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T Vance Regular Member 
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I sent the following to the Chief of Police for the City of Jackson as well as to Lt. Jim Shaw of the Michigan State Police Post #17 in Jackson. "Good afternoon, I had a problem being stopped by several Jackson City Police officers after a 911 call was made about me open carrying in public several months ago. I can't go into much detail about it because I am fighting a traffic ticket I recieved that day after being stopped for open carrying a handgun. It has been brought to my attention that someone else was recently stopped for open carrying by another Jackson City Police Officer and I thought this information needed to be sent again to make you aware of the legality of open carry in the State of Michigan. We are not out to cause trouble, make a scene, or have any problems with law enforcement officers. We are just law abiding citizens that wish to protect ourselves and exercize our Constitutional rights. I would appreciate a response to verify that you recieved this email, and have discussed this issue with your fellow officers. I appreciate the hard work all of you do everyday. Below you will find an information pack on the legality of open carry. I did have contact with Lt. Jim Shaw of the Michigan State Police Department, as well as Captain Kevin Stellingworth of the Jackson Sherrif's Department several months ago pertaining to this topic, and was told that they has discussed this with their fellow officers. I just thought they should be aware of this. I did send a copy of this email to the Jackson City Police Department at the same time I sent them copies back in May but never recieved a response. I hope this makes its way to the Chief of the Jackson City Police Department, and as requested would like a reponse stating that this information was recieved. Thank you for your time and hard work. T Vance" Also, here is a link to those court cases you requested Kimberguy. http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/26723.html 1 See, for example, Com. v. Couture, 407 Mass. 178, 552 N.E.2d 538 (1990), cert. denied, 498 U.S. 951, 111 S. Ct. 372, 112 L.Ed.2d 334 (1990). 2 Id. 3 See Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 88 S. Ct. 1868, 20 L.Ed.2d 889 (196 4 Com. v. Alvarado, 423 Mass. 277, 667 N.E.2d 856 (199 . 5 Alabama v. White, 496 U.S. 325, 110 S. Ct. 2412, 110 L.Ed.2. 301 (1990). 6 Florida v. J.L., 529 U.S. 266, 120 S. Ct. 1375, 146 L.Ed.2d 254 (2000). 7 Pennsylvania v. D.M., U.S. 120 S. Ct. 203, 146 L.Ed.2d 953 (2000). 8 Id. 9 Alabama v. White, 496 U.S. 325, 1105 S. Ct. 2412, 110 L.Ed.2d 301 (1990); U.S. v. Diallo, 29 F.3d 23 (1st Cir. 1994); U.S. v. Taylor, 162 F.3d 12 (1st Cir. 199 . |
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T Vance Regular Member
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I recieved this so far. "Mr. Vance: I received your e-mail, and I will forward it to both the Chief of Police, who is out of the office until Monday, and the Deputy Chief of Police, as he is in charge while Chief Heins is away from the office. KayCe Parsons CPS/CAP Secretary to the Chief of Police Jackson Police Department 216 E. Washington Ave. Jackson, Michigan 49201 517.768.8731 - Direct 517.788.4129 - Fax kparsons@cityofjackson.org " |
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cabman1 Regular Member 
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I had a talk with cheif matt heins a few weeks in regards to open carry. he had told me that he has retrained the city leos. |
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Kimberguy Regular Member 
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well two of them claimed to know nothing of OC and the other two detained me the first time at burger king. Looks like they need some remedial training. |
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T Vance Regular Member
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I forgot to mention that we are having an OC picnic to them in the email and invite them to come on down.  I'll mention it if/when they respond to me. |
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Kimberguy Regular Member
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I invited the LEOs that pulled me over. I'm sure they will be than happy to attend. |
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northofnowhere Activist Member 
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I heart Kimberguy. Did you mention even LEO's can OC at the picnic and should reasonably not be afraid of being arrested by a citizen for said offense? |
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T Vance Regular Member
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I've heard from several LEO's and even read it somewhere that LEO's are not supposed to OC while off duty. Not sure if it is true or not though. It's not like it's illegal.  |
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SpringerXDacp Regular Member 
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T Vance wrote: I've heard from several LEO's and even read it somewhere that LEO's are not supposed to OC while off duty. Not sure if it is true or not though. It's not like it's illegal. It's department policy only, not law. Most, if not all, local PD's and sheriff's departments require off-duty LE to CC. |
