
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GaGunOwner wrote: snip...
Does anyone else see my point or have a problem with this? An American citizen in a foreign military?
Lafayette Escadrille. Flying Tigers. 'nuff said - uneducated moron.
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Wynder
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Posted: Wed Sep 19th, 2007 02:52 am |
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CPerdue wrote: GaGunOwner wrote: snip...
Does anyone else see my point or have a problem with this? An American citizen in a foreign military?
Lafayette Escadrille. Flying Tigers. 'nuff said - uneducated moron.
God bless them.
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thnycav
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Posted: Wed Sep 19th, 2007 01:29 pm |
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| You are right when the founding Fathers wrote the Constitution and bill of rights a militia was all able bodied Free men between 18 and 55. They also wanted to make sure that if the government did go too far they would have the means to overthrow it.
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HankT
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Posted: Wed Sep 19th, 2007 01:59 pm |
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CPerdue wrote: GaGunOwner wrote: snip...
Does anyone else see my point or have a problem with this? An American citizen in a foreign military?
Lafayette Escadrille. Flying Tigers. 'nuff said - uneducated moron.
That's not very nice, CPerdue. Tsk, tsk. 
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Hef
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Posted: Fri Sep 21st, 2007 03:01 am |
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Ignorance is not an admirable quality.
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Fisherman48768
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Posted: Sun Oct 21st, 2007 05:08 pm |
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personaltrainer1987 wrote: Hey guys,
This wasn't in New York City or even in the U.S. for that matter, but the couple that I had the conversation with were fellow Jews from Williamsburg (Brooklyn), and were visiting Tel Aviv, so I feel that it should go in the New York forums.
Backround: I just got back from Tel Aviv on Tuesday, April 10, (my Birthday, by the way!) and I had a VERY interesting experience while I was there. You see, as I've mentioned before, I'm a dual citizen with both the U.S. and Israel, so when I was 18 I enlisted into the Israeli Army for 1 1/2 years. Since I'm a dual, I was able to not only choose whether or not I would serve altogether, but if I wanted to serve for the full 3 years or for half of that time. Being patriotic, I decided to serve, but being smart, I decided to serve for half of the usual time! However, because I did the 1 1/2 years of full-time active service option, I have to remain a reservist for 5 years from the time that my enlistment ended. Thus, my enlistment ends on my 25th birthday.
As I am still a reservist in the Israeli Defense Forces, I have to report to Israel for mandatory service and training for 4 weeks out of every year. So, I went over, spent a week going through military training and qualifications/tests, and then spent 3 weeks serving in the conflict zones in the west bank.
I LOVED IT!!!! In Israel, EVERYBODY open carry's automatic weapons (8 times out of ten, its an Uzi, as they only cost about a couple hundred dollars in Israel and the government hands them out like candy anyway!) whether they are on active duty, reserves, or no longer serve. (Everybody is still in the officially recognized "populus militia") You literally walk around, and almost everybody you see from like age 14 and up (sometimes younger) has an assualt rifle, a sub-machine gun, or a machine pistol slung over their shoulder or riding on their hip! Concealed carry is HIGHLY frowned upon and very suspicious, as people tend to wonder what exactly it is that you're trying to hide by concealing your weapon. It's seen as criminal! You need a special permit to carry concealed, and their not very easy to come by (although they are issuing more and more lately.) You literally have to get fingerprinted and registered, interview with a government official in charge of permit issuance, declare your allegiance to the State of Israel, prove that you are religious, and have to declare a formal reason that you can prove as to why you need a permit to carry concealed! (And you guy's thought that New York was bad!) Simply wanting one isn't enough. You have to live in/work in/travel regularly in, one of the conflict zones, or work in a job that requires it, etc. Then, you can only CC with a pre-approved firearm, and get that firearm registered and prove that you've recieved a heavy amount of training with that firearm in a government-approved course. If you are caught carrying any other firearm on your person concealed than the one that you are authorized to carry, you can get arrested! The only exeption to all of this if you want to carry concealed is if you are an off-duty police officer or are/were a lieutenant or above in the IDF. Meaning, if at any point in your mandatory military service you are or were a lieutenant (be it active, reserve, or honorably retired,) you automatically have the right to carry concealed, should you so choose. But, their is no real reason for it. The natural alternative is to just carry open, which their are literally NO restrictions on, at all, what-so-ever, as long as you are a Jewish citizen.
