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bnhcomputing Founder's Club Member
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Go into Wal-Mart tonight in Plover. Carried there several times before without issue. I buy mouse pads and check-out. Then go to Sub-Way (inside Wal-Mart). As I am ordering a sub, A young guy walks up to me: W-Mart: Are you a police officer? Me: No. W-Mart: Do you have a permit to carry that? Me: Actually, Wisconsin does not have or require permits to carry. W-Mart: We had a few people say they were nervous. Me: No need to be nervous, I am not doing anything other than eating. W-Mart: Thank you sir. Me: You're welcome. I finish ordering the sub, sit down and eat. When I finish, I go back up to the counter and order two(2) more subs to take home to the family. As I am paying for the second order, the subway guy says, "I think there are people here to talk to you." I say, ya, kinda figured. I pay for the subs, and ask if I can get a little more soda. Subway guy says sure. I get a little more soda, and head out of Subway into Wal-Mart. As I step into Wal-Mart, I am met by three (3) LEO. Leo1: Hello, I am officer xxx from the Plover Police department. The management here contacted us stating you are making people nervous and they would like yo to leave. Me: I wasn't aware of that. They did not ask me to leave, if they had, I would have left. Leo1: Although open carry is legal, they didn't feel comfortable asking you to leave so they contacted us. Me: No problem, I am finished anyway, I'll head on out. Leo1: Do you have some ID? Me: Am I required to give you ID? Leo1: When we are asked to ask you to leave, you are. Me: I don't believe I am, but rather that argue, I will provide ID under duress. I give him the ID, he starts the call in process. Leo2: There is another guy who lives here in Plover who open carries a lot. I thought you might be that guy. Me: I wasn't aware of that. Leo1: Is this your current address? Me: Yes. Leo1: Your phone number? Me: xxx-xxx-xxxx Leo2: I assume you are well versed on Open Carry and realize that the property owners can ask you to leave. Me: Yes, and if they had asked, I would have left immediately. Leo1: Here is you license back. Where are you parked, but this entrance or the other one? Me: By the other, but I can use this entrance, and walk across the parking lot. Leo2: Should we start out? Me: No problem, I walk out the door followed by the three LEO. Leo1: Thank you for cooperating with us. Me: Have a nice evening. That's twice in as many days, that I have been contacted by LEO. I will be sending an open records request to the plover police tomorrow. |
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J.Gleason Campaign Veteran
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Sooner or later is has to come down to some one suing for deprivation of rights. That is all it is going to take and maybe then these people will wake up. TITLE 42 - THE PUBLIC HEALTH AND WELFARE CHAPTER 21 - CIVIL RIGHTS SUBCHAPTER I - GENERALLY § 1983. Civil action for deprivation of rights Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress, except that in any action brought against a judicial officer for an act or omission taken in such officer’s judicial capacity, injunctive relief shall not be granted unless a declaratory decree was violated or declaratory relief was unavailable. For the purposes of this section, any Act of Congress applicable exclusively to the District of Columbia shall be considered to be a statute of the District of Columbia. (R.S. § 1979; Pub. L. 96–170, § 1, Dec. 29, 1979, 93 Stat. 1284; Pub. L. 104–317, title III, § 309(c), Oct. 19, 1996, 110 Stat. 3853.) |
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Citizen Founder's Club Member
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Was the ID "process" the beginning of being "trespassed", meaning, now you get a letter saying you are not allowed back on penalty of being arrested for trespassing? |
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bnhcomputing Founder's Club Member
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Citizen wrote: Was the ID "process" the beginning of being "trespassed", meaning, now you get a letter saying you are not allowed back on penalty of being arrested for trespassing? Unknown at this time. I will be contacting Corporate Wal-Mart via snail mail, because there doesn't appear to be any electronic way to do so. I will scan/post any documentation I receive. |
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Citizen Founder's Club Member
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I wonder if there is any benefit to going back, unOCing, and asking the manager if they requested the police to trespass you. Or maybe phrase it a little differently, "Did the police suggest you trespass me?" I'll have to think about that. Also, I guess I'll have to add to my tactics asking the police, if they demand ID in a similar circumstance, "Did the store say they wanted me trespassed?" Depending on that answer, then maybe ask, "Oh? They did. I see. Was that your idea or theirs?" I'll have to work this out a little bit. |
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Doug Huffman Regular Member 
