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OpenCarry.org - Discussion Forum > Stories From The States > Kentucky > OC Picnic-Possible Dates/Locations
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| OpenCarry.org - Discussion Forum > Stories From The States > Kentucky > OC Picnic-Possible Dates/Locations
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8th ID Regular Member
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Since our first meet & greet went so well here in Lex. yesterday, I thought we might throw around the idea of doing a picnic-getting more OCer's out and including family members/spouses/kids, etc. I think Liberty4Ever mentioned this yesterday. Anyway, I'm not real sure about starting a poll for dates, etc. So, if someone would like to do that, it's fine. Maybe just start a discussion on what people would like to do. |
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Fred Regular Member
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I was looking at the posting options. You have to add the poll when you start the thread. Not sure if you can edit a thread as the author and put the poll in. I'm up for a picnic just need to know well in advance to so I can plan accordingly. Got the litter pickup on the 21st of June. My opininon is that we have it in July possibly the 11th. I know liberty4life has the dates the park isn't reserved so the best thing is to go off of dates not taken. |
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8th ID Regular Member
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I really thought this thread would get more traffic Anyway-anyone want to BBQ some time this summer? |
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8th ID Regular Member
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Well, I'll do a couple more posts on this topic to keep it near the top. And then I'm done. If no one is interested, that's fine. maybe I'll try again later in the year. |
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BigBubba Regular Member 
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i'll do my best to be there as long as there is some notice so i can arrange my work schedule to be there, a picnic or BBQ sounds great to me ... also planning to do the Guns and Garbage thing on the 21st if i can get the time off work.. hopefully i'll see you guys at one or both of the events P.S. Dates, end of anywhere from Mid June to Late July would work for me (just allowing for time to get out of work) ... as for locations a Jacobson Park shelter as Liberty4Ever had suggested in another post seems like a good location to me, or are you looking for another resteraunt type of setting ? Last edited on Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 08:49 am by BigBubba |
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Fred Regular Member
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If we can get a big enough group to commit we should try for the BBQ in the park. If not the restauraunt thing would be best. Meet at a different one every month testing the waters in different parts of lex. Just throwing some ideas out there. |
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8th ID Regular Member
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I hope we could do a picnic, etc. For those wanting to bring family/kids/friends, I believe something at a park would give us more options, etc. And location, well, I'm willing to travel, so it doesn't have to be in Lex. Let's all just throw out some ideas... |
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TheMrMitch Regular Member 
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I'm hoping a contractor will take the trees I've offered and clean a little from the ice storm. Ruined my Utopia. If he does his part, my land will be volunteered for a picnic. Got a nice pit, running water and a 140 yard shooting range. Pond and small wooded trails.  |
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8th ID Regular Member
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TheMrMitch wrote: I'm hoping a contractor will take the trees I've offered and clean a little from the ice storm. Ruined my Utopia. NICE! I'm in  |
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Cottonbaler Regular Member
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The Louisville members of AR15.com have been holding OC dinners at Beef O'Brady's near Papa Johns Cardinal stadium for a couple of months now and next time we schedule one I'll post it here. The Northern KY ARFCOMers do the same thing near the Covington area. A lot of us are using the OC picnic at New Bethel Church as our June event so I'll keep everyone advised of our July dinner. |
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BigBubba Regular Member
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TheMrMitch wrote: I'm hoping a contractor will take the trees I've offered and clean a little from the ice storm. Ruined my Utopia. sounds like a plan to me, just let us know when |
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langzaiguy Regular Member
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Mid to Late July works best for me. I'm up for any place really! Preferably with an hour of Lex. |
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Fred Regular Member
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langzaiguy wrote: Mid to Late July works best for me. I'm up for any place really! Preferably with an hour of Lex. Same here as I'm already driving 3+ hours so distance won't be too much of a deal for me. Late july would work for me also. Got a buddy I know who just started open carrying I'm sure he would come up with me as well. |
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kentuckyshiner85 Regular Member 
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TheMrMitch wrote: I'm hoping a contractor will take the trees I've offered and clean a little from the ice storm. Ruined my Utopia. sounds good to me too. How about July the 11th. |
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Cyklopz Regular Member
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I'd like to make something like this. I try to keep an eye out and if the timing works maybe my wife and I can make it. C |
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chris in va Regular Member
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Anything firmed up yet? My friend would like to come as well, provided there will be good eats. |
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Fred Regular Member
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Hey 8th ID throw a date and time out lets see what kind of feedback the thread gets. |
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8th ID Regular Member
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Fred wrote: Hey 8th ID throw a date and time out lets see what kind of feedback the thread gets. I'm still waiting to see if TheMrMitch is going to come up with a location Seems like some time in late July would work  |
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BigBubba Regular Member
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so what say TheMrMitch ? any word from the cleanup fella yet? And, is anyone up for another CB lunch or dinner in Lex at the end of this month? Last edited on Mon Jun 15th, 2009 01:08 am by BigBubba |
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8th ID Regular Member
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I could do something in Lex at CB some time. |
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Fred Regular Member
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8th ID wrote: I could do something in Lex at CB some time. CB again doesn't sound bad. I'm in if something firms up. Any one got word if Mitch's place was going to work out for the BBQ? |
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TheMrMitch Regular Member
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The contractor hasn't showed yet. I gave him the wood and told him to harvest any standing pine for cleanup services only. ???? |
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Liberty4Ever Regular Member 
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Sorry I'm late to this thread. I should check in more often! Work and life have been busy lately. I was planning on getting serious about an open carry picnic right after Guns And Garbage, which was yesterday. I did some research about Jacobson Park shelter availability and came here to start a thread and found this one had been going for three weeks. The 1 and 2 shelters at Jacobson are booked on Saturdays and Sundays through at least September. These are the high traffic shelters near the lake. I thought they'd be good if the goal was to do a little public education while we have a fun picnic. Almost all Friday evenings are available, and other weekdays as well if anyone wants to have an evening picnic. Shelter 3 has some Saturday and Sunday slots available in August and September. Ditto for shelter 4, which is also available Sunday the 5th of July. Shelter 5 has some Saturdays and Sundays open in August and September, and is also available Sunday, July 26th. Shelter 6 has some Saturdays and Sundays in August and September. If this is more of a social function and less a public education event, then we could have a picnic anywhere. Smaller Lexington parks like Constitution Park on the north side have barbecue grills and don't need reservations. If someone is offering private property for a picnic with an adjacent shooting range, that's a very tempting offer. I registered online with the Lexington Parks Department. What a hassle. In a few days, when they approve my registration, I can reserve a shelter if we decide to go that route. Government....  |
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Liberty4Ever Regular Member
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One other thing.... As kind as TheMrMitch was to offer the use of his property, Hodgenville is a fairly long drive for those of us around Lexington. We might get better attendance if we had a picnic closer to a larger population center, and it would definitely provide a lot more opportunity to educate the public about their right to keep and bear arms. I have a good one page handout that explains the federal, state and local gun laws in Kentucky. That could be a handy educational tool if someone was sure an open carry picnic wasn't legal but didn't know the laws off the top of their head. I've seen that a bit too often. People think they know the law but all they really know is what's usual, not what's legal. We could show them the law and do some educating. |
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8th ID Regular Member
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Liberty4Ever wrote: I have a good one page handout that explains the federal, state and local gun laws in Kentucky. Liberty-Thanks for my copy you gave me yesterday at the G&G event. It's VERY informative and I can see myself showing/giving them to the uneducated. I have already made copies...many copies. thanks! And a picnic in Lex. at Jacobson sounds great. |
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Liberty4Ever Regular Member
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Sorry, I should have included a linky for the Kentucky gun laws flier I made. http://www.GunsAndGarbage.com/KentuckyGunLaws.pdf |
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Fred Regular Member
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Liberty4Ever wrote: Sorry, I should have included a linky for the Kentucky gun laws flier I made. Wow very good handout. Gonna secure me a copy. |
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8th ID Regular Member
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Anyone have a possible date for an OC picnic? |
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Statesman Regular Member 
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Liberty4Ever wrote: Sorry, I should have included a linky for the Kentucky gun laws flier I made. Liberty, Can you also include KRS 237.110 and 020 and possibly chapter 527 here? The former is particularly important. |
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Liberty4Ever Regular Member
