|
|
|
OpenCarry.org - Discussion Forum > Stories From The States > Virginia > At gunpoint and in cuffs in downtown Norfolk
|
|
||
| OpenCarry.org - Discussion Forum > Stories From The States > Virginia > At gunpoint and in cuffs in downtown Norfolk
|
|||
| Moderated by: jpierce | ||
| Author | Post | |||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
danbus Regular Member 
|
I wanted to hold off my story until I got it resolved, but I must get it off my chest since I have no one else to talk to. Again this is MY side of the story. This event occured 6/29/07 approx 4:55pm. I was going to pick up a friend who works at a bank call center in downtown Norfolk. I decided to park my car at a meter and wait across the street since my car didn't have any AC and it was cooler outside. Of course you know I was OCing. Approximately 5pm, a security guard walked past me. I felt that he was getting a closer look. One minute later, ANOTHER guard walked past me to get a closer look. Now both of these guards didn't look me in the eyes, so I knew deep down, it was going to hit the fan. I checked to see what one of the guards was doing, and I noticed one of them was on a cell phone looking directly at me so I kinda knew what the call was about. So I thought to myself, "I wonder how long it would take them to get here through all of this traffic?". Then I thought, "who cares?". I then heard sirens. They seemed quite far. As time went by slowly in my mind, I could hear them getting closer and closer. Next thing I know I see a squad car turn down a street and I thought, "oh there they are". Next thing happened was quite a surprise. Ready? A officer came around the corner with his glock 19 drawn pointing at my chest. LEO1 - TURN AROUND AND PUT YOUR HANDS ON THE WALL!!! Me - Um, am I under arrest? LEO1 - PUT YOUR HANDS ON THE WALL!!! I did what I was told, seeing that I couldn't convince him otherwise. He approached slowly and I wasn't sure who put the cuffs on. Then came the questioning. LEO1 - What are you doing? LEO2 - Why are you carrying a gun? Me - I'm... LEO1 - Why is it loaded and cocked? LEO2 - Do you have a permit to carry that? Me - It's a 1911, it supposed to be carried in cocked and locked and I'm open carrying it, I don't need a permit. LEO2 - Do you realize you are standing near a bank with a gun? What are you doing? Me - Now I know you are just doing your job, but I'm not answering your questions without a lawyer present. (at this point I was pissed). LEO2 - Fine. (he then reaches into my pocket to get my wallet and get my ID) Me - I didn't consent to you searching me. LEO2 - I'm getting your ID. Me - Again, I didn't consent to a search. (meanwhile the other officer is glaring at my 1911) Me - I don't consent to the seizure of my firearm. LEO2 - You know carrying around a gun like this, especially in front of the bank is going to get attention and you got it. And what's with this hat, "Black man with a gun"? You are really looking for attention. Me - I like to exercise my 1st and 2nd Amendment rights. So I'm being detained? LEO2 - Yup. Me - And why am I in cuffs again? I didn't do anything illegal. LEO2 - For our safety. Me - And mine. LEO2 - You know that if you even cover up your firearm, it would be concealed and we could arrest you. Me - Yeah....and that's why I'm carrying it openly. While LEO2 when to "check my papers", I tried to make small talk with LEO1. Asking him how was his day going, what caliber glock do you guys carry, general stuff. And I could tell he wasn't happy. I felt that he KNEW I wasn't doing anything wrong, especially since he was giving me 1 word answers. I then overheard over his radio that the call was for a man carrying in plain sight. So I wanted to ask the ultimate question that I wanted to know the answer to. Me - So, uh, after you guys let me go, what are you going to do? LEO1 -  My friend came out the building and instructed friend to wait by the car. LEO2 came back and took the cuffs off. Me - So I'm free to go? LEO1 & 2 - Me - Thank you officers, have a great day! Before LEO2 could even gather enough breathe to say something (trying to get in the last word)... Me - Thank you, have a great day! LEO2 started to walk me with me trying to get the last word. LEO2 - You know that there are certain places where you cannot carry that? Me - Already know that, have a great day!! LEO2 - Now, I'm going down to the Norfolk Police Admin office to file a complaint and try to get a FOIA. Well see what happens then. Now...the bad news... After I got back to the car, I couldn't find my friend. My friend was waiting a block away and down another street. My