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OpenCarry.org - Discussion Forum > Stories From The States > Louisiana > Open Carry a tactical disadvantage
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| OpenCarry.org - Discussion Forum > Stories From The States > Louisiana > Open Carry a tactical disadvantage
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CaptainDan Regular Member 
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OK Guys, every now and then on allmost every thread in this forum someone states that OC puts you at a disadvantage. I disagree and here's why. first off, most of the people who attack others are cowards and prey on the weak. After all when was the last time some inner city type raped a 230 lb. man? Never that I know of. Now when was the last time a 132lb. woman was raped? Yesterday? 5 minutes ago? Probably. My point is most of those who prey on others have no metal and will likely never enter into any confrontation they know they might lose.The weak and old/young are much easier targets (mugging the elderly, raping young women, etc.) Because the attacker has probably established if in his mind only,that resistance would be slim to none. Now, would that same attacker smash an old man in the mouth for $32.00 if he spotted a shiny 1911 on his hip? Remember the attacker is not a man of honor but an opportunist looking for an easy score on a defensive victim. No, more than likely not. Now if the same elderly gentleman was carrying concealed, no visible means of defense? Yea, and once smashed by a 19 to 26 year old street hardened thug would he have the presence of mind to dig out his sidearm or cover his head and hit the dirt? Secondly , some attacks are of the "Bum rush" type where 2 or more attackers are just out to attack some one, any one , for a feeling of superiority, an adrenalin rush with no couincidence(I know I miss spelled that, sorry). This type of attack could hit any one unlucky enough to be in the parking lot, bus stop, flea market whayever, I have seen thease types of attacks on video at the wierdest places, front counter of McDonalds etc. This is why I open carry. Still , every time on video you can watch the attackers "sizing up" their victims. Does any one think this cowardly type of crap would swing at a man with his family having a Big Mac after seeing an XDM on his hip? I think not.With out it A middle class family man such as myself probably holds somewhere in the 100 point spread. Allthough extremely dangerous in packs thease types are still cowards at heart. Case in point , a few weeks back while I was offshore my wife and 16 year old son were attacked at the same filling station 1 block from our house I mentioned earlier. Arter being struck in the face and arm by 2 grown men, my wife got away from the men when they attacked my son while trying to defend his mother and retrieved her Smith&Wesson .38 spcl. Once the pistol came out ALL ATTACKS STOPPED. Luckily the girl behind the bullet proof glass had all ready called 911. The cruisers showed up and my wife replaced her pistol to the front seat. "She has a gun!" The men shouted as they were being searched , hearing this one of the officers turned to my wife and asked if this were true. "Yes, my husbard works offshore and the kids and I are alone much of the time."He asked her if it was registered and she said no. He then asked her where she lived and she pointed down the road and gave her address. The officer replied "We'll take it from here mam, go home" Now , I have no doubt that had that Smith been on her hip, in plain sight, my wife would not have been struck in the face by a couple of chicken shi% cowards. In true coward form, once the gun came out they stopped and tried to play victim to the police. The point here is that the sight of that gun in her hard brought everything to a screeching halt. SO, in conclusion, Open Carry a tactical disadvantage ? BULLSHI^ |
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CaptainDan Regular Member
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BTW, I live on the West Bank of New Orleans, the highest rated city for murder per capita in our country, violent crime strikes my neighbors, friends and family. Please keep in mind my opinion is biased becouse of where I live. I just see an exposed means of self defence as much more a deterrant to crime than a disadvantage, after all we are not ninjas trying to sneak an attack on an unsuspecting advisary,if you present yourself as an easy target, guess what, you will be. we are not on the offence but rather the defense, the suprise "attack" just doesn't serve us. I would rather be seen as more trouble than I'm worth than an easy score.You don't think the average piece o ' shi@ that wants what's in your pocket wont kill you for it? Think again.You also don't think that before he takes his cheap shot at you he hasn't allready sized you up and convinced himself you are an easy mark? He looks at your clothes, your car, your watch,your age, decides if you are big enough to put up a fight etc. Now, as he sizes you up, see's you are a typical white male , not unusually big, not a pro football player and not armed,guess what, if he left the projects looking for a score , you're it. Same man , same situation only this time carrying , nope , can't smoke crack if he shoots me in the face. See where I'm going with this? Paranoid I am not, realist definately. I stomp every inch of the chocolate city, I just do it armed. My wife rarely leaves the house while I am gone and that sadens me , my kids do school and that's it , to make up for it when Daddy gets home We squeese every kool thing we can out of this great city.We see everything and go everywhere. So when the crack heads, muggers or the gang wanna be's look for a target , it's not gonna be me or mine. By excersizing my right to Open Carry I am making sure beyond a shadow of a doubt, for all thugs to see, I AM MOST DEFINATLY MORE TROUBLE THAN I AM WORTH. Last edited on Sat Jun 20th, 2009 05:14 am by CaptainDan |
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Johnny_B Regular Member
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I like your stance  |
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CaptainDan Regular Member
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Johnny_B wrote: I like your stance Thank you brother, |
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Johnny_B Regular Member
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I've actually been thinking about OCing the next time I head over to new orleans, but haven't really wanted to cause I don't know how well that would go over as my first OC experience >.> (gotta wait for X months for my Ms slip  ) might go to slidel or something else, cause I want to OC to get some experience in.But as I said I do like your stance because it makes sense, who wants to f@$% with someone who's got a glock, 1911, beretta, hand cannon, taser, WHATEVER strapped on their hip? Hmmm guy with gun, or idiot walking down a dark alley... |
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CaptainDan Regular Member
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Believe it or not , as I said I carry EVERYWHERE I GO IN NEW ORLEANS. literally. And have only had 1 encounter (detained in home depot) and even that didn't amount to much. I really don't think you'll have any prob what so ever. |
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Johnny_B Regular Member
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I may have to do that next time I head down there; however, I'm not to sure about the holster I have currently, a military M9 holster I was going to get myself a paddle holster for my beretta Px4 that holds a tac light but my fiance is making me wait until my birthday cause she wants to get it for me Donno if that type of holster would be a problem since it 'conceals' most of the gun (technical BS)...and I can't get the holster I want cause my fiance will flip out  Last edited on Sat Jun 20th, 2009 06:12 am by Johnny_B |
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CaptainDan Regular Member
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Man I know for a fact there have been arrests for "attempting to conceal" on people using military style holsters. The outcome I don't know but the arrests I am sure about.That is the only leg they realy have to stand on is the concealed issue. I use a black leather belt holster built for concealed carry (popular brand Just dont remember the name) but I carry an XDM, a pretty good sized weapon, and my shirt tucks behind it nicely. No chance of mistaking it for concealed. I think the flap that covers the grip is the issue. They know it is a gun but can't see it. I don't know brother, you could probably beat it in court after the arrest but who wants to go through all that? Don't know man, I stay clear of those kinds of holsters but that is just me. I got my holster for about $50.00 at Gretna gun Works. There are all types of generic holsters for less that would probably fit your gun for much less. You may not have any trouble at all , Only one way to find out, huh? I am not brave enough to risk it myself. |
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Johnny_B Regular Member
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Yeah that's my stance, why risk it? I think I'll get the holster and tell her to get the light  Back on topic, your correct! >.> |
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CaptainDan Regular Member
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Johnny_B wrote: Yeah that's my stance, why risk it? I think I'll get the holster and tell her to get the light Yea, New Orleans has treated me pretty well so far. I posted my only negative experience on "Detained in Home Depot" The situation turned out pretty well all in all though. |
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JT Regular Member 