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Statesman wrote: Thanks for the info. I'll take a look and revise as appropriate, and post a notice when the changes are made (hopefuly tonight). Now on to the original topic. Dates for the OC Picnic! I checked and Saturdays and Sundays are booked for the Jacobson Park shelters through July. There are three shelters available on Saturday, 29AUG09. The following Sunday dates are available in August: 2 (1) 9 (2) 16 (2) 23 (4) 30 (3) The numbers in parentheses indicate how many shelters were available a couple of days ago. At Shilito Park (out Nicholasville Road, just inside Man O War Blvd), all shelters are booked in July. At Masterson Station Park (out Leestown Pike, aka West Main Street, about two miles past New Circle Road), there was one shelter available on Saturday, 25JUL09, and one shelter on Sunday 19JUL09. At Veterans Park (Tates Creek Road, outside Man O War Blvd) there was a shelter available on Saturday, 18JUL09 and Saturday, 25JUL09, and the following shelters available on Sunday: 12 (3) 19 (4) 26 (4) I'll go ahead and state my preference, but I'm of course open to whatever the group decides. I'd like to go with Jacobson, preferably on a Saturday that doesn't conflict with any holiday, even if it means waiting until August. I figure we need a month to properly promote the Open Carry picnic anyway, and I like Jacobson because it's pretty much Lexington's premier park. I always saw the Open Carry Picnic as something we'd do for public education and the socializing is just a nice side benefit for me. I want to be open carrying, loud and proud, right out in the open. I have no reason to be ashamed, and I want the image that there isn't anything at all wrong with open carrying in any city park. We're completely legal and right to be there responsibly practicing our right to keep and bear arms, and Jacobson Park sends the message that OC is OK in LEX. From a public relations perspective I think Jacobson Park would make the strongest pro-2A statement. I was goofy busy getting ready for the 4th of July all of last week and I've had these shelter availability dates sitting on my desk for several days but never could find ten minutes to post them. BTW - Check out what I did for Independence Day (liberty related, but not directly gun related). I was Big Bad Uncle Sam, like Lexington has never seen before! http://www.campaignforliberty.com/blog.php?view=21306 |
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8th ID Regular Member
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HOLY CRAP!! BIG BAD UNCLE SAMI bet the mayor and others were about to CRAP on themselves. That was awesome!! Anyway-back on the picnic-I would also prefer Jacobson Park. I'm OK with Saturday or Sunday. But a Sunday would work best. I think what you're going to have to do is just put a date out there or set up a poll with possible dates. |
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BigBubba Regular Member
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29AUG09 at Jackobson sounds like the best plan to me, dont get much more public than Jackobson and it gives people plenty of time to plan for it, and its not far from I-75 for our out of town friends |
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Liberty4Ever Regular Member
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The only reason I suggested Saturday was because I thought attendance might be better, but I'm clearly not good at determining that. I defer to you guys. The upcoming weekend is out for me, and I'm busy 1AUG09, but otherwise, I think I'm OK with anything. |
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8th ID Regular Member
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I vote for 29 August. |
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Liberty4Ever Regular Member
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It looks like the consensus is building for August 29th. Currently, Jacobson Shelters 4, 5, 6, and 7 are available on that date, but shelter 4 is huge and rents for almost twice the money. I'd like to get #6, because it's close to a kid's play area (not the Creative Playground, but still a fun little area for the kids), it's close to the lake, and it's reasonably close to restrooms. It's not out in the boonies. It's centrally located. People would see the open carry picnic, so there would be some educational value. Here's a map of the park. http://www.lexingtonky.gov/Modules/ShowDocument.aspx?documentid=2936 How long should we leave this open to comments and votes before calling a date and reserving a shelter? Is there a good way to notify people who'd like to have some input but haven't seen this thread? If it's on a Saturday, what's a good time for a picnic? Last edited on Tue Jul 7th, 2009 07:01 pm by Liberty4Ever |
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8th ID Regular Member
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#6 sounds great! I would suggest 2 p.m. for a time. A little after lunch-maybe there could be some social time before we eat, etc. Just a suggestion. Also, how much does the shelter cost? And shouldn't we ask for a little help with the shelter fee? I'm all up for helping out with the fee. As far as getting the word out-well...maybe starting another thread on here with the actual date... |
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BigBubba Regular Member
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of the ones that are available #6 looks like our best bet, wish we could get #1 or #2 to get a lil more traffic past us if we want alot of public attention, and the $35fee could easily split up over a few people, $5 over 7 people would cover it, i'll cover $10 if nobody seems to want to chip in Maybe we need to start a new thread with the 29AUG09 date and a picture of that map so people can pin point the event edited to add: the 2pm time 8th ID suggested sounds about right. What are we gonna do about food and drinks? Cant have a picnic without food and drinks. When I get to work tommorrow I'll check the prices on a bunch of paper plates and plasic cups. Best bet on the food IMO would be if anyone has a sam's club membership to get em there or we could have people bring stuff. Last edited on Wed Jul 8th, 2009 06:53 am by BigBubba |
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Liberty4Ever Regular Member
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I've been wanting to do this for a long time and I'm glad it's finally happening. I'll cover the cost of the shelter. No strings attached. For food, everyone bring something and we share? There's always way too much food at these sorts of events. Maybe there will be a lot of KFC and Kroger's potato salad, but is that so terrible? We could start a signup sheet for food, but I'm hoping that this can spread far beyond just this forum. I'm hoping we can all invite family, friends, co-workers and neighbors. I'll get the word out to a couple of liberty groups. They would enjoy exercising their right to keep and bear arms. I'll probably try promoting this via the gun stores again, although that didn't work very well the last time. I can make fliers if anyone knows a good place to post them. I'll even print them in bulk and mail them to anyone who would like to promote the event. Any ideas on how to promote this far and wide and get an impressive turnout? Too bad billboards are so expensive. An open carry picnic billboard ad would be awesome. |
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BigBubba Regular Member
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Liberty4Ever wrote: Too bad billboards are so expensive. An open carry picnic billboard ad would be awesome. Yeah it would be. ... I'll take some of those fliers to post around, some grocery stores, laundromats, cigarette stores, maybe some gas stations will let us post em. And any internet forum we can find. Wonder if we could get enough people to make it big enough to invite a radio station to do a remote or somethin? edited to add: just a suggestion on the fliers, if anyone is good with photoshop, drawing, or graphic design .. a picnic table cloth (checkered) with a plate of food and a drink in a plastic cup and a gun laying next to them. "OpenCarry.org brings you Central Ky's Gun's and Grub !" Last edited on Wed Jul 8th, 2009 09:44 am by BigBubba |
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spioi Regular Member 
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If I lived closer I'd pass out fliers to everyone I know. I'll pass the word out and offer ride to anyone who wants to go up here. I got brats and metts I can bring. |
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Liberty4Ever Regular Member
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BigBubba wrote: a picnic table cloth (checkered) with a plate of food and a drink in a plastic cup and a gun laying next to them. Great idea! I think potato salad would be difficult to recognize in a black and white image, but a burger, corn on the cob, and a slice of watermelon should be very recognizable. Place setting question: I know about the little fork and the big fork, but on which side of the plate does the pistol go? |
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Statesman Regular Member
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Why not just use the Republican Party's picnic this Saturday? Since we know Republicans are gun friendly *cough* and all, they would invite legal gun carry at their public event. Rand Paul is guest speaker, and may be running for the 2010 Senate to replace Jim Bunning. http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum25/28251.html http://www.randpaul2010.com/event/2009/july/republican-party-picnic |
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TheMrMitch Regular Member
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Liberty4Ever wrote:
Strong Side. |
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BigBubba Regular Member
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TheMrMitch wrote: Liberty4Ever wrote:my thoughts exactly |
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8th ID Regular Member
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I must say what really blows my mind is that there are many people who have viewed this thread and FEW who have committed to coming out to a picnic. Maybe the date is too far away or maybe because the date is not really set yet. Come on people, let's have an OC picnic!! |
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Liberty4Ever Regular Member
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If it's going to be August 29th, we'd better get on it. Jacobson Shelter 6 is still available (as of an hour ago), but they're going fast. All Jacobson, Shiito and Masterson Station shelters are already reserved for every Saturday in September. |
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8th ID Regular Member
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Well, I will do the 29th. But here's my opinion-I wouldn't want Liberty to shell out the shelter fee and then 5 people show for the picnic. So...I'm going to leave it to Liberty to make the call... |
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Liberty4Ever Regular Member
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I'd like us to leave it open for discussion longer, but I'm a bit worried that we'd be October getting a Saturday in Jacobson. I guess a Sunday wouldn't kill us. I'm leaving at o'dark 30 tomorrow morning for a long weekend shooting event in Kansas (not looking forward to 26 hours of driving). I can reserve shelter 6 at Jacobson for 29AUG09 today, or we can leave it until Monday for more people to comment and hope the shelter is still available. We've only been kicking this around for about three days and I know a lot of people haven't weighed in. I was very late coming to this thread when it was started because I was set up for notifications on the other threads but didn't check the forum for new threads. Just let me know. If I don't hear anything, It'll default to Monday. I'm looking forward to this! I'd like to make fliers today, but I won't have the opportunity until Monday, or probably Tuesday. |
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Statesman Regular Member
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8th ID wrote: I must say what really blows my mind is that there are many people who have viewed this thread and FEW who have committed to coming out to a picnic. Some/many views are from out of state. There are no restrictions as to location versus access, as far as I know. Also, many people don't like to make a commitment to coming out, until a day or two before. Some people may just show up. Like I mentioned to Liberty4Ever, build it (GunsAndGarbage) and they will come, if your cause is just. People need time to evaluate. We can try scheduling regular OC picnics, on a specific day, that way everyone can plan around it. I think constantly changing dates each time, keeps people guessing as to what they may have to do. Every month, or two, on the same day, and people may be able to better prepare for the event in advance. It might be a good idea to schedule some interesting activities for adults and children that day in the park. My two cents. Worth what ya paid for it. |
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gutshot Regular Member
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8th ID wrote: I must say what really blows my mind is that there are many people who have viewed this thread and FEW who have committed to coming out to a picnic. As always, I will be there if a date is ever set and there is any possible way. |
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BigBubba Regular Member
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Statesman wrote: ... snip... It might be a good idea to schedule some interesting activities for adults and children that day in the park. Activities, great idea .. Didnt even cross my mind .. Anybody got a couple of cornhole sets? If not, I been lookin for a reason to make some anyway. Thats some fun for all ages. |
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8th ID Regular Member
