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OpenCarry.org - Discussion Forum > Stories From The States > California > Noobie Thread - Suggestions from those who have been there.
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| OpenCarry.org - Discussion Forum > Stories From The States > California > Noobie Thread - Suggestions from those who have been there.
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ConditionThree Activist Member 
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It seems interest in exposed carry has been picking up, and since the Nordyke ruling has come down in favor of incorporating the 2nd, I’m sure many will perceive this as the starting bell for much more open carry activity. But in reviewing some of the more recent posts of first time experiences, it seems that some of the suggestions that some of the veteran members her have dispensed is not reaching our enthusiastic first timers. With that in mind, the following list is intended to lay the ground rules to successful open carrying in the state of California. 1) Be familiar with and obey the law. You will need a working knowledge of the applicable penal codes, Federal laws, as well as county and local ordinances. Your knowledge should be deep enough that you can cogently explain the law to anyone you might encounter. 2) Treat everyone with courtesy. You may think your only purpose to carry a firearm to defend yourself or exercise your right to keep and bear arms, but you are also an ambassador for the second amendment and how you are perceived directly affects how gun owners are viewed. Smile, make eye contact, say hello. Take time to answer questions. Be friendly. Diffuse irrational fear. 3) Be properly equipped. A) You should have a belt holster that fits the weapon you are carrying with a minimum of level-one retention. More retention is better. It has been suggested and I think I’d agree, it would be wise to carry in a drop leg or thigh holster- not because it is ‘tacticool’ but because it would reduce the possibility of being accused of a 12025 violation. B) You should have a digital voice recorder with sufficient recording time to remain on continuously while you are in public. C) You should have a secure, fully enclosed locking case for your firearm. You will need this to comply with certain no weapons areas exemptions. D) You should have some pamphlet or memo detailing the legalities of open carry so you can hand them out to interested parties. E) You should have committed to memory a phone number of an attorney in case you are arrested. 4) Bring friendly witnesses. In addition to having a running audio recorder you should be accompanied by other open carriers or supportive friends in the event you have a police encounter. An audio recorder is a blind witness, only recording sound and does not capture things like attitude or demeanor or intent. It has been evidenced in prior events that police appear less inclined to conduct a loaded check on open carriers in groups or three or more. 5) If you should have a police encounter, comply with police and refer once again to #2. 6) Do not carry a map detailing where all the school zones are located. This will not help you in the event you are stopped by police no matter where you are. 7) You should have $5,000 to $10,000 for a legal defense in the event you are arrested and charged. 8) Do not be in a rush to post your police encounter on a public forum for everyone to read. In many cases, divulging certain details are first, not necessary and second, could give police a reason to revisit the event, as they do read these forums. Sharing your encounter is beneficial for other activists, but you do have a 5th amendment right not to incriminate yourself. If anyone can think of any other requisites to sucessful open carry, PM me and I will amend the list. |
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Cougar125 Regular Member
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Good advice. I haven't UOC here in CA yet just because everytime I want to go shoot I have to make phone calls to set up appointments to retrieve my guns, I don't have $$$ coming out my a55 to get a lawyer, and meeting up with others takes time and planning. I miss WA already. |
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rpyne Regular Member
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I would add one other item. Watch this video, several times, and commit its advise to memory. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc&feature=player_embedded |
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bad_ace Regular Member 
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Great write up. I can attest to #8, I made that rookie mistake recently. |
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poothrowingape Regular Member 
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ConditionThree wrote:
6) Do not carry a map detailing where all the school zones are located. This will not help you in the event you are stopped by police no matter where you are. 4. doesnt mean u should LOC in incorporated areas. I know its common sense but im sure a newbie might take that wrong. Just as C3 stated abiding the law is a must. 6. i can imagine the stories the press could fabricate about a crazy 2A supporter OCing with a map of all the local schools. |
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cato Regular Member 
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btt |
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Theseus Founder's Club Member 
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Another importaint thing. . . In connection with having a voice recorder you should also have the connections, skill and programs to transfer your recordings to your computer as quickly as possible after an encounter. There was a time I lost an interaction because the batteries died before I could transfer the recording. Luckily I had backup video. |