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T Vance Regular Member
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SpringerXDacp wrote: It's department policy only, not law. Most, if not all, local PD's and sheriff's departments require off-duty LE to CC.Which begs the question, why do some LEO's ask some people if they are an officer when they see them OCing? |
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Michigander Regular Member 
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T Vance wrote:Which begs the question, why do some LEO's ask some people if they are an officer when they see them OCing? Stupidity and ignorance, as well as any other negative trait a human can possess, know no specific race or profession. |
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MarineSgt Regular Member
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I have seen detectives walking around in street clothes without a badge visible. |
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ghostrider Regular Member 
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Kimberguy wrote: well two of them claimed to know nothing of OC and the other two detained me the first time at burger king. Looks like they need some remedial training. It is a possibility that they were just plain lying, and that they do know that OC is legal. |
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T Vance Regular Member
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I'm sure they know it is legal. Kimberguy held that Bob Evans lunch in Jackson the same weekend I was stopped outside of Target in Jackson. After watching my videos from my stop one of the officers said "we've had a bunch of these calls this weekend". And I'm sure the officers talk to each other at the office and have told each other about stopping people that have been OCing. One of the officers in my incident knew that OC was legal, which means the other 2 for my stop knew it was legal, which means someone at their station is telling ALL of them that it is legal. I think it's time to file a lawsuit! |
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Springfield Smitty Regular Member 
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T Vance wrote: I think it's time to file a lawsuit! I've never understood this concept of trying to talk to them about it in the first place. If we break the law, we are arrested and charged. When we claim to not know the law, we are told that ignorance is no excuse. Why are we not holding the LEO to the same standard? I think it is ridiculous to think that "education" should be the first action anyway. This is just my opinion and I am certain I am wrong, so no need to berate me on why I am. I accept the fact and need not be told. |
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T Vance Regular Member
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I agree and disagree with you Smitty. I think everyone needs to have the chance to be educated about certain things before being held accountable for their actions. But I also think that "law enforcement officers" should be liable for knowing ALL the laws that pertain to the area (i.e. city, county, state) they work in, or at least radio in to someone that knows more about a certain law before detaining/arresting someone. I'm sure most people don't feel like spending time and money in court, but if they have had numerous encounters pertaining to OC they should know the law by now, and need to be held accountable for violating certain peoples rights. |
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Kimberguy Regular Member
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ok, i like having my own thread.... this might be useful... went to Home Depot, as usual nothing... went to Menard's, a lot of people i know there.... nothing, until i went out into the parking lot. I'm driving away and this dude is checking out my truck.... now thos of you who know I am very proud of my truck and i like when ppl notice it. I opened my window because he kept looking back at me, when I did he said "Open carry right?" i get happy, and reply "Yeah" "You know that is CCW rite now right? I'm a cop and i'm calling you in to report you" now, i should have realized who he was. I replied, "I have my CPL as well." "then i'm reporting you to the gun board, didn't you get the warning?" i think when i mentioned my CPL and when he made that last comment we both realized who eachother were. I'm 95% sure it was officer Paul Albrich or however you spell it... Jackson City police. And i'm pretty sure he knew who i was, that explains why he was checking out the back of my truck, he wasn't looking at my paint job, he was checking out my plate... I'm pretty pissed, i seriously think the guy is following me. I will be at cascades tonight for anyone who wishes to join me. i'll be there in the next hour or so. |
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Veritas Regular Member 