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Best wishes. The stock Wal-Mart answer, from many similar such incidents reported here on OCDO, is that "store policy is to follow state law." To get a more definitive or responsive statement will be a coup. And we will get a practical lesson in the application of Wisc. ID law and learn about the crime that was about to be/in process/had been committed. I don't recall the 'demand ID' as part of Wisconsin trespass law. From my experience with other jurisdictions effective notice must be made. I suggest that absent notice you must be allowed to cure your trespass without committing a crime or tortious act. An attorney might be useful to untangle these three disparate areas of law; gun law, trespass law and stop and ID. Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. |
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Doug Huffman Regular Member
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As an after thought, much later, it would/will be interesting were the same circumstances surround a member of a protected class thus forcing a differentiation between protected and non-protected civil rights (with a nod to Jackie's '1983') in PC Wisconsin. |
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Yooper Regular Member 
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 This is from MI Open Carry. Hope it helps!!!Corporate policies on Open Carry. MOC is compiling coporate poilicies on firearms. These businesses allow OC or CC and follow state laws in regards to firearms. MOC works hard on getting stores to allow the lawful carry of firearms for personal defense and follow state law in that regard. If you have other policies please PM me details and I will update them. Corporate policies on Open Carry. BOB EVANS From:Garrett_Hajes@bobevans.com Bob Evans - Reference # 536155 We certainly appreciate you taking the time to e-mail regarding our Bob Evans Restaurants. Bob Evans follows all local, state, and federal laws pertaining to firearms. Please contact your local Bob Evans restaurants for the specific regulations. Again, Mr. Spice, we appreciate your comments. We value your patronage and appreciate your interest in Bob Evans Farms Inc. Barnes & Noble Original Message From: "Mary Ausman" <MJAusman@bn.com> To: XXXXXXXXXXX Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 1:42 PM Subject: Barnes & Noble Thank you for your email. While we are unable to discuss customer situations with an uninvolved third part, to answer your question, Barnes & Noble complies with the law and, except where prohibited by law, does not prohibit its customers from carrying handguns or other firearms in a Barnes & Noble store in accordance with the laws of the state in which a store is located. Sincerely, Mary Ausman Supervisor, Customer Retention Barnes & Noble, Inc. 122 Fifth Avenue New York, NY 10011 tel: (800) 422-7717 fax: (212)352.3660 http://www.barnesandnobleinc.com Walmart Policy is to follow the law of the state the store located. Customer Service1-800-Wal-Mart (1-800-925-627  Questions regarding a Wal-Mart Store issue702 SW 8th Street Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. Bentonville, Arkansas 72716-8611 Email contact link: http://walmartstores.com/contactus/feedback.aspx Audio of Walmart Policy: Walmart_Firearm_Policy_Call.mp3 Cabelas: Policy is to follow the law of the state the store located. Thank you for the recent email. I am very sorry for the confusion that took place at our retail location. Our corporate office has taken action in regards to the below mentioned issue and here is what has been decided. We have made the decision to comply with state laws in regards to open carry. We do not ask customers to check concealed or open carry weapons where the state has laws governing this situation. Our signs refer to firearms that are being returned or sold to Cabela's. If you are still having problems please feel free to let us know Thanks again Becky Lead Associate Cabela's Retail Information 1-800-905-2731 retail.contactgroup<AT>cabelas.com Toys-R-US Dear Mr. Ross: Thank you for contacting Toys R Us regarding the recent tragedy in our store. Naturally, we want our guest's to be safe and feel confident while they are shopping. We adhere to the state law of whatever state a particular store is located in since the governing laws regarding gun control vary across the country. At this time I have not been notified that this will change though I can not guarantee that it won't in the future. I invite you to submit your concerns to our corporate head office for further attention. Toys R Us Attn: Gerald Storch (CEO) 1 Geoffrey Way Wayne, NJ 07470 If you have any further questions or concerns please email us or contact our customer service line at 1-800-869-7787. Sincerely, Beverly McCann Toys R Us Corporate Guest Relations Team LOWE'S Dear XXXX XXXX: Thank you for giving Lowe's the opportunity to respond to your concerns regarding our policy on firearms in our stores. Lowe's currently does, and will continue to abide by federal, state and local laws regarding firearms, and we do not prohibit customers from carrying firearms into our stores. Our first and foremost concern is for the safety of our customers, however; we take all comments and concerns from our customers seriously. We are considerate of all customers, and will remain neutral regarding the right to carry firearms. We will respect federal, state and local