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ConditionThree Activist Member
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Theseus wrote: Another importaint thing. . . Actually I think what your're getting at is that you should select a recorder that does not rely on volatile memory- ie: forgets when you turn off the power. My Sony recorder will save audio clips even if the batteries are taken out and replaced or the unit is turned off. |
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cato Regular Member
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btt artwork by oleg volk: Attached Image (viewed 688 times): |
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ConditionThree Activist Member
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BTT |
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cato Regular Member
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ConditionThree wrote: BTT btt is right artwork by oleg volk: Attached Image (viewed 578 times): |
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cato Regular Member
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btt |
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stuckinchico Regular Member 
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i will be purchasing another magazine this one will remain unloaded but in my weapon. That still is considered an unloaded weapon correct?? I just keep getting a crap load of dirt in my mag well |
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nukechaser Regular Member 
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I believe the salient point is that there isn't ammo "placed into a position from which it can be fired" if you have an empty magazine inserted into the magazine well. However, make sure your full magazine is plainly visible. This is accomplished usually in a magazine carrier/pouch on your belt, just like your pistol. THIS IS IMPORTANT! A magazine is an integral part of a pistol. Carrying it with ammo in it in your pocket could potentially bring a concealed weapons violation (p.c. 12025). If you are carrying a revolver you may carry speed loaders, bullets, etc. in your pocket without concern, 'cuz a speed loaded or moon clips are not an integral part of a revolver. |
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stuckinchico Regular Member
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WAIT A minute are you saying that just cuz i have a semiauto i cant have loose ammo in my pocket not in a mag?? |
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bigtoe416 Regular Member 
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stuckinchico wrote: WAIT A minute are you saying that just cuz i have a semiauto i cant have loose ammo in my pocket not in a mag?? You can have loose ammo in your pocket, or you can have your magazine in a belt magazine holster, or you can glue your magazine to a baseball hat and wear it. You can't have the magazine concealed. |
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stuckinchico Regular Member
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how bout an empty mag can it be in your pocket? |
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stuckinchico Regular Member
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Cougar125 wrote: Good advice.WHERE are your guns??? why dont you have them?? |
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bigtoe416 Regular Member
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stuckinchico wrote: how bout an empty mag can it be in your pocket? I actually don't know the answer to this. Part of me wants to avoid the question altogether and ask why one would want to carry an empty mag. My guess though is that even an empty mag concealed could still be construed as being a concealed weapon. The case law here is People v. Hale (http://ca.findacase.com/research/wfrmDocViewer.aspx/xq/fac.%5CCA%5CCA3%5C1974%5C19741120_0040106.CA.htm/qx) |
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CA_Libertarian State Researcher 
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bigtoe416 wrote: stuckinchico wrote:how bout an empty mag can it be in your pocket? In Hale, the court's logic was that a concealed full magazine (mags can not be "loaded" in the legal sense) made the firearm readily useable. I don't see any reason an empty magazine would make the firearm more readily useable, so Hale should not apply. However, I wouldn't be at all surprised if a DA were to prosecute anyhow. When it comes to persecuting gun owners, it seems they like to just throw spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks. IMO, it's not worth being a test case - keep your mags exposed or locked up. |
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stuckinchico Regular Member
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It this point Im ready just to carry concealed illegally Worry about it when and if it comes to it |
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ConditionThree Activist Member
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stuckinchico wrote: It this point Im ready just to carry concealed illegally Worry about it when and if it comes to it Two bad ideas. 1) Contemplating doing something that is illegal. 2) Posting that intent on a public internet board. I think at this point you still have some options that you should keep an open mind about. 1) Apply for and obtain a LTC concealed before you ruin your record and make yourself ineligible (If you havent done that already.) 2) Carry unloaded in a locked secure container. 3) Continue UOC and adjust your attitude in anticipation of police contact and apply all the aforementioned advice in this thread. |
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stuckinchico Regular Member