friend said somethings that made me feel that my friend didn't support me. The things my friend said made me feel that it would have been better to be shot dead than live with the words and actions my friend did. I took my friend home and got into a heated debate. I left with the knowledge that my friend doesn't have my back 100% even thought said friend claimed they did. It's hard knowing that the people who say they support you 100% in anything you do only show 60% action. Not only that, my Dad doesn't support me. I haven't told him what happened yesterday, but he believes that guns should only be kept in the house. But he's all for going to the range and gun rights. It doesn't make logical sense to me. I don't care what other people think, but it saddens me to hear it from friends and family. Alas, I won't let the hurt ruin my ways of spreading the word of OC. I will ALWAYS carry openly (with a few exceptions). Unlike those who frown on OC, I'm doing something to educate and desensitize the public. I welcome all positive and negative feedback. Thanks in advance! |
|||||||||
|
psmartin Regular Member
|
The "BMWAG" hat is funny, although it didn't help your cause... But you probably would have been read the riot act anyways. I just finished my "internal affairs" investigation with Henrico, and although it was ruled the officer did nothing "wrong"(I beg to differ) I at least know my opinion has been heard. You'll probably be able to waste "internal affairs" time, but please press the issue. Just the opportunity to waste their time means we win. Cut your friends some slack, if they don't agree with you.. fine.. Differing opinions make for great conversations. One thing I don't get... Why are some cops so stupid about a holstered gun? After all, how often to criminals OC when commiting their crimes? NEVER -- DING DING DING -- What prize did you win? |
|||||||||
|
CPerdue Regular Member
|
Dude, This well and truly sucks. I've had cops misbehave but never like that ... you did awesome. If you are ever passing thru Roanoke, IM me and I'll buy. That said, the bit with the friend is worse - gut punch. My wife gave me hell for exercising my rights once. She was not so much unsupportive of me as terrified of losing me. Hope this helps, C. |
|||||||||
|
cs9c1 Regular Member 
|
Man you have the damnedest luck  . Sorry to hear you were detained, but glad to hear it didn't go any further. |
|||||||||
|
Tomahawk Regular Member 
|
Boy the fun never ends around here. I bet your hat pissed him off because what is says is exactly what he was thinking when he rolled up on you, and he doesn't like being called out by a hat. |
|||||||||
|
TrueBrit Regular Member 
|
One day, the penny may drop in the minds of these asinine cops! BAD GUYS DO NOT OPEN CARRY! Insist on an abject apology from all concerned, or sue their asses off! Do us all a favour, Sir,if you will, and hold the feet of these idiots to the fire! Your choice of headgear is your own business, and the police are not paid to opine. They need to be reminded from time to time that they are our servants,and that they police with the consent of the people. Yet more "officer safety" bull@#$%! How safe do these pantywaists need to be? I am usually very supportive of LEOs,as long as they behave themselves in a professional and courteous manner, which is not the case here, seemingly. Maybe talk to the VCDL guys? They will have advice aplenty, I am sure. Let us know what happens. TrueBrit. Last edited on Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 11:12 pm by TrueBrit |
|||||||||
|
Tomahawk Regular Member
|
TrueBrit wrote: BAD GUYS DO NOT OPEN CARRY! But someday, one of them might. Especially if OC becomes as commonplace as we'd like to see. We have to be prepared to deal with the fallout from that, just as we need to prepare for the day a permit-holder commits a crime. That's why I believe in judging based on actions. Rather than "Does he have a gun?" ask "What is he doing with his gun?". Last edited on Sun Jul 1st, 2007 01:32 am by Tomahawk |
|||||||||
|
Reverend73 Founder's Club Member
|
Dan, I don't know what to say. This royally pisses me off. When you go to the station to file the complaint, I would like to go with you if you'd like the moral support. And a white friend, lol . I support you 100% Brian |
|||||||||
|
para_org Regular Member
|
I just wish I could be a wallflower when you come-a-calling for the FOIA stuff. Good job sir, my hat's off to you. |
|||||||||
|
Mike Super Moderator
|