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If kids are coming-how about squirt guns and water balloons? Though I'm not sure if all the shelters have a water source... Anyone else want to chime in for 8/29?? |
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spioi Regular Member
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how about an OC soccer game? we can have door prizes donated by anyone that comes. aug 29th is good for me. should give ppl a chance to plan for it. I can hop on the freeway and buzz on down. Attached Image (viewed 65 times): |
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8th ID Regular Member
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Holy SH  Is that you? |
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Fred Regular Member
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As of right now the 8/29 would work for me. |
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kentuckyshiner85 Regular Member
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8/29 is good for me but how about a park that has recently been opened to fireams carry? Scott co. park . It's just a small jump from Lex. large new playgroun for the kids. What do yall think? |
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Liberty4Ever Regular Member
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I'd love to see a large crowd of people open carrying at the Scott County park. That's certainly a place where some education would be a good idea, for the public, as well as those who tried to use the power of government to alienate an unalienable right. I think Jacobson Park needs to happen for Lexington, but I also think Scott County needs an open carry picnic too. I'd be up for both. After all, a picnic isn't a lot of hard work. Picnics are fun! |
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8th ID Regular Member
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I don't mind driving to Scott Co. I just hope we can get enough people to show up... |
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spioi Regular Member
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nah. that isn't me. found it on the web. you gotta have some brass ones to hit the road OCing an AK. whatever park is decided on, someone should scout for GB signs. I went to an OC picnic yesterday and the park had a GB sign posted on the BACK of the outhouse building. even though it wasn't legal anymore, it was still up. Attached Image (viewed 54 times): |
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Liberty4Ever Regular Member
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spioi wrote: whatever park is decided on, someone should scout for GB signs.Are you saying we should go where the illegal gun buster signs are displayed, or avoid those areas?  No gun buster signs at Jacobson Park in Lexington. Kentucky has a preemption law that prevents local governments from regulating open carry except in very specific circumstances that do not include city parks. |
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Fred Regular Member
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Looks to me like they are only banning revolvers. The picture is very specific....lol. |
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8th ID Regular Member
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Anyone gonna come to the picnic???? |
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kentuckyshiner85 Regular Member
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count me in either in Scott co. or at Jacobson park there are grill at both and I do know that scott co. p. has a water source if needed we could do both at diff times. I don't know which one to pick . but the 29th is ok with me. |
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langzaiguy Regular Member
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29th at either location is fine with me! |
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spioi Regular Member
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maybe I'll camp out the night before and go to the picnic the next day. I got food. maybe some buffalo burgers |
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langzaiguy Regular Member
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The last time I went camping I made sloppy joes with buffalo meat. So are you allowed to pitch a tent in Jacobson park? |
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Liberty4Ever Regular Member
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No camping in Jacobson. Like the sign says, the park closes at dark. |
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mnick426 Regular Member
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i wanna go 29th sounds good to me |
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kentuckyshiner85 Regular Member
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The same at Scott Co. but there is a pay lake close by not sure of the cost or actual directions. |
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BigBubba Regular Member
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if u wanna camp just go around to the golf course side where people fish all night, that side never closes edited to add: at Jacobson i meen .. dunno anything bout scott county Last edited on Sat Jul 18th, 2009 02:19 am by BigBubba |
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8th ID Regular Member
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I'm all in for August 29th. I don't care where...I'll be there. How about kids-anyone bringing any-their own or anyone elses? |
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KY_CCDW Regular Member
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8th ID wrote: I'm all in for August 29th. I don't care where...I'll be there. How about kids-anyone bringing any-their own or anyone elses? If I don't have a class that Saturday, I'll be bringing my father-in-law's little girl.  |
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ariadiscordia Regular Member
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Hi, I'm new to this site. A picnic sounds great! I will be carrying a Bersa Thunder .380 and my husband will be carrying a Walther P22. We will also be bringing my 8 year old daughter. Does any one know for sure yet where it will be? I'm assuming it will happen on August 29 after reading here. Just let me know where and what time and we'll be there! Last edited on Sun Jul 19th, 2009 08:06 pm by ariadiscordia |
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8th ID Regular Member
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ariadiscordia wrote: Hi, I'm new to this site. A picnic sounds great! I will be carrying a Bersa Thunder .380 and my husband will be carrying a Walther P22. We will also be bringing my 8 year old daughter. Does any one know for sure yet where it will be? I'm assuming it will happen on August 29 after reading here. Just let me know where and what time and we'll be there! Welcome! And I believe it's on August 29th. Just read back through this thread. Right now, I think the tentative site will be somewhere in Jacobson Park in Lexington. |
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ariadiscordia Regular Member
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Excellent! And thank you for the welcome! I can print up some fliers; I saw the suggested picnic table with food, place settings and gun. I think I can do that; I have photoshop. I can hand them out here in Lawrenceburg and in Frankfort. Although I don't have any cornhole sets, I can bring water balloons for the kids, and see if I can find my horseshoe set. I'll figure something out to bring for the kids to have fun. |
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8th ID Regular Member
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Sounds like we have the begginings of a great picnic, and may be able to do some education about the 2A and open carry in KY. When we get a date and location pinned down, maybe we can do another thread of what people are bringing so we'll have the essentials covered... |
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BigBubba Regular Member
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ariadiscordia wrote: Excellent! And thank you for the welcome! I can print up some fliers; I saw the suggested picnic table with food, place settings and gun. I think I can do that; I have photoshop. I can hand them out here in Lawrenceburg and in Frankfort. Although I don't have any cornhole sets, I can bring water balloons for the kids, and see if I can find my horseshoe set. I'll figure something out to bring for the kids to have fun. awesome, someone that can make the fliers ... if you do design these please post a link for others to print from, i would like to have some to hand out and post edited to add: from what i understand we'r gonna be at shelter #6 in Jacobson Park in Lexington on Saturday August 29th. To Liberty: did u already reserve that shelter or are we still unsure on location? Last edited on Mon Jul 20th, 2009 07:11 am by BigBubba |
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Liberty4Ever Regular Member
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I just logged in to make the reservation for August 29th and well into the reservation process, they provide a lengthy page of rules. There were two rules in the January 3rd 2008 rules that seemed problematic.2. All rentals are for personal/family use. Large groups, organization events, company picnics, gatherings, retreats, the use of rental equipment or other uses may require an additional permit. I'll call about this tomorrow and get some clarification. I won't mention firearms, because.... Here's the kicker: 9. Weapons and/or firearms are not allowed within any park. I don't think that's legal! I haven't noticed Jacobson Park having any signs saying that weapons are prohibited. I need to verify that. I think we need to research this and if banning firearms is not legal, then we need to challenge this rule! We have a state preemption law that specifically prohibits urban county governments (yes, it was written that way specifically to include Lexington) from occupying any space of firearms regulation. In other words, Kentucky laws apply and Lexington can not impose stricter laws. I'll look into this further, but if any of you know the specific law, please post. From what I think I know, I believe this is a case where Lexington may be asserting authority they do not have. If so, they will be forced to back down. All I wanted to do is have an open carry picnic, but now I'm forced to play lawyer and read a bunch of legalese. This certainly looks like the LFUCG is out of line. This is the state attorney general saying that Louisville's ordinance prohibiting concealed carry was illegal because it violated the state firearms preemption law. http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/agopinions/KYAGOp99_10.pdf Here's the preemption law: http://www.lrc.ky.gov/KRS/065-00/870.PDF "No city, county or urban-county government may occupy any part of the field of regulation of the transfer, ownership, possession, carrying or transportation of firearms, ammunition, or components of firearms or combination thereof." Here's the exception to the preemption: http://www.lrc.ky.gov/KRS/237-00/115.PDF The way I read it, the city can regulate CONCEALED carry in buildings they own or lease (but not residences or gun ranges), but they can't infringe on open carry at all, and they can't infringe on any gun rights in the park itself outside of any structures. I think the law is on our side. The hard part will be convincing the government. Governments are notorious for not following the law and trying to get away with it. Of course, citizens would need to take time off work and pay to fight for their rights, while the city uses tax dollars to pay all the salaried city employees who fight to take away our rights. Even when the citizens win such a fight, they earn the restoration of their rights, but there is a significant cost associated with fighting city hall. Governments that infringe on a citizen's rights and use their tax dollars to do it should compensate the citizens three fold for lost wages and expenses when they are victorious, IMO. On a side note, I went to a neighborhood association meeting tonight. I've been to several of them. They're held in a small building in a small Lexington city park. This time, after the meeting, I was walking out the door and noticed a red LFUCG sign on the inside of the door that informed me that carrying concealed deadly weapons in that building was prohibited. Well, gee, it looks like they'd have put that on the OUTSIDE of the door so I could see it when walking into the building. In addition to a 9mm I had in my back pocket, I had a SOG Aegis assisted folding knife in my front pocket, and the blade length may designate that knife as a deadly weapon. I've forgotten the exact law on that. I should read that again now that it applies to me. I was carrying a tiny Buck pen knife the first time I read that and it didn't apply, but I traded up to the SOG so it could serve as a backup defensive weapon. Well, I knew that advocating for gun rights in Lexington, the most anti-gun part of Kentucky wouldn't be easy. I suspect a lot of these anti-gun initiatives were put in place while we were not pushing for our gun rights, so in that case, we're overdue for some citizen action. Governments will grow and take all the liberty from their citizens that they can. It is the very nature of government. It looks like we have our work cut out for us. I hope we can resolve this in our favor without a legal battle. |