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We are getting a new police chief here I will be very active in insure that his is more open minded about issuing CCWS as far I have not ruined my chance s of obtaining it as my charges are not a disqualifying misdemeanor. Theres a huge difference between contemplating something and actually doing it.. huge I just got a digital recorder that can be locked but not unlocked with out a password so im gonna play around with it and make sure i understand its abilities and fault before i strap up |
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nukechaser Regular Member
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stuckinchico wrote: ...Theres a huge difference between contemplating something and actually doing it.. huge ... Yes, the differences are: 1. Commiting the crime. 2. Conspiracy to commit a crime (if you tell/plan/conspire with someone) Both have penalties. I would suggest never posting the idea that you plan on committing a crime on a public forum such as this. You have nothing to gain from it and a lot to lose. By the way, what is the make and model of your password protectable recorder? |
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KylaGWolf Regular Member
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ConditionThree wrote:
OK here is a couple of things to keep in mind. 1. Have at least 10 pamphlets on you. People do want the information so if they ask you have one to hand them. 2. The digital recorder should be able to record at minimum 4 hours of continuous use. I wouldn't go less than that because you don't want to risk it stopping in the middle of encounter with an LEO. Also make sure FRESH batteries are in the recorder. Also I would make sure to have either a digital video or digital camera with you both with fresh or fully charged batteries, and decent sized memory card. 3. The not wanting to check more than three is a misnomer. I know this one from personal experience (can't go in to detail since it is still in the process of being dealt with). The police WILL check you even in larger groups. So be prepared for it to happen. KEEP YOUR COOL, don't give them any more information than you have to. The situation can spiral out of control quickly if you don't keep your cool. Also if you have a friendly witness with you make sure THEY get the camera as this happens due to the fact they can continue to record it if you have video capability. DO NOT turn it off no matter what. You could also have your friendly witness be the one with the voice recorder and an attachable mike which will make the audio area extend should you run into an encounter with an LEO. 4. If you are stopped make sure you WRITE EVERYTHING DOWN as soon as possible to make sure you don't forget anything this is vital if you do have to make a complaint against a department or later have to defend yourself. Also make a copy of the digital recording on to a disk and put in a safe place along with the written account of what happened. If for some reason you have an encounter with an LEO that does not go well DO NOT post particulars on the forum since there is always the chance that the LEO's of that department or another department read these forums. We already know they do so might be wise to never post anything in the forums you do NOT want brought up later. 5. Make sure someone knows where you are going and what time you expect to be back. Even if you have a friendly witness. Call them when you get home and all is safe. The having a lawyers number memorized is a good idea although a friend can also have that information just as easily. |
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KylaGWolf Regular Member
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stuckinchico wrote: It this point Im ready just to carry concealed illegally Worry about it when and if it comes to itOK best advise I can give you is NEVER EVER put anything on line that might come back later and bite you. What you just posted can do so. |
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cato Regular Member
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ConditionThree wrote:
btt |
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cato Regular Member
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btt |
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pullnshoot25 Regular Member 
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I got videos on the subject. Not to sound like a broken record or anything... http://caopencarry.blogspot.com/2009/06/newest-oc-videos.html |
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nukechaser Regular Member
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pullnshoot25 wrote:I got videos on the subject. Not to sound like a broken record or anything... ... or a scratched CD for you younger folks. Hehe! Great job on the videos, by the way!  |
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pullnshoot25 Regular Member
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nukechaser wrote: pullnshoot25 wrote: Thanks!  |
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ConditionThree Activist Member
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btt |
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cato Regular Member
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btt Attached Image (viewed 150 times): |
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rpyne Regular Member
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Where can I get some stickers like that (no Weapons, Victim Disarmament Zone)? |
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stuckinchico Regular Member
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Where can I get a shirt that says If guns cause crime then Police cause riots |
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stuckinchico Regular Member
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A) You should have a belt holster that fits the weapon you are carrying with a minimum of level-one retention. More retention is better. It has been suggested and I think I’d agree, it would be wise to carry in a drop leg or thigh holster- not because it is ‘tacticool’ but because it would reduce the possibility of being accused of a 12025 violation. How is this soo???? It says it needs to be a belt holster |