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CaptainDan wrote: ...after all we are not ninjas trying to sneak an attack on an unsuspecting advisary... Excellent point. This is what has always crossed my mind when I hear people talking about "tactical advantage" in relation to concealed and open carry. We carry for self defense. I would rather the criminal leave me and mine alone than be provoked to draw and possibly fire my weapon because the criminal thinks I'm unarmed. Concealed carry is good because a law abiding citizen is armed. The deterrent factor lies in the hope that the criminal believes there is a significant chance his victim(s) will be armed in a given instance. The criminal doesn't know anyone is armed. With open carry the criminal knows his risk is increased. If this were not the case we wouldn't have people postulating that the open carrier would be shot first to remove the risk. The bottom line is both open and concealed carry are good but open carry is a more effective deterrent because of what the criminal knows. |
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smoking357 Banned 
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JT wrote: CaptainDan wrote:...after all we are not ninjas trying to sneak an attack on an unsuspecting advisary... Correct. |
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CaptainDan Regular Member
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Let me add, I do not in any way, shape, or form condem any one for carrying concealed, it just isn't for me. |
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cajunpapapump Regular Member 
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 Good posts and replys. Boy that holster sure does hide the weapon. I use the blackhawk sepra for my XD40, I chose it because I like the locking feature it has and the release is pretty useful. |
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JT Regular Member
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CaptainDan wrote: Let me add, I do not in any way, shape, or form condem any one for carrying concealed, it just isn't for me. Understood. I hope my post didn't make you think I was implying that you were anti-CC. I just appreciated your comment concerning the "tactical advantage" arguments. I prefer to carry open. Circumstances don't always make that possible. I want both options available for self defense. Tactical advantage has absolutely nothing to do with my reasons for or my method of carrying a firearm. |
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CaptainDan Regular Member
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I don't mean to wander off topic but I have heard good things about the Black Hawk Serpa. The holster I use is actually made for the XD 45, the XDM is bigger than the XD but about the same size as the XD 45 so it fits like it was made for it. At the time I was hunting a holster the XDM was still new and not many holsters were available then, but the one I have fit so well I haven't tried to replace it yet. Also I like the fact that the leather holsters hug the body better and don't pinch when I drive or sit. Nothing against the hard type, I just carry EVERYWHERE and my pistol is bulky enough. Last edited on Sat Jun 20th, 2009 08:00 pm by CaptainDan |
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CaptainDan Regular Member
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JT wrote: CaptainDan wrote:Let me add, I do not in any way, shape, or form condem any one for carrying concealed, it just isn't for me. No offence taken Brother, just trying not to step on any toes. In my opinion everyone's point is valued. |
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Jerry McBride Founder's Club Member
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CaptainDan - Not good that your family was assaulted. Hope they are okay, physically and mentally. Many OCers agree with your post, maybe 'tactically' that would be a requirement. There is no debate on tactics for me personally, either OC or leave it in the truck (no permit). Discussions on this 'tactical' advantage/disadvantage, here and elsewhere, don't explore what I believe is the most important point. There is a group, or subset if you will, of CCers who shoot and practice regularly, compete, seek advanced training, have life experiences and job skills most of us do not and that advocate the 'tactical' advantage(s) they will have. This group, IMO, would have a definite 'tactical' advantage. The people in this group would also have a 'tactical' advantage in some situations even if not armed. As noted, this is a much smaller group than the total of all CHP holders. IMO an OCer would not suffer 'tactical' disadvantages compared with most CCers. |
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CaptainDan Regular Member
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Jerry McBride wrote: CaptainDan - Not good that your family was assaulted. Hope they are okay, physically and mentally. Thank You for the concern, the wife had bruises the son came out OK, physically both are fine now. The wife is scared to leave the house while I'm gone and tries to keep the kids locked up too till I get home. As I said though I have 1 week off every 2 weeks so when I'm home I drag the family everywhere , I try to make it up to them (being locked up at home 2 weeks at a time) My wife does keep her revolver in her car when buisness, shopping,etc takes her out of the safety of her home. and when I'm home we shoot alot, so she is quite proficient with it. Every time I get home one of the first things she does is get my gun,wallet and watch out of the safe for me. She is much more at ease and feels totaly safe while with me while we are out, however when our ramblings find us in a questionable part of town I have cought her looking to make sure I am carrying.Some times she will even ask, "you have your gun, right?" And I agree 100% with your post . A tactical advantage is gained more through training than style of carry in my opinion. Besides once you are struck in the head (because visible signs of defence are absent, no one is going to attack an armed man) do you have the presence of mind to dig out a weapon tucked under your shirt or inside the waistband of your pants? |
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CaptainDan Regular Member
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You know, one other thought. It might even be that OCers actually have the advantage if for no other reason than we know everyone can see our weapon and am more aware of our suroundings , I know that while I don't suspect every one is out to get me, I am careful not to let groups of people stand directly behind me. if they do an occasional head turn with a smile or nod lets them know (politely and in a friendly manor) that i am aware they are there. Also I allways make sure when walking or standing in a crowd , my elbow rests against my side arm. It naturally rests there any way and if any one did try to disarm me they would have to knock my arm away first. Also when in large crowds I often speak to people in close proximity to me, this to me gives me a feeling of the mood of things. Usually a smile followed by somthing like , "wow , they realy need to open more checkouts, huh?" People usually peg me as a friendly, happy go lucky kinda guy becouse of my conduct where strtangers are concerned. It isn't that I'm trying to make new friends out of strangers as much as weighing the enviornment I am currently stuck in.Also you can check out the shifty drug slinger looking type much easier if you BRIEFLTY exchange greetings with him. To just stare blankly is in itself rude and suspicious. And could provoke an attack. "How ya doin?" rarely invites trouble where an odvious 3 minute silent size up might. Just my take on things, besides if somthing does go terribly wrong it would be nice for the witnesses to tell police "that man was very polite and was bothering no one talking to the gentleman behind him in line." instead of "That man was just staring at him with a mean look on his face and the other man said watta you lookin at? and that is where it started" Any way that is just how I carry myself in public, I think it gives me a better picture of the types of people standing around me and makes it easier to identify any possible threat while better protecting myself from losing my side arm to a suprise snatching. Also I like to think it makes all of us (OCers) look like regular Joe's instead of trouble hunting ex-military violence hounds, I know some people are gonna think what they want but why add fuel to the fire. |
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charlie12 Regular Member
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Capt. Dan, Glad you family is ok. I have a question you said. ."He asked her if it was registered and she said no" Do you have to register guns down there or did the LEO just not know LA law? Thanks |
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Jerry McBride Founder's Club Member
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CaptainDan If criminal acts can occur anytime or anywhere and you are knowledgeable of that, I agree that an increase in a person's awareness, armed or not, may make the difference. Just making yourself 'appear' to be a harder target is an advantage IMO. Increased awareness, meaning 'situational awareness', would seem to me, all the time, a good thing. All of us need good things. So, I agree with your follow-up thought too. |
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yale Regular Member 
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charlie12 wrote: Capt. Dan, Glad you family is ok. The LEO didn't know the law. When I encounter a citizen who asks, "Is that gun registered?" I have an overwhelming desire to present them with a sticker to wear that says "Everything I Know About The Law I Learned From Watching Reruns of Law & Order". |
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CaptainDan Regular Member