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Liberty4Ever Regular Member
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I need to read about the Scott County park and how they fought the illegal gun ban. We should learn from the success of others. Before this is over, we may need to root out every place where local governments are trying to enforce illegal anti-gun laws and correct these situations, one at a time until they are all gone. I can tell you from personal experience that fighting for liberty is a full time job. Sometimes I feel sorry for myself and I feel that others have liberty without any work because I can't stand to see our liberty stripped away and I feel compelled to fight for liberty for all, but then I see the work others do and I'm grateful, and sometimes I'm humbled by their enormous efforts. There are a lot of people getting a free ride on the liberty train, though. |
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8th ID Regular Member
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LIBERTY4EVER-Well, looks like we may have a problem. I looked up Lexington's rules on the no guns in any park. The only thing i found talked about buildings. Basically it said what the preemption said-and I think they could win this-the part about a building or any portion of a building-well a portion could be a shelter. |
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Liberty4Ever Regular Member
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8th ID wrote: LIBERTY4EVER-Well, looks like we may have a problem. I looked up Lexington's rules on the no guns in any park. The only thing i found talked about buildings. Basically it said what the preemption said-and I think they could win this-the part about a building or any portion of a building-well a portion could be a shelter. The state preemption law, KRS 65.870, says that the LFUCG cannot regulate our right to keep and bear arms or ammunition. The exemption to preemption, KRS 237.115 states that the LFUCG can prohibit the carrying of CONCEALED deadly weapons in buildings that the LFUCG owns or leases, other than residences or gun ranges. I saw nothing that indicated that the LFUCG can prohibit or regulate OPEN CARRY, and there are provisions that severely limit the penalties that the LFUCG can impose when prohibiting concealed carry in the few places they are allowed to prohibit it. I'm not sure that an open sided shelter is a "building", but even assuming that it is, I think that only allows the LFUCG to prohibit concealed carry, not open carry. EXAMPLE - I was going to stop going to my neighborhood association meetings now that I saw the sign that prohibits concealed carry of concealed deadly weapons, but I think I'll continue to go to the meetings while open carrying. A police officer attends our meetings. He's a nice guy, but I get the impression that he might not be an advocate of armed citizens, and he might see the police as somehow separate from citizens in this regard. He may tell me that I can't have a pistol in there. If so, I'll have a highlighted copy of the law, and I'll politely ask him to show me the law that allows the LFUCG to regulate open carry. The guy who runs these meetings is pro-gun, but in the sense of huntin' and fishin' and shootin', and probably not in the liberty sense of the second amendment. I think there will be some open carry education in Lexington this summer, probably on both sides - government and citizens. We need to be careful. If the government is wrong, they can cling to their false beliefs and huff and puff and resort to authoritarian posturing but will eventually be proved wrong and will need to reluctantly admit they're wrong. If we're wrong, there are some serious fines and even if we're right, the cost of proving we're right might be significant. The deck is stacked against us, even when the law is on our side. Hopefully, we can protect our liberty without anyone incurring any hefty fines or expensive legal expenses. The good news is, our state law protects us from felony prosecution if we're wrong, provided we don't carry in the places the state government doesn't allow (schools, courts, detention centers, etc.). I'll check with a lawyer I know who is a gun advocate. |
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ariadiscordia Regular Member
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I, for one, will not sit idly by while my rights are stripped from me any longer. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I do believe that our government disarming the citizens is a terrible mistake. Yes, I have guns for hunting, and it's fun to do that. But I also have guns that I keep on my person for my personal defense and the defense of my family and community. After having read the laws in the links provided in this forum (and research on my own) I believe that the sign is illegal. I can't imagine that the sign there could be construed to say that we cannot have OC guns in the park, because it simply is NOT A BUILDING... it is a large gazebo and nothing more. We're not a rich family by any means; we struggle every day with bills, groceries, etc. But we will be at the park on August 29th, fines be damned. I am an American citizen, and as such, it is my right to enjoy the park and be able to defend myself while there if needed. The park is over-stepping its right here in trying to take away one of my rights. Since I am new here and don't know much about how to help, some one give me an idea, and I'll see what I can do to help! |
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ariadiscordia Regular Member
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BigBubba wrote:ariadiscordia wrote:Excellent! And thank you for the welcome! I can print up some fliers; I saw the suggested picnic table with food, place settings and gun. I think I can do that; I have photoshop. I can hand them out here in Lawrenceburg and in Frankfort. Although I don't have any cornhole sets, I can bring water balloons for the kids, and see if I can find my horseshoe set. I'll figure something out to bring for the kids to have fun. I need a time to post on the fliers. Also, I'm not sure of how to post a link for the fliers once I get them finished, but my husband may be able to help with that. If I just post the picture here, is it possible for you to get the flyer from that? (In case he can't help) Any way, as soon as I get a time (even a tentative one) I'll have the fliers! |
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Liberty4Ever Regular Member
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Hi ariadiscordia! Please hold off on the fliers for a day or two while we work on this issue. I'm not beyond an act of civil disobedience if necessary, but I think the prudent course would be to first contact the people who made the rules and inform them of our understanding of the relevant Kentucky state laws, and ask them to provide the law that would support their assertion that they can deny us the right to open carry in the park. I don't think there is such a law, and I suspect they probably know that and are hoping to publish an unlawful rule pertaining to the use of the park and we're all too lazy or too bamboozled by the awesome power of the authoritarian government to stand up for our rights. There's a very good chance that they can be made to understand that they are wrong and we are right and we are not going to go along with their illegal proclamation, and they'll simply revert to following Kentucky law as they should have done in the first place. They probably do not want this to become a public issue that would only serve to undermine the authority of the LFUCG and show that they were using illegal rules to bully us. We may be able to resolve this without too much grief or expense. I'll keep you guys posted. Thanks for offering to do the fliers for the picnic. I had offered to do them, and I even have the checkered tablecloth for the open carry picnic place setting we had discussed, but I'm so dang busy that if someone else wants to do that, please do so. Please wait until we have a confirmed date and we've chosen a time. You can email me a file (PDF preferred) and I can upload it to the GunsAndGarbage.com website, which I started as a catch-all gun rights site for anything we want to do locally, and not just for the open carry litter pickups. |
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gutshot Regular Member
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Liberty4Ever wrote: Hi ariadiscordia! I think everybody needs to stop for a minute, take a step back, take a deep breath and look at what we are doing. I had very similar problems in Shelby Co. a few years ago. I was amazed at how ignorant of the laws some of these people were. Most could not grasp the difference between concealed carry and open carry. The laws involved were all mixed up in their heads. In particular , the fact that they could regulate concealed weapons in buildings, but not in open spaces and open carry not at all was a mystery to them. IMHO the first we need to do is make sure of where we stand on the law. Who actually has title to the land the parks are on. What government body actually is charged with running the parks. Is there a "parks board"? If so who sits on it, how are they selected and who do they answer to? Is here a "parks commissioner"? Who actually ordered the signs to be placed and who decided what language was to be placed on the sign. Who authored these rules? Has a county ordinance been passed or is this something that came from the mind of a single person? When we know all of these things we can then decide how to proceed. I can guarantee you these signs are not going to be changed until these people see that they have no choice and that they are going to be embarassed in puplic and face paying for legal action. They will try the most rediculous ploys to get around this. Sorry abouttttttttttttthe typing,,,,,,,,Damnedwirless keyboard! |
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8th ID Regular Member
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GUTSHOT-I agree 100 percent. Jacobson Park has NO signs prohibiting firearms, at least any that I have seen. I did a search on LFUCG's site and really couldn't pin down on who to email about this. Liberty4ever encountered the gun ban info when he was trying to reserve a shelter at the park. I will do more research on Fayette County's website-because someone is going to get email from me citing AG's opinions as well as KRS. |
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Liberty4Ever Regular Member
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gutshot wrote:I think everybody needs to stop for a minute, take a step back, take a deep breath and look at what we are doing. I had very similar problems in Shelby Co. a few years ago. Who actually has title to the land the parks are on? Jacobson Park was owned by the water company on a 99 year lease to the Lexington Fayette Urban County Government. The water company is a private business in Lexington. When they were trying to buy off the city to allow them to retain ownership of the water company instead of the city condemning the property, cutting them a check and owning the water company, the water company (ultimately owned by RWE, a German utility monopoly) sold the Jacobson Park land to the city for a dollar, or gave it to them, or something. The Lexington Fayette Urban County Government (LFUCG) owns it now. What government body actually is charged with running the parks? The LFUCG Division of Parks and Recreation Is there a "parks board"? If so who sits on it, how are they selected and who do they answer to? Is here a "parks commissioner"? I think the Division of Parks & Recreation is just a bureaucratic division of the local government. They almost certainly have a director. I couldn't find that info online, but I can call tomorrow and determine who I need to talk to about this. Who actually ordered the signs to be placed and who decided what language was to be placed on the sign? To my knowledge, there are no signs in the park. I've been to Jacobson Park recently and didn't see any signs. As soon as I get a spare minute, I'll take a better look. A building in a smaller city park near me did get a No Concealed Carry sign in the last couple of months or so, and much as I don't like that, it seems to be a legal sign. Hwever, local governments cannot restrict open carry in parks. Period. Who authored these rules? I haven't made any calls to the LFUCG to try to determine that yet. I'm still dotting my i's and crossing my t's to verify the law and seek support at the state level for what may be to come. I don't want to call the LFUCG until I have a better idea where we stand, but I'm close. I expect to call them tomorrow. Has a county ordinance been passed or is this something that came from the mind of a single person? I'm not aware of any local ordinance and I usually hear about stuff like that. If there is a