laws regarding this. If Lowe's can be of further assistance, please do not hesitate to call 1-866-284-8989 or email execustservice@lowes.com. You may also contact us by mailing your correspondence to P.O. Box 1111, Mail Code CON8, North Wilkesboro, North Carolina 28659. Thank you, Julie Holloway Lowe's Executive Customer Service BEST BUY's POLICY from Customer Contact <CustomerContact@bestbuy.com> to XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX date Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 7:31 PM subject Best Buy Gun policy - XXXXXXXX mailed-by bestbuy.com Best Buy strives to comply with all applicable law and statues. Best Buy also strives to provide a safe and comfortable shopping environment for all our customers. Best Buy does not ban guns at our retail locations. As a general rule, Best Buy does not post “no guns allowed” signs in our stores and we are not aware of any individual stores that might have posted such a sign. Home Depot. Policy is to follow the law of the state the store located. http://www.tennesseefirearms.com/law...s/homedepo.pdf Customer care number. 1-800-430-3376 Contact link: http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/...atalogId=10053 Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 06:13:57 -0400 (EDT) From: "HD Consumer Affairs" <hdconsumeraffairs@homedepot.com> To: warchild44spcl@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Other Website Questions Dear Jerry, The Home Depot Customer Care is in receipt of your email. We appreciate you taking the time to email us. Our general policy is not to ban customers from carrying firearms on the Home Depot property in those states having a concealed firearm law, provided they are carrying the firearm in accordance with the applicable laws. If the firearm is not concealed in accordance with the carrying permit (typically that means concealed and cannot be seen by members of the public), it is up to the manager based on personal comfort level to approach the individual directly and request them to leave the premises or to contact local law enforcement for purposes of having the individual removed. Thank you for contacting us. Sincerely, Ricky Customer Care |
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zigziggityzoo Campaign Veteran 
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Doug Huffman wrote:Best wishes. Generally, you're only allowed to "cure your trespass" in a place in which the general public is allowed (basically, any business that doesn't require membership to patronize). Obviously, WalMart qualifies here. In this case, he was not given ample opportunity, as he was never asked to leave by anyone before the officer got involved. I'd have personally refused ID, and politely informed him that now that I know I'm not welcome, I'll gladly leave. If the officer wants to take it further, he's taking his career into his own hands. |
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Yooper Regular Member
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PM Venator on the Michigan board. He should know how to get corporate to contact the store and inform them of corporate policy. They (MI forum members) have done it before, and I don't see why it would be any different for WI |
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Nutczak Regular Member 
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I got to say it again, the MI members have got it going on and are on top of things. I read the MI threads alot because I visit the U.P. often and I may relocate there one of these years. Maybe we can sticky the post with the corporate policies to the top of the WI thread or someplace in the main page for easier future reference? |
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No1 Banned
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eeew too true mee two well said no one |
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Flipper Campaign Veteran 
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Walmart policies discussed elsewhere: http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-300305.html http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/07/04/02/editor.htm http://badgerblogger.com/?p=12377 http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/40413-wal-mart-dickson-city-no-longer-oc-friendly.html Last edited on Wed Jul 1st, 2009 09:10 pm by Flipper |
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Woodchuck Regular Member
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Geez Hubert, you got a target on your back? The rate your going it should be a hell of an interesting day at the Tea Party. I'm not sure I'd give up ID that quickly either. But not having been asked by a LEO yet who knows, I may curl up in the fetal position and wet myself. Sure hope not, lol. Quess I'll find out sometime now that I do carry most places. |
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MadtownTim Regular Member
