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thejax Regular Member 
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I have a great story which thank god has a happy ending. My friend was a LEO from MD, He then transfered to a PD in NJ. After that, he transfered to a private security company in PA where he now resides and is no longer an LEO but does consulting. He has a full carry permit in NJ and MD (which I know is hard to get but since he was an LEO it was cake for him) as well as PA and DE. He open-carrys basically everywhere and because he is built like a ton of bricks and has the haircut, people usually think he's still a cop and no one gives it a second look. So a few weeks ago I called him up and asked him if he wanted to go to the range. So we went. After that we decided to go down to Christiana Mall. While in the mall we had a lot of people gawking at his gun. Mall Security walked up to him and asked for ID. He looked at them and said, "Are you an LEO?". He said "No, I work for mall security, I am going to need to see some ID". So my friend, which by the way is intimidating by just looking at him says "No. I am a former LEO. You are not an LEO and you have no right to ask me for ID. What is the purpose for your questioning and what can I help you with, sir?". So the mall security guy starts to explain that he is unhappy about the gun. My friend tells him in Delaware he can open carry. If he has a problem with it, he would like to speak to his supervisor. If his supervisor has a problem with it, he will leave the mall and want no trouble. So after he said that. the mall security guy looked scared because my friend basicially stood his ground, though he was willing to compromise. So my friend said to me, "ya know what? Lets just leave. I'm really not in the mood for a prick waving fight of who's rules really apply". So it took us nearly 10 minutes to get to the exit where we parked. We were gonna head out to get something to eat before our girlfriends started to complain thyey wanted us home. As we exit, there is an officer from a DE police organization (i'm not going to say who but its pretty apparent if you know DE) walking towards us. My friend says, "ok here we go". So the officer walks past us. Just then he calls something on the radio and a decription is dispatched to him of my friend. So we just kept on walking. Finally, the officer says "Excuse me sir, stop right there". So we stop, not turning around. We hear the officer start to walk towards us. My friend turns his head slightly and sees the officer reach for his (my friends) holster. My friend does a 180 and puts his hand on his holster and says "What on earth are you doing?". As he does that, the officer draws his weapon. So, my friend draws his. So now I am thinking, someone is going to die and I am going to be on the news. My friend is an expert marksman and also a quick draw. So now the officer craps a brick and is like "put the gun down, put the gun down". My friend, who is totally calm starts to yell at him. He says, "Oh so now its a double standard. I reach for your gun and we have a huge problem but trying to ambush me and disarm me without my knowledge is ok? How about you put your gun back in your holster and I will stand down and do the same and we can talk about this in a civil manner before someone gets hurt." So the officer says no. So he says, "I am a former LEO. So are you going to put the gun down or are we going to sit here like idiots. I'm not even thinking of shooting you and I am sure you are thinking the same." So the officer slowly lowers his gun and my friend does the same. My friend said, "for your safety, I will unload my weapon if you secure yours". So the officer puts his gun back in his holster yet keeps his hand on it. My friend, with his gun pointing down, takes the clip out and unloads his weapon. He says "now, what the **** is wrong with you. What is it that is so important that you need to bother us as well as draw your firearm anyway?". So the cop, who still is sweating like a madman mentions the gun. So ofcourse my friend and I have a flyer to educate the officer on DE law. At the same time, he shows him his permits and all that jazz. This happened in a remote entrance and no one seen this happen. My friends says "I am carrying this gun legally and now you know. So if there is nothing else officer, I'd like to shake your hand and walk away from this situation like it never happened. How do you feel about that?". He pauses then the officer says, "Sure ok. I really don't want to deal with the paperwork". So with that my friend reloads his gun, returns it to his holster, and they shake hands. With that we leave and head to Red Robin on Rt 40, where we talked about it for hours. I just wanted to share. I don't agree with my friends actions by the way. Last edited on Sun May 10th, 2009 06:45 pm by thejax |
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MarlboroLts5150 Regular Member 
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What part of his actions don't you agree with? You didn't specify. |
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thejax Regular Member
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Hey man, I just wanted to tell the story. I would like to leave my opinion out of this. I know this forum can get heated about people with a difference in opinion. I just wanted to share this with you. I don't want to end up being the bad guy. But IF you must know, I don't think I would have drew my weapon to the LEO. I'm not a quick-draw like my friend and lets be honest. 9.9 out 10, the LEO would have fired for something like that. I'd like to go home at the end of the day. Thats just my opinion. |
