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OpenCarry.org - Discussion Forum > Stories From The States > Washington > Unlawful Detention by Mercer Island Police
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| OpenCarry.org - Discussion Forum > Stories From The States > Washington > Unlawful Detention by Mercer Island Police
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Washintonian_For_Liberty Regular Member 
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So, I went to Mercerdale Park with my daughter this evening and had a fairly uneventful time. My daughter played on the playground with several kids as I chatted with their parents. Both sets of parents didn't mind at all that I was open carrying and even commented that it was a wonderful thing for people to carry openly as it was a great deterrent for the lowlifes that usually come around and sit on the children's playground toys and houses. Well, after two uneventful hours at the park, I was wrapping up and getting ready to head back to my home when three police showed up. Two in one parking lot to the south of the park and one, who drove his SUV right out on to the grass right close to me. The first two come up to me and the bald very tan tattooed officer asked me if I had a weapon. The younger of the two stayed silent. I answered that I did on my right hip. He requested that I turn towards him to show him. I pivoted to my left slightly with my arms crossed on my chest so as to not warrant alarm. At this point, the third officer, Sgt. Noel showed up and asked to see my ID. This is when I asked if I was being detained. The first officer stated that I was. As I handed my ID to Sgt. Noel, I asked why I was being detained. This garnered a dirty look from all three police with Sgt. Noel responding "Because you are an unknown man with a gun who is a danger to everyone in the park." I answered "What I am doing here is perfectly legal." The Sgt replied "No it is not! In Mercer Island, you are not allowed to carry a weapon in the open!" The first officer who spoke to me (who had an exotic name I cannot remember), said to my side that only conceal carry with a license was legal and I was breaking the law. He then said from behind me "Sit down on the ground." So as to not cause my three year old daughter to panic if the police decided to jump me if I did not comply, I complied. The officer behind me then told me he was going to hand cuff me. I asked him if I was under arrest. Sgt Noel said "You are only being detained. We are hand cuffing you for officer safety. We can do this. We can do anything we want as long as we deem it necessary to officer safety." I repeated "Am I under arrest? And if I am, what is the charge?" The Sgt replied "You're not allowed to carry your gun like that, so we're going to look at the signs to see if it is prohibited here in the park, and if it is, you are going to have some serious trouble!" I then indicated to the OCDO pamphlet I had right on the ground on top of my wallet that all pertinent RCWs pertaining to open carry and State preemption of local ordinances that fall outside the allowable laws would be right there... The Sgt said "I have no intention of looking at that.. I don't care what the hell it says." So then, the Sgt and the younger officer who had just returned from walking around the park reading the signs, walked over to the SUV still parked on the grass not 15 feet from me and the big officer who cuffed me. The big officer behind me then said "Are you trying to make a point? We could arrest you for brandishing a weapon and then where would your daughter be?" I replied "Officer, while you may feel your concern is warranted, I have not brandished my weapon as that would require me holding it in my hand." To which he replied "Oh yes you did... and everyone in the park saw it." "Yeah, but I was not brandishing it and what I am doing is perfectly legal under Washington State law." After sitting on the ground for what seemed another ten minutes, the Sgt and the young officer came back over and said "Well we got nothin!" The officer standing behind me asked "So, can we arrest him?" To which the Sgt replied "We have nothing now. You have to let him go." The officer behind me then asked "Can I take his weapon and impound it?" The Sgt replied "No, we can't take his weapon, but take out the magazine and the gun before you take off the cuffs... officer safety you know" he finished saying while looking sternly at me. After the cuffs were off, the Sgt looked at me and said "Do you know you just wasted all of our time?" To which I replied "Well, you didn't need to waste your time. You could have just read this pamphlet or called dispatch to look up the law and find that I am well within my rights." Sgt Noel replied "I don't care what the law says! Every time we see you out here, we're going to come over and detain you in hand cuffs. Do you really want this kind of trouble?" I replied "I hope you realize that I will be suing the Mercer Island Police Department for unlawful detainment and harassment." The officer behind me said "Yeah, I understand, but if you just get a conceal carry permit, no one would know you were armed and we wouldn't care." Sgt Noel continued the train of thought by saying... it costs 50 bucks to get a conceal carry license. That's what we all do and we carry a weapon for a living. Like I said, I don't care what the law is. If you do this again. We will come in force and detain you in hand cuffs every single time... so for your sake, get the conceal carry license, conceal your weapon and you won't be bothered again. And with that, they left me with my empty gun, my empty magazine and a handful of bullets. I never gave them permission to take my gun or take the magazine out or dry fire it into the ground... they totally violated me... put the cuffs of extra tight and berated and threatened me with harassment every time they see me. So as it turns out, the Mercer Island police are not enlightened after all. Suggestions? I'm pretty pissed. I was totally calm and polite, but these guys were rude and in my face and continuously threatened me with constant detainment. |
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Metalhead47 Regular Member
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Dude, WTF?!?   I can't beleive a law enforcement officer would have the gall to say "I don't care what the law says!" I think you said it best yourself, get a good lawyer & sue the city. Maybe invite him to the same park to go over the paperwork while you're (of course) OCing, see if these officers are foolish enough to try that routine right in front of him as well. |
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Tawnos Regular Member
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My suggestions are: get a lawyer and sue. This goes beyond bull@#$%, as you *were* detained and deprived of your rights and property for the time of the unlawful detention. Plus, the officers have acted under color of law to attempt a further restriction upon your rights by saying you will be again detained for doing a legal activity. I think I might have to make a solo trip over there tomorrow. How are the jogging trails there? I might need to take a few hours to enjoy the nice weather we've been having, and downtown park is getting a little same-old same-old. |
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FrayedString Regular Member
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This makes me sad.  |
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swatspyder Regular Member 
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Pick up a good lawyer and let them know exactly what happened. I am sure they will want this case! Last edited on Tue Jun 30th, 2009 06:19 am by swatspyder |
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Washintonian_For_Liberty Regular Member
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Jogging trails are nice, and Mercerdale park (where I was detained) has a circular paved jogging track. I was thinking we need to have a picnic here on Mercer Island at Luther Burbank Park where they have barbecue pits perfect for great cook outs. Lets get everyone on board for this one. And, anyone got the number to a good lawyer? I was thinking of the NRA since they say, if you've had your rights violated, they'll defend you no charge... but for lawsuits... I'm not sure. I'll be calling them first thing tomorrow to find out for sure. |
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Washintonian_For_Liberty Regular Member
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I sure wish I had brought my voice recorder... but I do have a witness who I got the number from and he told me he would testify for me if I wanted... in fact, it was funny, afterwards, people came up to me asking me if I was ok, and when I told them that I had my rights violated and was threatened... they looked shocked... none of these people knew me personally, yet all seemed genuinely concerned over the behavior of the police. In fact, the witness said the young cop went around the park reading the signs and asking every person if they were the one who called... the person who called was not there. The last person who came up to me told me that I was rude for carrying my weapon and that he hoped that I had learned my lesson... I replied that I had learned that the police can be thugs on Mercer Island too, to which he said "Buddy... you're just an @#$%... and quickly walked away... the two people who were talking with me looked back at me with raised eyebrows and commented on what a jerk that guy was... I guess it takes all kinds of people. |
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Citizen Founder's Club Member
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Sorry to hear about the detention in front of your young daughter. Write down everything that happened. I am sure that if you go through it again in your mind, more will come back to you. Don't worry about getting the sequence right just yet. Just jot down the details as they come back to you. You can assemble them in order after you have them all down. I recommend this because I think as you remember, you will discover other little bits popping up that align and put other pieces into perspective. And some of those little bits will reinforce your complaint or close the door to police evasions. Trust me on this for the moment. I have a lot of practice on this forum looking at illegal detentions. A little fact here or a little fact there will confirm or dispel a conclusion, or close the door to police taking a certain evasive stance. Decide whether you want to sue. Talk to an attorney if you need to. I kinda suspect this is one of those situations where you might only recover the legal fees you put into it, but I am not an attorney. You might also consider having an attorney send your formal complaint. Maybe to cut down on the fees you can draft it, and he can convert it into a letter. If Washington has a sunshine law I would suggest immediately sending a Freedom of Information request for the 911 call recordings and radio traffic recordings. Include in-car text messages from the police cars, dash-cam recordings, and especially any reports written after the incident. At a minimum I would send a hard-hitting formal complaint that addressed every unlawful and inappropriate aspect of their behavior. It should include what you want done about it. I would especially nail the point about scaring your young daughter, if she was. This is just another example of 4th Amendment violation. Complete with LEO admission that "he doesn't care what the law says." You are out of their hands. Now its your turn. |
