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OpenCarry.org - Discussion Forum > Stories From The States > Virginia > Shooter jailed, possible justifiable homicide/SD
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| OpenCarry.org - Discussion Forum > Stories From The States > Virginia > Shooter jailed, possible justifiable homicide/SD
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paramedic70002 Regular Member 
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This, in the city that repeatedly arrests a black man for legally OCing. Note shooter is a black man with dreads. The first version of this story was 'road rage' over a fender bender, now emerging facts tell a different story. This guys freedom is going to hinge on a few facts that have not yet been leaked. For a real laugh, hit the link and read some of the comments. Reading comprehension must be pretty low around here. Waterside shooting was self-defense, accused says | HamptonRoads.com | PilotOnline.com Waterside shooting was self-defense, accused says Posted to: Crime News Norfolk By Michelle Washington The Virginian-Pilot © March 28, 2009 NORFOLK The man charged with murder in a shooting death at the Waterside parking garage last weekend fired in self-defense after seeing a gun on the driver who fought him after a fender bender, a defense lawyer said in court Friday. Reginald E. Royals Jr., 24, the man accused in the incident that left Juan Carlos Ovalle dead and another man injured, must remain in jail without bond, a judge ruled. Both the Ovalle and Royals families watched the proceedings in General District Court. Statements from both families painted pictures of the victim and the accused as hard working family men who had never been in trouble until a dispute over scratches on a car led to gunfire. Royals' lawyer, Jeffrey Swartz, said his client was by himself in the parking garage when his car bumped Ovalle's. The four people in Ovalle's car all got out, Swartz said. Royals gave his phone number, and someone in Ovalle's car immediately called it to verify it was the correct number. Someone in Ovalle's car took a picture of Royals' license plate, Swartz said. That's when Ovalle's friend Marcus McGee said Royals "probably doesn't have insurance. He's not going to pay," Swartz said. "Royals saw the victim had a gun in his pocket. He saw it because he displayed it," Swartz said, reaching toward his waist and motioning as if to hike up his shirt to display his waistband. All the men headed back to their cars, Swartz said, but then Royals saw Ovalle and McGee coming toward him. The men fought, Swartz said, with Ovalle and McGee striking Royals. That's when Royals reached into his car, got his own gun and started shooting. Ovalle was fatally shot in the head. McGee was shot several times and had wounds to his chest and a leg. He survived. Swartz said Royals' car was on the fourth floor of the garage; he had seen police on the second floor on his way up. Royals drove straight to the police, turned himself in, and gave a statement. "It was only because he was in fear of his life that he pulled a gun and shot," Swartz said. "He cooperated with the police in every way he could." Prosecutor Val Bowen told Judge Ray Dezern that Ovalle did have a gun when he first got out of his car but had placed it in the console before confronting Royals a second time. "The victims were unarmed " when they were shot, Bowen said. "It was a fist fight. If he was so afraid, why would he turn his back to go into the car and get a gun?" Bowen said Royals told police that he believed he saw Ovalle reach for a gun during the fight. McGee did not have a gun, Bowen said. Bowen told Dezern that police found two holsters and 9 mm cartridges in Royals' car. Police also took a gun from Royals. Bowen said Royals had no criminal record. Royals' friends and family members filled two rows of benches in the courtroom. His mother and sister testified as to his character. His sister, Tamara Wilson, said Royals has worked as an electrician with Northrop Grumman for three years, and that his foreman has promised that his job remains available if he is released from jail. His mother, Jacquelyn Royals, said she taught her children that if they were picked on, to walk away, tell a teacher, tell a principal. "Reggie, he would run from trouble," she said. "He was never violent." She said her son graduated from high school in 2002 with an advanced studies degree and was most valuable player in his baseball league. He attended Virginia State University for three years to study electrical engineering but left when his maternal grandmother died. "I begged Reggie not to drop out of school, but he wanted to drop out to get a job to help me at home," she said. __________________ |
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tsannicolas Regular Member 
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i'll be following this closely. |
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BUBB4H Regular Member 
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"...there'll be shootouts in the streets over fender-benders..." |