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charlie12 wrote: Capt. Dan, Glad you family is ok. Charlie 12 - Thanks for the concern, as to your question, absolutely not. There is no registeration of any kind for hand guns in La. This officer just didn't know it. I guess that is why he told her to go home after she told him no, but she was scared ard shook up so going home was all she wanted to do anyway. |
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XD-GEM Activist Member 
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yale wrote: charlie12 wrote:Capt. Dan, Glad you family is ok. Yeah, it's tempting to be sarcastic, but remember that your response will forever color that person's view of gun-owners in general, and not just of OCers. I usually smile and say something along the lines of, "In Louisiana, it's not required. The stuff you see in the movies or on TV about registration is there because the writers all live in California where the laws are different." That's usually good enough for most folks, as they are familiar with the concept of Louisiana having a Napoleonic Code as opposed to Common Law like the other states. They just assume that it has someting to do with that and let it drop - often with one of those "Isn't that something?" kind of looks. |
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Dustin Regular Member 
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cajunpapapump wrote:
Or the Level 3 Serpa. |
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charlie12 Regular Member
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XD-GEM wrote: yale wrote:charlie12 wrote:Capt. Dan, Glad you family is ok. Yep its all about how you say it. Saying hey butt hole we don't have that in LA wouldn't go over too good. |
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nolacopusmc Banned
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Political opinions aside.... Are some of you saying that there is no tactical advantage to concealing your weapon? |
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marshaul Activist Member 
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nolacopusmc wrote:Political opinions aside.... Depends on your threat model. |
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nolacopusmc Banned
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marshaul wrote: nolacopusmc wrote: Threat model. Wow. I guess that would be a no? |
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GoldCoaster Regular Member 
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CaptainDan wrote: You know, one other thought. It might even be that OCers actually have the advantage if for no other reason than we know everyone can see our weapon and am more aware of our suroundings , I know that while I don't suspect every one is out to get me, I am careful not to let groups of people stand directly behind me. if they do an occasional head turn with a smile or nod lets them know (politely and in a friendly manor) that i am aware they are there. Also I allways make sure when walking or standing in a crowd , my elbow rests against my side arm. It naturally rests there any way and if any one did try to disarm me they would have to knock my arm away first. Also when in large crowds I often speak to people in close proximity to me, this to me gives me a feeling of the mood of things. Usually a smile followed by somthing like , "wow , they realy need to open more checkouts, huh?"Dan, What you have described here is something I've believed for quite some time but never seen it written down. You are controlling your situational awareness, you are also extending your awareness to others by engaging them in a non-confrontational manner which allows you to size up their moods at least if not their intentions. I'm sorry to hear your wife was hurt and your son as well, it's a damn shame that normal law abiding folks have to feel like prisoners in their own homes. It's too bad the Chinese didn't quarantine your mayor for longer so you could get some sensible government in that great city of yours. I'm very glad she had the 38, lucky is the family who's provider has provided for their defense if he's not around. That gas station incident would have turned out much worse had she not had the means to defend herself. Regards to you and the family |
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GoldCoaster Regular Member
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double tap Last edited on Sat Jun 27th, 2009 02:54 pm by GoldCoaster |
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JT Regular Member
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nolacopusmc wrote: Political opinions aside.... "Tactical advantage" is somewhat of a misnomer when you are talking about self defense. The first object is not to be chosen as a victim by the criminal. LEO's like yourself talk alot about that when you talk about things like not going certain places at certain times, parking in well lighted areas, etc. What you are saying is that self defense starts with crime prevention which primarily consists of finding ways of deterring the criminal. Open carry fits this deterrent model better than concealed carry because it shows the criminal that his risk is dramatically increased. The more people that are carrying openly in a given area the greater the deterrent. Once the criminal attacks it can be argued that a concealed weapon will surprise the criminal more than an openly carried weapon but any "tactical advantage" will depend on the ability of the victim to deploy his or her weapon from concealment. What is generally said is that a determined violent criminal is more likely to target the open carrier first to reduce his risk. That same logic applies to the concealed carrier the minute he goes for his concealed weapon because once the criminal is aware that he is going for a weapon he becomes the primary target. His "element of surprise" advantage depends more on his skill level and willingness to act decisively than on the fact that his weapon is concealed. The truth is that more often than not, just the display of the weapon from concealment ends the confrontation. Why would that not be true of the openly carried weapon as well? If the display of the weapon will most often end the confrontation without shots fired then why would we assume that the display of the weapon will embolden the criminal to attack? The tactical advantage argument makes no sense to me because it only deals with a supposed aspect of self defense once an attack is in progress. |
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nolacopusmc Banned
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JT wrote: nolacopusmc wrote:You are absolutely correct in the concept of not "becoming a target", but there are times when you are not the intended victim, but could still suffer consequences, even though you were situationally aware. Otherwise, that is a very eloquent regurgitation of the typical OC pipe dream that some "average guy" with a gun will deter the average criminal. While it will serve as a limited deterrent to purely opportunistic criminals, it does not serve as a deterrent to motivated offenders. Of course, neither of us can prove what does not happen, but the closest correlation are published studies using convenience stores with varying level of deterrents from increased lighting, CCTV, to security and fully uniformed officers in marked units.Political opinions aside.... Again, while we cannot ever know the number of assailants deterred by the actions, or of the OC guy at the counter buying a lottery ticket and some Skittles, we do know what does happen. A reasonable exstrapolation can be made from those criminals that do act in the presence of these "deterrents" to make a reasonable estimation of their effect. You are oversimplifying it a little. I could give you a thousand scenatrios where i could draw my gun and react without the criminal ever knowing I had a weapon. Now if you are being mugged as the primary victim, then yes, it is a matter more os speed of draw unless you can fake getting a wallet and grabbing a weapon or something similar.
It could, and I am not saying that OC does not ever deter criminals, when when you do a detailed study of the motivation and assimilation of the modern criminal in today's society, they are not deterred by much because of the same concept of inoculation to punishment that we utilize as trainers for inoculation to stress---the more you experience, the less effect it has on you. Another argument, is that if you are OC, and an assailant comes into the Quickie Mark, and then notices you, now he must address you as a threat. Sure, he may run away scared, but he may also do what most people who see a gun as a threat relative to them would do, and draw, or at least address the threat. Now you are forced to respond to that address. What is you are getting your daughter a Slurpee and an armed robber comes in and tells the cashier to give him the money, and tells you to get on the ground? He already has the drop on you, so even with a cross draw revolver, your reaction will not beat his reaction. Drawing will almost certainly result in you getting shot. If you are OC, then he must address your weapon, IE shoot you or at least disarm you, or if you were concealed, you could play the part of the sheeple, be a good witness, and not have to get in a shoot out with your daughter. Point is, you choose when to react, instead of him forcing your hand. Again, you seem very intelligent, so I am sure you are aware, these types of scenarios are far more complex than can be addressed here. I appreciate your rational and mature argument. Please do not take any of my text as inflammatory, as this is how I type. You have very many valid points, I just think the issue is a little to complex to get to the bottom of online. OC or CC? You can develop tactics to make either work in many situations. Just like some people prefer bigger bullets over bigger magazines, I prefer my element of surprise and my control over my reaction to the hope that my display of a gun will scare an otherwise criminal person who had made the conscious decision to victimize someone. Last edited on Sat Jun 27th, 2009 05:46 pm by nolacopusmc |