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Tawnos Regular Member
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Second Amendment Foundation is based right here in Bellevue. If I recall correctly, they maintain a list of lawyers that can help you. |
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Citizen Founder's Club Member
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Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote: SNIP I sure wish I had brought my voice recorder... but I do have a witness who I got the number from and he told me he would testify for me if I wanted... Its great that you had supportive witnesses. I'm betting Mr. Grumpy was the complaintant. Lesson learned. Always carry the voice-recorder. This is for other readers since I know you've probably already made that decision this evening. We have quite a few detentions and contacts where the OPer wrote, "I wish I had a voice-recorder." I cannot recall anyone saying even once, "Boy, I'm glad I left my voice-recorder at home." I put mine in my pocket as part of putting on my holster. Just make it part of your carry gear just like a spare magazine. |
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marshaul Activist Member 
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This is why voice recorders are FTW... "I don't care what the law says!" "Excuse me officer, could you say that again? Only, speak clearly and in the direction of my shirt pocket. I want to be extra sure the court enjoys the recording quality of you losing my lawsuit before it's even been filed." Last edited on Tue Jun 30th, 2009 07:09 am by marshaul |
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Washintonian_For_Liberty Regular Member
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You know what is nuts about this whole thing. I've checked the signs at the park and they are in line with State law and mention nothing about firearms. Sgt Noel also said "This is Mercer Island and a man with a gun is not normal. It is unusual and strange and we don't like unusual and strange. So we will respond to every call just like we're responding to this situation with you here today. You're really wasting our time and for what? So you can just try and prove a point? Are you just trying to show people you have a right? Because that can be construed as flaunting your weapon in front of these poor people and that IS a crime we can arrest you for!" He stated very clearly to me that he did not care what Washington State law says my rights are... that the Mercer Island Police Department will handle every call about me exactly this same way. One of them also said that they might even arrest me for disturbing the peace if I did it again and all they needed was one complaint from someone saying I was alarming them. Last edited on Tue Jun 30th, 2009 07:16 am by Washintonian_For_Liberty |
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Washintonian_For_Liberty Regular Member
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I don't know if this means anything, but I asked Sgt Noel and the muscled tattooed officer both for their card and they both ignored me. Sgt Noel looked at me after I asked him for his card and I could see the scorn in his eyes.... he just walked away and neither gave me a card. I thought that the police had to give you their name card by law?? Anyway, asking twice and twice being completely ignored was very odd... I've asked police for their cards before and they always gave one to me... of course, I was not packing at the time. |
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Tawnos Regular Member
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Go to the police department tomorrow. Fill out a request for public information. That will give you the full names of all responding officers, and, potentially, the name and phone number of the person who made the 911 call. At court, this information can be used by your lawyer, as the person can be called to stand witness. |
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sv_libertarian State Researcher 
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Well this sucks. Formal complaint, etc... Get a high ranking officer there and show them the King County Sheriff training bulletin. Then try to get some answers out of them. If all else fails, 20-30 OC'rs having a picnic would be a good thing. |
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sv_libertarian State Researcher
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Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote: I don't know if this means anything, but I asked Sgt Noel and the muscled tattooed officer both for their card and they both ignored me. Sgt Noel looked at me after I asked him for his card and I could see the scorn in his eyes.... he just walked away and neither gave me a card. I thought that the police had to give you their name card by law?? Anyway, asking twice and twice being completely ignored was very odd... I've asked police for their cards before and they always gave one to me... of course, I was not packing at the time.They just have to identify themselves, no requirement to give a card. |
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Washintonian_For_Liberty Regular Member
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sv_libertarian wrote: Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:I don't know if this means anything, but I asked Sgt Noel and the muscled tattooed officer both for their card and they both ignored me. Sgt Noel looked at me after I asked him for his card and I could see the scorn in his eyes.... he just walked away and neither gave me a card. I thought that the police had to give you their name card by law?? Anyway, asking twice and twice being completely ignored was very odd... I've asked police for their cards before and they always gave one to me... of course, I was not packing at the time.They just have to identify themselves, no requirement to give a card. Ah, thanks for the clarification. So I was thinking... anyone planning on attending any 4th of July Tea Party Protests? Because I'm going to try and get as many people to come to Mercer Island next Saturday to Mercerdale Park and for a nice protest speech on Liberty and the sanctity of our Constitutional rights. I'm putting out a quick call to all my buds in the Campaign for Liberty... if anyone knows any people that would like to speak on Sat for an impromptu gathering... that would be great. |
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sv_libertarian State Researcher
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Hmmm it seems the officers you encountered may not have taken the time to read the Mercer Island Police Department webpage. http://www.mercergov.org/SectionIndex.asp?SectionID=84 The Mercer Island Police Department strives to provide a full range of police services while respecting individual rights and freedoms. We are professional, compassionate, highly-trained, technologically-advanced, and provide services that meet or exceed the expectations of our community. Just curious, why bother having a speaker at a picnic? For one thing cops won't care, and you'll be preaching to the choir, and the likelyhood of finding someone who won't be written off as a fringe kook is slim IMHO. Plus it could be portrayed as rabble rousing by the highly trained and professional MIPD. Also you run the risk of limiting your potential audience by bringing in a speaker unless most everyone agrees with the person. Honestly I would be inclined not to come to a function organized by you with a speaker. We've clashed enough on politics so there is no need to go further, but I know I'm not the only one here who would get turned off by a politicized OC picnic. Just some thoughts. |
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sv_libertarian State Researcher
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Hmmm MIPD Chief Holmes seems to have the right idea in his message on the MIPD website... http://www.mercergov.org/Page.asp?NavID=2116 Mercer Island does have one of the lowest crime rates in our area, however, as citizens you should take all the necessary precautions to protect your family and your property. I urge each of you to take those steps necessary to secure your home and property. Prepare your family to survive on their own for at least the first 72 hours following a large scale disaster or emergency. Interesting his picture does not show him in uniform. Must not be proud of it. Here is his phone number in case anyone feels the need to call him. 206 275-7911 Last edited on Tue Jun 30th, 2009 08:53 am by sv_libertarian |
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Washintonian_For_Liberty Regular Member
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sv_libertarian wrote: Hmmm it seems the officers you encountered may not have taken the time to read the Mercer Island Police Department webpage. You misunderstand... the OC picnic would not happen in five days.... that would just be a Tea Party/Liberty Protest... The Picnic would take longer to plan and would only be a picnic... food, pop, light chat about the weather and your favorite gun... but no politics. I figured that people wouldn't have time to get ready for a 4th of July picnic at such short notice since they may have other plans... but a Liberty/Tea Party style protest gathering on Independence Day talking about Liberty and Freedom and our Constitutional rights would be appropriate for what the day stands for. |
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sv_libertarian State Researcher
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City of Mercer Island Code for assemblies in parks. If you bring a formal speaker along, they may try to pull this on you. 9.30.220 the director is ordered to establish forthwith such rules and regulations pertaining to the issuance of assembly permits as shall permit the fullest peaceful utilization of the parks by all the general public including such persons attending such assemblies and such other persons utilizing the park, but not in attendance at such assembly as shall be reasonably possible and consistent with the health, safety and general welfare. In this connection, and in addition to the conduct requirements of this chapter, such rules and regulations may require the deposit of “cleanup” undertakings, the furnishing of waste and sanitary conveniences and effective plans for traffic and crowd control and management. (Ord. A-91 § 1, 1991). |
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sv_libertarian State Researcher
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Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote: You misunderstand... the OC picnic would not happen in five days.... that would just be a Tea Party/Liberty Protest...There is one going down at the Capitol Campus in Olympia on the 4th. |
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Washintonian_For_Liberty Regular Member
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sv_libertarian wrote: City of Mercer Island Code for assemblies in parks. If you bring a formal speaker along, they may try to pull this on you. Yeah I saw that... the Campaign for Liberty may have the funds to make that possible... and if we apply, and pay the clean up fee... I believe they cannot refuse since it is a matter of Free Speech and Freedom of Assembly. |
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sv_libertarian State Researcher