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PT111 Regular Member 
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Your friend is very lucky two people were not killed right there. I will refrain from any other comments. |
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thejax Regular Member
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PT111 wrote:Your friend is very lucky two people were not killed right there. I will refrain from any other comments. Hey man, I agree. I was also carrying but concealed as ofcourse I am in public and not in the mood to be bothered. My friend on the other hand is very comfortable with open carry and thats his choice. But I would say he would of been shot. When the guns drew I put my hands up. I wouldn't of been shot. But my friend, he is very lucky. |
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TFED12 Regular Member 
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I am calling this story Bovine Scatology!!! |
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thejax Regular Member
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So I was nice enough to share a story and I am getting bashed anyway? Love it. I can't win. |
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rscottie Regular Member 
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thejax wrote: So I was nice enough to share a story and I am getting bashed anyway? Love it. I can't win. Actually what got you bashed was the immediate defensive posture you took when MarlboroLts5150 asked a simple question. No one was attacking you as you portend, but your posture sends red flags when you're talking about a forum that has seen its share of bogus stories and even troll behavior. Now, either answer the simple question, which was nothing more than that, because that is the only way you'll convince many here that this story is not either an extreme exaggeration or even a downright lie. |
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thejax Regular Member
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Why would someone make up a story on here? Thats funny. And this forum does have people that will bash you. All and all i'm a nice guy and wanted to send out an experience I had to everyone. But you had a point. Its just a shame I feel I have to answer a question the way everyone wants me to and not say how I really want to feel. But I am probably going to get bashed for making that comment too. Like I said, I'm not offended and everything is fine. So i am sorry if any is offended with anything I said for any reason. I'm just trying to contribue to the group. So lets leave it at that. Last edited on Mon May 11th, 2009 01:30 am by thejax |
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NavyLT Regular Member
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OK. I am all for open carrying and standing up to the cops. I do that. But to draw on one, no way.... that's being a split second from having at least two dead bodies on the ground, assuming the cop isn't wearing a bullet proof vest. My feeling is, the only way to beat a cop is to force them to go to court and have their B.S. shot down by a judge. A dead body that a cop shot and a gun in that dead bodies hand is no way to win in court. I admire your friend for doing what he did, and I am tickled pink about the outcome, but not anything even I would have the cahonies to do. |
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wrightme Regular Member 
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rscottie wrote: thejax wrote:That's odd. He clearly answered the question he was asked. He also stated that he chose to leave his opinion out of it. Fair enough all around, and not deserving of the treatment you give him.So I was nice enough to share a story and I am getting bashed anyway? Love it. I can't win. MarlboroLts5150 wrote: What part of his actions don't you agree with? You didn't specify.question asked... thejax wrote: Hey man, I just wanted to tell the story. I would like to leave my opinion out of this. I know this forum can get heated about people with a difference in opinion. I just wanted to share this with you. I don't want to end up being the bad guy.Question answered.... Last edited on Mon May 11th, 2009 05:39 am by wrightme |
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Pagan Regular Member 
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The story sounds bogus to me. But if it really happened like you wrote, then both of those dudes need some better training. First off, I would not draw my weapon and point it at someone, just to see what they are going to do in response. You already stated that the cop drew his weapon first, so I see your quickdraw friend getting his marksman butt handed to him by the cop, hands down. Second this sounds like some hollywood b*llsh*t, "secure your weapon and I'll unload mine"! Give me a f*cking break man, it ain't going down like that, your friend if still breathing is gonna be ORDERD to the ground, you as well! Maybe I'm wrong, maybe cops in DE are retarded and let people draw down on them all the time  , after having drew their weapon first , maybe it's a trust issue that other cops in the country don't have with other armed folks , that apparently the people in DE have with their cops , must be a different world up there |
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ACEllis Regular Member 