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JT Regular Member
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nolacopusmc wrote: You are oversimplifying... That is precisely the point. Each situation is different and we could all identify pros and cons to a method of carry in a given situation against a given opponent. The possible scenarios are endless. Those that argue open carry is a "tactical disadvantage" constantly cite an over-simplified scenario in which a criminal targets the open carrier. In defense of concealed carry you said; I could give you a thousand scenatrios where i could draw my gun and react without the criminal ever knowing I had a weapon. I don't dispute that. I could give you lots of scenarios too. Each scenario has different variables. My point is that there is no sure fire "tactics" argument that makes one method of carry superior to the other. Each method has its pros and cons. The biggest pro for each is a law abiding citizen having a firearm with which to defend himself. Each person's success will vary in a given situation but the ability to freely excercise the right is the point. You asked "political opinions aside" but unfortunately the arguement for "tactical advantage" often takes place in the context of whether or not open carry should be allowed. You alluded to that sentiment when you said; Otherwise, that is a very eloquent regurgitation of the typical OC pipe dream that some "average guy" with a gun will deter the average criminal. I tried my best not to discuss the "politics" as you requested but you since you have injected that back into the discussion let me ask you this. Why the apparent contempt for the "average guy with a gun?" Is not the idea of arming citizens to make the "average guy" more than just average? You honestly believe that an apparently armed "average guy" is no greater deterrent to any criminal than an apparently unarmed "average guy?" How does the criminal know the skill level of the armed "average guy"? I suspect that by "average guy" you really mean non-state sanctioned or non-LEO. The bottom line is this. In is a good thing when law abiding citizens are armed. The arguement about tactics is useless to the cause of civil rights for gun owners. In the current climate, the law abiding armed citizen, whether he carries openly or concealed, has more reason to fear a confrontation with LEO's than with criminals. That isn't the way it should be. Last edited on Sat Jun 27th, 2009 07:11 pm by JT |
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smoking357 Banned
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nolacopusmc wrote:You are oversimplifying it a little. I could give you a thousand scenatrios where i could draw my gun and react without the criminal ever knowing I had a weapon. Do any not involve a bottle of Jergen's? |
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CaptainDan Regular Member
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Thank you Goldcoaster for the concerns regarding my family. That is another instance where the sight of a sidearm alone defused a potentially deadly situation. |
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CaptainDan Regular Member
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Again gentlemen, as I have stated many times before the average criminal is a COWARD and chooses his victims carefully, waiting for the old lady in the parking lot,kids at the register at happy burger, etc. Thease people are out for an easy score with as little resistance as possible , sure they might shoot everybody inside if pushed being the cowards they are. But that is why they don't hold up night clubs (too much security ) or any place where they can't "hit and run" If the threat of harm to themselves is present, however slight, they will choose another target, store, whatever. In my opinion thease violent criminals , while cowards through and through, are axtremely dangerous as they attack unseen, they wait, plan and attack when they think they can get away , The very reason you asses your suroundings and make a quick glance around scanning all around you. If you meet the gaze of a stranger smile or nod and move on. Now if some one new walks in behind you, you only have 1 new person to survey. You have allready assed every one ealse. Now if this guy does intend on doing bodily harm to you or someone near you, HE KNOWS YOU HAVE SEEN HIM AND KNOWS YOU KNOW HE'S THERE , THEN HE SEE"S YOUR GUN. Not gonna happen. As far as being a victim by accident, becouse BG see's your gun and takes you out first at the Quicky Mart, PAY ATTENTION (see above) ASSES your suroundings!! If Kareem is walking to the door with an AK in his hand you shoukd be the first to know it. If Jatonqua jerks a raven .25 out of his pants as soon as he opens the door, again , you should be the first to know it. Also who in their right mind walks ANYWHERE especially in a questionable part of town IE - where I live, and doesn't look behind them at regular intervals? A quick glance over your shoulder now and then? Now on the dedicated threat, where the attacker knows EXACTLY who he's gonna get it makes absolutly no difference if you are carrying a gun in your pants or in your hand as far as whether he's gonna attack you or not. The advantage there is OC the gun is readilky available CC you gotta fish it out. In my opinion if you keep your head out of your a@@, you(OC) will allways have the advantage over violent crime. Bury your face in a Big Mac unaware of everything around you and yes you stand a chance of gett'n snuck ! Besides on the odd chance I don't see 3 or 4 thugs running at me from the side while in the Quarter (the bum rush tactic) , I don't want to have to dig for my piece after 2 or three blows to the back of the head. One more thing to consider Guys, try to conceal a full size sidearm, if I have to return fire to save the life of my wife or children it aint gonna be with a compact .380 becouse it fits neatly inside my trousers and hides so nicely. I want a full size combat hand gun!!! Yes Gentlemen, you Guys see me outside my house and YOU WILL ALLWAYS SEE THE XDM ON MY HIP , 1 in the pipe and 16 right behind it. In my opinion.....OC or CC ? No question about it OC baby. Last edited on Sat Jun 27th, 2009 08:09 pm by CaptainDan |
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marshaul Activist Member
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nolacopusmc wrote:marshaul wrote:nolacopusmc wrote: What's your threat model? Are you James Bond, or Joe Citizen? |
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PT111 Regular Member 
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You can list all the advantages of OC vs. CC and in an attack by BG's there is no doubt that the advantages of OC will come out on top. There are some advantages of CC but in the overall scheme OC far outweighs CC in the defensive scenario where BG's are involved in most cases. Where CC comes out on top is the societial or as some put it the political side. This does not involve BG's but rather the general public. You walk into the 7-11 OC, start looking for you favorite beer and if the cashier sees you he/she is going to be paying attention you you rather than the BG walking in with his gun hidden until he has it shoved into the cashier's face. If she had been paying attention to the BG she would already be hiding behind the counter pushing the alarm. Advantages to both CC and OC but in the majority of defansive situations OC comes out on top. |
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smoking357 Banned
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CaptainDan wrote: Again gentlemen, as I have stated many times before the average criminal is a COWARD and chooses his victims carefully, waiting for the old lady in the parking lot,kids at the register at happy burger, etc. Thease people are out for an easy score with as little resistance as possible , sure they might shoot everybody inside if pushed being the cowards they are. But that is why they don't hold up night clubs (too much security ) or any place where they can't "hit and run" If the threat of harm to themselves is present, however slight, they will choose another target, store, whatever. In my opinion thease violent criminals , while cowards through and through, are axtremely dangerous as they attack unseen, they wait, plan and attack when they think they can get away , Yeah, like this: [img]img%20src=%22http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/MikesPhotos37/Speedtrap3.jpg[/img]  OC deters violence, just like a cop car in plain view is the most effective deterrent to speeding. Makes you wonder why they don't employ the most effective deterrent? |
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marshaul Activist Member
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Speeding tickets aren't a deterrent. They are revenue, and I don't want to debate this self-evident point with the apologists right now. What's the best way to collect revenue? To sit out in the open, or to hide and let people fly past before they realize you're even there? What is the point of your fail argument? Are you trying to advocate the advantage of CC? Edit: Upon reading that again, it occurs to me that I may actually agree with your post, but if that is the case it is egregiously off-topic. If your sole point is that speeding traps aren't a deterrent, then you've showed that pretty well. But it's off topic. Last edited on Sat Jun 27th, 2009 09:16 pm by marshaul |
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nolacopusmc Banned
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smoking357 wrote: nolacopusmc wrote: Your an ass, but we knew thaT ALREADY. |
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nolacopusmc Banned