local ordinance, I'm almost positive that it's illegal and the state attorney general will strike it down, as they struck down Louisville's prohibition on concealed carry for the same reason. Local bureaucrats pass all sorts of laws with no care as to their legality. When they want to do something they pass a law. Or, if a non-elected bureaucrat wants to do something, they simply make up a rule. I think that's likely to be what happened in this case. Again, there is no reason why they should be careful not to pass illegal laws or make illegal rules. The very worst that will happen is that we will fight and devote a lot of our time to have the bad law or rule nullified. Meanwhile, they had their way for some time and denied us our rights. They really should be in a position to lose somethng of value for denying us our rights. Otherwise, this pattern of willful abuse of our rights will continue. I hope that answers some of the questions you guys might have. I called the state's foremost authority on gun rights this afternoon. He started the movement to secure our concelaed carry laws and has been a staunch defender of gun rights. He is frequently a guest on radio talk shows when the topic is Kentucky gun laws. His first words were, "They can't do that." He referred to the same laws I did earlier in this thread and confirmed that my interpretation was correct and he was not aware of any other laws I was missing that would allow the LFUCG to ban guns in the parks. He told me of similar battles that were won across the state. He then gave me the cell phone number of a state legislator who does know our gun rights. I called and left a voice message but haven't heard back yet. I'm trying to resolve this ASAP, but without proceeding recklessly. I am not inclined to enter a long and expensive legal battle by getting some bureaucrat's haunches up when we could achieve our goals sooner by proceeding in a less antagonistic manner based on a solid understanding of the law. I have a friend who is just out of law school. I'm not sure if he's passed the bar exam or not, but he loves liberty and would probably help by researching the matter and helping me understand the legalese. He wouldn't be able to provide any legal services if he hasn't passed the bar exam. The saga continues. |
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Liberty4Ever Regular Member
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Hey guys, I'm not trying to be the grand poobah on this issue or anything, but I think we should have one person dealing with the city, at least for now. If they get a bunch of righteously angry calls and emails and get mad about it, I think it'll hurt our cause. Ultimately, we'll prevail because the law is on our side and the LFUCG doesn't have a leg to stand on, legally speaking, but they get paid to fight. Not only are we not paid to fight them in court, but legal fees aren't cheap. We should strive to correct this problem without a protracted legal battle if possible. I haven't contacted the LFUCG yet, but I have researched this issue quite a bit and it seemed natural that I contact them because I was the one trying to jump through their stupid hoops to rent a shelter at Jacobson Park when I encountered their illegal rule prohibiting firearms in the park. If someone else is better suited to deal with the LFUCG, I'll gladly step aside and bow out, but I do not want to be one of four calls they receive tomorrow, and be in the position of trying to defend statements I've never heard. I can only be responsible for what I say. BTW - I plan on recording the conversations. Yes, it's legal in Kentucky. If somoeone else is going to take over this issue, please let me know so I can resign from that job. There's plenty of other work to do if you're mad about this and want to do something. One thing I haven't had time to do yet is research the other cases in Kentucky where local governments have overstepped their legal authority and the Kentucky Attorney General smacked them down and overturned their laws or rules that violated KRS 65.870, our preemption law. I printed the attorney general's legal opinion that overturned Louisville's ban of concealed carry and the wording is quite obvious. It's apparent that Lexington cannot enforce a rule that prohibits open carry in their parks, no matter how much they may want to do that. If you have some links to the other cases where our state preemption law trumped local laws, I'd like to see them. I haven't even had a chance to review the recent issue where the Scott County Park was forced to take down their gun buster signs, but it's on my To Do list. We're gonna win this one. We might even win it in time to reserve Jacobson Shelter #6 on August 29th. If not, I'd like to have a celebration picnic at the Scott County park! We could have the Jacobson Open Carry Picnic in September. If we handle this properly, it shouldn't take long to resolve this issue in our favor. The big button to push would be letting them know that we will win, and the more they make this a public issue, the worse they will look for infringing on our unalienable rights and flaunting the obvious Kentucky preemption law. The threat needs to be made in a subtle manner that won't make someone dig in his heels, but no bureaucrat wants to be publicly shown to be acting contrary to well established law. At best, they'd look inept. At worst, they look like petty dictators with no respect for the rule of law. If it comes to a legal battle despite our best intentions, open carry rights will be getting some public attention in Lexington, so we'll at least get some public education bang for our legal bucks! |
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8th ID Regular Member
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Liberty4ever-My vote is to let one person handle it also. So go for it. if I can be of assistance (research, etc) let me know. I agree that this should be handled in a respectful, calm manner. I'm not sure if this applies, but it concerns deprivation of rights http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/42/1983.html Thanks for doing the work... |
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gutshot Regular Member
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Liberty4Ever wrote: gutshot wrote:I think everybody needs to stop for a minute, take a step back, take a deep breath and look at what we are doing. I had very similar problems in Shelby Co. a few years ago. I don’t think it matters who or how many people contact LFUCG. They will do one of two things. They will say they didn’t know the signs were there or didn’t know about the law and promise to change them or they will dig in their heels and tell us that they are in charge and that they can do as they please. If the latter, which I expect, we will have to have a plan on how to make them see the light. There is little we can actually do legally without expending large sums of money. We can embarrass them by ignoring their illegal signs by carrying in the park and to see if they will attempt to enforce their illegal rule. If we do that we had better be absolutely certain where we stand legally. Somebody may go to jail. Not a small thing. We will need witnesses and video. One of the TV station might be interested in attending. I’d love a picture of a few of us standing around the sign while OCing. Does anyone know if the Division of Parks & Recreation holds regular meeting, and when the last one was held and when the next one is scheduled. |
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Liberty4Ever Regular Member
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gutshot wrote:They will say they didn’t know the signs were there Last edited on Wed Jul 22nd, 2009 02:38 am by Liberty4Ever |
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gutshot Regular Member
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8th ID wrote: LIBERTY4EVER-Well, looks like we may have a problem. I looked up Lexington's rules on the no guns in any park. The only thing i found talked about buildings. Basically it said what the preemption said-and I think they could win this-the part about a building or any portion of a building-well a portion could be a shelter. Exactly what did it say. Can you post a linkto it? Here's the guy we need to contact. http://www.lexingtonky.gov/index.aspx?page=298 |
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gutshot Regular Member
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gutshot wrote: 8th ID wrote:LIBERTY4EVER-Well, looks like we may have a problem. I looked up Lexington's rules on the no guns in any park. The only thing i found talked about buildings. Basically it said what the preemption said-and I think they could win this-the part about a building or any portion of a building-well a portion could be a shelter. It looks like all Fayette County buildings are posted for cc by ordinance. Sec. 14-19.4. I'd not be interested in arguing if a park shelter was a "building". Of course this only applies to cc, does not apply to oc. http://www.lexingtonky.gov/index.aspx?page=319 The Division of Corporate Counsel prepares all ordinances, resolutions, contracts, deeds, and other legal documents for the Urban County Government and its related agencies. This division provides legal advice and assistance to the Mayor, the Chief Administrative Officer, all departments and divisions within the Government and the Urban County Council. In addition, legal advice and representation is provided to the many governmental boards and commissions. |
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gutshot Regular Member
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gutshot wrote: gutshot wrote:8th ID wrote:LIBERTY4EVER-Well, looks like we may have a problem. I looked up Lexington's rules on the no guns in any park. The only thing i found talked about buildings. Basically it said what the preemption said-and I think they could win this-the part about a building or any portion of a building-well a portion could be a shelter. Here's another potentially helpful link: Citzen's Advocate Office Created in the Urban County Government Charter to provide citizens an ombudsman or independent agent with the government, the Citizens' Advocate:
Last edited on Wed Jul 22nd, 2009 04:04 am by gutshot |
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Fred Regular Member
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Well haven't been to this thread in a little bit alot sure has gone on...... My question is has anyone talked to those responsible for issuing the permits for this picnic area? No signs posted at the park but in the user agreement its says no weapons. Could be one of two things. A scare tactic or an oversight in deleting the rule. Something to look at is if they were serious about its enforcement, signs would be posted. This may not be a problem at all. Once there is a definitive answer that this rule is strictly enforced and monitored then other steps should be taken. Till then in my opinion we should wait before making further assumptions |
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gutshot Regular Member
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Liberty4Ever wrote: I just logged in to make the reservation for August 29th and well into the reservation process, they provide a lengthy page of rules. There were two rules in the January 3rd 2008 rules that seemed problematic. Can you copy and post that list of rules so I could see exactly what they are and make referance to that document. It could be an oversight. I can't find a prohibition anywhere else in the county ordinances. It needs to be fixed, but this one could be relatvely innocent. I don't know what the excuse could be for its' being there in the first place, but it could be that all of those things were supposed to be deleted and this one slipped by. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt........for now. |
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gutshot Regular Member
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Liberty4Ever wrote: gutshot wrote:They will say they didn’t know the signs were there What do you mean "Don't even think about carrying in there!" You can't cc, but no reason you can't OC. |
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Liberty4Ever Regular Member
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I agree that the fact that there are apparently no signs posted may mean that the no firearms rule is an oversight, or maybe someone at the Division of Parks & Recreation added it on a whim without realizing they were violating Kentucky law. That's why I tried to discourage everyone from calling and getting things worked up before we knew why the rule exists. Of course it may also be a sneaky way to try to ban guns when they know they can't post gun buster signs in the parks. If that's the case, we'll fight them to whatever extent is necessary to win. Daggone Gutshot, you've been busy! Good stuff! Does anyone have any problem with me prioritizing those resources early tomorrow morning and start dialing to get some answers? gutshot wrote: Can you copy and post that list of rules so I could see exactly what they are and make reference to that document. Here you go! I highlighted the parts I thought would be the most interesting.