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I'm not normally one to add for fuel to the fire, but your story just stinks to high hell. Your friend fits the fits into some Robert DeNiro role while the officer fits the role of a 'Cop #1' at the bottom of the credits reel. Anyone who has ever been exposed, first or second hand, to police procedure knows there is only two ways that situation would have really ended. Shots or handcuffs. The former takes precedence over the latter. Your account is 3 days old. You wouldn't be the first person who enters the forums with a 'too-hard-to-believe' story. Please take this tale-spinning junk somewhere else. AC |
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jayspapa Regular Member
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Hummmmm.....LEO has your friend covered..your friend draws his gun ...and LEO doesn't shoot your friend . Fast draw or not , I don't know any LEO that wouldn't pull the trigger if they were drawn down on. I also think that anyone who used to be a LEO would know better than to pull such a dumb axx move . I have to say the B S meter is peged out on this one. |
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stephpd Regular Member 
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Pagan wrote: The story sounds bogus to me. But if it really happened like you wrote, then both of those dudes need some better training. First off, I would not draw my weapon and point it at someone, just to see what they are going to do in response. You already stated that the cop drew his weapon first, so I see your quickdraw friend getting his marksman butt handed to him by the cop, hands down.Those of that live in DE are calling BS as well. http://www.deloc.org/deloc/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1886 Christiana Mall is patrolled by Delaware Sate Police. They are the most highly trained and respected police force in the state. I find it hard to believe that they are trained to disarm a suspect from the rear without fist making contact. To the Original Poster. Why not post this story on PAFOA and see what type of reaction you get from those nice folks? http://forum.pafoa.org/ |
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Sonora Rebel Regular Member 
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I was a cop. 'Draw on a cop (with his gun already drawn... for whatever reason) and you're gonna be shot... or shot at at least. 'Read this tale twice and I'm raisin' the B.S. flag. |
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SpringerXDacp Regular Member 
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Welocme to OCDO Thejax. Your "friend" appears to be very pro-OC, did you inform him of this site? Is he a member here? |
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thejax Regular Member
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Sonora Rebel wrote:I was a cop. 'Draw on a cop (with his gun already drawn... for whatever reason) and you're gonna be shot... or shot at at least. 'Read this tale twice and I'm raisin' the B.S. flag. Ha. I think you guys have me all wrong. I just wanted to share a story with you of something that happened to me and my friend. I'm not here to argue or try and prove my story. I mean I know it happened so I mean, its obviously an interesting story. I'm not trying to become popular or entertain anyone nor am I getting any satisfaction. Just wanted to let you guys know. I hope you enjoy my factual experience and if you feel its not true. I can respect that. No arguement. |
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HankT State Researcher 
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SpringerXDacp wrote: Welocme to OCDO Thejax. Your "friend" appears to be very pro-OC, did you inform him of this site? Is he a member here? Or can the "friend" join up, if he's not currently a member? It would be educational to get some information from him about the events described. Let's hear from the man and give him a pat on the back or something... |
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Myopicvisionary Regular Member 
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thejax Regular Member
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HankT wrote:SpringerXDacp wrote:Welocme to OCDO Thejax. Your "friend" appears to be very pro-OC, did you inform him of this site? Is he a member here? I'll ask him. He is very pro-gun but doesn't like to get involved in banter. Like I told him about the site and he said he would glance at it. This was a few days ago. I know though he doesn't like to get involved online in forums due to people who like start problems. I don't know. I'm a nice guy and I like my guns. He is a very serious guy and loves his guns. We are two very different people. The only thing we have in common are guns, cars, and the fact that we like to get away from our girlfriends cause they love to complain. Long story short I will ask him if he wants to join. But I doubt it. |
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HankT State Researcher
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Actually, I (and everybody else) can neither say anything nor judge the OP story because, in the the end, I was not there! |
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Task Force 16 Campaign Veteran
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All I'll say about this is if this really happened as you say, 1) the cop that reached for your friends gun from the rear like he did must have been a total moron rooky, and 2) your friend is a crazy suicidal maniac to draw on another cop. Both are possible, I suppose. |
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wrightme Regular Member
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Task Force 16 wrote: All I'll say about this is if this really happened as you say, 1) the cop that reached for your friends gun from the rear like he did must have been a total moron rooky, and 2) your friend is a crazy suicidal maniac to draw on another cop. Both are possiblecauses for a shortened lifespan. |