Anyway, about that OC experience. So, my last weekend in Israel, its a Friday afternoon and I just finish all of my service duties in the Bank for the year! (that's what we call the West Bank). Me and 2 of my army buddies head out for Tel Aviv on the other side of the country, 'cause we still have 1 day left of reservist military service, and since we have to fly out of Tel Aviv anyway, we've been reassigned to that city for the remainder of our tour. But now its the Sabbath and we have the rest of the day and Saturday off. We get to Tel Aviv, park the army jeep at the motor pool, go up to our hotel rooms, and change out of our military fatigues. We then go out for a day on the town. It's our day off, and we're gonna make the most of it! All of us are dressed in civilian clothes, jeans, sneakers, and t-shirts. The only thing identifying us as IDF is our olive drap, army issued kippah's (yarmulkas), but then again, everybody wears those, as every adult has served and they are a symbol of supporting our troops. We're also OCing with our duty weapons (the full-size Uzi 9mm sub-machine gun) slung over our shoulders by a rifle sling. In Tel Aviv, we fit right in! (Try THAT anywhere in the U.S.!) Now granted, we're carrying Israeli-style (full mag, empty chamber, safety on as that's the law) but hey, you win some, you lose some.
We go into a coffe shop (VERY popular in Israel) in downtown right by the beach, and my two buddies go head off to the little boys room. I walk up to the counter and have a seat at the bar, looking at the menu. Just then, a husband and wife walk into the shop and stroll over to where I'm sitting. As they sit down on my right at the two empty bar stools there, the wife brushes up against my Uzi. Immediately, she notices it (I don't know how in the hell she missed it in the first place) and she starts to panic! Then, I quickly find out why. She turns to her husband on her right, and says to him in a VERY audible, yet wisper-style tone, "Herb, that kid is wearing a machine gun!!" Here's the catch... she said it in English in a very clear, very distinct Brooklyn Jewish accent! She figured that since she was in Israel and that I was a young guy, I couldn't speak English, just Hebrew (which, in all fairness, is often times the case with young men and women in Israel.)
Her husband says to her, also in a Brooklyn Jewish accent (most likely Williamsburg area) in English, "Well, honey, that's what they do here. We've seen that a lot since we arrived. Why is it surprising you now?" She replies, "Yeah, but this kid looks really, really young, like a teenager! And I just brushed up against a machine gun!"
All the while, I'm just sitting there, looking at the menu, pretending like I can't understand what they're saying! The wife says, "Herb, you speak Hebrew! Would you mind talking to this kid for me?! Ask him why he's wearing an assault rifle!" The husband replies, "Look Marge, I'm not intruding into this kid's personal business! I'm sure that he has some sort of reason for carrying that thing. Besides, there's nothing illegal about what he's doing in this country!"
Marge replies, "Well, he's just a kid (I do look really young, in all fairness) and he's making me nervous with that thing! Would you just talk to him?!"
Herb, "Alright, alright. I'll talk to him, I'll talk to 'em. But don't blame me if he gets pissed of and shoots us both!"
Turning to me, and tapping me on the right shoulder, Herb says to me in really crappy, indistict, heavily accented Hebrew, "Hey kid, my wife wants to know; Why are you carrying around a machine gun?!"
Slowly, I shift my body around to face both him and his wife, both looking at me very intently, and respond in a clear, Connecticut accent in English, "Why do you think?!"
Herb and Marge look astonished! I wish I could describe for you the look on their faces! It was priceless! Marge says, fumbling around her words a lot, "You're an AMERICAN!!!!" I replied, "Yeah, I'm a dual citizen. I spent my early years growing up between Israel and Connecticut, and then i moved permanently to the States when I was a teenager."
Herb; "But, but, why do you carry a gun?! And a machine gun for that matter?! You're an American!!! We don't do that sort of thing!"
I replied; "Well, then your obviously not from the same part of America that I'm from! Where I come from, people do that sort of thing everyday."
Marge; "We're from New York, and people don't even own guns where we live!"
Me; "Oh yes they do! Half of everybody you know owns a gun. They just don't talk about it or carry it."
Herb; "No, that can't be! There's NO WAY! We'd know about it!"
Me; "Would you?"
Marge; "Well, I guess not. Not if they don't talk about it."
Me; "Approximately half of all New Yorkers own guns, statistically speaking."
Herb; "Well, then... I guess you learn something new everyday."