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Liberty4Ever Regular Member
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I've been busy today. The short version is, I spoke to the Director of the LFUCG Division of Parks and Recreation, Jerry Hancock. He made many anti-2A comments that may represent the attitudes of the majority of Lexington and probably represents the vast majority of the LFUCG officials, but I informed him of the relevant Kentucky laws and explained them to him, I informed him that there is a Kentucky Attorney General opinion on record that backs up KRS 65.870, and every time local governments have exceeded their authority in this matter they've been required to reverse their policies and abide by state law. Mr. Hancock told me, "A picnic shelter is not a building." In the context of the conversation, he understood that meant that the LFUCG could not prohibit concealed carry under the roofs of open sided park shelters, but I verified that was his understanding, just to make sure we were communicating. I sent an email to the president of the Kentucky Coalition for Concealed Carry and suggested that he may want to get that from Mr. Hancock in writing, and provided his telephone number. Mr. Hancock told me in several different ways that he was not happy with the state preemption law once I explained it to him, but he admitted that he didn't have the power to override the state law. He mentioned an incident at the Lexington Skate Park involving a firearm but didn't elaborate. He said, "It (an armed citizen) just frightens me, frankly." and "For the life of me, I cannot in this day and age, see any good coming from people walking around with a gun on their hip." We had a gentlemanly discussion, with him taking the anti-2A position and me taking the pro-2A position. Nobody's opinion changed, of course, but it was a good civil exchange of information. Mr. Hancock said, "I'm sure you don't walk around with a revolver on your hip." I replied, "I have a concealed carry license and I carry a concealed firearm 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Pretty much, the only time I'm not armed is when I attend LFUCG city council meetings, and when I enter the Post Office because that's prohibited by federal law. I have openly carried a firearm in Lexington on numerous occasions and I know many people who regularly do so, as is their unalienable right." Mr. Hancock replied, "Wow." I think this is an example of the growing "out of sight, out of mind" anti-gun mentality that open carry can help to reverse through public education. From my perspective, his position was based on how he felt and what he was afraid might happen, and my position was based on history, law, and a strong belief in individual liberty. Near the end of our discussion, I did say to him that I felt these differences of opinion often resolve to underlying beliefs about the power of government versus the power of individuals, with statists believing that the state should keep people from having guns for their own good, and those who value individual liberty believing that criminals will always have weapons and any effort by the state to restrict weapons only disarms law abiding citizens, which empowers criminals and results in more crime, as crime statistics almost invariably demonstrate. Mr. Hancock said that he would have the firearms ban removed from the online park rules, probably today. I checked, and rule 9 now has no mention of firearms. So, let's have a picnic! |
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langzaiguy Regular Member
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Excellent! So glad you made the effort and called. It sounds like it was a very interesting conversation! Even though he was so focused on emotions, I'm glad he was able to see the logic and letter of the law. Nicely done! |
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gutshot Regular Member
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Liberty4Ever wrote: I've been busy today. The short version is, I spoke to the Director of the LFUCG Division of Parks and Recreation, Jerry Hancock. He made many anti-2A comments that may represent the attitudes of the majority of Lexington and probably represents the vast majority of the LFUCG officials, but I informed him of the relevant Kentucky laws and explained them to him, I informed him that there is a Kentucky Attorney General opinion on record that backs up KRS 65.870, and every time local governments have exceeded their authority in this matter they've been required to reverse their policies and abide by state law. Great job, Liberty. Mark one up for the good guys. |
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Fred Regular Member
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Look at what a simple, calm and goal oriented phone call can do!! Outstanding job there liberty. |
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8th ID Regular Member
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Holy Crap-Liberty, You have been busy. Thanks!! And let's have a picnic Great news. Sounds like a good civil debate. |
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8th ID Regular Member
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So...everyone ready ready for a picnic? |
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chris in va Regular Member
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Picnic sounds great. More worth it for me to haul from Shepherdsville than for a simple dinner. Might even take the Goldwing. |
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Liberty4Ever Regular Member
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I hope everyone is ready for Lexington's first Open Carry Picnic! I reserved Shelter #6 at Jacobson park from 8:00 AM to 8:00 PM on August 29th, 2009. I'll make a page on Guns And Garbage as soon as we pick a time and decide what we're doing for food. My votes would go for a time of noon to 2:00 PM for a lunch picnic, or maybe 6-8 PM for a dinner picnic, and everyone just bring what they want to eat. There is always way too much food ar these picnics. I'll probably bring some potato salad and a watermelon or two. Or we could sign up for foods to bring on this thread. You can already start telling your friends about the date, but we should nail down a time soon so we have a month to promote it. Let's have a safe and fun Open Carry Picnic to demonstrate to central Kentucky that guns are not their enemies, nor are gun owners. This is gonna be great! PS - I was just talking to a neighbor about the young guys who were casing houses on our street with the old "I'm in college and we're having a magazine selling contest' scam. If nobody answered the door they'd break in and steal your stuff! My other neighbor didn't like the way they were insistently banging on his door, so he answered with a handgun. After I answered and listened to their punk rhetoric for a few seconds before interrupting to tell them that college boys should be able to read as I pointed to my No Soliciting sign and closed the door in their faces, I wished I too had answered the door armed (other than my CCW). They absolutely did not break into the house of the guy with a gun. |
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Old dog in the fight Regular Member
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Quoting Liberty 4ever - "I hope everyone is ready for Lexington's first Open Carry Picnic! I reserved Shelter #6 at Jacobson park from 8:00 AM to 8:00 PM on August 29th, 2009. I'll make a page on Guns And Garbage as soon as we pick a time and decide what we're doing for food. My votes would go for a time of noon to 2:00 PM for a lunch picnic, or maybe 6-8 PM for a dinner picnic, and everyone just bring what they want to eat. There is always way too much food ar these picnics. I'll probably bring some potato salad and a watermelon or two. Or we could sign up for foods to bring on this thread." I represent the Kentucky Coalition to Carry Concealed and I picked your message out of my email's spam filters but somehow it was lost and didn't make it on through to me, so I didn't reply directly to that and had to Google to find this thread and forum. I read some of what was posted on here about the situation in Lexington, and it appears that the LFUCG people have made some errors about where they can and can post against lawful concealed carry. The bottom line is that the ONLY place that they can ban CCDW is in the buildings that they control, and NOT in the open areas or spaces of the parks. Their ban on firearms in their nature parks like McConnell springs and Raven Run is also illegal, so we'll be following up on that. As for open carry, it's legal in the parks and in the buildings - period. The schools are a prohibited area, unfortunately, but KC3 is working on a petition drive and a plan to pass legislation to permit CCDW permit holders to carry on school property. If we get enough people to support us on this, and get it passed in 2010, then it won't be perfect, but it will be a start. The federal legislation will be null and void since there is an exemption for CCDW permit holders in the federal law. While open carry is not a part of our primary mission, I used to carry openly and still do on some occasions as do other members of our board of directors. ANYTHING that supports our right to be armed for personal defense is something that we support, so we'll make sure that our members are informed about this open carry event as soon as the details are hammered out. It'll be posted on our blog at http://kc3blog.blogspot.com [http://kc3blog.blogspot.com] and if you'll continue to reach me at dvcnra45@dcr.net we can work with you if you want us to. Good luck and keep up the fight - Charles Riggs, KC3 board of directors, co-founder KC3 |
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chris in va Regular Member
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Finally, we have a date! Just let us know what to bring. Too bad it's at a public park...we could do some skeet shooting! EDIT: I see the park is on a lake. I'll have to bring my fishing pole. Last edited on Mon Jul 27th, 2009 05:23 am by chris in va |
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BigBubba Regular Member
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chris in va wrote: I see the park is on a lake. I'll have to bring my fishing pole. i was plannin on doing a little of the same myself ... the shelter is near one of Jacobson's better bluegill hotspots from my experience, not a catfish or bass fisherman but i'v seen decent sized of each pulled from the tree littered area nearest the shelter |
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BigBubba Regular Member
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chris in va wrote: Too bad it's at a public park...we could do some skeet shooting! I stumbled on this in another post and I've gotta be reading this wrong or misinterpreting .. does this actually state that we could shoot our guns anywhere we want? KRS 237.104(1) No person, unit of government, or governmental organization shall, during a period of disaster or emergency as specified in KRS Chapter 39A or at any other time, have the right to revoke, suspend, limit the use of, or otherwise impair the validity of the right of any person to purchase, transfer, loan, own, possess, carry, or use a firearm, firearm part, ammunition, ammunition component, or any deadly weapon or dangerous instrument Last edited on Wed Jul 29th, 2009 11:00 am by BigBubba |
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Liberty4Ever Regular Member