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northofnowhere wrote: I heart Kimberguy. Did you mention even LEO's can OC at the picnic and should reasonably not be afraid of being arrested by a citizen for said offense?Most PD's require officers to CC when not on duty. When you accept privileges, you sometimes waive rights. |
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Veritas Regular Member
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T Vance wrote: SpringerXDacp wrote:Probably because not every PD requires officers to conceal while off duty... or perhaps they believe you may be a plain clothes officer and your badge is not visible.It's department policy only, not law. Most, if not all, local PD's and sheriff's departments require off-duty LE to CC.Which begs the question, why do some LEO's ask some people if they are an officer when they see them OCing? And also, likely, because LEO's tend to look out for eachother. While they may be quick to judge a citizen, they're often more likely to help out a fellow officer. I was riding with an officer buddy once (off duty) who was pulled over for speeding. He flashed his MCOLES card and was released with no further incident. |
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Michigander Regular Member
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Kimberguy wrote: I'm pretty pissed, i seriously think the guy is following me. Every time I get harassed by police, I complain to the chief. If I had reason to believe the chief is also corrupt or otherwise out of hand, I'd go to the city council and the mayor, or maybe the FBI. Not saying I know this situation well enough to make a suggestion about what you should specifically do, but I do suggest you don't take crap off the guy. We can only blame ourselves for problems with the police. They work for us, and when they screw with us, we need to clean up the mess we allowed them to create. Last edited on Fri Jul 3rd, 2009 11:02 pm by Michigander |
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Veritas Regular Member
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Kimberguy wrote: ok, i like having my own thread.... this might be useful... went to Home Depot, as usual nothing... went to Menard's, a lot of people i know there.... nothing, until i went out into the parking lot. I'm driving away and this dude is checking out my truck.... now thos of you who know I am very proud of my truck and i like when ppl notice it. I opened my window because he kept looking back at me, when I did he said "Open carry right?" i get happy, and reply "Yeah" "You know that is CCW rite now right? I'm a cop and i'm calling you in to report you" now, i should have realized who he was. I replied, "I have my CPL as well." "then i'm reporting you to the gun board, didn't you get the warning?" i think when i mentioned my CPL and when he made that last comment we both realized who eachother were. I'm 95% sure it was officer Paul Albrich or however you spell it... Jackson City police. And i'm pretty sure he knew who i was, that explains why he was checking out the back of my truck, he wasn't looking at my paint job, he was checking out my plate...Sorry to hear that. Yesterday, I was at the shopping complex on Telegraph and 12 Mile (I believe) in Southfield. I parked between the Meijer and the Home Depot (or is it Lowes? I don't remember) because I needed to make stops at both. When I walked back out to my vehicle, there were two Southfield parking enforcement officers ticking the car next to mine (they were parked in a handicap with no sticker). I thought for sure they would have said something to me. I loaded up my vehicle and left. They didn't say anything to me. Whether or not he saw my gun, one of them did nod to me. |
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Nutczak Regular Member 
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Kimberguy wrote: ok, i like having my own thread.... this might be useful... went to Home Depot, as usual nothing... went to Menard's, a lot of people i know there.... nothing, until i went out into the parking lot. I'm driving away and this dude is checking out my truck.... now thos of you who know I am very proud of my truck and i like when ppl notice it. I opened my window because he kept looking back at me, when I did he said "Open carry right?" i get happy, and reply "Yeah" "You know that is CCW rite now right? I'm a cop and i'm calling you in to report you" now, i should have realized who he was. I replied, "I have my CPL as well." "then i'm reporting you to the gun board, didn't you get the warning?" i think when i mentioned my CPL and when he made that last comment we both realized who eachother were. I'm 95% sure it was officer Paul Albrich or however you spell it... Jackson City police. And i'm pretty sure he knew who i was, that explains why he was checking out the back of my truck, he wasn't looking at my paint job, he was checking out my plate... I know hindsight is always 20/20, But do you feel stopping and conversing with this clown would have gotten anywhere? Maybe why he is taking it upon himself to harrass you for exercising a protected right! Was he off-duty? Seems to me he is going out of his way to be a douche! Some people are a little "off" in the way they think. I would have someone you know tail you with an active vid camera running at all times when your in town, watching the video may show someone following you that you may not notice in real-time. Collect as much evidence as you can of this possible stalker and consider getting representaion to nail him on harrassment or denial of rights charges. |