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ProShooter Regular Member 
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BUBB4H wrote: "...there'll be shootouts in the streets over fender-benders..." .......says Governor Kaine. Kaine also added "That's why I feel that we should outlaw firearms ownership for anyone who owns a motor vehicle or has a driver's license. My legal team has researched this and I see no viable reason why anyone should own both a handgun and a car in the Commonwealth. Of course, I believe that Commonwealth Attorneys should be exempt from this legislation as both firearms and vehicles are proper and necessary to the fulfillment of thier duties and it is in the best interest of the Commonwealth".  |
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Repeater Regular Member 
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If virginia currently had a Florida-style "Stand your ground" law, would that help Royals in this case? |
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Repeater Regular Member
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This WAVY report says a lot:Norfolk Vice Mayor Anthony Burfoot wants to take drastic action with the nightclubs at Waterside Festival Marketplace. He is calling for change following a deadly shooting inside the Waterside garage early Sunday morning. There's no such thing as bars in Virginia. What's really bad about this is that it might affect the chance for a veto override of SB1035. |
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IrRelevant Regular Member
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I personally know Reggie. He's a good guy. I played baseball with him for years when we were kids. Last edited on Wed Apr 1st, 2009 05:26 pm by IrRelevant |
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DeadCenter Regular Member 
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Repeater wrote: If Virginia currently had a Florida-style "Stand your ground" law, would that help Royals in this case? I am not a lawyer by far. However, if you do not provoke the attack, case law in VA shows you need not retreat. If the accused is in no fault whatever, but in discharge of a lawful act, he need not retreat, but may repel force by force, if need be, to the extent of slaying his adversary. This is justifiable homicide in self defense. (Dodson v. Commonwealth 1933). Justifiable self0defense arises when the defendant is completely without fault. In such a case, the defendant need not retreat, but is permitted to stand his ground an repel the attack by force. including deadly force, if it is necessary. )foote v. Commonwealth, 1990 quoting Perkins case. 1947 and mcCoy case 1919. |
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TFred Regular Member
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Arg, I'm catching up... I am very confused. One of the articles I read said "As the three argued, police say Royals Jr. grabbed a gun and started shooting." Were the police there? Did they witness this? The accused clearly tells a different story, how do the police know which story to believe, and apparently with enough certainty to be quoted on the record as 'this is what happened'? These Norfolk PD folks are real winners. TFred ETFix my confusion... Last edited on Wed Apr 1st, 2009 09:33 pm by TFred |
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cREbralFIX Regular Member
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Just because they're unarmed does not mean they cannot kill you or inflict serious bodily harm. http://www.vcdl.org/pdf/Virginia-self-defense-cases.pdf
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paramedic70002 Regular Member
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http://hamptonroads.com/2009/06/case-shooting-waterside-garage-go-grand-jury Case of shooting in Waterside garage to go to grand jury myvid = "145147"; mypath = "/simpleview"; if (Drupal.jsEnabled) { $(document).ready(function(){ $("#thumbnails").load(mypath, {vid: myvid},Lightbox.initList); }); }  Reginald E. Royals Jr. is charged  Juan Carlos Ovalle was killed Previous: Family wonders how minor accident ended a dream var TFSMFlash_PRETAG=""; var TFSMFlash_POSTTAG=""; var TFSMFlash_VERSION="8"; var TFSMFlash_WMODE="window"; var TFSMFlash_OASCLICK="http://oascentral.hamptonroads.com/RealMedia/ads/click_lx.ads/www.hamptonroads.com/pilotonline.com/news/crime/L20/1588313393/Middle/PilotOnl/IM_StandardHouse_033109_Rect/IM_StandardHouse_033109_Rect.html/53464a463445685a7a45494142436478?http://jobs.hamptonroads.com/"; var TFSMFlash_SWFCLICKVARIABLE="?clickTAG="+TFSMFlash_OASCLICK ; var TFSMFlash_SWFFILE="http://imagec17.247realmedia.com/RealMedia/ads/Creatives/PilotOnl/IM_StandardHouse_033109_Rect/cc_emptyChair_091708_300x250_mc.swf/1238504918"+TFSMFlash_SWFCLICKVARIABLE; var TFSMFlash_FSCOMMAND=""; var TFSMFlash_IMAGEALTERNATE="http://imagec17.247realmedia.com/RealMedia/ads/Creatives/PilotOnl/IM_StandardHouse_033109_Rect/cc_emptyChair_091708_300x250_mc.jpg/1238504918"; var TFSMFlash_OASALTTEXT=""; var