I have OCed several times in a neighborhood Sun trust bank without incident except them pestering me to open an account there. I just walk in with a $20 in my carry hand and stand in line to get a couple rolls of quarters, then I leave, never to any awaiting police welcome  |
|||||||||
|
cato Regular Member 
|
Danbus, Any chance this was captured on CCTV from any business? Go and complain for sure. And have you joined VCDL yet? Talk to their lawyers if you can. Handcuffed for no crime is most definitely a 4th amendment issue. And make a FBI complaint this time. They took you wallet and searched your ID electronically without consent! OCers MUST start carrying a digital audio recorder if legal in your state. It will make for a slam dunk complaint or law suit. Then when the officer lies during an investigation you've gott'em by the balls. These harassments will stop once someone looses their job and a city is sued for $$$$$$$, but you need proof! No proof means the OCer looses every time. OCers, GO BUY AUDIO RECORDERS! YOUR FREEDOM MAY SOME DAY RELY ON IT. IT SHOULD BE AS STANDARD AS A SPARE MAG! Last edited on Sun Jul 1st, 2007 02:24 am by cato |
|||||||||
|
openryan State Researcher 
|
Danbus, Seems like you are always getting the short end of the stick  -- sorry about your misfortune.I agree with the others, you need to fight this, I believe you have a case, exceptionally so if it is on CCTV. |
|||||||||
|
OC-Glock19 Founder's Club Member 
|
Holy crap, Dan. Sorry you got treated that way. I hate to say it, but it's becoming more and more evident to me that LEOs really do profile based on color. I had an errand at my bank yesterday and I walked in with my 1911 cocked and locked. I had three transactions, so I was there for several minutes, and other than initial glances at my holstered handgun nobody paid me any undue attention. I'm lily white. I guess color still makes a difference in the way people treat us. (sigh) I realize that you're losing more sleep over the way your friend treated you than the way you were treated by the police, so I just wanted to say that people's prejudices against open carry run deep too, and it will take time to turn the tide. I hope you can maintain your friendship with this person in spite of your differences. Kyle |
|||||||||
|
TrueBrit Regular Member
|
Tomahawk wrote: TrueBrit wrote:BAD GUYS DO NOT OPEN CARRY! It is indeed a possibility that a BG may OC one day,unlikely as it seems to me at present.But the point that you make about judging based on actions is a valid one that the cops and soccer mommies ought to take on board. TrueBrit. |
|||||||||
|
OCed H and K Regular Member 
|
Good luck, hit em where it hurts! On a sidenote I think it's hilarious that you wear that hat in your day to day activities, I thought you only wore it for OC dinners. |
|||||||||
|
Kevin108 Regular Member 
|
cato wrote:
Can you use such a device without consent? |
|||||||||
|
Tomahawk Regular Member
|
I wonder if I can get a shirt that says, "I support black men with guns"... That would be a conversation-starter! |
|||||||||
|
Gray Peterson State Researcher 
|
Depends on the state. Though Washington is a "all party notify" state, this doesn't not apply to police encounters. |
|||||||||
|
para_org Regular Member
|
Kevin108 wrote: cato wrote:In some states yea and others no. In NM if ONE person/party in a conversation knows about the recording, it is a legal recording. |
|||||||||
|
BobCav Founder's Club Member 
|
Tomahawk wrote: I wonder if I can get a shirt that says, "I support black men with guns"... LMAO! You might start more than a conversation! Maybe something you can't finish! Perhaps a couple letters to the Chief of Police stating how we are quite unhappy with way Open Carriers are being brutalized by the Police Force and that perhaps they will be seeing a whole lot more of us. And yes, this is a test. And yes, they are being graded. Threatening with the lawful exercise of one's rights is only a threat to those who would suppress those rights and not actually a threat at all. danbus, one day I'm gonna get my ass down there, shake your hand and buy you lunch. I give you all the credit for keeping your cool and being on the front lines! |
|||||||||
|
Tomahawk Regular Member
|
I think we owe him more than lunch. Maybe a new hat...(just kidding) |
|||||||||
|
denwego Regular Member
|
I can't believe how you manage to keep your cool after all the crap you've gotten for OCing, Danbus. It's a blight on America that you get singled out for your race while carrying... I suppose people who are comfortable with robbing someone of one constitutional right is comfortable with robbing someone of all of them. My hat's off to you, sir! Last edited on Sun Jul 1st, 2007 05:43 am by denwego |
|||||||||
