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HankT
State Researcher
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Posted: Sun Sep 27th, 2009 12:17 am |
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GoldCoaster wrote: I'd sooner trust the word of a hard working gun dealer than a JBT from the BATFE.
GoldCoaster wrote:
I'd give Larry the benefit of the doubt before an ATF agent.
One interesting and major question in this thread is whether Larry McCoy is innocent or guilty or not guilty.
Your trusting his word as a gun dealer or your giving him the benefit of the doubt doesn't inform on what your opinion is on whether he is innocent/guilty/not guilty.
It just says you don't like ATF.
GC, if you don't think that McCoy is innocent, is your opinion that he is guilty (but that you hate the ATF)?
P.S. How many FFLs are there in the U.S. Anybody know?
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GoldCoaster
Regular Member
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Posted: Sun Sep 27th, 2009 12:56 am |
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I don't know Hank, and because I don't know, I can't render an opinion on whether he's guilty or innocent. I do however believe that the ATF is an out of control agency who go out of their way to persecute (not just prosecute) FFL's. Why they do this I have no idea.
It would be like the FAA going after all the commercial carriers and shutting them down one by one. I guess that would make the skies safer if all the carriers were shut down but it sure would make travel harder.
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HankT
State Researcher
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Posted: Sun Sep 27th, 2009 01:25 am |
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GoldCoaster wrote: I don't know Hank, and because I don't know, I can't render an opinion on whether he's guilty or innocent. I do however believe that the ATF is an out of control agency who go out of their way to persecute (not just prosecute) FFL's. Why they do this I have no idea.
I don't know if McCoy is guilty/innocent/not guilty either. I would kind of lean toward the guilty option based on the spare details that have been posted here. Since this is only a discussion forum, and not a court of law, it's OK to state an an opinion such as that.
I can lean toward thinking McCoy is guilty and hate the ATF at the same time for its past transgressions against the law and law abiding citizens. Actually, it's useful to be able to do that.
GoldCoaster wrote: It would be like the FAA going after all the commercial carriers and shutting them down one by one. I guess that would make the skies safer if all the carriers were shut down but it sure would make travel harder.
No. It's not like that at all. Not at all.
Anyone know how many FFLs are out there now? Perhaps a better question is how many legitimate firearms dealers there are. Those are the ones that the ATF is really after, eh?
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HungSquirrel
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| Location: | Mobile, Alabama USA |
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Posted: Sun Sep 27th, 2009 05:50 pm |
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HankT wrote:
One interesting and major question in this thread is whether Larry McCoy is innocent or guilty or not guilty.
The question assumes activities in which no harm is done constitute "crimes". If no one was harmed, there is no guilt to be had.
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KBCraig
Regular Member
| Joined: | Tue Aug 7th, 2007 |
| Location: | Northeast Texas |
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Posted: Mon Sep 28th, 2009 01:16 am |
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HankT wrote: GoldCoaster wrote: I'd sooner trust the word of a hard working gun dealer than a JBT from the BATFE.
GoldCoaster wrote:
I'd give Larry the benefit of the doubt before an ATF agent.
One interesting and major question in this thread is whether Larry McCoy is innocent or guilty or not guilty.
You're the only one in this thread asking that question, but you seem dissatisfied with the replies, which consistently say, "I don't know." Which, by the bye, is what you yourself say.
Here's my answer: I don't know whether he's actually guilty or not. But unlike you, I do believe that he is innocent until proven guilty. Unlike you, I don't take press reports (which are little more than re-written government press releases), and presume that he's "probably guilty".
Anyone know how many FFLs are out there now?
According to this article, in 2007 there were 109,000 FFLs. That is not the number of dealers, because it's the total of all classes of licensees.
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GoldCoaster
Regular Member
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Posted: Mon Sep 28th, 2009 01:53 am |
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KBCraig wrote: HankT wrote: GoldCoaster wrote: I'd sooner trust the word of a hard working gun dealer than a JBT from the BATFE.
GoldCoaster wrote:
I'd give Larry the benefit of the doubt before an ATF agent.
One interesting and major question in this thread is whether Larry McCoy is innocent or guilty or not guilty.
You're the only one in this thread asking that question, but you seem dissatisfied with the replies, which consistently say, "I don't know." Which, by the bye, is what you yourself say.
Here's my answer: I don't know whether he's actually guilty or not. But unlike you, I do believe that he is innocent until proven guilty. Unlike you, I don't take press reports (which are little more than re-written government press releases), and presume that he's "probably guilty".
Anyone know how many FFLs are out there now?
According to this article, in 2007 there were 109,000 FFLs. That is not the number of dealers, because it's the total of all classes of licensees.
That's our Hank! I'll repeat something once, after that it's not worth the effort to type it in.
If the FFL was entrapped but had no way of knowing, then it's not a fair test of the system, if all they got him for was putting the wrong number in the wrong box or something, it's hardly fair to shut him down because of it.