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I'm guessing a simple picnic won't be an issue. |
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Batousaii Regular Member 
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I am really sorry to hear about this event, absolutely shameful disgrace to the LEO community. These officers should be released from duty (fired) and made to serve some community service. Yeah, i am totally in favor of a picnic there, if they stormed it, might be cause for a civil suit as a group... I kinda agree about no speaker, might be awkward, but a good old fashioned picknick, cool. -- Something really needs to be done about the rogue cops -- they are not LEOs. Maybe the state should be sued to pay for each and every officer to take a "sensitivity class" ... lol ... yummm... But seriously, i have encountered a few zealous officers that were way way way out of line for the situation, and i wasnt even OC. The courts need to start to treat officers as "human" too, with stout consequences for overstepping or breaching peoples rights and liberties. They are not, or should not be above reproach, or above the law. a good LEO balances the spirit of the law with the letter of the law, and remembers that he represents his community and his office's image with his individual actions. A LEO in and of him/herself is not the law, but supposed to be a courier of the law... i am usually very pro-LEO .. but i absolutely think they should be held to an extreme amount of accountability. Bat. Last edited on Tue Jun 30th, 2009 09:57 am by Batousaii |
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Washintonian_For_Liberty Regular Member
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Don't get me wrong... I am very pro LEO... I'm just anti THUG... |
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Batousaii Regular Member
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Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote: Don't get me wrong... I am very pro LEO... I'm just anti THUG... 100% Agree ... and dealt with my share of thug officers... they need to be accountable, or should be. it's a sad story indeed. ya know there are a few on here who have had similarly bad experiences recently, might look into some sort of joint lawsuit against the state. maybe get a certain RCW repealed or reworded for better clarity now that the black panthers are gone. Bat |
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Unreconstructed Confederate Polymath Regular Member
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Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote: Don't get me wrong... I am very pro LEO... I'm just anti THUG...It takes three encounters for some few to be convinced. |
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No1 Banned
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thass one evil live thro two well said no1 |
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Tawnos Regular Member
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sv_libertarian wrote: City of Mercer Island Code for assemblies in parks. If you bring a formal speaker along, they may try to pull this on you. I'd be surprised if this or 9.30.110 is constitutional under the WA state constitution Article 1 Section 4 . SECTION 4 RIGHT OF PETITION AND ASSEMBLAGE. The right of petition and of the people peaceably to assemble for the common good shall never be abridged. I would not mind being a test case for that, as I think the idea of an assembly permit is abhorrent to the Constitution, both state and federal. |
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Citizen Founder's Club Member
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Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote: SNIP Sgt Noel also said "This is Mercer Island and a man with a gun is not normal. It is unusual and strange and we don't like unusual and strange. So we will respond to every call just like we're responding to this situation with you here today. Nothing in 4th Amendment court opinions permit Terry Stops for:
A second major argument advanced by Florida and the United States as amicus is, in essence, that the standard Terry analysis should be modified to license a "firearm exception." Under such an exception, a tip alleging an illegal gun would justify a stop and frisk even if the accusation would fail standard pre-search reliability testing. We decline to adopt this position. (emphasis added) |
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Magix Regular Member
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I'm very sorry to hear about your story. Especially since it happened in front of your daughter. I hope you go to the Mercer Island PD office and make a formal complaint against those officers. Also, show them the KC training bulletin. It's completely unacceptable to treat law abiding citizens like that. Thank you for sharing this story. If there is a picnic at that park, I will definitely try to be there. |
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5jeffro7 Regular Member 
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gentlemen: it is this precise type of contact that we work hard to prevent. For this reason, I strongly feel that it is imperative to have an emergency meeting at this particular park ASAP. Tawnos and I are working on getting together this evening in the park...I think the statement we're trying to make would be bigger & stronger if there were more of us to make the statement...I'd also like to see someone, probably not OCing to videotape the event in the likelihood that MIPD shows up. on a side note, I left a message for the chief asking him, in light of the statement about citizens taking the necessary precautions to protect themselves and the statement about respecting an individual's rights and freedoms, how he could justify Sgt. Noel's violation of a citizens constitutional rights's as well as his civil rights under 18 USC 142...we'll see if he calls me back  Last edited on Tue Jun 30th, 2009 05:31 pm by 5jeffro7 |
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Flanders007 Regular Member 
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I'm all for a picnic at MI. I missed the one in Bellevue (how was it anyway?). If it's on the 4th, I can't make it, but maybe the weekend afterward? Let's get a solid date set! |
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Tawnos Regular Member
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Flanders007 wrote: I'm all for a picnic at MI. I missed the one in Bellevue (how was it anyway?). I was just going to go jogging there, tonight. No picnic, food, or anything. I'm just getting my exercise at the park. The weather's been great, and my knee is bugging me too much today to do high intensity interval training like I usually do on Tuesday/Thursday (probably just agitated it walking to Kirkland and back on Sunday). Show up if you want, I doubt there will be any issue, because my guess is their lawyer and or commanding officers will be reading the forum and alerting them to the illegality of their behavior. |
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Magix Regular Member
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I just wrote a polite email to the MIPD asking for their officialy policy for their officers to follow regarding open carry. It'll be handy to print out when I go there for lunch this weekend while OC. |
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5jeffro7 Regular Member
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I just got off the phone with the Police Chief & his main concern, without going through all the details was that people sometimes get scared when they see someone with a gun. I cited Casad & he was extremely interested in that aspect of it. I've emailed him the training bulletins & a link for not only Casad, but a link to the article in the most recent Police chief magazine. the best part of the conversation was when he told me that Sgt. Noel was what he liked to refer to as "Mr. Gun" as he's probably the most pro-gun person the chief knows & that he (Sgt.Noel) is as big of gun enthusiast as anyone can be. if that's the case, & he's the most "pro-gun" then gentlemen, we're in big trouble the chief was very receptive to my concerns about rights violations and was definitely going to look into the incident. I'm not suggesting that no legal action be taken, quite the opposite, but the chief is willing to learn, and that's a positive step. he did mention that when his training officer gets back next Tuesday, he's going to talk to him additional training object & if a training bulletin is issued, he will forward a copy to me Last edited on Tue Jun 30th, 2009 06:17 pm by 5jeffro7 |
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Triple Tap Regular Member 
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5jeffro7 wrote: I just got off the phone with the Police Chief & his main concern, without going through all the details was that people sometimes get scared when they see someone with a gun. I cited Casad & he was extremely interested in that aspect of it. I've emailed him the training bulletins & a link for not only Casad, but a link to the article in the most recent Police chief magazine. Did you forward him the King County Training bulletin for his review? Maybe it would help to show him how dumb his own officers where being. |
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Citizen Founder's Club Member
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5jeffro7 wrote: SNIP the best part of the conversation was when he told me that Sgt. Noel was what he liked to refer to as "Mr. Gun" as he's probably the most pro-gun person the chief knows & that he (Sgt.Noel) is as big of gun enthusiast as anyone can be. if that's the case, & he's the most "pro-gun" then gentlemen, we're in big trouble (Not picking on 5Jeffro7. Just using his post to introduce my point.) Fellas, I can't stress this enough. This encounter is not a 2A issue. It is a 4th Amendment issue. It doesn't matter in the least that Sgt "No"el is pro-gun. The 2nd Amendment has little bearing on the matter. For the chief to even mention the cop's attitude towards 2A is a red-herring. The problem is police officers who pounced and violated 4A because of personal antipathy. Focus on, and beat the stuffing out of the 4A violation. We all know very well that if the cops were willing to violate 4A in this incident, they're willing to do it to people whose percieved "violation of the way things are on Mercer Island" does not involve a gun. Also, OC and pre-emption have been plastered all over the police grape vine for over a year, starting perhaps with Lt. Wilson and the Olympia detentions about a year ago. There is almost no way the Mercer Island thugs could not know OC is legal. And, even if, by some amazing stretch, they did not know OC was legal, it would not matter. Police don't have to know OC is legal to not violate rights. All they have to know is that they don't know it is illegal. Unless a cop knows to a dead moral certainty that an activity is illegal, he has no business doing anything except a consensual encounter.* *There are other elements that come into play in a Terry Stop, so don't take that statement literally. But it seems to apply in the OP situation for now. Unless the 911 call recording alleges suspicious behavior of a crime, etc. Last edited on Tue Jun 30th, 2009 08:10 pm by Citizen |
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blight Regular Member