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CaptainDan wrote:
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nolacopusmc Banned
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JT wrote: nolacopusmc wrote:You are oversimplifying... Not really sure how I mentioned politics. By average guy, i meant that the bad guys look at people into two categories 1. i can take that guy 2. i cannot take that guy. i know this from interviewing hundreds of thieves, rapists, and a hand full of outright murders, not to mention the hundreds of additional case studies I have read through my schooling. That said, i apologize if I misrepresented what I meant with the term average guy. I know most here hate LEO, but the bad guys are simply not deterred unless they think they will be beat. most have such an exposure rate to violence and guns, that a non-LEO with a gun is not threat to them. they have homies in their hood who are simjply men with guns. The fact that a LEO potentially can put them back in prison, may serve as a slight DETERRENT to some, but they would just as soon shoot a LEO. Question: If weapons are such a deterrent, why are so many cops shot? I mean other than because they deserve it for being Facist governement pigs? Seriously? Last edited on Sun Jun 28th, 2009 12:28 am by nolacopusmc |
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CaptainDan Regular Member
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Nola, don't understand the question about the "proudly displayed full size hand gun" but would be happy to elaborate for you if you clarify the question, if indeed a question it was and not a blanket statement. Why are so many cops shot? One possible awnser is they are constantly involved in violent situations, domestic violence, robbery, etc. Any one who earns their living by the gun , so to speak, is gonna get shot at , especially in Da Chocolate City. When you show up (da po-po) the shi@ has all ready hit the fan and you are walking right into it. |
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CaptainDan Regular Member
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Also I'm going to assume you were trying to make a valid point/question all though I never said "proudly" you added that to what I said , hereby changing my meaning, becouse I have never taken a jab at you or any one ealse. So please clarify your question/point for me please. Oh , and I challenge you to hide a 5 1/2 in. barrel 17 shot .40 WHERE IT CAN STLL BE EASILY AND QUICKLY RETRIEVED and still not be seen COMFORTABLY. Allthough I am a little bigger than the average man (6'tall , 232 lbs , size 34 waist) I am not heavy and my wife says I have no butt, my waist and stomach are flat ,typical old jock build, my shoulders all though not huge, are the widest part of my body, so tell me with a build like mine where does such a large weapon ride unseen ? With out runn'in it up the old mud whistle, where can I put it and still get to it without a struggle? Last edited on Sun Jun 28th, 2009 12:35 am by CaptainDan |
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smoking357 Banned
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marshaul wrote: If your sole point is that speeding traps aren't a deterrent, then you've showed that pretty well. But it's off topic. I don't connect every dot. To do would insult my reader. My point is simply that open deters better than concealed, whatever the activity. Oh, and I agreed on the methods cowards employ to capture their prey. Last edited on Sun Jun 28th, 2009 12:32 am by smoking357 |
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marshaul Activist Member
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smoking357 wrote:marshaul wrote:If your sole point is that speeding traps aren't a deterrent, then you've showed that pretty well. But it's off topic. Fair enough. |
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nolacopusmc Banned
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CaptainDan wrote: Also I'm going to assume you were trying to make a valid point/question all though I never said "proudly" you added that to what I said , hereby changing my meaning, becouse I have never taken a jab at you or any one ealse. So please clarify your question/point for me please. No one said comfortable. Carrying a weapon is not comfortable...it is comforting. |
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nolacopusmc Banned
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CaptainDan wrote: Also I'm going to assume you were trying to make a valid point/question all though I never said "proudly" you added that to what I said , hereby changing my meaning, becouse I have never taken a jab at you or any one ealse. So please clarify your question/point for me please. Don't read too much into it. he use of proudly was sarcastic, which is my personality. In these forums, I typically type how I would conversate. |
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marshaul Activist Member
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nolacopusmc wrote:Question: If weapons are such a deterrent, why are so many cops shot? I mean other than because they deserve it for being Facist governement pigs? I have no idea, and the human race may never know, but I can assure you it has nothing whatsoever to do with it being their job to arrest people who desperately want to say out of jail. |
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nolacopusmc Banned
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marshaul wrote: nolacopusmc wrote: I do not understand your point. |
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nolacopusmc Banned
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CaptainDan wrote: Nola, don't understand the question about the "proudly displayed full size hand gun" but would be happy to elaborate for you if you clarify the question, if indeed a question it was and not a blanket statement.Very valid statement, but if the cops show up with a displayed gun, your earlier arguments suggest that the known presence of it, should be a deterrent. I would say that the police have the advantage over the average guy from the perspective of the criminal, because they know for a fact that the police are willing and able( arguably to varying degrees  ) to use it. Do you not see a disadvantage with weapon retention in an OC scenario. i mean to say if the goes for your gun, now you have to deal with that. CC will not likely encounter that unless the weapon is already drawn, which in most situations will be a shoot scenario. I would assume that many on here, do not have any form of training in weapon retention and from what I have seen in pictures, gear selection is not remotely adequate to begin to accomodate the potential training shortfalls. |
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CaptainDan Regular Member
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nolacopusmc wrote: CaptainDan wrote:Nola, now I see where you are coming from. Comforting not comfortable. When you see me you will notice that my side arm , as big as it is, rides very comfortably on my right hip, just behind center. So comfortable in fact, I often bang the butt on doorways, car doors, etc. I literally forget it's there, I even catch myself from time to time lowering my elbow to make sure it's still there (I know it is I just can't feel it) Possibly due, OK probably due, to my choice in leather. My holster is at its point in life where its the softest leather and has conformed to the shape and bend of my hip. If your gun hurts to carry, look into other holster possibilities, The hard plastic one that came with my gun was a pain and pinched when I sat or drove.Also I'm going to assume you were trying to make a valid point/question all though I never said "proudly" you added that to what I said , hereby changing my meaning, becouse I have never taken a jab at you or any one ealse. So please clarify your question/point for me please. |
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nolacopusmc Banned
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CaptainDan wrote: nolacopusmc wrote:CaptainDan wrote:Nola, now I see where you are coming from. Comforting not comfortable. When you see me you will notice that my side arm , as big as it is, rides very comfortably on my right hip, just behind center. So comfortable in fact, I often bang the butt on doorways, car doors, etc. I literally forget it's there, I even catch myself from time to time lowering my elbow to make sure it's still there (I know it is I just can't feel it) Possibly due, OK probably due, to my choice in leather. My holster is at its point in life where its the softest leather and has conformed to the shape and bend of my hip. If your gun hurts to carry, look into other holster possibilities, The hard plastic one that came with my gun was a pain and pinched when I sat or drove.Also I'm going to assume you were trying to make a valid point/question all though I never said "proudly" you added that to what I said , hereby changing my meaning, becouse I have never taken a jab at you or any one ealse. So please clarify your question/point for me please. I feel you. there are defintely more comforting options out there,. but for those who OC, I think along with situational awareness, weapon retention should be a priority. |
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CaptainDan Regular Member
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I can only speak for myself, however , one would think the USMC provided the best training in the free world when it came to use of small arms, wouldn't you agree?  After all Uncle Sam spends Millions teaching young men to become masters of their craft. |
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smoking357 Banned