TFSMFlash_OASTARGET="_blank"; var TFSMFlash_OASPROTOCOL="http://"; var TFSMFlash_OASDIM="WIDTH='300' HEIGHT='250'"; var TFSMFlash_OASADID="OAS_RMF_Middle_FLASH"; document.write(''); [url=http://oascentral.hamptonroads.com/RealMedia/ads/click_lx.ads/www.hamptonroads.com/pilotonline.com/news/crime/L20/1588313393/Middle/PilotOnl/IM_StandardHouse_033109_Rect/IM_StandardHouse_033109_Rect.html/53464a463445685a7a45494142436478?http://jobs.hamptonroads.com/]  [/url] By Michelle Washington The Virginian-Pilot © June 2, 2009 NORFOLK The fight in the Waterside parking garage seemed over when a passer-by shouted for the three men trading blows to stop. But during that pause, testified Marcus McGee, Reginald Royals Jr. reached in his car, pulled out a gun and started shooting. The first volley of bullets hit McGee in his back, hip and shoulder. A second series of shots killed his friend, Juan Carlos Ovalle, when a bullet struck him in the head. The incident happened March 22. McGee testified Monday during Royals' preliminary hearing in General District Court. Judge S. Clark Daugherty ruled that murder, malicious wounding and weapons charges against Royals should be heard by a grand jury this month. Daugherty denied a motion by Royals' lawyer, Jeffrey Swartz, to reduce the charge from murder to manslaughter. Swartz argued that his client sought to protect himself during a fist fight that was two against one and in which one of his opponents, Ovalle, carried a gun. Friends and family for both Royals and Ovalle filled several rows in the courtroom. McGee said he, Ovalle, Alana Lindsay and a fourth person spent part of the evening in a Waterside bar. McGee and Lindsay testified that as they walked to their car in the parking garage to go home, they passed Royals, who was revving the engine of his car. When Ovalle reached his car, McGee said, he took his gun out of the glove box and put it in his pocket. Ovalle pulled out of his parking space but soon stopped in traffic trying to leave the garage. That's when Royals bumped their car, McGee said. Within moments, Royals bumped Ovalle's car again. Ovalle and McGee got out of their car, a white Nissan Altima, to inspect the damage. They exchanged phone numbers with Royals, and Lindsay called Royals' phone to make sure the number was valid. McGee took a picture of Royals' license plate. Lindsay remained in Ovalle's car but said she could see the butt of Ovalle's gun as he talked with Royals. Ovalle did not flash it, she said, nor did he remove it from his pocket. When Ovalle and McGee returned to the car, Lindsay said, they seemed agitated. They did not believe that Royals had insurance, she said, and decided to approach him again to get the name of his insurance company. That's when punches were thrown. McGee said he could not remember who swung first. He said Royals landed a punch that made Ovalle stumble back. Royals turned to look at McGee, and the two of them exchanged blows. Then a stranger ran up and shouted for the men to stop. The shooting started after that. McGee fled, but Ovalle was hemmed in by cars. Lindsay said once Ovalle fell, Royals ordered her and the other man out of Ovalle's car. Royals held his gun above his waist, Lindsay said, and began pacing. "I started begging him to get into his car and leave," she said. Royals did. His lawyer, Swartz, said at a previous hearing that Royals drove straight to police on another floor of the garage and turned himself in. At the end of Monday's testimony, Swartz argued that the case should go forward on lesser charges of manslaughter and unlawful wounding, saying there was no malice behind Royals' actions. "He was injured, outnumbered. He's in fear," Swartz said of Royals. "He grabs his gun and it's boom, boom, boom in a matter of seconds." Prosecutor Amy Cross countered that neither McGee nor Ovalle displayed a gun. "This was a fight, not an incident where the defendant was in reasonable fear of death, and yet he reacts with deadly force," Cross said. |
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cREbralFIX Regular Member
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Let's see if I understand the story: One guy crashed into another car filled with people. Contact info was exchanged and photos taken. Two guys from the car that was hit decide the first guy doesn't have insurance and won't pay. They flash a gun and attack. It's a two on one fight. The first guy gets a gun sometime during the fight and shoots the two guys attacking him. *** So, first: The two guys introduced a gun into the mix prior to starting a fight. Then, two guys attacked one. As I understand the law in Virginia, both justify a lethal force response. |
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PT111 Regular Member 
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From what I read I would have a very hard time of convicting him in this case. A gun was shown by the dead man either purposely or inadvertantly but Royals knew the other men were armed. There was a fight of at least two on one with others in the car. I can't convict a man with those facts staring me in the face. |