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a formal complaint and a lawsuit are the best way to prevent this type of thing from happening again. should we create a $ fund to support such an effort? -blight |
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sv_libertarian State Researcher
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People, keep in mind Casad is an unpublished opinion and does not carry any legal precedence. It's useless to cite it. I don't care what excuses are made to keep bringing it up, but it carries no weight. |
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5jeffro7 Regular Member
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sv_libertarian wrote: People, keep in mind Casad is an unpublished opinion and does not carry any legal precedence. It's useless to cite it. I don't care what excuses are made to keep bringing it up, but it carries no weight. While I agree that it would be useless to try to cite it in any type of legal case, in some cases (very much so in this instance), it can be used as a learning tool for LE. in this very case, the chief was going off the "people get scared" garbage, but after doing his own research (including Casad), he has admitted that he needs to do some additional training, not only for his officers, but working with dispatchers as well. if citing Casad can open up peoples minds to where they are better informed, then I don't have a problem with doing so. Last edited on Tue Jun 30th, 2009 11:06 pm by 5jeffro7 |
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kwiebe Regular Member 
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To me, this case just boils down to ignorance or laziness (or both) with respect to 9.41.270. |
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sv_libertarian State Researcher
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My guess it had never been an issue before on Mercer Island, and we have no idea what kind of background the cops had with armed citizens (for all we know, both cops were Kalifornia or New York transplants) This boils to down to a Training Fail on the part of MIPD. Hopefully Chief Holmes actually will give training to his officers and dispatch on this matter. |
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Citizen Founder's Club Member
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sv_libertarian wrote: My guess it had never been an issue before on Mercer Island, and we have no idea what kind of background the cops had with armed citizens (for all we know, both cops were Kalifornia or New York transplants) No offense, Lib. But the police need zero training or backround on armed citizens to understand that unless they know with complete certainty that the activity is illegal they have no 4A justification or exception for a warrantless seizure, in this case a full-blown Terry Stop. Additional circumstances that might give rise to RAS excepted, of course. This is not an armed-citizen issue. This is a police-ignored-the-4th-Amendment issue. Last edited on Tue Jun 30th, 2009 11:43 pm by Citizen |
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sv_libertarian State Researcher
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I just emailed the MIPD and told them that until they stopped violating 4th amendment rights I will not be shopping there or spending any money on MI until I get assurance that they have changed their ways. It's a toss up on if they will care or not. Enclaves like Mercer Island often seem to think they are above the law, and tend to use cops more to keep whatever is deemed "undesirable" away, and hire officers with that in mind. It's more important to do things the "Mercer Island way" than actually follow the law. Makes me glad I live in Olympia... the cops here are responsive and the admin professional. |
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kparker Regular Member
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I'll second sv_lib's statement about the Oly police. I haven't had much experience with them, but what I've had has been a good mix of professional + small-town friendly. |
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Misguided Child Regular Member
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Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:
W_F_L, This sounds like you agreed with the officer that everyone in the park saw you with your gun in your hand. What was he refering to? |
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Citizen Founder's Club Member
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Misguided Child wrote: Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote: The "yeah" goes with "everyone saw it." He had already said that he was not holding it in his hand. This is a good example of why you don't talk to police if you don't have to. And you feel you have to (for example your toddler is with you), you choose your words carefully. I am more interested in the cop using the daughter as leverage to intimidate. Totally, completely, utterly disgusting. Last edited on Wed Jul 1st, 2009 01:32 am by Citizen |
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44Brent Regular Member
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Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote: Sgt Noel replied "I don't care what the law says! Every time we see you out here, we're going to come over and detain you in hand cuffs. Do you really want this kind of trouble?" That makes two of you who don't care what the law is. If I recall, you are the person who thought that the man who shot his dog and left it to die should be charged only be charged with "littering". |
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Citizen Founder's Club Member
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44Brent wrote: Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:Sgt Noel replied "I don't care what the law says! Every time we see you out here, we're going to come over and detain you in hand cuffs. Do you really want this kind of trouble?" Lets work on the police before we work on each other. |
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Metalhead47 Regular Member
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Citizen wrote: 44Brent wrote:Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:Sgt Noel replied "I don't care what the law says! Every time we see you out here, we're going to come over and detain you in hand cuffs. Do you really want this kind of trouble?" +1. That whole dog thing became a theoretical discussion, what ought to be. This is very very real and has us ALL thoroughly disgusted. Leave the other thread to its self. |
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heresolong Regular Member 
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Something else I have not seen posted here, I have just spent some time in the Mercer Island municipal code and can find no reference to any ban on firearms, either in the city or in the parks. |
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Citizen Founder's Club Member
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heresolong wrote: Something else I have not seen posted here, I have just spent some time in the Mercer Island municipal code and can find no reference to any ban on firearms, either in the city or in the parks. Heh, heh, heh. The pieces drop into place. |
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Misguided Child Regular Member
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Citizen, I didn't ask you a question and I have no use for commentary from someone who thinks he can read minds from across the country. |
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Citizen Founder's Club Member
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Misguided Child wrote: Citizen, I was working on what I thought was obvious inference. As in, I inferred he could not have been agreeing with people seeing him brandishing since he had just disclaimed it in the earlier sentence. Not to insult, but it seems to me that it yields an absurd result otherwise. Not sure what you are upset about. I'm willing to clear it up and be on good terms if you are. Last edited on Wed Jul 1st, 2009 05:45 am by Citizen |
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ghosthunter Regular Member 
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Do any of you see any value in everybody on this site emailing Mercer PD? With attachments of the laws. Since we are so spread out. Seems like it would get them talking about Open Carry. |
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blowfish852252000 Regular Member 
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maybe the doughnut shop was closed and they had nothing better to do, so they had to take out there frustration on perfectly good americans who know there rights |
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Magister Regular Member
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I still think a picnic or meet up would be best. I can only imagine "Mr. Pro-gun Noel's" head exploding at the sight of so many plain old citizens enjoying their rights. Everybody knows the police should be the only ones with firearms, right?! Because they are -SO- well trained... |
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Boo Boo Regular Member 
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you also forget mercer island are full of the rich. they get scared if a minority gets seen on the island. they expect to get pampered. there are alot of bullies in departments. if they don't have a IA department they feel they can get away with anything. |
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compmanio365 Regular Member 
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Boo Boo wrote: you also forget mercer island are full of the rich. they get scared if a minority gets seen on the island. they expect to get pampered. +1000, this is why we have had so many issues with "nice" parts of town, like the north end of Tacoma (Ruston Way, etc)....if you want to carry a gun in the ghetto, great, but you better not frighten the rich people that donate to the police department with your outrageous open carry.  |
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sudden valley gunner Regular Member 
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Sorry to read this, their action were dispicable. I think if it is illegal to lie to the police that it should be vice versa. I wish I was closer I would be hanging out in the park today, reading my book going about my own business. They forced your cooperation and as Citizen brought out this violates the 4th, the offending officers need to learn their lesson. Oh not only California or New York cops but we have a lot of transplants from Hawaii and they are worse than California when it comes to guns. Plus there is a very different relationship between the police and citizens there the laws are "flexible" sometimes. |
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Citizen Founder's Club Member