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marshaul wrote: nolacopusmc wrote: Actually, "so many" aren't killed. In 2005, only 50 were shot. http://www.policeone.com/officer-shootings/articles/134343-Fifty-officers-shot-to-death-in-2005/ Bear in mind there are about a million people working for police departments. http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_74.html Being a police officer is safer than these occupations: Occupations more dangerous than being a police officer: Number of deaths per 100,000 employed Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics, Census of Fatal Occupational Injuries - 2001 Timber cutting: 122.1 Fishermen: 112.1 Airplane pilots: 100.8 Miners: 29.8 Farmers: 28.0 Construction laborers: 27.7 Truck drivers: 25.0 Groundskeepers: 15.0 Laborers (non-construction): 14.2 Ranchers: 13.0 Bus drivers: 12.9 Police and detectives: 11.6 National average: 4.0 |
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nolacopusmc Banned
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CaptainDan wrote: I can only speak for myself, however , one would think the USMC provided the best training in the free world when it came to use of small arms, wouldn't you agree? Great training, but not in the same context. Definitely beneficial, but shal we say the ROE is a little different. Offense vs. Defense. Every Marine is a Rifleman.  |
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nolacopusmc Banned
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smoking357 wrote: marshaul wrote:nolacopusmc wrote: Damn, for someone who is otherwise a bubbling cesspool of worthless virtual ignorance, that is a remotely useful post for a change.  Now how about a little more recent data. |
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CaptainDan Regular Member
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nolacopusmc wrote: CaptainDan wrote:Good point, however, hand to hand, small arms, ranged weapons , one shot etc. all come into play when defending one's life, wouldn't you say?I can only speak for myself, however , one would think the USMC provided the best training in the free world when it came to use of small arms, wouldn't you agree? |
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nolacopusmc Banned
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CaptainDan wrote: nolacopusmc wrote:CaptainDan wrote:Good point, however, hand to hand, small arms, ranged weapons , one shot etc. all come into play when defending one's life, wouldn't you say?I can only speak for myself, however , one would think the USMC provided the best training in the free world when it came to use of small arms, wouldn't you agree? Absolutely. But specific training with your carry sytem in a admittedly non-permissive and hostile enviroment is still a little different than in a combat zone where almost everything is a DO SHOOT option. |
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marshaul Activist Member
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marshaul wrote:nolacopusmc wrote: My (sarcastically presented) point is that OC is a deterrent for police, but it isn't always enough when you're trying to arrest someone who desperately doesn't want to go to jail. A citizen has no such considerations. Last edited on Sun Jun 28th, 2009 01:05 am by marshaul |
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CaptainDan Regular Member
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Lets agree to disagree, I believe OC is the best possible method for many reasons in a defensive application. If I were a combat Marine, stealth would have It's place but not here, If I have to sneak some one I'm on the wrong side of the law. When my weapon leaves my side, negotation is out of the question along with polite conversation. Somthing bad has all ready happened or is about to. At this point the sneak attack is out of the question. Again , my opinion. |
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nolacopusmc Banned
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marshaul wrote: marshaul wrote: i sincerely do not understand the distiction you are trying to make. COuld you please explain. Kinda funny how you, me, Captain Dan, Jerry McBride, et al. Can have civil conversations, yet MEM and Smoking have to resort to libel name calling and slanderous staements. |
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nolacopusmc Banned
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CaptainDan wrote: Lets agree to disagree, I believe OC is the best possible method for many reasons in a defensive application. If I were a combat Marine, stealth would have It's place but not here, If I have to sneak some one I'm on the wrong side of the law. Fair enough, and please do not misunderstand. I am not saying that from a defensive tactics standpoint that there are not times when OC is a better alternative to CC. I am of the mind that it is BENEFICIAL TO ME, that the tactical trade off between concealment and accessibility/deterrence makes concealment a higher commodity in my operating enviroment. If OC works for you, more power to you. healthy discussion leads to innovation,. I am always down.  |
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marshaul Activist Member
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You should see me in the other thread I'm currently participating in. Apparently I just can't stop insulting people!  At any rate, the distinction is simple. Cops confront people who may be otherwise minding their own business, and have the goal of putting criminals where they don't want to be: in jail. I, on the other hand, will let a parole violator go. I have no duty to stop him. So, while the violator might be deterred from robbing me for $20 due to my sidearm, he might also not be sufficiently deterred once a cop is actually trying to haul him in, and may go for the gun. Obviously a hypothetical scenario with many "may"s and "might"s, but I hope the point is made. Think about it: criminals shoot cops during an attempted arrest (or traffic stop) all the time. When was the last time someone shot a cop out of the blue, just to see if he had any cash in his wallet? Conversely, when was the last time a citizen was shot during a traffic stop? Police have a very different threat model from ordinary citizens, especially while they're on the job. Last edited on Sun Jun 28th, 2009 01:18 am by marshaul |
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nolacopusmc Banned
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marshaul wrote: You should see me in the other thread I'm currently participating in. Apparently I just can't stop insulting people! I concur. Well put. |
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CaptainDan Regular Member
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nolacopusmc wrote: CaptainDan wrote:Lets agree to disagree, I believe OC is the best possible method for many reasons in a defensive application. If I were a combat Marine, stealth would have It's place but not here, If I have to sneak some one I'm on the wrong side of the law. Understood, We have very different roles in society, as you have stated, Mine thease days is of self preservation , Yours is preservation of the law, therefore our opinions (naturally) will differ slightly. No harm No foul. By the way, my father was shot in the chest (oklahoma city officer) during a domestic call. The WIFE shot him while He cuffed the Husband. That ended his career, the slug was too close to the heart to remove so He still has it , no trouble with it but He has a "Swirlie" looking scar on his chest. To this day, my father goes armed or he doesn't go. I only added those facts to illustrate the fact that I understand how different walks of life influence the way you look at things. Our views may be different , but no one is particulary wrong. Last edited on Sun Jun 28th, 2009 01:30 am by CaptainDan |
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nolacopusmc Banned
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CaptainDan wrote: nolacopusmc wrote:My thanks go to him for his sacrifice.CaptainDan wrote:Lets agree to disagree, I believe OC is the best possible method for many reasons in a defensive application. If I were a combat Marine, stealth would have It's place but not here, If I have to sneak some one I'm on the wrong side of the law. Definitely different missions. Take care. |
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JT Regular Member
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nolacopusmc wrote: Not really sure how I mentioned politics. By average guy, i meant that the bad guys look at people into two categories 1. i can take that guy 2. i cannot take that guy. i know this from interviewing hundreds of thieves, rapists, and a hand full of outright murders, not to mention the hundreds of additional case studies I have read through my schooling. I didn't say you mentioned politics. I said that you alluded to the sentiment and the argument most commonly used against open carry. I took it upon myself to direct the remainder of my post to arguing against that sentiment. My point was clear however that an argument of tactics is meaningless in the context of rights which is what this board is about. That said, i apologize if I misrepresented what I meant with the term average guy. I know most here hate LEO, but the bad guys are simply not deterred unless they think they will be beat. most have such an exposure rate to violence and guns, that a non-LEO with a gun is not threat to them. they have homies in their hood who are simjply men with guns. My apologies if I misunderstood you. Most here don't "hate" LEOs. I certainly don't. My disagreement with you doesn't equal "hate." I count some former LEOs among my best friends. I have family members who were career LEOs. I respect the job LEOs do when they themselves are law abiding citizens because I understand the difficulty of the job they do. That said, the bad guy doesn't know if he will be beat until he engages his victim. He has no way of knowing the skill level of any individual. He may assume one way or the other but it may cost him his life. I would favorably compare my personal skill level against any LEO but that isn't the point.