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skidmark Activist Member 
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Repeater wrote: If virginia currently had a Florida-style "Stand your ground" law, would that help Royals in this case? Trust me on this one - you do not want a "stand your ground" law to replace the common law principles of 1) having a right to defend yourself from death or serious bodily injury, and 2) having no duty to retreat from a place where you are lawfully entitled to be. "Stand your ground" laws come with all sorts of qualifiers and exemptions - either written in to them by the legislature or interpreted as being there by the courts. I'd rather prove I was justified or excused in using deadly force than argue I did not kill the perp when all the evidence - including my own statements made on the advice and consultation with my attorney show I certainly did kill him. What would be nice is a law granting civil immunity to anyone who sucessfully proves self defense. That would prevent the perp or his estate from suing you for any number of reasons, including loss of income (he's dead so he can't rob oir push drugs any more), loss of consortium (he beat the baby-mammas and the kids, but now that he's dead nobody's getting any hugs), or violaion of his civil rights (he was persuing happiness when he mugged you). [/sarcasm] stay safe. skidmark |
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TexasNative Regular Member
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Unfortunately for that position, Skid, is that the civil liabilities protections tend to come along with the castle protections against prosecution. Not that it's impossible to separate them, but has that happened anywhere? ~ Boyd |
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cREbralFIX Regular Member
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Just because one state or group of states wrote their laws one way doesn't mean Virginia can't come up with something better...such as: "Anyone using force in self-defense is exempt from civil liability." Of course, politicians will ruin a perfectly sensible law. |
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Grapeshot Founder's Club Member 
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cREbralFIX wrote: Just because one state or group of states wrote their laws one way doesn't mean Virginia can't come up with something better...such as: No reason it cannot be worked out in a favorable manner first and then submitted to a potential sponsor in the GA. The simpler, more direct the wording, the better the law - IMHO. Yata hey |
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skidmark Activist Member
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TexasNative wrote: Unfortunately for that position, Skid, is that the civil liabilities protections tend to come along with the castle protections against prosecution. Not that it's impossible to separate them, but has that happened anywhere? Yes, there are several states that have separate "castle doctrine/stand your ground" and civil immunity laws. It's late & I'm tired so I'm not going to look them up tonight. Remember, "castle doctrine law" is merely a codified statement of your common law right to defend yourself in your home/extension of your home. "Stand your ground" is codification of your privilege to remain anywhere [else] you have a legal right to be without retreating in the face of attack. Civil immunity has nothing to do with where you were when you killed/wounded the perp - it is protection from being sued by a person/their estate/heirs who was involved in committing a criminal act when you were forced to defend yourself. Three separate concepts. stay safe. skidmark |
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ProShooter Regular Member
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Texas uses the HNK defense - seems to work fine for them! |
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there Regular Member
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i was there they didn't get out the car to fight just to ask for the insurance and the fight was over when he started shooting.there is never a need to shoot someone from two feet away. those who know the man who did it i fee sorry for you cause he didn't even think twice. remember that. he took a life that's never justified the way he did it. i love you Juan rest in peace.you are forever missed..... |
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there Regular Member
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i was there they didn't get out the car to fight just to ask for the insurance and the fight was over when he started shooting.there is never a need to shoot someone from two feet away. those who know the man who did it i fee sorry for you cause he didn't even think twice. remember that. he took a life that's never justified the way he did it. i love you Juan rest in peace.you are forever missed..... |
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user Regular Member 