|
longwatch Founder's Club Member 
|
Strangely I can imagine Danbus is getting used to the harrassment. Not to say he enjoys it, but he is getting experienced at handling these things. I've noticed in myself that I'm less jittery about LEO encounters after Tonys and Burke Lake. He is a salty hand at this point, we should be asking him what to do in these encounters. |
|||||||||
|
Bulldog1967 Regular Member 
|
Kevin108 wrote: cato wrote: As long as one person givers permission (you, obviously) I believe you are well within you rights to do so. http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/2005/11/30/m-audio-microtrack-review.html Last edited on Sun Jul 1st, 2007 06:27 am by Bulldog1967 |
|||||||||
|
Hawkflyer Founder's Club Member 
|
Danbus, While we have never met in person, I do look forward to that day. Clearly, you are engaged in a civil rights battle, that those of us who are "unmistakably white" are not. But in this cause you are not alone. While color may matter to the police, I have not met anyone from this forum that holds that view. We here are all brothers in arms. You have more support than you know. As for this situation, because they actually handcuffed you, you are in the unique position of have been the subject of a false arrest. The act was willful as both officers KNEW in advance that OC was legal. While they might reasonably have conducted a "Terry" stop (you were sitting outside a bank after all), they did not have the right to actually arrest and handcuff you for that purpose. A civil suit against the police department and the two Officers in this case would be almost a slam dunk. You probably could find a lawyer that would take the case on contingency, so the cost to you would only be the time to pursue the matter. Check with the bank and see if their ATM camera caught the action and also see if the police had cameras and voice recorders in their cars. Start by filing the complaint with the police WITH a FOIA for any recordings (video or audio) to stop them from deleting any that exist. Also contact your local FBI office and file a complaint with them for a color of office violation, and have them seize any recordings. That will really get them to think about what they are doing. I sincerely hope you drive these guys into the ground like tent pegs. But remember, you are not alone. Many of us are prepared to stand ground with you anytime you need us. Just tell us when and where to show up. Regards EDIT: Bulldog is correct. In Virginia only one party is required to consent to a recording, and obviously that person can be the person doing the recording if he/she is also being recorded. Last edited on Sun Jul 1st, 2007 06:43 am by Hawkflyer |
|||||||||
|
TEX1N Regular Member 
|
Kevin108 wrote: cato wrote:OCers, GO BUY AUDIO RECORDERS! YOUR FREEDOM MAY SOME DAY RELY ON IT. IT SHOULD BE AS STANDARD AS A SPARE MAG!Can you use such a device without consent? As other have already said, in VA it is legal to record a conversation if at least one party has consented: VA Code § 19.2-62 2. It shall not be a criminal offense under this chapter for a person to intercept a wire, electronic or oral communication, where such person is a party to the communication or one of the parties to the communication has given prior consent to such interception. |
|||||||||
|
BobCav Founder's Club Member
|
Hawkflyer wrote: Danbus, hehehe....you said "brothers"... Hey how come the brother always gets it first in the movies? Whazzap with that? |
|||||||||
|
Pa. Patriot State Researcher 
|
Kevin108 wrote: Can you use such a device without consent? Not in PA |
|||||||||
|
cs9c1 Regular Member
|
Kevin108 wrote: cato wrote: In VA only one side needs to know. |
|||||||||
|
OC-Glock19 Founder's Club Member
|
If you already own an iPod you only need this to turn it into a digital voice recorder. |
|||||||||
|
para_org Regular Member
|
Amazing...only 30 bucks for a 2 dollar microphone....!! |
|||||||||
|
mattjohnston87 Regular Member
|
para_org wrote: Amazing...only 30 bucks for a 2 dollar microphone....!! But it also has a speaker with it!  |
|||||||||
|
ckpolaris Regular Member 
|
Danbus- Sorry to hear about your latest encounter with the people entrusted by law abiding citizens to not only protect us said citzens, but to know the laws they are sworn to protect. I agree that the cops in question took it way to far, and that something should be done in the way of educating these people. What is sad though, is that stories like this: "Norfolk standoff over as man with gun surrenders" http://content.hamptonroads.com/story.cfm?story=127485&ran=134658 does not help our cause, and probably puts the cops in a higher mode of paranoia regarding legal oc. Not to mention the numurous stories involving gun shootings seen everyday. I'm not saying dont oc. I oc when ever I have the chance. Just trying to shed a different light on the matter. Everday occurances do affect how situations turn out. Who knows, maybe a week ago, this incident (with Danbus) would have never happened... |