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Citizen wrote: Misguided Child wrote:Citizen, Forum, Excuse me just a moment, folks. We have someone insisting on trouble. Despite my offer, just above, to clear up any misunderstanding and be on good terms with Mis-Child, he sent me an antagonistic PM. Let no one misunderstand. If you send me an antagonistic PM, I will immediately make it public. All others I would keep in confidence. I consider I am under no obligation to keep the confidence of someone who is attacking me. Here it is: _____Original Message_____ From: Misguided Child Date: 2009-07-01 03:20:54 Subject: illegally detained, mercer island I think it likely that he did have his hand on his gun, perhaps even took it out to show someone. But, I want HIS answer, not what you inferred, not what you 2nd guess from 3000 miles away and not the words you put in his mouth with your pointless interfering post. Misguided Child, That's the problem with internet forums. Anyone can comment, any time. Its allowed. Its expected. Whether they are a certified mind-reader or not. But you got me on the mind-reader part. I can't even read my boss's mind across the hall. My offer to clear things up and be on good terms still stands. Lets clear it up and get back to focusing on the police violation of 4A, not each other. Last edited on Wed Jul 1st, 2009 04:46 pm by Citizen |
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Washintonian_For_Liberty Regular Member
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Thank you all for the support and assistance in this matter. My cooperation was forced by my fear that they might arrest me for "resisting" or anything else they could trump up since they were already so antagonistic. It was only my daughter and me in the park and they would have had to take her to the police station as well if they had arrested me. Now I didn't know if they'd find some reason to arrest me, so I was as cautious as possible. As for my admission that people saw me... its a very small park, and I was right in the middle watching my daughter chase a dog and play with other kids. I was following her and making sure that she didn't run into the road or anything. I was a little taken aback at the officer's behavior and I had the pamphlet right there which had all pertinent laws inside it... which of course they refused to even consider looking at. Admitting to obeying the law isn't a crime is it? Anyhoo... the 4th of July gathering would be an early to mid afternoon Tea Party protest and not the "official" OCDO Mercer Island Picnic which I suggest we have at Luther Burbank Park which has places for us to barbecue. All we need now is a time. Saturday or Sunday? July 11th Sat July 12th Sun July 25th Sat July 26th Sun August 1st Sat August 2nd Sun August 8th Sat August 9th Sun Everyone should pick the date that best works for them... whichever date gets the most picks will be the date for the Mercer Island Luther Burbank Open Carry Picnic. Now, of course, Aug 1-2 is Sea Fair... so that might not be great for a picnic since many might choose to be on the log boom or otherwise spend time with family watching the Blue Angels or something... on the other hand, Luther Burbank will have many flyovers... just no acrobatics. |
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sv_libertarian State Researcher
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So have you heard anything back from MIPD? At the very least I hope you called the Chief's office and had a loooong talk with the man. I know a couple of other people here already have. |
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Washintonian_For_Liberty Regular Member
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sv_libertarian wrote: So have you heard anything back from MIPD? At the very least I hope you called the Chief's office and had a loooong talk with the man. I know a couple of other people here already have. I've now left two messages. One early yesterday and another this morning. I don't know how someone got through to him yesterday... but I was a little busy during the middle of the day with my wife, mother-in-law and daughter at an all day lunch & coffee with friends and family... and I had to speak Chinese (mandarin) the whole time, so by the end of the afternoon, my brain hurt. I've filed a complaint on-line, and I will take a formal letter in when I go in and get the 911 transcript and the dispatcher's log.... apparently, the officers did not write up an incident report... or the people I talk with are not aware of it. I'll get that worked out however. |
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New Daddy Regular Member 
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Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote: sv_libertarian wrote:So have you heard anything back from MIPD? At the very least I hope you called the Chief's office and had a loooong talk with the man. I know a couple of other people here already have. You might want to file an official FOIA request asking for the report. I know Seattle has paid some hefty settlements over not complying with the FOIA. If you would sue, they'd set themselves up if they pulled a written report during discovery. |
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ChuckUFarley Regular Member 
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I would sue, and i would also get a restraining order aginst that ass hat of a cop who said he didint care what the law was, too bad you didnt have it on voice recorder. |
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Phssthpok Regular Member
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I wonder if the 911 system docments the number for the incoming call. I presume it would in one form or another. The question then becomes, can one obtain that information in a 911 records request? |
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ChuckUFarley Regular Member
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Phssthpok wrote:
and if so could you get them for filing a false police report. |
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Washintonian_For_Liberty Regular Member
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Ed Holmes Police Chief Mercer Island Police Department 9611 SE 36th Street Mercer Island, WA 98040 Dear Chief Holmes: I am a two year resident of our fine city, and I am writing to express my concern and dismay about a recent incident involving three of your officers, and in particular, a Sergeant Noel. I was confronted by the three officers in Mercerdale Park on June 29th and was the victim of callous and rude behavior, not to mention, unlawfully detained and property seized because of a complete disregard or ignorance of Washington State laws pertaining to the carrying of firearms. Because Washington is an "open carry" state for firearms (RCW 9.41.050), I was doing nothing to warrant the type of treatment I received from your officers. The fact that Washington is an “open carry” State for firearms means a person may carry a firearm in an exposed holster without any kind of permit unless there is something that makes it specifically illegal. For example, carrying a weapon onto primary or secondary school grounds for any other reason besides dropping off or picking up that person’s child, or other prohibited places that do not violate the State’s laws per the State Preemption (RCW 9.41.290) which says that local laws may not exceed the requirements of State law and if they do, they shall not be enacted and are preempted. For your reference, unlawful carrying is explained in (RCW 9.41.270). The RCW is specifically meant to address situations that are more than just walking around with an exposed firearm. Time after time in many municipalities surrounding Mercer Island, this protected right has been enforced and officer training has been held to inform and educate local police officers about the legality of open carry. The unfortunate incident occurred as I was enjoying the evening with some new friends watching our children play together in the park with some dogs and a Frisbee. It was towards the end of my outing that the officers approached me. I was very polite and agreeable with them in terms of my demeanor, while they were immediately hostile and rude. I did not allow their rude behavior to provoke any similar reaction from myself and I remained polite and composed throughout the entire unfortunate incident. Your officers then proceeded to unlawfully detain me and handcuff me in and make me sit on the ground while my 3 year old daughter watched from 15 feet away. They also relieved me of my firearm without my permission and removed the magazine and the bullets from it and then dry fired it into the ground with the muzzle placed on the ground. I found this to be an egregious violation of my Fourth Amendment Constitutionally protected right to be to be secure in my person, house, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, which shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. I was 100% within the law and therefore there was no probable cause to warrant the detention and unlawful seizure of my property that I was subjected to on the grass at Mercerdale Park. Ignorance of the law is no rationale or excuse for such an obvious breach of the law by an officer sworn to uphold the law. What was more troubling was that Sergeant Noel stated that he did not care what Washington State law was, and that he would come out and detain me in the same way every time he either got a call from a concerned citizen or saw me open carrying. These threats are also a violation of my rights and can be considered harassment in the eyes of the law. While I am upset and angered by the treatment I received and for the obvious violation of my rights, I only wish for all harassment to stop and for your officers to be made to take training pertaining to the lawful carrying of firearms as well as some sensitivity training as their rude and aggressive behavior was particularly disturbing. I have written down the entire incident and submitted by Internet based complaint form and have informed an attorney of my wish to pursue further options if this type of treatment continues. It is my hope that we can work together to avoid any further incidents of this nature take place in Mercer Island. It is my belief that all person’s rights must be respected, no matter if they are agreed with or not. I am looking forward to your response. Sincerely, John McClure ____________________________________________________________________ Ok guys, I appreciate the concern and your desire to see a lawsuit to teach the bad LEOs a lesson, but I have to live here and this community is my home. I will pursue a lawsuit if it happens again and I have a lawyer who said that we will very likely win as I have documented the incident that has happened quite well. I am also going to be carrying an MP3 voice recorder with me at all times now, so any further harassment will be caught on the recorder. It hangs around my neck and is attached to earphones so it is not in a pocket and will pick up every word spoken... this recorder is really good. The letter above is what I will bring with me to the police station when I pick up the other information and hopefully have a sit down with the chief of police. You can help me to reword some sections you think might be better. I want to indicate the RCWs, but use my own words to complain. I figure he'll get plenty of legal documents and training bulletins from you guys. |
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deanf Regular Member 
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and if so could you get them for filing a false police report. (sic) Probably not, unless you could prove that the caller lied about what happened. RCW 9A.84.040 There are several elements of the crime of false reporting that need to be satisfied, few of which probably were in this situation. |
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New Daddy Regular Member
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On the letter - I'd delete the entire recite of the 4th amendment. When I read it, I kept waiting for the punch line. Instead, I'd suggest this:I found this to be an egregious violation of my constitutionally protected Fourth Amendment right to be to be secure in my person against unreasonable searches and seizures. underlining/bolding denotes additional edits. |