Me; "In my case, I carry both here in Israel and Stateside in Connecticut. Although, admittedly, the style of carry and the weapon selection is vastly different between those two locations."
Herb; "Yeah, I'll say! You sure don't see kids walking around with automatic weapons in New York!"
Me laughing; "Sure ya do! They're just breaking the law there. There's a big difference.
Marge; "No, he means doing it legally!"
Me; "I wish that we did though. I like the Israeli method better."
Marge; "Really!! But imagine how much crime there would be!"
Me again laughing hysterically; "Oh yeah! Take a look around you! Do you see shootouts and mass murders in the streets?!! Okay, okay.... aside from the Palestinian terrorists attacks, do you see OK corral shootouts and mass murders in the streets here?!"
Herb; "Well no, but..."
Me interrupting him; "But nothing! Aside from the terrorist attacks, Israel has essentially NO violent crime! Our citizen-on-citizen violent crime rate is the lowest in the entire developed world! Why do you think that is? It's cause EVERYBODY'S armed! No criminal in their right mind is going to try to mug or rape a Jew in Israel. They know that they'll get shot about 50 or 60 times before they can even get going! Imagine if that was the case in America. Every law-abiding citizen walked around with a gun. There would be NO CRIME!!! Criminals would be scared @#$%less of doing anything wrong to anyone!"
Herb; "Well yeah, I guess that you have a point, but I would be too scared in America to go outside my house if I knew that everybody that I met was armed!"
Me; "Well, how do you feel right now? Do you feel scared, or nervous, or do you feel calm and relaxed?"
Marge; "Well, right now I feel calm and relaxed, I guess."
Me; "Yeah, well guess what. EVERYBODY around you right now is armed!! (There were about 40 or so people in the coffe shop at that moment, about half of them with automatic weapons over their shoulders or on their hips, but I approached a random guy wearing a kippah sitting in a chair, no weapon visible, reading a Tenach (the old testament).
Me, to the random guy, speaking in Hebrew; "Hey sir, what's your name?"
Random guy; "Moshe Latsman, why?"
Me (showing him my IDF ID card); "Corporal (my hebrew name), Israeli Army. Are you armed?"
Moshe Latsman; "Of course!"
Me; "Let's see that weapon and permit."
Moshe stands up, opens up his suit jacket, reaches with his right hand to his left shoulder holster, and pulls out a glock 23 (.40 caliber compact) and hands it over to me. Herb and Marge look stunned! The look on their faces were priceless! I look over the guys permit and gun, tell him he's all set (even though the gun he was carrying WASN'T the Heckler and Koch USP .45 that he was registered for, but I couldn't give two @#$%s less) and he goes back to doing his thing.
Me (to Herb and wife); "See, I told you. EVERYBODY that you see is ARMED! Now tell me, do you feel any less safe than you did a grand total of thirty seconds ago?"
Herb; "Well, no, I guess not, but I still don't like guns."
Me; "And that's your perogative and you're welcome to it. Just don't force that on other people, or allow our politicians back in the States to force it on us!
Marge; "Well, it was good talking to you, young man."
Me; "Shabbat Shalom" (Happy Sabbath)
Herb and Marge; "Shabbat Shalom."
I really hope that they learned something from all of that.
Quite a story you got there, 
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GaGunOwner
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Posted: Sun Oct 21st, 2007 05:29 pm |
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CPerdue wrote: GaGunOwner wrote: snip...
Does anyone else see my point or have a problem with this? An American citizen in a foreign military?
Lafayette Escadrille. Flying Tigers. 'nuff said - uneducated moron.
I know about the Flying Tigers. Did I say that I agreed with them being in a foreign military??? While I think they were admirable, times were different. I still just don't get why a U.S. citizen would join a foreign military. I'm not trying to stir this up again from months ago...
P.S. I'm a history teacher.
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KBCraig
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Posted: Tue Oct 23rd, 2007 05:07 am |
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GaGunOwner wrote: CPerdue wrote: GaGunOwner wrote: snip...
Does anyone else see my point or have a problem with this? An American citizen in a foreign military?
Lafayette Escadrille. Flying Tigers. 'nuff said - uneducated moron.
I know about the Flying Tigers. Did I say that I agreed with them being in a foreign military??? While I think they were admirable, times were different. I still just don't get why a U.S. citizen would join a foreign military. I'm not trying to stir this up again from months ago...
P.S. I'm a history teacher.