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smoking357 Banned 
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thejax wrote:
Why not? Sounds like a great story, and it sounds like your friend would have been completely justified in returning fire if the cop had escalated his terrorism. Cops have to start saying "so?" when people call in an OC'er. OC'ing ought not draw the cops any more than wearing a pear of shoes. Cops really need to learn their place. |
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centsi Campaign Veteran
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Obvioiusly no one here but you knows if this is true, but if it is, your friend is both very brave and very stupid. |
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sean3686 Regular Member
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smoking357 wrote: thejax wrote: delaware cops are not as stupid as you think. I raise the Bs flag, rummors have it that no one in the dsp has heard of this happening. if this did happen outside, after a mall ninja run in, then it should be on camera. if we saw video of this then maybe id believe it. as of now, no way. if you draw on a cop you deserve to be shot, end of story. there were other points of your story that smelled fishy. |
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smoking357 Banned
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sean3686 wrote: if you draw on a cop you deserve to be shot, end of story. Huh? Cops are servants. Servants serve. Cops are untrustworthy and have a horrible reputation. It's now so dire that a citizen needs to fear for his life in the presence of a cop. If a cop unjustifiably draws on a citizen, the citizen has to presume his life is in danger. I'm less worried about an average citizen having a gun than a cop, because a cop can kill with almost seeming impunity, while the citizen has to worry about legal consequences. Here's the rule: If you draw on anyone improperly, no matter who you are, you deserve to be shot. Period. |
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sean3686 Regular Member
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smoking357 wrote: sean3686 wrote:if you draw on a cop you deserve to be shot, end of story. another us vs them. tell a cop you are my servant next time you see one and see how that ends for you. leos drawing and civ drawing are 2 different things. if a cop challenges you and you shot him. you go to jail end of story. if a cop draws on you even if you think you have done nothing wrong and you draw back you you are dumb. if you comply a cop will not shoot at you just because. and cops are no less immune from a shooting than any of us. they take there gun and send it into be examined just like they wold with any other person. I dont know where you get off saying they are immune like they shoot everyone they see doing something wrong. since your not from delaware ill save you the work and give you some of our laws. § 1903. Searching questioned person for weapon. A peace officer may search for a dangerous weapon any person whom the officer has stopped or detained to question as provided in § 1902 of this title, whenever the officer has reasonable ground to believe that the officer is in danger if the person possesses a dangerous weapon. If the officer finds a weapon, the officer may take and keep it until the completion of the questioning, when the officer shall either return it or arrest the person. The arrest may be for the illegal possession of the weapon. (Code 1935, § 5343C; 48 Del. Laws, c. 304; 11 Del. C. 1953, § 1903; 70 Del. Laws, c. 186, § 1.) § 1240. Terroristic threatening of public officials or public servants; class G felony. (a) A person is guilty of terroristic threatening of a public official or public servant when the person threatens to commit any crime likely to result in death or in serious injury to a public official or public servant during or because of the public official's or public servant's exercise of the official's or servant's official functions. § 464. Justification -- Use of force in self-protection. (a) The use of force upon or toward another person is justifiable when the defendant believes that such force is immediately necessary for the purpose of protecting the defendant against the use of unlawful force by the other person on the present occasion. (b) Except as otherwise provided in subsections (d) and (e) of this section, a person employing protective force may estimate the necessity thereof under the circumstances as the person believes them to be when the force is used, without retreating, surrendering possession, doing any other act which the person has no legal duty to do or abstaining from any lawful action. (c) The use of deadly force is justifiable under this section if the defendant believes that such force is necessary to protect the defendant against death, serious physical injury, kidnapping or sexual intercourse compelled by force or threat. (d) The use of force is not justifiable under this section to resist an arrest which the defendant knows or should know is being made by a peace officer, whether or not the arrest is lawful. the last one you fail at. the individual should have been arrested. end of story. |
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rady8um Regular Member
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I can't believe all you guys overlooked the part about his friend having a Maryland AND a New Jersey carry permit. HA! That alone should have pegged the B.S. meter to FULL LOAD! Entertaining story though. Can anybody get him to tell us another. PLEASE! PLEASE! PLEASE! |