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Their idea of "use of a firearm" is carrying it, and maybe drawing it in defense if needed. There is an urban-county ordinance that prohibits the discharge of weapons in Fayette County.Sec. 14-19. Firearms, discharging within the urban county; penalty. (a) No person, except peace officers, military personnel and similar officers in the execution of their official duties, shall discharge any firearm within the urban county in the following places or circumstances, unless in lawful defense of person or property: (1) Within the urban service area boundary; (2) In close proximity to any building which, in addition to its ordinary meanings, includes any vehicle or aircraft; except that this prohibition shall not apply to the safe discharge of firearms with the consent of the owner of any such building; close proximity is presumed if such discharge would be considered as done "recklessly or wantonly," as defined in KRS 501.020; (3) On any real property without the consent of the owner thereof; (4) Within any urban county park, unless said park is posted otherwise by the director of parks and recreation. Such posting may be made only in areas which have been inspected for safety purposes by the department of public safety and for which a written permit has been obtained from the commissioner of public safety. (b) In the places and circumstances enumerated in paragraphs (1) and (2) of subsection (a), the discharge of firearms while engaged in target shooting, skeet shooting and other sport or demonstration shooting, shall be permissible on premises which have been inspected for safety purposes by the department of public safety and for which a written permit has been obtained from the commissioner of public safety: (1) Such permit shall be granted on request to any private sporting club which has been in existence and operation at least ninety (90) days prior to the adoption of this section and which has complied with all regulations in effect prior to the date of this section. (2) Such permit shall be granted on proper application unless said commissioner, for reasons stated in writing, finds that the activity to be permitted would constitute a safety hazard. (3) There shall be no charge for such permit. (4) Subsequent to the issuance of a permit by the commissioner, if, for reasons stated in writing, the commissioner determines that any activity of the permit holder constitutes a safety hazard, said permit may be suspended by the commissioner. Any denial of application for a permit or any suspension of a permit shall be reviewed by the urban county council within seven (7) days of said denial or suspension. (5) The word "firearms" as used in this subsection shall include rifles, shotguns and handguns, but not fully automatic weapons of any type. (c) Any person who violates this section shall be fined not less than one hundred dollars ($100.00) nor more than five hundred dollars ($500.00) for each offense. (Ord. No. 46-76, § 1, 3-18-76; Ord. No. 323-88, § 1, 12-15-88) Easier to read formatting: http://www.municode.com/resources/gateway.asp?pid=11163&sid=17 (Chapter 14, Section 19.4) Note that the ordinance was originally written to appear to be quite reasonable, allowing people to shoot on their own rural property and allowing shooting ranges if they'll just behave safely, but as usual, that was the camel's nose under the flap of the tent, and now the camel is completely within the tent. Even on private rural property, they will say that shooting endangers others, and don't even think of getting a business permit for an indoor shooting range. I don't think they liked the Bluegrass Range that was out Leestown Road, and now that it burned down, I doubt they'll ever issue another business license for another range. Despite the reasonable tone of the ordinance, from an enforcement perspective, shooting in Fayette County is essentially illegal in every instance other than legitimate self defense, and even there, I suspect their version of "legitimate" is more restrictive than mine. I went shooting yesterday, on a piece of private property just across the Fayette County line. I've heard that the LFUCG police would stop and tell people they can't shoot there and the shooters would tell them to check their map, because the property is not in Fayette County, and the police reluctantly admit that's true and leave them alone. There won't be any plinking at cans at Jacobson Park! Fishing is apparently still OK... for now. |
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Liberty4Ever Regular Member
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So, can I make some fliers and make a web page for a picnic from noon to 2:00 PM on Saturday? Did someone else want to make the fliers? The picnic is a month from today. Let's settle on a time and start promoting it and talking it up. |
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8th ID Regular Member
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LIBERTY-Go ahead and make up the fliers. If you can paste them here so I can make some copies to put up. Thanks! Also, I have started a thread about this picnic on the Bluegrass Glockers section of Glock Talk. And I'm going to put it on the CZ forum. |
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Statesman Regular Member
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Liberty4Ever wrote: I went shooting yesterday, on a piece of private property just across the Fayette County line. I've heard that the LFUCG police would stop and tell people they can't shoot there and the shooters would tell them to check their map, because the property is not in Fayette County, and the police reluctantly admit that's true and leave them alone. Gosh!! Being so close to Fayette Co, did anyone get hurt or die as a result of safe shooting? At least, that's what the fearmongers would have us believe. This is why I won't buy property within Fayette Co. I want to be able to step off my back porch, and go plinking without having to get in my car and drive to another city.Opportunity is knocking. Looks like a good place for someone to open a private/public shooting range? Can I have a membership? |
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Liberty4Ever Regular Member
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8th ID wrote: LIBERTY-Go ahead and make up the fliers. If you can paste them here so I can make some copies to put up. Thanks!I've been super extra busy lately, but it won't take very long at all to make the flier. Is Lexington's first Open Carry Picnic from noon to 2:00 PM on August 29th? We should get the time nailed down ASAP. I have a couple of places I want to promote it, too. I can print fliers and mail them to anyone who would like to distribute them. I'll post the PDF on the GunsAndGarbage.com website if you'd like to download it and print your own. I need to buy a holster for my wife's .38 snub nose. She doesn't open carry, but is willing to make an exception for the picnic. She will go a long way toward dispelling any impressions that guns are the domain of redneck guys. This is gonna be great. I hope it educates a lot of people and helps to preserve our right to keep and bear arms. Good job on the GlockTalk post and CZ forum. I'll post on the Kel-Tec owner's group, Campaign For Liberty and the 9/12 We Surround Them groups. All are the sort of folks who would show up to an OC Picnic. I'll be sure to urge them to talk it up among friends and family members and coworkers, and invite them to show up whether they open carry or not. |
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8th ID Regular Member
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HEY LIBERTY! My vote is for noon-2p.m. When you get the document done please post it here. Thanks for all the work you've done on this. Are we going to bring food for ourselves or do a sign up for what to bring? |
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8th ID Regular Member
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THREE WEEKS TO GO! I posted on Glock Talk (Bluegrass Glockers) and have had no responses, but 53 views. Hopefully some have used the link back to this thread. LIBERY-Any help I can give on this picnic, let me know. I'll help you all I can. Also, when is the next litter pick-up? |
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Liberty4Ever Regular Member
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I've had this thread open in a browser window for several days. I was waiting until I had the website updated and the picnic flier PDF ready. It won't take but an hour or two to do that, but things have been busy as usual. Maybe I'll stay up late tonight and get 'er done. I am already promoting the OC Picnic, mostly among like minded friends and family so far, but as soon as I nail the remaining minor details, I'll promote it to the local Campaign For Liberty and We Surround Them groups, and among some local friends I have on the Kel-Tec Owners Group (MUCH smaller than GlockTalk). I'll probably post about it at The High Road and maybe AR15.com, too, and I'll visit the local gun shops again and hopefully have a better participation than we had with the Guns And Garbage promotion. There isn't a date yet for the next Guns And Garbage. I'd like to have it maybe in late September or early October, when the weather is a bit cooler. I think the armed litter pickup signs helped get the word out the last time, and I'll try to get a couple of more. It pays to advertise! I also need to get several nice signs for the OC picnic, ostensibly to help people find their way to the correct shelter, but also to help the public understand what's happening. I think I'll put a big friendly "PUBLIC WELCOME!" notice on the signs so people casually visiting Jabobson Park might drop by out of curiosity. Gun owners are a friendly bunch... right?  |
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kguard103 Regular Member
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Just read your post on GlockTalk and I am interested in attending. I am trying to catch up with the event on the 29th. We were wondering where we can find what food and stuff we need to bring? I may have missed it -- if so sorry! Last edited on Mon Aug 10th, 2009 02:47 pm by kguard103 |
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8th ID Regular Member
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I believe it's just bring what you want to eat. And we would be glad to have you |
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Liberty4Ever Regular Member
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Sorry it took me an extra week to get the promo info ready for Lexington's first Open Carry Picnic. Here it is! Yep! We're going to be open carrying in Jacobson Park! Please join us for Lexington Kentucky's first OPEN CARRY PICNIC! It's about time someone did this! We'll be having a lot of fun, while we also promote our inalienable right to keep and bear arms. Everything about this event is casual. Just bring some of your favorite food, feel free to share food with others if you like, and meet some of the nicest and friendliest folks in the Bluegrass. An armed society is a polite society. Hopefully, many people will be curious enough to stop by and check us out. This event is open to the public and anyone wanting to support our rights and learn more about firearms for self defense is welcome to attend. The usual firearms rules apply, of course. Anyone already carrying a firearm should already be aware of all of the proper safety precautions. It's not that complicated. Carry the handgun openly at all times. Concealed carry without a CDW license is a crime, so make certain that your handgun remains unconcealed and in plain sight at all times. Carry your handgun in a quality holster that has adequate retention features to make certain the weapon stays holstered at all times, and the holster should completely cover the trigger and prevent accidental activation. Make absolutely certain that your firearm cannot discharge negligently. If you do not regularly open carry and have even the slightest doubt, you are encouraged to carry a handgun without a round in the chamber to maximize safety. Responsibly owning and carrying a handgun is safe, and we want to demonstrate that to the public. There is no requirement to have a handgun to attend this picnic. Everyone is very welcome to attend. If you're curious and know nothing about firearms, please come out and visit, and learn about your unalienable right to self defense. There is always too much food at these picnics, so you don't even need to bring any food. We'll have food to share. Please, join us! Jacobson Park is on the southeast side of Lexington, about two miles outside Man O War Boulevard on Richmond Road, at the point where Old Richmond Road branches off Richmond Road. If you're coming from outside of town, take the Athens exit #104 off I-75 and head toward town on Athens Boonesboro Road for about three miles. View Larger Map If you have any questions, please call 859-913-0747 If you'd like to print flyers to help us promote this event: http://gunsandgarbage.com/OpenCarryPicnic.pdf If you'd like to email a link with this info: http://www.GunsAndGarbage.com |