Then you surely know about the thousands of Americans who went to Canada and joined the British Army and RAF in WWI and WWII, before America joined the fray. Not to mention the Lincoln Brigade in Spain -- they get credit, even if they were communists.
Why shouldn't an American be free to join a foreign military? Million of non-citizens have honorably served our nation by joining the military service.
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sdg319
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Posted: Fri Jun 6th, 2008 04:41 pm |
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This one's for personaltrainer1987. His last great adventure in the Holy Land.
He pulls out his IDF identity card, identifies himself as a "corporal," and demand's to see the man's weapon and permit.
All of that power in an off-duty corporal, huh? The Army guy on the receiving end of just about every order. Hmmh.
Do yourself a favor, kid. When you approach ANYONE like that to check his particulars, have your weapon chambered, the muzzle levelled, and your finger alongside the trigger. Do what you did to a drug dealer, or a terrorist, you could wind up on the receiving end of his Kel-Tec .380. And not just you, but every innocent bystander in that cafe.
BE CAREFUL.
Last edited on Fri Jun 6th, 2008 05:45 pm by sdg319
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ScottyT
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Jun 6th, 2008 05:06 pm |
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Holy Necro-posting Batman!
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Liko81
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Posted: Fri Jun 6th, 2008 05:28 pm |
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BobCav wrote: Jared wrote: BobCav wrote: League, you took the words right outta my mouth!
US citizens by birth cannot gain dual citizenship. To declare citizenship in another country, you have to denounce your American citizenship. My wife is a dual citizen of both Brazil and the US and I've researched it plenty. There's something about living in Brazil off my military retirement and not paying US taxes that is very, very appealing.
Lemme tell you, I've been to Israel with the US Navy and there were some hot sexy young ladies wearing cammies and packing UZI's when I was there. Going to the Western Wall we passed through a security checkpoint and I tried my best to get patted down by one of those fine young ladies... she just laughed and told me to keep moving!
US Citizens by birth can be dual citizens or even citizens of more then 2 places. Many places recognize citizenship by blood. Many of my co-workers are citizens of Mexico because of this. Secondly, you only lose US citizenship if you take an oath of allegance to the other country and you take the oath outside of the United States.
Many US citizens become citizens of the phillipines because you no not need to take an oath of allegiance.
Exactly. Israel might be considered a special case, but if you are a Jew of Jewish descent, you can apply for and maintain citizenship in Israel. The U.S. supports such dual citizenship based on separation of church and state; it regards the oath of allegiance to the Jewish nation as being equivalent to Christian rites like Baptism/Affirmation.
Back on topic, there are parts of Israeli law for security that I agree with, and parts I disagree with. The OP spends time in both places, so he can feel free to correct me, but:
- The notion of all Israeli citizens being the "populous militia" is codified in law; all citizens of serviceable age, in an emergency, are considered ad hoc military conscripts. An American cannot be forced into military service except by Congressional order (the draft).
- All citizens carry because it's the law; it's not a RIGHT to keep and bear arms, it's a DUTY, meaning that the right NOT to keep and bear arms does not exist.
- Compulsory military service is required by much of the industrialized world including Israel, but being in the Army because you have to does not inspire morale. We learned that in Vietnam and have had a volunteer military every since.
- As such, Israeli citizens get training in firearms as a matter of course. The average American is not a veteran of the Armed Forces nor the police and has little if any weapons training.
- Walking into your local grocery store in Israel is equivalent to entering a federal building, football stadium or airport terminal in the U.S. All bags are searched, weapons declared, and persons frisked. I think many here would bristle at such a blatant re-write of the Fourth Amendment, even if it did mean the NFA, '86 ban and all laws regulating OC went away.
- Strapping an M4 carbine (or Galil; it is Israel after all) to your back might sound cool, but I remember college very well and could not WAIT to get rid of my backpack at the end of the day.
- Being a Palestinian is a pretty tough gig.
I have some questions about the carry of arms by non-citizens; specifically, is it allowed? My church semi-frequently organizes trips to the Holy Land, and if I went it would be nice to have my pistol on my hip.
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Liko81
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Posted: Fri Jun 6th, 2008 05:31 pm |
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CPerdue wrote: GaGunOwner wrote: snip...
Does anyone else see my point or have a problem with this? An American citizen in a foreign military?
Lafayette Escadrille. Flying Tigers. 'nuff said - uneducated moron.