|||||||||
|
Hawkflyer Founder's Club Member
|
ckpolaris wrote:...SNIP I am certain you must be aware of the drastic differences between this incident and Danbus's situation. This guy was walking around waiving the gun at people. Danbus was quietly sitting in his car, minding his own business, with a holstered firearm. People had to go out of their way to even see the weapon. There is a big difference, and the police in Danbus's case massively over reacted. Had his friend from the bank simply told the police that he was their to pick them up from work, instead of hiding around the corner a block away, this might have changed the entire situation. Regards |
|||||||||
|
Hawkflyer Founder's Club Member
|
Tomahawk wrote:I think we owe him more than lunch. Maybe a new hat...(just kidding) Nice thought, but I 'm guessing he wouldn't like your taste in hats. Regards |
|||||||||
|
danbus Regular Member
|
Hawkflyer wrote: ckpolaris wrote: 1. I was standing outside of my car, next to a wall (it was too hot to sit in the car, and I wanted to feel the breeze on my face). 2. I asked my friend to wait by the car as soon as they came out. I shall pick up my friend again on Monday at the same time, doing the same thing. But before I do that, I will drop by the Norfolk Police Admin office and file a complaint there. |
|||||||||
|
openryan State Researcher
|
danbus wrote: Hawkflyer wrote:Maybe take off the BMWAG hat?ckpolaris wrote: |
|||||||||
|
ckpolaris Regular Member
|
danbus wrote: Hawkflyer wrote:ckpolaris wrote: I'm not sure where I accused Danbus of doing wrong. I was trying to point out specific incidents that have happened in norfolk recently, that would somewhat excuse why they were acting they way they were. Like I said before, I AGREE with everything people here have said about this incident. The cops, as well as the security guards were wrong. And of course I know that the two incidents were completely different. But how is a cop to know that? |
|||||||||
|
leprechaun117 Regular Member 
|
openryan wrote:
I don't see that happening  |
|||||||||
|
cato Regular Member
|
ckpolaris wrote: But how is a cop to know that? By being paid to know the law and follow the constitution; develop reasonable suspicion to investigate/detain lawfully or probable cause to arrest/cite and knowing the elements of the crime and be able to articulate them. One thing I learned early in my career is not to rush into a conflict/citizen contact unless exigent circumstances dictate. Minus articulable facts, observation and consensual contact is all we have legally. Last edited on Sun Jul 1st, 2007 11:09 pm by cato |
|||||||||
|
pourshot Activist Member 
|
Tomahawk wrote: I think we owe him more than lunch. Maybe a new hat...(just kidding) BMWAL? (Black Man With a Lawyer) |
|||||||||
|
Hawkflyer Founder's Club Member
|
cato wrote:ckpolaris wrote:But how is a cop to know that? +1 |
|||||||||
|
DeadCenter Regular Member 
|
danbus wrote: I wanted to hold off my story until I got it resolved, but I must get it off my chest since I have no one else to talk to. Again this is MY side of the story. Again you amaze me by keeping your cool. Carry on my friend DC |
|||||||||
|
sitedzn Regular Member 
|
oh this is killing me that i probably missed this scene by no more than an hour! i was staying at the sheraton at waterside for a wedding this weekend. i know there were lots of bank buildings across the street (used the BofA elevated cross walk) and figure that's the area he's talking about. i could be (probably am) wrong as this was my first trip to this specific area of Norfolk. i didn't get down there till about 6-6:30. i think my jaw would have dropped just watching Danbus keep his cool. Last edited on Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 02:35 am by sitedzn |
|||||||||
|
unrequited Regular Member 
|
danbus wrote:LEO2 - You know that if you even cover up your firearm, it would be concealed and we could arrest you. ??? How did he know you didn't have a CHP, or he only said this after you didn't have one? Or you're under 21? I'm confused. |
|||||||||
|
lax Regular Member
|
This dude, Charles Moose, got a pile of cash just because the hotel asked to check his room key. Getting any good ideas? http://www.overlawyered.com/2003/09/200_k_for_moose_carding.html |