The answer is simple. They are shot more because they are actively involved in engaging armed criminals more often than the armed non-LEO is. Would you suggest that we should disarm LEOs or require their weapons be concealed to make their job safer? Of course not. The same logic applies to other citizens. Finally, I never said anything derogatory about LEOs as you seem to infer. I did point out a fact about the likelyhood of a law abiding citizen being confronted by a LEO over being armed. That is the truth and it isn't right. It's not so much an indictment of individual LEOs as it is the political climate concerning armed citizens who aren't LEOs. You have a responsibility to enforce laws and I respec that but your rights are supposed to be the same as mine. I have a right and responsibility to defend myself and my family. You have no such responsibility towards me and mine. That isn't a derogatory comment. It is a fact of law. I would have us both openly armed with equal respect for each others rights and responsibilities. |
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nolacopusmc Banned
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JT wrote: nolacopusmc wrote:Not really sure how I mentioned politics. By average guy, i meant that the bad guys look at people into two categories 1. i can take that guy 2. i cannot take that guy. i know this from interviewing hundreds of thieves, rapists, and a hand full of outright murders, not to mention the hundreds of additional case studies I have read through my schooling. Last edited on Sun Jun 28th, 2009 03:22 am by nolacopusmc |
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R a Z o R Banned 
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Imagine a 125 pound female buting tampons and Open Carrying her firearm . Open Carrying is a deterrent . Nobody will let me be their huckleberry with my crossdraw S&W 640 with ivory , even though I'm in a wheelchair and easy prey . Open Carrying with ivory is a deterrent too . What was it that Patton said about New Orleans ? Last edited on Sun Jun 28th, 2009 03:34 am by R a Z o R |
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marshaul Activist Member
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"Only a pimp in a New Orleans whorehouse would carry a pearl-handled pistol". P.S. It's not foul language when it's a famous quote. |
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yale Regular Member
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Well, this arguement could go on forever. The thing for me is, I don't open carry to be "tactical". I don't care about tactical advantage. I carry because I can the pistol on my belt is just another part of my "kit" that I perfer to have available with me at all times. I have a cellphone in a phone "holster" on my left hip. There's nothing tactical about it. It's a safe place for the phone to ride until I need it as opposed to being in my pocket getting scrapped up by spare change, keys, etc. The pistol on my right hip is, to me, no different than my cellphone. It's there, safe and relativly secure until such time as I need it. I'm not going out looking for trouble or to make some sort of statement. I avoid dangerous places and situations as best as I can. When, through accident or some unfortuant circumstance I find myself needing to defend myself I like knowing that I have a way to do so. I'm not looking to sneak attack anyone. I'm not going to "wait for the perfect moment to strike". If I am caught in a situation where someone attacks I don't worry about having the element of suprise. I've probably already lost it anyway. |
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nolacopusmc Banned
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yale wrote: Well, this arguement could go on forever. I think you totally mised the point of the discussion. It is not about being tactical, like a SWAT Team, it is about utilizing sound tactics, or techniques to get the desired results. Situational awareness, having a lawyer, cleaning your weapon, are all tactics to some degree. No one is saying you should be looking to sneak atack anyone, but there are times when it is advantageous to have someone not know you have a firearm until you feel it is the best moment to use it less you be singled out because of that weapon. For example, one lone hostage taker and you are in a group of hostages. Having a secreted weapon and waiting until is attention is diverted to draw and react. Kinda out their example, but I think it makes my point. I agree that the pistol is a tool no different than a cell phone, but decisions about how and when you use said tool are kinda what we are discussing. |
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Oscarr Regular Member 
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Nola: I'm curious, would you (on duty) rather be walking around in plain clothes, concealing, or walking around in uniform, openly carrying. Which way would you feel safer? And which way do you think would be a better deterrent? And which way would be the best combination or public and cop safety? Not just you, but for all cops/police/etc in general. Last edited on Sun Jun 28th, 2009 05:01 pm by Oscarr |
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nolacopusmc Banned
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Oscarr wrote: Nola: I'm curious, would you (on duty) rather be walking around in plain clothes, concealing, or walking around in uniform, openly carrying. Which way would you feel safer? And which way do you think would be a better deterrent? And which way would be the best combination or public and cop safety? Not just you, but for all cops/police/etc in general. Well, of course I cannot answer for all cops, just like i cannot answer for all on here. Each method has it's advantages and disadvantages depending on the intended duties of each. maybe you could elaborate. If I was a detective, i would want plain clothes open carrry because the weapon ind badge identifies me as an officer yet the lack of a uniform makes many people more at ease which would be helpful when interviewing witnesses and suspects which is what most detectives do. If i was on regular patrol, i would want to be in an marked unit, full uniform, of course OC. This way I was unmistakenly identifieable as a LEO in case someone needed me for assistance or I needed to make my official presence known to a suspected perptrator. If I was doing intelligence work, drug investigation, gangs, strett crimes, or similar work, i would want to be Plain clothes CC inorder to remain undetected until the moment I choose to identify myself for the purpose of making an arrest or similar activity. I can tell you this though, most LEo, when off-duty, CC. In fact, many departmental policies require that off-duty CC rather than OC unless performing LEO actions. To answer your question would require 100% on what i was doing "On-Duty" Great question though. |
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Oscarr Regular Member
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I guess mainly I was just curious if patrol cops ever felt unsafe, or like they had a target painted on them? And if they'd prefer to be plain-clothes/CC or not. Course I guess that depends on the area you patrol too. Edit: Just noticed, they REQUIRE you to CC? What's the reasoning for that, outta curiosity. Do you feel like that's taking away your right to OC? Last edited on Sun Jun 28th, 2009 06:02 pm by Oscarr |
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XD-GEM Activist Member
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Oscarr wrote: I guess mainly I was just curious if patrol cops ever felt unsafe, or like they had a target painted on them? And if they'd prefer to be plain-clothes/CC or not. I've had many relatives, friends, and aquaintances in various law enforcment agencies through the years; and this subject does come up once in awhile. All of them agree that requiring LEO to carry off-duty is a good idea, but many of them chomp at the bit on the CC only restriction. They feel that they should be allowed to choose their carry method based on the given off duty situation they will be in. |
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nolacopusmc Banned
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Oscarr wrote: I guess mainly I was just curious if patrol cops ever felt unsafe, or like they had a target painted on them? And if they'd prefer to be plain-clothes/CC or not. Ummm, kinda a complicated thing. For example. Most departments that allow officers to take home their police sars require that when they are in those police cars, on oroff dutry that the they have at minimum radio, weapon, and id. Just in case they happen upon a situation or are flagged down for emergency service. the ugly fact is that LEO does have a bullseye painted on their back, mostly surrounding gang and drug arrests. In the past year, there has been a small spike in officers specifically targeted at home or ambushed on the road, and the connection is usually a previous drug or gang arrest they made. Furthermore, many departmental policies mandate that an officer be armed and credentialed at all times when in his/her jusridiction. While on one level I think it is fundamentally wrong to require it by policy, I definitely do it by choice and think it is a good idea due to the officer safety issues mentioned above. I have personally been approached on a handful of occassins in public off duty by people i arrested, ticketed, or encountered on-duty. Despite what some post about me on here, and how I come across in my posts, I am highly professional and courtesy on-duty. besides the fact that it is my nature, i am smart enough to know that no matter how many internet ninja classes I take, the odds are in the duirtbags favor to get me if he is determined and committed enough. that said, I do not let it rule my life, but I try to treat even the lowest scum on earth with respect and compassion. Kinda the make less enemies tactic. Lucky for me, the encounters i had, more often in not resulted in the felon/speeder/drunk thanking me fornot being a dick to them even though most of those incidents got highly physical. they apologized and thanked me for being "cool". I have however, got the "mean eyes" from those that may have thought they recognized me, and I was glad i was aremed in case i needed to be armed. Without quoting anyparticular agencies policy, some in the area require CC when "not in the performance of duties" When I am in my police car in plain clothes, I OC with badge. I figure when I step out a marked car, the gig is up. Last edited on Sun Jun 28th, 2009 07:09 pm by nolacopusmc |
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Oscarr Regular Member
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Thanks for the replies. |
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CaptainDan Regular Member
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Yale, you and I are of the same mind. The Sneak attack in my opinion is for ninjas and narcotics agents' I am trying to sneak attack no one. When my gun is needed it's needed now. The crap has all ready hit the fan and I am in damage control mode. |
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nolacopusmc Banned
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CaptainDan wrote: Yale, you and I are of the same mind. FWIW, I was in no way advocating any sort of sneak attack. By the very nature of why most here carry, we are not on the attack, we are on the defensive. The BG makes the first agressive move in 99.9% of the cases. I am simply saying, sometimes having the BG not know you have a gun, until the very second you intend to fire is a value. To each their own. heal;thy discussion though. This is what i like. Not like other threads here in recent times. |