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Here is one thing to keep in mine while open carrying. This is coming from information gotten during a recent discussion about open carry in Madison, with a Police seargant. Paraphrasing as I understood what she said to me: if you are out walking your dog, and someone calls to notify us of a man with a gun, and they are scared/worried, a patrol car will roll, they will draw their weapons and you will most likely be cited for disorderly conduct while armed. This was reinforced with a phone call to the DA's office here in Madison. In speaking with 2 different ADAs, we were told that if someone calls and complains that they see a man with a gun and they are nervous, they would roll a squad, draw their weapons and I would be prosecuted for DC while armed. Given the description of the incident above, I'm surprised that they didn't bring up DC while armed. Though the Plover PD has always been a bit over-zealous in their enforcement policies anyway. |
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logan Campaign Veteran 
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MadtownTim wrote: Here is one thing to keep in mine while open carrying. Welcome to the website. I would think if that were to happen...as long as you didn't do anything wrong except scare some person who fears guns and you get a DC...there'd be a lawsuit. But thats just me. Last edited on Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 01:47 am by logan |
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J.Gleason Campaign Veteran
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I believe there are 2 federal law suits going at this time for the same circumstances. Not to keep beatin a dead cat with a stick but.... http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/42/usc_sec_42_00001983----000-.html Last edited on Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 01:56 am by J.Gleason |
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Mugenlude Campaign Veteran
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MadtownTim wrote: Here is one thing to keep in mine while open carrying. Welcome to the site!!! This response sounds very familiiar, if you do so searching on this website you will see that lots of cities said that at some point, however, many people aren't actually running into this. It seems like a scare tactic to deter you from open carrying your firearm, they are used to not having to deal with citizens with firearms. The AG issued a memo addressing the situation you just described and it said that OC in and off itself is not DC. That is probably what they used to do, but the AG issue the memo and all of the police departments know of this ruling. Don't let them deter you... |
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Doug Huffman Regular Member
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Simple DC is a forfeiture misdemeanor (947.01, 939.63(2) and 939.51 & .52). No one that worries about the AG will ever see the charge. Even with the deadly weapons enhancement to potentially >365 days of incarceration 939.63(2) it's still a misdemeanor. Last edited on Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 02:21 am by Doug Huffman |
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Woodchuck Regular Member
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MadtownTim wrote:Here is one thing to keep in mine while open carrying. Welcome to the site. Wisconsin AG's MEMO linky |
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hugh jarmis Centurion Member
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Here is one thing to keep in mine while open carrying. Categorically false. Either you are trolling or you've been fed a complete scare tactic. (I'm not passing judgement, welcome to the site) but this notion (as purportedly relayed to you by 2 ADA's and the police is absolutely wrong.) |
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Shotgun Founder's Club Member 
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MadtownTim wrote: Here is one thing to keep in mine while open carrying. Interesting that they would use the example of walking a dog while OCing, since that's exactly what I do frequently in Madison.  As I recently posted, two Madison PD cars passed by-- about 5 minutes apart-- during my last such excursion. Hell, I can see them wanting to cite my dog, because he is disorderly, but I'm not. Would like to know which sergeant you talked with-- obviously they're not all on the same page. Hubert, it always happens when you're eating. Stop eating! Better yet, stop carrying your ID on you! That will end the dilemma about how to handle it. |
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J.Gleason Campaign Veteran
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I smell a troll. |
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bnhcomputing Founder's Club Member
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Shotgun wrote: Hubert, it always happens when you're eating. Stop eating! Better yet, stop carrying your ID on you! That will end the dilemma about how to handle it. Are you suggesting I need to go on a diet?  You are correct, had I simply purchased the mouse pads and left, this most likely wouldn't have happened. It also seems to me, that this is the exact sort of thing that happened in PA with OC and dining out. |
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hugh jarmis Centurion Member
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I'm trying to be open-minded here, but lets disect:
We've known for months... heck YEARS that police DO NOT know the law. Anything a police officer tells you should be considered false prima facie.