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smoking357 Banned
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sean3686 wrote: leos drawing and civ drawing are 2 different things. Police officers are civilians. |
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Agent19 Regular Member 
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rady8um wrote: I can't believe all you guys overlooked the part about his friend having a Maryland AND a New Jersey carry permit. HA! He might be covered under H.R. 218, he was former LE. http://www.leaa.org/218/218text.html Not really a permit but permitted. ETA: I agree with the conscious, where is that FLAG. Last edited on Fri May 15th, 2009 03:06 pm by Agent19 |
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DKSuddeth Regular Member 
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sean3686 wrote: You fail that last one. NUMEROUS us supreme court decisions as well as natural law render said quoted section unconstitutional. |
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sean3686 Regular Member
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I dont see any quotes... and im gonna find it hard to believe that its legal to draw down on a cop. and Id say the DA here in delaware would go after you for that as well and with our liberal judges you would probably be guilty. |
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smoking357 Banned
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DKSuddeth wrote: You fail that last one. NUMEROUS us supreme court decisions as well as natural law render said quoted section unconstitutional. Well said. A person has a right to defend himself from a thug, regardless of the costume a thug is wearing. Thanks for the cite to natural law. People need to be reminded of the highest law, from time to time. |
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American Rattlesnake Regular Member 
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smoking357 wrote: Thanks for the cite to natural law. Indeed. See also John Bad Elk v. United States. |
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thejax Regular Member
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rady8um wrote:I can't believe all you guys overlooked the part about his friend having a Maryland AND a New Jersey carry permit. HA! Not that I should reply to your banter but he was an LEO in MD and NJ, which is obviously why he has a permit. I am not listing the Depts for the obvious reasons but you can think what you want. Like I said, I just wanted to share a story about my experience with my friend. Thats about it. |
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DKSuddeth Regular Member
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sean3686 wrote: I dont see any quotes...You want quotes? (We the people) "Citizens may resist unlawful arrest to the point of taking an arresting officer's life if necessary." Plummer v. State, 136 Ind. 306. This premise was upheld by the Supreme Court of the United States in the case: John Bad Elk v. U.S., 177 U.S. 529. The Court stated: "Where the officer is killed in the course of the disorder which naturally accompanies an attempted arrest that is resisted, the law looks with very different eyes upon the transaction, when the officer had the right to make the arrest, from what it does if the officer had no right. What may be murder in the first case might be nothing more than manslaughter in the other, or the facts might show that no offense had been committed." "An arrest made with a defective warrant, or one issued without affidavit, or one that fails to allege a crime is within jurisdiction, and one who is being arrested, may resist arrest and break away. If the arresting officer is killed by one who is so resisting, the killing will be no more than an involuntary manslaughter." Housh v. People, 75 111. 491; reaffirmed and quoted in State v. Leach, 7 Conn. 452; State v. Gleason, 32 Kan. 245; Ballard v. State, 43 Ohio 349; State v Rousseau, 241 P. 2d 447; State v. Spaulding, 34 Minn. 3621. "When a person, being without fault, is in a place where he has a right to be, is violently assaulted, he may, without retreating, repel by force, and if, in the reasonable exercise of his right of self defense, his assailant is killed, he is justified." Runyan v. State, 57 Ind. 80; Miller v. State, 74 Ind. 1. "These principles apply as well to an officer attempting to make an arrest, who abuses his authority and transcends the bounds thereof by the use of unnecessary force and violence, as they do to a private individual who unlawfully uses such force and violence." Jones v. State, 26 Tex. App. I; Beaverts v. State, 4 Tex. App. 1 75; Skidmore v. State, 43 Tex. 93, 903. "An illegal arrest is an assault and battery. The person so attempted to be restrained of his liberty has the same right to use force in defending himself as he would in repelling any other assault and battery." (State v. Robinson, 145 ME. 77, 72 ATL. 260). "Each person has the right to resist an unlawful arrest. In such a case, the person attempting the arrest stands in the position of a wrongdoer and may be resisted by the use of force, as in self- defense." (State v. Mobley, 240 N.C. 476, 83 S.E. 2d 100). "One may come to the aid of another being unlawfully arrested, just as he may where one is being assaulted, molested, raped or kidnapped. Thus it is not an offense to liberate one from the unlawful custody of an officer, even though he may have submitted to such custody, without resistance." (Adams v. State, 