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Ajetpilot Regular Member 
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Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote: What was more troubling was that Sergeant Noel stated that he did not care what Washington State law was, and that he would come out and detain me in the same way every time he either got a call from a concerned citizen or saw me open carrying. These threats are also a violation of my rights and can be considered harassment in the eyes of the law. Also coercion, RCW 9A36.070: "(1) A person is guilty of coercion if by use of a threat he compels or induces a person to engage in conduct which the latter has a legal right to abstain from, or to abstain from conduct which he has a legal right to engage in." IAW RCW 9A.04.110 para (27) c: "Threat" means to communicate, directly or indirectly the intent to subject the person threatened or any other person to physical confinement or restraint. |
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Washintonian_For_Liberty Regular Member
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So the police chief just called me and apologized profusely for the violation of my rights and stated that he has given all the information he has received including the training bulletin to all his officers and dispatchers and has directed the training officer to create his own bulletin for Mercer Island and hold training for all officers and dispatchers in the town. He also said that he understands this is a constitutionally protected right and he wants to make sure everyone's constitutional rights are protected by his police force. He said he expects that every time I go out, he'll get a bunch of frantic calls from concerned citizens, but that he hopes that his dispatchers will handle the calls professionally and calm the callers down by explaining how open carry is completely legal. He said they'd still have to send an officer, but that they would instruct them to only observe rather than confront. |
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Right Wing Wacko Campaign Veteran 
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Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote: He said he expects that every time I go out, he'll get a bunch of frantic calls from concerned citizens, but that he hopes that his dispatchers will handle the calls professionally and calm the callers down by explaining how open carry is completely legal. He said they'd still have to send an officer, but that they would instruct them to only observe rather than confront. This is good! |
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jarhead1055 Regular Member 
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Yup i say we need a OC event at that park, i am all for making a fool of a few idiot officers. |
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New Daddy Regular Member
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Congratulations! |
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FrayedString Regular Member
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Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:So the police chief just called me and apologized profusely for the violation of my rights and stated that he has given all the information he has received including the training bulletin to all his officers and dispatchers and has directed the training officer to create his own bulletin for Mercer Island and hold training for all officers and dispatchers in the town. This makes me happy.  |
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Washintonian_For_Liberty Regular Member
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Also, thanks to those of you who called or emailed the Chief as he volunteered that he had received some calls and emails and all were very informative and polite. You guys rock! Last edited on Wed Jul 1st, 2009 11:08 pm by Washintonian_For_Liberty |
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911Boss Regular Member 
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Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote: He said he expects that every time I go out, he'll get a bunch of frantic calls from concerned citizens, but that he hopes that his dispatchers will handle the calls professionally and calm the callers down by explaining how open carry is completely legal. He said they'd still have to send an officer, but that they would instruct them to only observe rather than confront. While I am glad he made this acknowledgment, I would reserve the right to actually see a change before accepting it. Did he say how many calls they received in this incident? My guess is ONE. If they received ONE this time, what is his rationale for expecting multiple calls in the future? As a side note, MIPD doesn't HAVE any dispatchers. They have contracted with Kirkland PD for dispatch services for the past several years. As of today, July 1, their 9-1-1 calls are received and dispatch services provided by NORCOM which is a combined dispatch center serving most of the eastside cities. These are the same folks who handle Bellevue and they seem to understand things so I am guessing that the call receivers already know what is what. Granted there was a recent Bellevue issue as well, but that comes back to how the cops react when they respond. I get pretty tired of us 9-1-1 folks getting thrown under the bus by the "Have-badges" folks when they are called out on the behavior of one of their fellow officers. If those cops rolled up without lights, sirens, and screeching tires, you can count on the fact that they were given a basic "Suspicious Person" or "Area Check" type detail with nothing to suggest brandishing or waving a gun around. We dispatch folk don't decide how the cops respond or what they do when they get there. That is on them, it is just so convenient to try and shift blame or responsibility to someone who isn't available to defend themself. Did he have a repsonse or express any concern on the "I don't care" remark? That is a hell of an example for a Sgt. to provide. Regardless of everything else, if that is what he said (and if I was chief I would damn sure be having a conversation with him and the other two stooges) He would be back to the bottom of the ladder, walking a foot beat on the graveyard shift. Absolutley unacceptable for anyone with a badge to have that attitude, let alone share it with those they come across. |
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911Boss Regular Member
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PS- Make the picnic on Sun 7/5, 7/19, 7/26, 8/9 or 8/16 I will be glad to attend and even "show off" by dual-wielding a couple of mid-size Glocks sporting 33 round magazines. Last edited on Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 01:48 am by 911Boss |
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Vandal Regular Member
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I think Ya'll should invite the Chief! If he shows, then you will be golden. |
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deanf Regular Member
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i am all for making a fool of a few idiot officers. That's not why we are here, and it won't do our cause any good. You won't have my support, but go ahead and do so if it makes you feel better. |
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Citizen Founder's Club Member
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Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote: So the police chief just called me and apologized profusely for the violation of my rights and stated that he has given all the information he has received including the training bulletin to all his officers and dispatchers and has directed the training officer to create his own bulletin for Mercer Island and hold training for all officers and dispatchers in the town. Very good. May I suggest sending him a follow up letter thanking him for his phone call, his intention to train the LEOs, etc. It documents that the call occurred. Also, you might carry ahead with that FOIA request. These will encourage the police to follow through since they know you are documenting things, laying the groundwork for harsher measures if the chief's promises and concern were empty. |
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Washintonian_For_Liberty Regular Member
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Citizen wrote: Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:So the police chief just called me and apologized profusely for the violation of my rights and stated that he has given all the information he has received including the training bulletin to all his officers and dispatchers and has directed the training officer to create his own bulletin for Mercer Island and hold training for all officers and dispatchers in the town. Since my talk with the Chief was after I wrote my first letter, I will change it to reflect our conversation and my appreciation of his effort to get his officers trained to respect the rights of open carriers. I also will still be getting the information from the department and keeping it for my records just in case. While I'm angry at those officers for behaving like thugs, I will allow them to be shamed in their own right without trying to make them look the fool. All we're doing is exercising our rights, and we're not exercising them to make other people look stupid, we're exercising them for our own defense. As for the idea of inviting him to the barbecue... that's a great idea. I think I'll make it an open invite to all off duty officers (and the Chief of course) to do a kind of meat and greet. |
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sv_libertarian State Researcher
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Good deal! Glad to see Chief Holmes has done the right thing. I think a written apology would be more in order, but those are hard to come by. I look forward to seeing their training bulletin. |
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5jeffro7 Regular Member
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Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:
O.K., maybe it's too much sun, or maybe it's the fact that my back has been adjusted & I'm getting more blood flow to my brain, but care to play a silly little "what if" game? chief & some off duty officers show up at BBQ, Noel has to work, "people with guns" call goes out...noel responds & harasses chief ..not that he'd be THAT stupid...would he? |
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Dr. Fresh Regular Member
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5jeffro7 wrote: Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote: I seriously doubt it. Personally, I feel an apology isn't enough here. |
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sniknah Regular Member
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SUE THEM FOR ALL YOU CAN GET BRO!!!!! |
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John Hardin Regular Member 
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Don't forget 18 USC 242 when you're listing the officers' infringements: http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cid/civilrights/statutes.htm#section242 And, if all the officers had the "I don't care what the law is, we'll keep making your life difficult" attitude, 18 USC 241 (conspiracy) as well. Last edited on Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 05:44 am by John Hardin |