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skidmark wrote: Repeater wrote:If virginia currently had a Florida-style "Stand your ground" law, would that help Royals in this case? I really didn't understand this post at all. Virginia is a "true man" state; one is not required to retreat. And self-defense is an absolute defense in both civil and criminal cases. One does not need laws to tell him what he is allowed to do, unless you're in an authoritarian Catholic country like France or Italy. In Virginia, you can do anything that is not prohibited. And, by the way, I liked Cerebralfix's quote, to the effect that it doesn't matter whether one is "in fear for his life" when relying on the self-defense doctrine. When I read something by the defense lawyer who apparently made a public statement to the effect that the defendant was in fear for his life, I thought, Uh-oh, that guy needs a lawyer. The defendant's emotional state is completely irrelevant to either the charge or his defense. His lawyer has to be able to show that the defendant had a reasonable, good faith belief, on the basis of objective facts, that he was subjected to an imminent threat of serious bodily injury. He could have been in fear for his life because of an irrational phobia about dark places - that wouldn't justify the use of deadly force. But cops seem to shoot people fairly often because they pull out a pen, lighter, or cell phone. Same rule - question is the good faith belief regarding the imminent threat of serious (not necessarily lethal) bodily injury. Last edited on Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 03:37 pm by user |
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Skeptic Regular Member 
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I thought if you were outnumbered by credible assailants, that is considered a force escalation in which lethal force in self defense may be justified? |
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vtme_grad98 Regular Member
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You can be beaten to death. A weapon does not have to be pulled out by the attacker to justify using lethal force to protect yourself. The prosecutors comments about "This was a fight, not an incident where the defendant was in reasonable fear of death, and yet he reacts with deadly force," are typical PR bull@#$% to support her case. This may, or may not, be self-defense. But the fact that the man that died had not actually visibly brought a weapon in the fight doesn't mean that he and his friend were not equipped to kill Mr. Royals. Regarding the concept of "duty to retreat" in Virginia, it's not techinically accurate to say that there is no duty to retreat in this state. If you did not contribute to the situation, you do not have a duty to retreat. However, if you did contribute to the encounter escalating (e.g., you started arguing and yelling with a guy and then he pulls a knife), then you are required to retreat to the maximum extent possible. If you own a copy of "Virginia Gun Laws", it's pretty easy to find the court precendent that establishes that. Mine is at home unfortunately. Also, regarding civil cases, and castle doctrine, some of us brought that up with one of our State Senators on Lobby Day in 2008. He had explained that castle doctrine isn't necessary in Virginia like in other states. There are two types of criteria for liability. Some states have relative liability, which would diminish any payouts based on how much of the fault was yours. Virginia is a "strict liability" state, so the person suing can't win if he is at fault for what happened. So, on one hand, you can file a lawsuit for just about anything. But if you shoot and kill a man that broke into your home, his family has no real chance of a lawsuit going any farther than the initial steps. |
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SIGguy229 Regular Member 
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there wrote: i was there they didn't get out the car to fight just to ask for the insurance and the fight was over when he started shooting.there is never a need to shoot someone from two feet away. I know I'm feeding the troll, but I've got 12 hours off before my next mission... I guess a court is going to sort this out...personally, if I'm outnumbered and threatened with bodily harm from someone 2ft away....I'm not going to be the only one bleeding. Given the circumstances outlined in the OP, I wouldn't think either...except how to get away, and if that includes a couple of bad guys getting hurt, that works for me. |
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kaiheitai17 Regular Member 
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Sigguy, welcome back to the board. Missed your posts. |
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Grapeshot Founder's Club Member
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kaiheitai17 wrote: Sigguy, welcome back to the board. Missed your posts. And thanks for your service. Understand you point of view completely. +1 Yata hey |
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