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Oscarr Regular Member
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I got a friend that prefers to CC (but still uses his OC right in some situations, like clothing that doesn't allow CC, etc) for the 'surprise element' too, he dosen't want to be a primary target for a bad guy. Me personally I prefer OC cause I believe (purely opinion/conjecture) that there are more bad guys would be deterred by an OCer than there are bad guys that would decide to go ahead and try to kill/disarm/incapacitate the OCer first. And even then, those that would attack an OCer, if they are of even a semi-rational mindset and not just hell bent on killing, would prolly be deterred by the idea of a mostly-armed society, where they may shoot one guy, but they'll have 30 other people returning fire. Which is why I advocate people carrying, OC or otherwise. Another reason I OC is to show people a gun doesn't automatically make you a looney, and there's plenty of respectable, non-LEO people that carry. Maybe that'll convince someone else "hey, he's carrying openly and no one is freaking out, I can carry too!". |
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CaptainDan Regular Member
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Nola, I see your point and didn't intend to apply you were advocating the sneak attack, also I can see where for you CC is sometimes required. One reason I am so comfortable OCing is becouse of my level of awareness. I asses every location with quick glances and a smile or nod as I have mentioned before. I know who is standing around me and when they see me I acknowlage them letting them know I know they are there (smile or nod) Also No one is out to get me for revenge like they might be you (occupational hazard) So allthough acutely aware of my suroundings, I don't have to be as "on point" as you mnight be (again, occupational hazard) |
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nolacopusmc Banned
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Oscarr wrote: I got a friend that prefers to CC (but still uses his OC right in some situations, like clothing that doesn't allow CC, etc) for the 'surprise element' too, he dosen't want to be a primary target for a bad guy. Perfectly logical. Just like your beliefs, experience and training lead you to your perceptions and tactical decisions, mine do also. I am admittedly biased by my LEO and military training. However, the reports, case studies, etc,. i have been exposed to, make me side with CC, but definitely not against OC. Like I said earlier. Some want 9mm because of more rounds, some want 45 because of bigger bullets. AT the end of the day, as long as we are both armed, I consider it a win. |
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nolacopusmc Banned
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CaptainDan wrote: Nola, I see your point and didn't intend to apply you were advocating the sneak attack, also I can see where for you CC is sometimes required. i undrstand where you are coming from, my only comment would be that I am highly SA also. Armed or not (though not is almost non-existent ). i do agree wholeheartedly, that people like you, who appears to be sane rational and non politically motivated. OCing does do a service that makes the average non-firearms proficient, aware, or neutral person more comfortable through acclimation. The problem is that some on here, I am noticing a small percentage, is either not mentally stable enough or so politically motivated, that their association with firearms creates a negative social image for gun owners. Glad that there are level headed people like you OCing to even out the stats. |
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Oscarr Regular Member
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nolacopusmc wrote: Oscarr wrote:I got a friend that prefers to CC (but still uses his OC right in some situations, like clothing that doesn't allow CC, etc) for the 'surprise element' too, he dosen't want to be a primary target for a bad guy. Yup, I agree - which is my main concern, getting a higher percentage of Americans armed, and just the THOUGHT that a majority of the people they come across is armed, will be a deterrent for criminals. As for the reports, case studies, etc you mention - are these reports of criminals shooting/attacking/etc OCers, or of them CLAIMING that they would be more likely to attack an OCer first? (i.e. are they just blowing smoke) I'd like to see some actual numbers, cases were a crime was being committed and an OCer was targeted first by a bad guy. Not doubting what you're saying, just looking for some hard numbers to back it all up with. |
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nolacopusmc Banned
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Oscarr wrote: nolacopusmc wrote:he stuff I have seen does not call out civilian OC specifically. There are so few documented cases, if any, that statistical analysis is impossible. We are forced to extrapolate similar, not he same, but similiar incidents where a gun was visible, IE LEO. That is the closest we have. Also bank guards, etc in bank robberies or other crimes were uniformed security of some type was visible.Oscarr wrote:I got a friend that prefers to CC (but still uses his OC right in some situations, like clothing that doesn't allow CC, etc) for the 'surprise element' too, he dosen't want to be a primary target for a bad guy. There are case studies of convicted criminals where they state that they had already decided they were going to shoot whomever resisted or had a weapon. they were also asked if they had seen anyone with a gun, they would shoot. It was in grad school, so i will try to dig them up. |
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Oscarr Regular Member
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I guess my next question would be, are there so few undocumented cases because it doesn't happen often, or is it just not recorded/categorized properly? You also can't be certain in those incidents that the LEO/guards were shot/attacked because of their gun being visible, and not because of their uniform being far more visible/making them stand out, and of course by virtue of the nature of their job (to stop the criminal) that made them a target. How often do you OC in plain clothes and so many people don't even notice the gun? Not trying to be argumentative, just offering some alternate ideas that it wasn't the OCing that was the primary factor.And I'm sure there are definitely criminals out there that, no matter what, go in with the intent to shoot someone, this is why we need more people armed, OC or CC, that I think we can all agree on. I just personally "feel" (again no facts, just my opinion) that most criminals, walking into a place where they plan to commit a crime, would more likely to be deterred by seeing multiple people carrying weapons. Now if all those people were CC'ing, and the criminal ASSUMED this was going to be easy and he decides to pull his gun and commit a robbery or whatever, it's much more likely that someone is going to get hurt or killed. I'd much rather there never be an incident to begin with, which goes back to why I OC and hope more people do it too. I guess that's a key point too, if it's just ONE person OCing, you may present yourself as more of a target, but if MANY people are OCing vs. CCing, hopefully nothing will happen at all, the criminal will be scared off, and no crime is ever committed or even attempted. Goes back to the whole "An armed society is a polite society." Last edited on Sun Jun 28th, 2009 09:16 pm by Oscarr |
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nolacopusmc Banned
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Oscarr wrote: I guess my next question would be, are there so few undocumented cases because it doesn't happen often, or is it just not recorded/categorized properly? You also can't be certain in those incidents that the LEO/guards were shot/attacked because of their gun being visible, and not because of their uniform being far more visible/making them stand out, and of course by virtue of the nature of their job (to stop the criminal) that made them a target. How often do you OC in plain clothes and so many people don't even notice the gun? |
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Oscarr Regular Member
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And therein lies the point, for me at least, to OC - because it's NOT the norm, and never will be if it doesn't start somewhere. Hopefully by some of us doing it, more will, and then more and then... you get the idea. And once everyone else sees how SAFE -and- gun carrying a state Louisiana is, more citizens will demand their states allow it. Until we're a country of a majority of people OCing. Even if OCing and being the only one in a room/business/whatever doing it can be argued to be a liability, I think the risk (personally) is worth the potential gains - to convince more people to do it, and thus remove that liability while simultaneously protecting people even more. At least, that's the dream. Edit: This feels like a good time to go ahead and bow out of this thread, I'm still new here and want to read some of the older posts (to get a feel for general feelings/ideas AND to help keep me from repeating already often asked questions). Was fun discussing it though! Last edited on Sun Jun 28th, 2009 09:42 pm by Oscarr |
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nolacopusmc Banned
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Oscarr wrote: And therein lies the point, for me at least, to OC - because it's NOT the norm, and never will be if it doesn't start somewhere. Hopefully by some of us doing it, more will, and then more and then... you get the idea. And once everyone else sees how SAFE -and- gun carrying a state Louisiana is, more citizens will demand their states allow it. Until we're a country of a majority of people OCing. Even if OCing and being the only one in a room/business/whatever doing it can be argued to be a liability, I think the risk (personally) is worth the potential gains - to convince more people to do it, and thus remove that liability while simultaneously protecting people even more. Til we meet again...... |
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XD-GEM Activist Member
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nolacopusmc wrote: The problem is that some on here, I am noticing a small percentage, is either not mentally stable enough or so politically motivated, that their association with firearms creates a negative social image for gun owners. I've been trying to tell you that for awhile. I'm glad you stuck around long enough to figure it out on your own instead of the hit and run insults that far too many have engaged in. |
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nolacopusmc Banned
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XD-GEM wrote: nolacopusmc wrote:The problem is that some on here, I am noticing a small percentage, is either not mentally stable enough or so politically motivated, that their association with firearms creates a negative social image for gun owners. Oh yeah, I knew that. the problem is that the minority is loud while the majority is quite. I guess that is because the minority by lack of membership has to loudly proclaim their stance, often outshines the quite majority. the problem is, the song that the loud minority is singing, is not a pleasant one. |
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