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Phssthpok Regular Member
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John Hardin wrote: Don't forget 18 USC 242 when you're listing the officers' infringements: Actually, if none of the others attempted to stop the actual infringement, the argument could be made that they supported the action and thereby were, in fact, conspiring with the actor, even though they themselves took no direct action. From the DOJ page: Section 241 of Title 18 is the civil rights conspiracy statute. (Emphasis mine) |
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phone guy Regular Member 
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I like to let the Mayer know about this. |
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Metalhead47 Regular Member
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Hey chalk two here up for any Sunday for the BBQ |
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Sea_Chicken Regular Member 
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Lets get a date for a bbq I'll try to make it. |
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ChuckUFarley Regular Member
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deanf wrote: and if so could you get them for filing a false police report. (sic) Your right, i was just thinking if people start getting charged for filing a false report or reporting an emergency when there isnt one, that maybe people would be more cautious about calling and reporting a crime that isnt a crime at all. Like when they charge people who call 911 because their turkey got burned. |
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ChuckUFarley Regular Member
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Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote: So the police chief just called me and apologized profusely for the violation of my rights and stated that he has given all the information he has received including the training bulletin to all his officers and dispatchers and has directed the training officer to create his own bulletin for Mercer Island and hold training for all officers and dispatchers in the town. Finally, I hope he takes these cops to task. I am encouraged that he called you it shows he is better then many of his counterparts. Kudos to him. |
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sudden valley gunner Regular Member
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I don't think an apology is enough. The cheif might be on board but that still doesn't excuse the actions of his officers. It isn't fair they can break the laws destroy somebody's fourth ammendment and then say oh sorry. Wich the offending officers never said. I would in the very least like to see reports of harrassment filed on these officers. Look at the attitude they had. The only reason you weren't hauled off or had charges pressed on you were you were totally above board. Do any of us here think that if the OP had done anything wrong no matter how small the infraction, they would have dropped the charges if he said "I am sorry" no matter how profusely? And it is officers like this that promote this us vs. them feelings in our communities, even stating 'I don't care what the law says'. I was told that negative reports go on the officers "jacket" and if he builds up to many he becomes a liability to his department. It also helps if someone has to defend themselves against some sort of abuse by this officer in court. If the defending attorney can show that this officer has a history of misconduct. Although we feel compelled as good human beings to forgive and forget, in not taking any actions we could be in fact enabling officers abusive behavior. |
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kwiebe Regular Member
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sudden valley gunner wrote: I don't think an apology is enough. The cheif might be on board but that still doesn't excuse the actions of his officers. It isn't fair they can break the laws destroy somebody's fourth ammendment and then say oh sorry. Wich the offending officers never said. I totally agree with this viewpoint. As things stand, the Chief's response hardly amounts to even a hand-slap, for what is a very serious case of misconduct and unprofessional behavior. |
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Washintonian_For_Liberty Regular Member
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I won't be able to have a BBQ on this Friday and my wife is going to get an early spot on the grass at the Bellevue downtown Park on Saturday. I think that the next three weeks will have me with previous commitments, not the least of which is the July 18th Willow Lake event. I think if we make a plan to have an August 1st or 2nd barbecue on Mercer Island at Luther Burbank Park, so that we can all head over to the I-90 bridge and watch the air show after we meet and eat, we can even all walk over to the I-90 bridge... open carrying all the way. Its about a 20 to 40 minute walk depending on your speed. With kids in tow, it's 40 minutes. |
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M1Gunr Regular Member 
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Set a date - I'll be there.... |
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Lante Regular Member
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I will come over any Sunday! |
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amlevin Regular Member
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Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote: So the police chief just called me and apologized profusely for the violation of my rights and stated that he has given all the information he has received including the training bulletin to all his officers and dispatchers and has directed the training officer to create his own bulletin for Mercer Island and hold training for all officers and dispatchers in the town. Being calm and logical often gets this type of response. I would, however, make sure that the speedometer in your car is super accurate and you don't speed on the Island. I used to date a girl that lived down in the "rich part" of the Island and had a MI cop chase me all the way across the bridge because he thought I was driving too fast for the "Neighborhood". Hope you don't get any special attention from any of the officers that obviously "lost face" in this incident. Or from any of their friends on the force. |
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jbone Regular Member 
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Good God! If they are saying that every time you show up in the park or anywhere in their jurisdiction you will be profiled and harassed, is that not a civil liberties issue. If a lady with unspeakable looking hairy moles on the face, a black man, an old man wearing a clown costume, or illegal alien was to suffer the same harassment and cuffing every time they were seen, what would that be called? Is there a new LEO generation dedicated to the oppression of civil liberties. To the hell with your rights, I make the law from here-on-out. I don't give a rats ass with what State Law, State Constitution, or the US Constitution says; I make the Law bubby. Does that pretty much sum of the Officers in you encounter?, not to mention the current reigning political party. |
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Citizen Founder's Club Member
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jbone wrote: SNIP Is there a new LEO generation dedicated to the oppression of civil liberties. To the hell with your rights, I make the law from here-on-out. I don't give a rats ass with what State Law, State Constitution, or the US Constitution says; I make the Law bubby. Maybe, maybe not. Here is a revealing quote from Terry vs Ohio (1968): ...The wholesale harassment by certain elements of the police community, of which minority groups, particularly Negroes, frequently complain, will not be stopped by the exclusion of any evidence from any criminal trial...(emphasis added) Two points. First, the court was aware that "certain elements of the police community" were violating the 4A prohibition of unreasonable searches and seizures--harassment. Second, the court knew the complaints were frequent. Something else just occurred to me. One of the major sparks for the American Revolution was something called "Writs of Assistance." A writ of assistance was basically a general warrant, something prohibited today by the 4th Amendment.* Would it not be ironic if the harassment mentioned in Terry was a major factor behind the civil rights movement? Basically it would mean that once again, violation of the principles embodied in the 4th Amendment contributed to a people standing up to government. *The 4A denies general warrants by setting out the requirements for an acceptable warrant: ...and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause...particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. (emphasis added) Last edited on Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 04:52 am by Citizen |
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jbone Regular Member
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Citizen wrote: jbone wrote:SNIP Is there a new LEO generation dedicated to the oppression of civil liberties. To the hell with your rights, I make the law from here-on-out. I don't give a rats ass with what State Law, State Constitution, or the US Constitution says; I make the Law bubby. Does the first & second point exist today? I mean are the courts aware of the frequent violations against lawful firearms owners while conduction lawful activity? I ask myself frequently are we spending more time swapping stories and providing sea lawyer advice on internet forums rather than filing complaint after complaint at city hall, demanding the violations of civil liberties under the 2A be heard in court. I'm a believer that this has progressed into a civil rights issue over the years. Frequency is as clear as the elements of agencies violating the 2A & State Constitutions. It's open season on gun owners, law enforcement agencies have officers legislating from a patrol car, councilmember's and mayors across the country are interrupting under their personal agendas, and none of these officials fear repercussion for their illegal actions. |
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Citizen Founder's Club Member
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jbone wrote: SNIP I ask myself frequently are we spending more time swapping stories and providing sea lawyer advice on internet forums rather than filing complaint after complaint at city hall, demanding the violations of civil liberties under the 2A be heard in court. Hmmmm. You have a point there. My main beef has been the 4A violations. My idea has been that if all we formally complain about is 2A violations, we miss the much broader and more common 4A violations. I believe every formal complaint should howl and hammer on the 4A violations, naming them as 4A violations, not just saying in so many words, "The LEO had no authority to detain me over my gun." I would prefer to read in caps, "THIS IS A VIOLATION OF THE 4TH AMENDMENT." However, there is no reason both cannot be complained in the same complaint. Nor is there any reason complaints cannot be aimed at City Council/the Legislature. I wonder if maybe we have been overlooking an avenue here. If you think about it, plenty of states have 2A protections in their state constitutions. And plenty of states have passed "shall issue," meaning legislatures have been friendly to 2A to a certain extent. |