Who's "we"? In speaking with 2 different ADAs, we were told that if someone calls and complains that they see a man with a gun and they are nervous, they would roll a squad, draw their weapons and I would be prosecuted for DC while armed. "they" would roll a squad? District Attorneys don't "roll a squad" district attorneys don't "draw their weapons" Lotta "rolling a squad" talk going here. Sounds like "industry" lingo to me. You a cop Madtown Tim? Please don't be offended if I'm "way off base" here. Please understand we REGULARLY get trolls in here who seem to be hell bent on spreading mis-information and scaring people into not exercising their rights. In this case it couldn't be any clearer. JB Van Hollen's memo was CRYSTAL clear, and he subsequently appeared in MANY public forums with even MORE precise language. We have a CONSTITUTIONAL right to open carry. It is not a crime. If all you are doing is lawfully open-carrying you CANNOT be prosecuted. That is the fact. |
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Nutczak Regular Member
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We still have a gun-shop owner stating falsehoods like Tim has repeated. His latest one is "You won't be bothered anywhere out of the downtowm area. but step into downtown while carrying and you'll get arrested" Well I think I proved that one wrong with this!  |
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MadtownTim Regular Member
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Sniff all you like, you're only going to smell my dog and possibly a cigarette or three. The example of the dog is mine. When first discussing the scenario with Sgt. Laner (sp?) yesterday at the Northside Precinct. From one of the conference rooms, we called the DA's office, and that's where the "we" comes from as we were sitting next to eachother at the time of the call. BTW, I were a troll, you'd know it without sniffing.  I've been on message boards dating back to the old BBS's. Back before there were pretty pictures on the screen. I have no doubt that there is some discouragement going on. They don't me from Adam, and therefore, their best tactic is to try and defuse a situation before there is one. I understand it, and I don't begrudge them that. However, with the criminals encroching more and more on me and mine. I'm not looking to start trouble. I am attempting to avoid trouble. And thank you for the welcomes. I just now realized that as long as I've been reading these boards, I hadn't posted. |
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hugh jarmis Centurion Member
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Fair enough. What were you doing in the conference room of a cop shop? I think its disturbing that the police continue to demonstrate a woefully inept knowledge of the law, (but isn't surprising) More surprising is that the ADA's don't know the law either. I presume upon reading this thread Jesus is already planning a trip to Mad-town northside precinct to do a little "on-the-job-training" They'll know him when they see him. He's the guy with the t-shirt that says "have civil rights attorney on retainer, will travel" For the sake of Madison taxpayers I hope Tthey take it upon themselves to know the law a little better right quick. Carry on! |
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AaronS Regular Member 
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MadtownTim wrote: Here is one thing to keep in mine while open carrying.Cops will say a lot. Most of it, is what they would like to see, not what is real. People are open carrying in Madison. That is a fact... |
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J.Gleason Campaign Veteran
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Nutczak wrote: We still have a gun-shop owner stating falsehoods like Tim has repeated. His latest one is "You won't be bothered anywhere out of the downtowm area. but step into downtown while carrying and you'll get arrested"OK Nutczak, I am a little confused, are you one of the guys that are packin heat or are you the little dude in the gray hoodie at the other end of the side walk?  |
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AaronS Regular Member
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hugh jarmis wrote: Fair enough. What were you doing in the conference room of a cop shop? Hey Jesus, if you need a ride, drop me a line. Sounds like Madison could use a few good people to try and help out... Carry on! Last edited on Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 06:34 am by AaronS |
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MadtownTim Regular Member
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I had stopped in as I was looking for clarification on what constituted "concealed" with regards to a holster (i.e. how much of a gun did I need to show). Now, to answer the next question that will be coming, I was looking to get a holster and was trying to decide whether to IWB or OWB. I've heard positive things about both, so I figured I'd see if their decision eliminated one or the other. The other thing is I anticipated the answers that I got. They didn't shock me or even mildly surprise me. I'm not stupid. I went there in good faith, looking for clarification on how much I needed to show to remain within the law. Going to the conference room was my idea as there were others in the lobby and figured it would be more comfortable for all concerned, especially given that one of the other people in the lobby was a 70sish man discussing a court case with one of the other officers. Give him whatever privacy I could, while still be able to discuss my questions without having to deal with interlopers. |