And the RCAF inducted black combat aviators during WWII including American citizens. Some of those went on to train the Tuskeegee Airmen.
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Decoligny
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Jun 6th, 2008 06:20 pm |
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sdg319 wrote: This one's for personaltrainer1987. His last great adventure in the Holy Land.
He pulls out his IDF identity card, identifies himself as a "corporal," and demand's to see the man's weapon and permit.
All of that power in an off-duty corporal, huh? The Army guy on the receiving end of just about every order. Hmmh.
In Isreal the IDF have more authority than the Military in the U.S. If they stop you for any reason, you had better fully co-operate, IIRC it carrys some VERY stiff penalties if you don't.
sdg319 wrote: Do yourself a favor, kid. When you approach ANYONE like that to check his particulars, have your weapon chambered, the muzzle levelled, and your finger alongside the trigger. Do what you did to a drug dealer, or a terrorist, you could wind up on the receiving end of his Kel-Tec .380. And not just you, but every innocent bystander in that cafe. BE CAREFUL.
This is Israel, not Detroit, or Los Angeles. The chances of him running into a drug dealer or terrorist, wearing a business suit, reading the Old Testament, are about as good as your chances of finding a straight male dancer in a Broadway Musical.
As far as winding up on the receiving end of a Kel-Tec .380 (the second smallest semi-auto pistol in the world) along with every innocent bystander in that cafe. You didn't read the part about "EVERYBODY around you right now is armed!! (There were about 40 or so people in the coffe shop at that moment, about half of them with automatic weapons over their shoulders or on their hips". Go ahead and pull out a tiny gun with a 6+1 ammo capacity in a room with at least 20 fully automatic Uzis. The terorrist who is that stupid deserves the quick death he would obviously receive.
Last edited on Fri Jun 6th, 2008 06:26 pm by Decoligny
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sdg319
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Posted: Fri Jun 6th, 2008 08:04 pm |
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This one is in response to Decoligny.
Point 1: Even in IDF I would imagine law enforcement powers have a rank requirement.
Point 2: Terrorists in Israel have been known to disguise themselves as Hasidic Jews. And drug dealers there are as anti-social as anywhere.
Point 3: I'd put me and my 8 + 1 1911 up against anybody anywhere armed with anything. It's not the gun, it's the man (or woman) behind it. And, besides, in Israel the law for gun carry is weapon locked and unchambered. That means somebody is going down at the bar.
POSTSCRIPT: I'm betting I could dump my 1911, as I bolt for the sidewalk (and make it), before one of those UNCHAMBERED automatic weapons gets the first round jacked in. Believe me when I tell you: I train for this, as I get my take-out order at a biker bar and those guys make Hamas look like cross dressers.
Last edited on Fri Jun 6th, 2008 09:48 pm by sdg319
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Grapeshot
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Sun Jun 8th, 2008 08:34 pm |
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sdg319 wrote: snip
And, besides, in Israel the law for gun carry is weapon locked and unchambered. That means somebody is going down at the bar.
POSTSCRIPT: I'm betting I could dump my 1911, as I bolt for the sidewalk (and make it), before one of those UNCHAMBERED automatic weapons gets the first round jacked in. Believe me when I tell you: I train for this, as I get my take-out order at a biker bar and those guys make Hamas look like cross dressers.
So you think that the BGs carry without a round in the chamber?
I glad that you think that you are the fastest gun in town. Must be a really nice feeling. BTW - How many live rounds do you put out at a typical biker bar stop?
First lesson to be learned about gun fights: There is always somebody faster or who cheats better than you do.
A little humility Grasshopper, a little humility.
Yata hey
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Sonora Rebel
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 11:46 pm |
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| I remember askin' a girl to dance in a Haifa beer joint. She handed her Uzi to her girlfriend. Cracked me up! Whole place was fulla machine guns 'n pistol packers. 'Looked like a Kosher Mob convention. Everybody was either a soldier or in Reserves. Condition 1 carry with a 1911-A1 ain't a problem when you practice. 'Loved Haifa... Yeah... the few Americans I encountered were freaked...
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Phssthpok
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Posted: Wed Aug 27th, 2008 01:32 pm |
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sdg319 wrote:
Point 3: I'd put me and my 8 + 1 1911 up against anybody anywhere armed with anything. It's not the gun, it's the man (or woman) behind it. And, besides, in Israel the law for gun carry is weapon locked and unchambered. That means somebody is going down at the bar.