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ghostrider Regular Member
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Kimberguy wrote: ok, i like having my own thread.... this might be useful... went to Home Depot, as usual nothing... went to Menard's, a lot of people i know there.... nothing, until i went out into the parking lot. I'm driving away and this dude is checking out my truck.... now thos of you who know I am very proud of my truck and i like when ppl notice it. I opened my window because he kept looking back at me, when I did he said "Open carry right?" i get happy, and reply "Yeah" "You know that is CCW rite now right? I'm a cop and i'm calling you in to report you" now, i should have realized who he was. I replied, "I have my CPL as well." "then i'm reporting you to the gun board, didn't you get the warning?" i think when i mentioned my CPL and when he made that last comment we both realized who eachother were. I'm 95% sure it was officer Paul Albrich or however you spell it... Jackson City police. And i'm pretty sure he knew who i was, that explains why he was checking out the back of my truck, he wasn't looking at my paint job, he was checking out my plate...Who is Officer Paul Albrich, and what is his significance too this story? It sounds like you are being harassed. Chasing you down while in plain cloths, threatening to report you for CCW, and then to the gun board is nothing less than coercion. They know what they are doing is wrong, they just don’t care because they have no reason to stop. Either they don’t want you OC’ing, or they just don’t like you, or both. Chances are they’ll keep doing this until they either find a reason to bust you, or you take action to stop them. By that I do mean suing them. Complaining is obviously something they have little remorse over (they probably think it’s pathetic, and laugh at you for it. That’s the general reaction when officers get complaints over stuff like this. They get a slap on the wrist with a wink and a nod, and then go right back to doing whatever it was that garnered the complaint in the first place). Interesting the comment, “…didn't you get the warning?”. He is the one who should have "gotten the warning". Could this be a reference to the past harassment, and the warning being the unsaid message that if OC doesn’t stop, then they are going to make it unpleasant for anyone who chooses to do so? I'm guessing "yes". These are not the type of people you “educate”. Truthfully, your better off if they remain ignorant since they’ll only use whatever education you provide them to better bust you with. They are not some misguided soul who needs your benevolent guidance. They are thugs who want nothing more than to find a way to make life so difficult for you that you stop, and that includes finding a way to take your freedom. The more ignorant the remain, the more mistakes they will make, and the easier your case will be. The more you "educate" them, the more possibility of your case becoming more difficult. Before sending of another letter to the Chief, or IA, ask a lawyer if that's what he/she would have you do.I'm guessing not. I understand not wanting to sue the police. Not everyone has the financial means to do it, and even then, not everyone is in a position to do so. However, They clearly have gotten the message that your actions are legal, and they have decided to harass you regardless. They don't care about your rights. All they care about is making sure you know to bow down to them when they say so. I hope everything works out for you. Just be careful. |
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cabman1 Regular Member
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Looks like we have to pour it on strong on the 19th at cascades!!!!!! |
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Generaldet Regular Member 
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If its true that he is following you, then you should just follow him. I would. At the very least it'll make his job of tracking you down easier. lol  |
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Venator Regular Member 
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T Vance wrote: I sent the following to the Chief of Police for the City of Jackson as well as to Lt. Jim Shaw of the Michigan State Police Post #17 in Jackson. This has to stop, I have been in contact with the Jackson PD and they know damn well OC is legal. I was told that their officers have been briefed on this as well. If they keep this up a class action suit is in order. Several of the people that have been harassed in the last month should get together and think about a federal suit. |
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Kimberguy Regular Member
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i'm all for a federal suit.... it is just the money, though i'm sure it would be less than the Gucci I want. |
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