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GlockMeisterG21 Campaign Veteran 
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The best advice I can give you is never ask for permission to carry or clarification on a law from any officer, DA, whatever. They will almost always err on the side of caution and say no. It doesn't matter what they've been told or that they've read the AG's memo they will likely say no. Nobody will want to go on record at this point and say they don't have a problem with it unless they have to. By asking them you are giving them power over your actions. Research the laws, seek out some training, and go exercise you rights. It feels great. |
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Flipper Campaign Veteran
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I had a discussion with the police chief of my Madison suburan community. I figured that if I get stopped, they will be aware of what I was doing - and why. Although he was courteous and did not do the Flynn routine, he did do the "I am a hunter ....I don't understand what you people are trying to prove" bit. As a member of the ACLU and several 2nd Amendment organizations - NRA, GOA, JPFO, WGO - I found his lack of appreciation for constitutional rights distrubing. The Nevada ACLU is speaking up for open carry rights. Maybe a some point Wisconsin's will also, given that it is the only way the right to bear arms granted by our state constitution can be exercised. http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum66/27923.html I have oc in Madison and my community since. So far there has been no reaction from anyone. http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum57/27077.html Last edited on Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 02:38 pm by Flipper |
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hugh jarmis Centurion Member
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I went there in good faith, looking for clarification on how much I needed to show to remain within the law. Its kind of sad that it is the case, BUT its become abundantly clear to all of us that the police are the LAST and WORST resource to depend on when it comes to your rights. It seems as if they SHOULD be the first resource. Unfortunately because of the "command and control" verses "serve and protect"attitude they have, they are not. In addition, the police have no legal obligation to tell you the truth. In fact, (while I"m not quick with the case-law citations as others are) I believe the police DO NOT even have a legal obligation to protect you. The Police oder of priority seems to be to: -protect themselves first, -protect the government interests second, -generate revuenue for the government through victimless crime "regulation"/Malum prohibitum enforcement third -protect the rights of law-abiding citizens last, and only if they get to play hero in doing so. |
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J.Gleason Campaign Veteran
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I have never heard of the police in any town giving out free legal advice. At least none that is worth listening too. I think if I went to the local PD and wanted some info and then suggested that I be allowed to use the conference room, the only thing I would get would be laughed at. They don't even want to talk to you unless it is through a window. After the recent memo was distributed by the AG and since it has been weeks since that has occurred any officer threatening to arrest me for doing something which is perfectly legal would be informed of my intent to file a lawsuit against them and own everything they have. The funny thing is that everyone out there only thinks of how much it would cost them for an attorney. The fact of the matter is, if you win, and you will win with out a doubt, the loser pays your attorney fees. So with that in mind and the fact that there are many attorneys out there that will either go for attorney fees or take their fees out of your winnings, who has the most too lose? The evidence is in your favor. Last edited on Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 03:24 pm by J.Gleason |
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J.Gleason Campaign Veteran
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I am not criticizing Hubert by any means, I think he did very well, but... What if it went like this? Go into Wal-Mart tonight in Plover. Carried there several times before without issue. I buy mouse pads and check-out. Then go to Sub-Way (inside Wal-Mart). As I am ordering a sub, A young guy walks up to me: W-Mart: Are you a police officer? Me: No. W-Mart: Do you have a permit to carry that? Me: Actually, Wisconsin does not have or require permits to carry. W-Mart: We had a few people say they were nervous. Me: No need to be nervous, I am not doing anything other than eating. W-Mart: Thank you sir. Me: You're welcome. I finish ordering the sub, sit down and eat. When I finish, I go back up to the counter and order two(2) more subs to take home to the family. As I am paying for the second order, the subway guy says, "I think there are people here to talk to you." I say, ya, kinda figured. I pay for the subs, and ask if I can get a little more soda. Subway guy says sure. I get a little more soda, and head out of Subway into Wal-Mart. As I step into Wal-Mart, I am met by three (3) LEO. Leo1: Hello, I am officer xxx from the Plover Police department. The management here contacted us stating you are making people nervous and they would like yo to leave. Me: I wasn't aware of that. They did not ask me to leave, if they had, I would have left. Leo1: Although open carry is legal, they didn't feel comfortable asking you to leave so they contacted us. Me: No problem, I am finished anyway, I'll head on out. Leo1: Do you have some ID? Me: Am I required to give you ID? I do, how ever, I am not required to show you ID, my name is ............ Leo1: When we are asked to ask you to leave, you are. Is that defined in the statutes? Me: I don't believe I am, but rather than argue, I will provide ID under duress. I do not believe I am, however, my ID is in my wallet. I do not consent to any search at this time. I give him the ID, he starts the call in process. Let them take your license out of your pocket. Leo2: There is another guy who lives here in Plover who open carries a lot. I thought you might be that guy. Me: I wasn't aware of that. No Comment Leo1: Is this your current address? Me: Yes. Leo1: Your phone number? Me: xxx-xxx-xxxx No Comment Leo2: I assume you are well versed on Open Carry and realize that the property owners can ask you to leave. Me: Yes, and if they had asked, I would have left immediately. Since the Subway staff did not ask me to leave I did not leave. Leo1: Here is you license back. Where are you parked, by this entrance or the other one? Me: By the other, but I can use this entrance, and walk across the parking lot. Leo2: Should we start out? Me: No problem, I walk out the door followed by the three LEO. Leo1: Thank you for cooperating with us. Me: Have a nice evening. Would this be a great time to say, " By the way officer I just want you to know that I will be filing an open records request on this incident and I plan on filing a civil suit under Title 42 > Chapter 21 > Subchapter I > Section 1983 of the U.S.Code against the person or persons who have had me removed from this property for simply exercising my rights as an American?" It would be interesting to see the response. You know they will more than likely pass that along to the manager. We need to start expressing that we are not going to keep accepting the fact that some one can complain and then we are not allowed to exercise our rights. § 1983. Civil action for deprivation of rights Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress, except that in any action brought against a judicial officer for an act or omission taken in such officer’s judicial capacity, injunctive relief shall not be granted unless a declaratory decree was violated or declaratory relief was unavailable. For the purposes of this section, any Act of Congress applicable exclusively to the District of Columbia shall be considered to be a statute of the District of Columbia. This is powerful.... This is an act of Congress..... a gift, if you will, that will give you the upper hand any time you are interrupted while exercising any of your rights under the constitution. Why aren't we using this? Am I missing something here? We could make up a business card that has this in print and give one to the officers, only after they ask you to leave. Maybe they will lose a little sleep over it who knows. Last edited on Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 08:48 pm by J.Gleason |
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Doug Huffman Regular Member
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I believe that the proper, certainly common, format for a federal code or regulation citation is XX usc/cfr xxx, Title XX, Subsection xxx of the USC or CFR |
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J.Gleason Campaign Veteran
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OMG you must be bored. |
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Doug Huffman Regular Member
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Nope, just taking a break from studying my new tractor, a Ford/NH 3910 about 20 years old. It just arrived today while I was cleaning 330# of whitefish for Independence Day fish boil. Then I'm off to the AmLegion meeting to finalize the FB plans. Exciting life! ETA much later: and I have been relieved as Adjutant - thank GOoDness! We got four cases of .30 caliber saluting rounds for our Garands. I wonder how many other Posts are still using Garands. Last edited on Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 03:06 am by Doug Huffman |
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pvtschultz Campaign Veteran
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My post is still using M1's.  |
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JG Regular Member
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Im a life time VFW member and never been to a meeting. Im ashamed of myself. I hate to go the club because I can never get a stool in the bar. |
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Brass Magnet Founder's Club Member 
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hugh jarmis wrote: I went there in good faith, looking for clarification on how much I needed to show to remain within the law. Warren Vs. DC is the case you are thinking of. Nothing like a 15 hour response time to make you think it's a good idea to carry a firearm. Last edited on Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 03:56 pm by Brass Magnet |
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J.Gleason Campaign Veteran
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What is this world coming too? |
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