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bigtoe416 Regular Member
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stuckinchico wrote: How is this soo???? It says it needs to be a belt holster This falls under the whole, "it doesn't say it's illegal, so it must be legal" aspect of the law. 12025(f) states:
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CA_Libertarian State Researcher
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I've found that it's not uncommon for LE to believe 12025 actually prohibits carrying "concealable" firearms (all short guns), whether actually concealed or not. For this reason it may be beneficial to be carrying in a belt holster, just to avoid the trip downtown. I've never carried in a drop-leg holster, but if you live in an area where you need to wear a coat in the winter, a belt holster may not be an option. (In the central valley, I've gotten by just tucking in a heavy sweater - most the winter it doesn't get cold enough to require a coat.) Last edited on Wed Jul 15th, 2009 11:25 pm by CA_Libertarian |
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stuckinchico Regular Member
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Avoid the trip down town hahaha thats funny good i wish i lived down in soc cal again because these :good ole boys" up here really dont care about rights |
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camsoup Regular Member
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nukechaser wrote: I believe the salient point is that there isn't ammo "placed into a position from which it can be fired" if you have an empty magazine inserted into the magazine well. I wonder if some DA's in this state would try to argue that a cartridge is an integral part of a firearm, therefore making it illegal to even conceal moonclips, speedloaders, or loose cartridges....really without a cartridge you don't by definition have a fire arm???  its hard to make it go bang without a round of ammunition. |
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ConditionThree Activist Member
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camsoup wrote: nukechaser wrote:I believe the salient point is that there isn't ammo "placed into a position from which it can be fired" if you have an empty magazine inserted into the magazine well. See- this is what I have been cogitating on. If the magazine is an integral part of a firearm and can be considered to be a 12025 "concealed weapon"- the same could be said of ammunition as the cartridges have as much to do with the firearm being a weapon as the magazine does. However, if it is not fully assembled and ready to fire, they can only be parts of a weapon... not a complete weapon outside being a makeshift bludgeon. So how then does the 2nd amendment apply to parts that are not assembled as an 'arm'? And if we are not allowed a fully assembled 'arm' what part of keep and bear are we able to practice? I suspect at some time in the future that requirements to maintain an incomplete weapon (ie: unloaded, disassembled, or absent from ammunition.) will be ruled unConstitutional with the arguement that with some or all of the integral machinery/parts removed, it eliminates the ability to use arms as they were intended since they cease to be mechanically effective. |
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camsoup Regular Member
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ConditionThree wrote: camsoup wrote:nukechaser wrote:I believe the salient point is that there isn't ammo "placed into a position from which it can be fired" if you have an empty magazine inserted into the magazine well. I agree this would be a huge win for everyone....hopefully it would allow everyone to have a Loaded weapon, because without ammunition is it really a firearm?? With the right case I think this would be able to be settle with good case law....who wants to be the test subject?  |
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stuckinchico Regular Member
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WOw a test subject for that...... I think that we would have to have at least 10 people trying this... I think just one doing this was suicide |
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ConditionThree Activist Member
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BTT |
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bigtoe416 Regular Member
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bump |
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cato Regular Member
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btt and read this thread too http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=30073&forum_id=12&jump_to=505514#p505514 and this one http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/23169.html &http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/27695.html Attached Image (viewed 79 times): Last edited on Mon Sep 7th, 2009 11:33 pm by cato |
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ConditionThree Activist Member
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Maintenance bump. |
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ConditionThree Activist Member
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Bump for the recent media coverage- and those new to the movement. |
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Gundude Regular Member 
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ok, what's a bump? |
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cato Regular Member
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Gundude wrote: ok, what's a bump? bump to the top of the forum aka btt the following are Ca legal non registered semi auto centerfire rifles. you can own one too. CGN brain trust for the win  Attached Image (viewed 18 times): Last edited on Fri Nov 20th, 2009 06:13 pm by cato |
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