I guess we will have to all wait and see won't we.
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dixieborn
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Posted: Tue Sep 29th, 2009 05:26 am |
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After reading about this, KB brought up the point that I think is most relevant. Of course no one knows at this point whether he is innocent or guilty...
The point is that he is presumed to be innocent until proven guilty. This is where the government has crossed the line. They have already brought down punishment and consequences, those consequences possibly being irreversible even if he is found innocent! That is not right.
That is what I would deem fishy about the whole thing.
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KBCraig
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Posted: Tue Sep 29th, 2009 06:55 am |
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I won't bother hunting up cites, because there have been multiple reports over the years, where FFLs have been "stung" by undercover tapes of "straw purchases". The audio portion of those tapes was key, because it could be clearly heard that the "actual purchaser" was directing the "pseudo-purchaser".
Trouble is, it could be heard on the tape, because they were wearing the wires and standing directly together as they talked, well out of earshot of the clerk.
So, I automatically treat with suspicion any ATF claims about a straw man sting, unless the clerk or FFL conducting the transaction actively acknowledges knowing it's improper.
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jaegan
Regular Member
| Joined: | Tue May 1st, 2007 |
| Location: | Kentucky USA |
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Posted: Tue Oct 6th, 2009 09:56 am |
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ATF apparently likes this tactic, but it doesn't always (completely)* work for them:
http://www.thetimestribune.com/local/local_story_267084407.html
http://www.thetimestribune.com/local/local_story_268082624.html
http://www.thetimestribune.com/local/local_story_269091816.html
Short version is they pulled the same crap with a local gun store here in KY. The owners were eventually exonerated.
*I qualified this statement because event though the owners were cleared, they were essentially put out of business, so depending on what you view as the ATF motive the argument exists that ATF still got what they wanted.
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HankT
State Researcher
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Posted: Tue Oct 6th, 2009 02:33 pm |
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KBCraig wrote: HankT wrote: GoldCoaster wrote: I'd sooner trust the word of a hard working gun dealer than a JBT from the BATFE.
GoldCoaster wrote:
I'd give Larry the benefit of the doubt before an ATF agent.
One interesting and major question in this thread is whether Larry McCoy is innocent or guilty or not guilty.
You're the only one in this thread asking that question, but you seem dissatisfied with the replies, which consistently say, "I don't know." Which, by the bye, is what you yourself say.
Here's my answer: I don't know whether he's actually guilty or not. But unlike you, I do believe that he is innocent until proven guilty. Unlike you, I don't take press reports (which are little more than re-written government press releases), and presume that he's "probably guilty".
Hmm, first you state that my position is that "I don't know" whether Larry McCoy is innocent or guilty or not guilty.
Then you suggest that that I presme he is "probably guilty." I don't think I said that, KBC. Did I? Perhaps I missed it.
In a court of law, we have the innocent until proven guilty concept. And I believe in that system. But on a discussion forum, we can kick things around and speculate on an informal basis what the reality of reported events is. We have to do that with some healthy levels of logic and rationality. But we're not subject to the strict rules of the criminal justice adjudication process here. We must, of course, make reasonable statements and arguments. Such as quoting correctly...
Thanks for the info on the FFLs.
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KBCraig
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Posted: Thu Oct 8th, 2009 04:14 am |
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HankT wrote: Hmm, first you state that my position is that "I don't know" whether Larry McCoy is innocent or guilty or not guilty.
Then you suggest that that I presme he is "probably guilty." I don't think I said that, KBC. Did I? Perhaps I missed it.
Perhaps you did. Here, let me refresh your memory with your earlier quotes (emphasis added):
Did Larry McCoy sell a gun to a prohibited person in violation of law? I don't know for sure, but I'd tend to guess....yes.
I don't know if McCoy is guilty/innocent/not guilty either. I would kind of lean toward the guilty option based on the spare details that have been posted here.
So yes, Hank, you have stated that you think he's probably guilty. You're not nearly so clever a writer that the spirit of your words can be denied through a literal reading.
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rodbender
Founder's Club Member
| Joined: | Mon Jun 23rd, 2008 |
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Posted: Fri Oct 9th, 2009 12:47 pm |
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ATF has been pulling this kind of crap since GCA 68 came to life. Had a FFL in Houston was procecuted 3 times and not one guilty verdict. Once they get it in for you, they will not stop until you are bankrupt. That was back in about 1972.
It all started when 4 guys came in to rob him and he killed 3 and the other lost an arm and a leg. He used his legally owned and legally registered M16 and a 12 gauge. Using the M16 was the part they didn't like and they told him so.
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GoldCoaster
Regular Member
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Posted: Fri Oct 9th, 2009 03:30 pm |
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Well if that's not a good use for an M16 I don't know what is. There are 3 perps who will never rob again and one more that won't rob again without the use of prosthetics.
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