POSTSCRIPT: I'm betting I could dump my 1911, as I bolt for the sidewalk (and make it), before one of those UNCHAMBERED automatic weapons gets the first round jacked in. Believe me when I tell you: I train for this, as I get my take-out order at a biker bar and those guys make Hamas look like cross dressers.
Spoken like as a person who is unaware the the UZI is designed to fire from an open-bolt position. True there's no bullet 'in the chamber', but one still needs only to pull the trigger (without any other actions) to get the arm to discharge.
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Grapeshot
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Wed Aug 27th, 2008 08:34 pm |
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Phssthpok wrote: sdg319 wrote:
Point 3: I'd put me and my 8 + 1 1911 up against anybody anywhere armed with anything. It's not the gun, it's the man (or woman) behind it. And, besides, in Israel the law for gun carry is weapon locked and unchambered. That means somebody is going down at the bar.
POSTSCRIPT: I'm betting I could dump my 1911, as I bolt for the sidewalk (and make it), before one of those UNCHAMBERED automatic weapons gets the first round jacked in. Believe me when I tell you: I train for this, as I get my take-out order at a biker bar and those guys make Hamas look like cross dressers.
Spoken like as a person who is unaware the the UZI is designed to fire from an open-bolt position. True there's no bullet 'in the chamber', but one still needs only to pull the trigger (without any other actions) to get the arm to discharge.
he, he, ha, HA, HA, Haa, HAAAGH ! Sorry I couldn't hold it back.
Has another mall ninja, warrior hero been caught exercising tactical unawareness and demonstrating lack of required knowledge? I'll let you decide.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=uzi+firing&search_type=&aq=f-
Uzi firing
Take note that at approx. 26 sec into the video the weapon is reloaded and the bolt pulled back to the open position with the chamber empty and is ready to fire again!
Yata hey edited to add video link
Last edited on Wed Aug 27th, 2008 09:26 pm by Grapeshot
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Sonora Rebel
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Aug 27th, 2008 09:03 pm |
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Mall Ninja... I like that. 'Seen it written before... but I dunno... It's just funny.
I don't go to malls much (way too far away) but I've seen 'em. 'Makes me wanna use that line from Predator: "What the hell are you?" I think the only reason I didn't at the time is 'cause I was heeled. 'Haft'a avoid stuff like that.
I did tell a woman once tho...'complainin' about the wind 'n heat 'n 'sticker plants' : "This is the Sonora Desert lady... not just a patch of sand that surrounds the mall."
Only thing she prob'ly remembers of that is her eyeballs fastened on my holster.
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thorvaldr
Regular Member
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Posted: Wed Aug 27th, 2008 10:48 pm |
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BB62 wrote: Forgive me if I missed it, but what did you find out about non-Jewish Americans OCing in Israel?
VERY interesting information on this thread. COOL!
So, what about non-Jewish Americans OCing in the holy land? I'm especially interested in the uzi rental option!
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Grapeshot
Founder's Club Member
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Posted: Wed Aug 27th, 2008 11:08 pm |
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thorvaldr wrote: BB62 wrote: Forgive me if I missed it, but what did you find out about non-Jewish Americans OCing in Israel?
VERY interesting information on this thread. COOL!
So, what about non-Jewish Americans OCing in the holy land? I'm especially interested in the uzi rental option!
Do not get the impression that Israel has lax gun laws. They are actually very restrictive, left over from the colonial days. Even so about 10% of the population has handgun permits. The penealty for carrying without a permit for non-LE or military is a very severe prison sentence.
"Competitive shooters must now lock up weapons at the club vault.
You used to be able to own two long guns for hunting but insurance is unavailable so no new long gun permits. However, current holders can still keep these guns.
Here are basics on handguns: Three years of citizenship, doctor's letter, one day of class, and shooting exam required, you must have what is deemed a "valid reason" to get this permit. Valid reasons for handgun permit include: three years with police reserve unit, military officer over captain, or residence in "higher risk" area like the West Bank.
The police will ask publicly that licensed owners carry when there is increased levels of terrorism. I am guessing 40%-to-60% of men in the West Bank carry a handgun as do many women. In settlements you may be able to join the anti-terrorist squad and be issued an army M16. Combat soldiers must carry a firearm and magazine while on leave."
Quoted from: http://www.survivalblog.com/2006/07/david_in_israel_re_on_gun_laws.html
Yata hey
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