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Gene Beasley Regular Member 
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jbone wrote: [snip] I am in full agreement. The main obstacle is money. I was looking into addressing an event last year and it was $300, if I remember correctly, just to file the case with the court. Legal fees and time would give ample cause to pause and reflect on the strength of your case and the likelihood of prevailing. But I don't think that what we are doing is without benefit. Look at the number of people of have gone from knowing nothing about OC to being fairly well versed in the statutes and case law. This isn't about me. A number of people have stood up for their rights; both in these contacts and challenging cities/counties/departments on their illegal laws or practices. I'm on a ccw list and more often than not I end up referring back to something that's already been discussed, if not resolved here. I have been mulling over the idea of talking with WASPC. Sue Rahr is in our corner and she is active. I used to work with the now executive director. There's always the chance that we could open up a can of worms with WASPC approaching the legislature for a bill that would favor the LEO, citing officer safety. My opinion is that in the current climate, every elected official's hold on their seat is so tenuous that they're not going to take on the citizenry. Just thinking out loud. |
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FunkTrooper Regular Member 
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I just had an Idea, if you get the cops to name themselves and get their confession of not caring what the law says on record then instead of making it a lawsuit take the tape to city hall let the officials hear it for themselves. It would probably get more people to focus on these rogue officers and get people to realize that just because cops bother you that doesn't make you a criminal. |
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antispam540 Regular Member 
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If he had the conversation taped, this would be a whole different story, and our elected representatives could hear it on the evening news. I don't carry my recorder as often as I should either, though. |
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FunkTrooper Regular Member
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I use my phone to record voice and am going to setup Ipod touch to record as well until I can get a decent voice recorder, kinda hard since money is tight. |
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Lurkus Maximus Campaign Veteran 
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FunkTrooper wrote: I use my phone to record voice and am going to setup Ipod touch to record as well until I can get a decent voice recorder, kinda hard since money is tight.Crossover from this post: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum65/27711.html but have you seen the services that offer remote (ie inaccessible to delete or confiscate by anyone but you) storage for phone conversations? I'm curious if anyone has used them. |
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swatspyder Regular Member
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Lurkus Maximus wrote: FunkTrooper wrote:I use my phone to record voice and am going to setup Ipod touch to record as well until I can get a decent voice recorder, kinda hard since money is tight.Crossover from this post: If the files are deleted, as long as you dont record anything again and you shut it right off, you can recover the files that were deleted on any home computer. |
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Lurkus Maximus Campaign Veteran
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swatspyder wrote: SnipThese services work by recording a phone call to an intermediate server. If your recording device (cell phone) is "lost", the recording is still available to you from the server. Last edited on Sat Jul 4th, 2009 12:16 am by Lurkus Maximus |
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amlevin Regular Member
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Gene Beasley wrote: Yes it is. Consider this though, our Founding Fathers put EVERYTHING they had at risk just to declare independence from England. Not just lawyer's fees, court fees, etc, but every bit of wealth they possessed. Everything up to and including their lives were on the line. Something to consider tomorrow between the Monster BBQ Burger, Potato Salad, and the swig of your favorite cold beverage. |
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jbone Regular Member
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amlevin wrote: Gene Beasley wrote:Yes it is. Consider this though, our Founding Fathers put EVERYTHING they had at risk just to declare independence from England. Not just lawyer's fees, court fees, etc, but every bit of wealth they possessed. Everything up to and including their lives were on the line. Something to consider tomorrow between the Monster BBQ Burger, Potato Salad, and the swig of your favorite cold beverage. That's about it, the cities and counties suck up the tax payer dollars fighting us off, while the blue collar worker can barely afford to file the case from their own wallet. How do we tap into our tax dollars, public defenders? If you haven't been arrested can you use them for a case where you are the plaintiff? Last edited on Sat Jul 4th, 2009 05:27 am by jbone |
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j2l3 Regular Member 
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jbone wrote:
Nope, that's why they are called "Public "Defenders" |
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amlevin Regular Member
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jbone wrote: How do we tap into our tax dollars, public defenders? You really can, up front. That said you CAN tap these dollars by successfully pleading your case and getting a favorable judgement. In most cases the looser pays the attorney fees associated with the case if the Judge is reasonable. If your case is good there are often lawyers that will handle it on contingency. Make sure you have ALL the facts and "go shopping". Obviously few, if any, lawyers will take a case that is a "looser" at first look. There are also organizations that will take up the "sword" if there are compelling facts. It all revolves around FACTS. |
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Temporary Regular Member
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To whom these words may concern, I would like those members here to know that I have created this account, 'Temporary,' with only the intention to reply to this thread. I do live on Mercer Island, attended Mercer Island High School, and have graduated my boarding school with the class of 2009. I am nineteen years of age, male, and am not affiliated or advocative of any "civil liberty" organizations--that I am currently aware of. What happened to the O. P., while concern is warranted (because of modern media and communication technologies, public awareness of violent and sexual crime, amongst other, taboo, behaviours, has been increased), I do not believe that the Mercer Island Police Department was at all warranted in their behaviour toward you. Of course, they, for their safety, would not wish to reach down near you and pick up a pamphlet (which could be incorrect or biased); how ever, threats and other judgemental behaviour is that of a biased and, regarding their job, corrupted Police--not one that I would like on Mercer Island. Realizing that they may have been transfered from other departments, where violent and sexual crime is more rampant, or alive, such aforementioned cautions are those belonging to a well-trained and experienced Police. Other wise, I would be led to believe that, due to the low, percieved, violent and sexual crime, in addition to the recent housing and business influx in the central business district, where Mercerdale Park is located at the edge of, an inexperienced Police might have been merely jumpy and, perhaps, excited at their first gun related "crime," some thing many, I would presume, only view on educational runs and tapes. In conclusion, and I apoligize if my response has seemed precotious or drawn, I would say, with all of my experience in the law field, to file a complaint with the highest possible authority; with all of my passion and judgement, I would suggest that you file a civil suit with either the City of Mercer Island or the Mercer Island Police Department for your aforementioned grievances. Such suggestions are made assuming that your civil case would be to publicize your grievances, rather than for monetary gain--to which, I would assume, would be none. Regards, Devon Kelly Mulhaney |
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Temporary Regular Member
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swatspyder wrote: Lurkus Maximus wrote:FunkTrooper wrote:I use my phone to record voice and am going to setup Ipod touch to record as well until I can get a decent voice recorder, kinda hard since money is tight.Crossover from this post: Would such means be illegal in our State of Washington? |
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Temporary Regular Member
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jbone wrote: Good God! If they are saying that every time you show up in the park or anywhere in their jurisdiction you will be profiled and harassed, is that not a civil liberties issue. I would hope that an old man wearing a clown costume would be watched carefully. I would hope that an illegal alien would be detained, if by force or other wise, and deported by what ever means necessary--not necessarily to their home country; if not for the cost of "time," money, and cell space, I would also have that illegal alien arrested for a period of time (with no trial by jury, as that illegal alien does not qualify for any civil liberties). |
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5jeffro7 Regular Member
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Mr. Mulhaney: first, welcome to OCDO...you mention that you only signed up to comment on this incident, but by all means, stick around. I don't think I'm stepping out of bounds by saying that we're always in need of common sense on the board, & judging from your first posts, that is not a problem area for you. I know I had a good phone conversation with the chief & the OP has also been corresponding with him via phone & email. AT THIS POINT, we're simply looking for the department to correct their shot-sightedness & move forward with the training bulletins..if, after the bulletins have been put in place & training done, it happens again, the chief is very well aware that the person will not hesitate to file the appropriate suits. this avenue allows several things:  it shows that we're more interested in solving the problem than with lawsuits,which portrays us in a better light, not only with the chief, but with the courts (if needed at a later time) as well it gives the department a chance to correct their errors and in the event that it does happen to someone again, it gives even more leverage/chance of winning a lawsuitt at that time |
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