121 Ga. 16, 48 S.E. 910). "Story affirmed the right of self-defense by persons held illegally. In his own writings, he had admitted that 'a situation could arise in which the checks-and-balances principle ceased to work and the various branches of government concurred in a gross usurpation.' There would be no usual remedy by changing the law or passing an amendment to the Constitution, should the oppressed party be a minority. Story concluded, 'If there be any remedy at all ... it is a remedy never provided for by human institutions.' That was the 'ultimate right of all human beings in extreme cases to resist oppression, and to apply force against ruinous injustice.'" (From Mutiny on the Amistad by Howard Jones, Oxford University Press, 1987, an account of the reading of the decision in the case by Justice Joseph Story of the Supreme Court. As for grounds for arrest: "The carrying of arms in a quiet, peaceable, and orderly manner, concealed on or about the person, is not a breach of the peace. Nor does such an act of itself, lead to a breach of the peace." (Wharton's Criminal and Civil Procedure, 12th Ed., Vol.2: Judy v. Lashley, 5 W. Va. 628, 41 S.E. 197) |
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sean3686 Regular Member
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the cop never said he was under arrest.. detain and arrest are different. |
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American Rattlesnake Regular Member
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sean3686 wrote: the cop never said he was under arrest.. Are you saying that the application of deadly force (officer drew his weapon) to detain a person is legal? Are you saying that while it is legal to resist unlawful arrest with the necessary level of force (as is well demonstrated by DKSuddeth's citations) it is unlawful to resist an unlawful detention with the same level of force? Last edited on Fri May 15th, 2009 08:16 pm by American Rattlesnake |
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DKSuddeth Regular Member
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sean3686 wrote: the cop never said he was under arrest.."When a person, being without fault, is in a place where he has a right to be, is violently assaulted, he may, without retreating, repel by force, and if, in the reasonable exercise of his right of self defense, his assailant is killed, he is justified." Runyan v. State, 57 Ind. 80; Miller v. State, 74 Ind. 1. By attempting to snatch a deadly weapon BEFORE detaining said individual and THEN drawing a deadly weapon constitutes violent assault. |
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smoking357 Banned
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DKSuddeth wrote: sean3686 wrote:the cop never said he was under arrest.."When a person, being without fault, is in a place where he has a right to be, is violently assaulted, he may, without retreating, repel by force, and if, in the reasonable exercise of his right of self defense, his assailant is killed, he is justified." Runyan v. State, 57 Ind. 80; Miller v. State, 74 Ind. 1. "Assault" is placing one in fear of imminent bodily harm. Tasers are lethal weapons, often deadlier than guns. If a cop puts his hand near his gun or his Taser improperly, a citizen should darn well be in fear for his life and respond accordingly. |
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Thundar Regular Member 
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American Rattlesnake wrote: sean3686 wrote:the cop never said he was under arrest.. Unfortunately this is exactly the case in Virginia. Virginia common law allows for the resistance to unlawful arrest up to and including deadly force, but such resistance is not permitted for an unlawful detention. Each state is, I am sure, different. |
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American Rattlesnake Regular Member
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Thundar wrote: American Rattlesnake wrote:sean3686 wrote:the cop never said he was under arrest.. I suppose that makes sense; the detention is more or less a "stop and talk" type situation. Can you walk away from a detention? Can you "detain" someone at gunpoint? That sounds more to me like an "arrest" regardless of what the officer calls it. |
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Hawker Regular Member 
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thejax wrote: Hey man, I agree. I was also carrying but concealed as ofcourse I am in public and not in the mood to be bothered. My friend on the other hand is very comfortable with open carry and thats his choice. But I would say he would of been shot. When the guns drew I put my hands up. I wouldn't of been shot. But my friend, he is very lucky. You say that you were carrying concealed. You indicate that you reside in PA. What qualifications do you have to legally carry concealed in Delaware? PA and DE do not share reciprosity. |
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Ian Lone Star Veteran 
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If this story is true, both the officer and your friend handled it VERY poorly. First, the officer shouldnt've just grabbed for your friend's gun without making contact, he needs to learn the law. This cop must be a rookie. I don't know any cop that wouldn't fire if drawed on. That cop needs a new line of work because they're going to get themselves or someone else killed. |
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marshaul Activist Member 
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I draw on LEOs all the time. In GTA. |
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