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Liberty4Ever Regular Member
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Please promote the heck out of this event! Call your friends and family, tell your coworkers, and ask everyone to invite anyone they know. Let's get a large crowd of people open carrying in Jacobson Park, a little less than two weeks from now. I'll heavily promote this in the liberty community all across the state, and I expect a large crowd of liberty folks will attend. Many have been looking forward to it and asking me about it. I checked out the park and the shelter last week. I confirmed that there are no gun buster signs in sight. There are six large picnic tables that could seat about 72 people, although special permission is needed for more than 50 people. There is potable water available - drinking fountain and spigot. Enter Jacobson Park from Richmond Road, make an immediate right, go down the hill, bear left, cross over a large culvert, and bear right. There is a LOT of parking next to shelter #6 so do not park on the grass. There are port-o-potties a short walk from the shelter, and plenty of room if someone wants to throw a Frisbee or something. I'll have lots of signs directing people to the Open Carry Picnic, which will also serve to invite the curious park visitors to drop in and say hi. I'll have a lot of handouts explaining the relevant laws, in case someone needs to be educated. Let's have a fun and safe Open Carry Picnic! I'm bringing potato salad and a couple of watermelons... and my 10mm Glock 20. |
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8th ID Regular Member
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This sounds awesome! I will be bringing KFC and a dessert. My sidearm really depends on my attire... My newest addition is a CZ 75B Omega!! Love it! Hope to see plenty of liberty loving folks!!! |
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Statesman Regular Member
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Liberty, Can we officially designate OC outings in KY as "Guns & Buns", as they are doing in Wisconsin? I think it would be great for promotion, as people will more than likely google that term, for what should be obvious reasons. Maybe update your graphic to say something like "Lexington's first Guns & Buns Open Carry Picnic". |
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Liberty4Ever Regular Member
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Well, I wish you'd a told me that before I made the flier! Feel free to promote the Lexington OC Picnic any way you like. I think Guns & Buns is kinda clever, although I've seen some Guns & Chicks pictures that would also qualify. I'll update the graphic if I get the chance, but it's already, pretty much, everywhere. Leave an engineer to do the marketing and you'll get some lame descriptive title like "Lexington Open Carry Picnic". I think Guns And Buns is a good name for the picnic, partly because it ties in with the less popular Guns And Garbage litter pick-up events. I'll see what I can do with a remade graphic. It's not like people are going to get confused about WHICH open carry picnic they're attending in Lexington. |
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gutshot Regular Member
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Liberty4Ever wrote: Well, I wish you'd a told me that before I made the flier! Great Idea! Guns and buns. Taken a different way, it could really be fun. |
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Statesman Regular Member
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Let me know when the updated version of the flyer is available, and I'll send it out to the local radio stations in Lexington. The conservative/Libertarian leaning stations are sure to mention it as the time nears. |
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Statesman Regular Member
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gutshot wrote: Liberty4Ever wrote:Well, I wish you'd a told me that before I made the flier! Buns designate hamburger and hotdog buns, something that is common in picnics. There's nothing sexy about the event, other than my Kimber. |
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Liberty4Ever Regular Member
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Statesman wrote: Let me know when the updated version of the flyer is available, and I'll send it out to the local radio stations in Lexington. The conservative/Libertarian leaning stations are sure to mention it as the time nears.I've already sent the flier to Leland Conway at WLAP. It seems like his kind of event. He was good enough to mention Guns And Garbage, so he might mention the Open Carry Picnic too. I've also already notified the Lexington Herald Leader. I had a meeting with the editor last Friday and alluded to it then, so my email was just a follow-up. On my To Do list (that didn't get done today) is notifying the TV stations, in the event that they might want to cover the good side of gun ownership. That'd be a nice change of pace for them. |
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BigBubba Regular Member
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Liberty4Ever wrote: snip ... On my To Do list (that didn't get done today) is notifying the TV stations, in the event that they might want to cover the good side of gun ownership. That'd be a nice change of pace for them. great idea but i dont know if they'll go for it, dont think i'v ever seen a possitive take on lexington's local tv stations about a pro gun event |
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BigBubba Regular Member
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has anyone already posted this on the KYGunOwners.com site? |
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Liberty4Ever Regular Member
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BigBubba wrote: has anyone already posted this on the KYGunOwners.com site? Someone posted it on KYGunOwners.com now! Thanks for the tip. That looks like a nice site... as if I need another gun board! |
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Statesman Regular Member
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BigBubba wrote: Liberty4Ever wrote:snip ... On my To Do list (that didn't get done today) is notifying the TV stations, in the event that they might want to cover the good side of gun ownership. That'd be a nice change of pace for them. Which reminds me. Guys (and Gals?), please make sure to direct any media inquiries to Liberty4Ever at the event, if you are not sure about how you will respond to hard questions. For example, I can usually write out my responses well, however I would not do near as good in person. I would personally refer the media to Liberty, as he is our PR guy. |
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Liberty4Ever Regular Member
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I was hoping to keep a low profile, although the late night decision to put my phone number on the fliers wasn't very smart. I just know I'm gonna get audited, or the LFUCG code enforcement people are going to cite me for not cutting my grass, or something. I just called the LFUCG Division of Parks & Recreation and asked about the 50 person shelter capacity, and Lauren said it wouldn't be a problem if we had some folding lawn chairs for any overflow crowd. From my big butt perspective, it looked like we could seat 72 people at the six large tables, and many people will be standing up and milling around talking, so in the off chance that we do get a LOT of people, we should be good to go. I need to print the fliers and make the rounds to the local gun shops this weekend to ask if they'd mind posting a flier for a week. That was a surprisingly ineffective method to promote the OC litter pickups, but I'll give it a shot with the OC picnic. I'll try to change the flier to "Guns And Buns" before printing it. |
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8th ID Regular Member
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I would like to bring my camera for some pics. Some to post on some friendly 2A sites and gun forums. Anyone opposed to having their picture taken? I just want to show that there are many responsible gun owners out there... |
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gutshot Regular Member
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. What do you mean, I'm very sexy. |
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Statesman Regular Member
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gutshot wrote: . Behold. My Kimber is still sexier than us both. |
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Liberty4Ever Regular Member
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Statesman wrote: Let me know when the updated version of the flyer is available, and I'll send it out to the local radio stations in Lexington. The conservative/Libertarian leaning stations are sure to mention it as the time nears.I changed the flier to now say Guns And Buns. http://www.gunsandgarbage.com/OpenCarryPicnic-Flier-750.jpg I was doing the promotion, but the more the merrier. If you want to let the media know, go right ahead. If they hear it from more than one source, they may decide it's worth covering. |
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Old dog in the fight Regular Member
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Liberty4Ever wrote:Statesman wrote:Let me know when the updated version of the flyer is available, and I'll send it out to the local radio stations in Lexington. The conservative/Libertarian leaning stations are sure to mention it as the time nears.I changed the flier to now say Guns And Buns. You want to call and/or email ALL of the radio and TV stations, AND tell them that you've contacted all of the others so that they feel like they have to be there so that they're not beaten out of the coverage by the competition. Be sure to contact the local Associated Press person also, in addition to the Lexington Herald-Leader, and call WHAS in Louisville. Channel 32 in Louisville has an interest in firearms issues, get their gun guy there and tell him. When you do something like this, tell EVERYONE! All publicity is good publicity. You can even call KET about it. I've called Leland about it and I'll be calling him again today to remind him. It's on our blog at http://kc3blog.blogspot.com We'll be sending out emails about it, and I plan to be there, too! - Charles Riggs, public affairs liaison, Kentucky Coalition to Carry Concealed (KC3) Last edited on Mon Aug 24th, 2009 05:03 pm by Old dog in the fight |
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kentuckyshiner85 Regular Member
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sorry I have been out for awhile. So I see we have a date for the picnic. I will be coming with my family. I hope that it is okay if I bring some friends. |
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Abock33 Regular Member 
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I haven't been on in a while. Saw this and I'll try to convince the wife that we should spend sat in Lex. Hopefully I'll see you on the 29th. |
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8th ID Regular Member
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We would love to see you there. |
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This is turning out to be even tougher than I expected, but the sweetness of the victory is directly proportional to the difficulty of achieving it.