|||||||||
|
savery Regular Member 
|
There was an administrative law judge around here that almost got 60 million for a lost pair of pants.... but no dice. yet i get sold a lemon boat trailer that could have killed someone (myself included) yet I can't find a lawyer that wants anything to do with it. what's up with this world? you can sue because of your race, you can sue for your pants, but if you genuinely get screwed, you can't do jack! |
|||||||||
|
Tomahawk Regular Member
|
Well, in this case, I think you can make the argument that the cops acted this way because of the man's skin color. They got a call about a black guy with a gun standing around outside a bank and they figured they knew what this was all about, so they went in heavy. I have never sympathized much with those who cry racism, perhaps because I always think of obnoxious asses like Jackson and Sharpton when I hear the word, but every once in a while you hear about an incident that rings the bell. This may be one of them, can't say for sure. Last edited on Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 03:21 am by Tomahawk |
|||||||||
|
openryan State Researcher
|
I am not trying undermine the motives for danbus' open carrying. But quite a few of us here, myself included, are usually well aware of our apprearance and dress professional or at the very least nice clothing, nothing too provocative. Wearing a BMWAG hat but me a little much, and one should at least know that doing such will surely get you some unwanted attention, at least a few strange looks, and probably routine police encounter from concerned 'sheeple'. The police were definately out of line in some of their tactics regarding the handling of this situation, but come on -- when you walk out of the house with a hat like that and a gun in plain view, you have to know what can happen. Personally, knowing the personalities of most of you on the board strictly from readings, I would not be the least bit frightened if any of you approached me, however if I saw someone like this on the street, even if I thought they were not a threat to me, I might create a little distance between us. Again, I am not trying to take the wind out of the sail here, but does nobody feel this way? |
|||||||||
|
TEX1N Regular Member
|
ckpolaris wrote: "Norfolk standoff over as man with gun surrenders" Hey - Danbus made it into the paper!  |
|||||||||
|
Tomahawk Regular Member
|
openryan wrote:
I certainly don't feel that way. His hat is funny to anyone with a sense of humor. As to "what can happen when you walk out with a hat like that and a gun", well, that can happen to you for just walking around with the gun, no hat required. But it's a chance we all take because wearing that gun or that hat is a right, it's not against the law, and we feel like it. In any case, the hat question is a moot point, because the cops were pointing a loaded gun at this man before they even saw the hat! |
|||||||||
|
openryan State Researcher
|
I agree with you on this -- but I am not making the point that the hat caused the police to pull their weapons, but that there would probably be an increased chance of a concerned citizen making a call based on that fact alone. Having a gun pointed at you may just be the procedure when receiving that type of call. I dress however I want when I cc, which is rare. But dress professionally, or at the least a nice outfit so that people will not view me as a threat, but more so in case of a police encounter. Your impression to people will make them judge you very quickly, and if I can change my impression by not saying a word, and being judged solely on my appreance alone (which I do agree is unjust) I am going to take that advantage to avoid misinterpretation. |
|||||||||
|
Tomahawk Regular Member
|
openryan wrote: I agree with you on this -- but I am not making the point that the hat caused the police to pull their weapons, but that there would probably be an increased chance of a concerned citizen making a call based on that fact alone. I actually agree with you to a point; and I dress pretty conservative anyway. But, comon', it's not like he was wearing a Che Guevarra or Cop-Killa' hat or something. I think it's pretty funny. |
|||||||||
|
openryan State Researcher
|
I think it is funny as well, and if he was concealed carrying while wearing that hat, he most likely would never have had a second look or police encounter. But from a person walking down the street -- even if it was Jerry Seinfeld, he may be concerned, as he does not know the true intent of danbus, political activism I suppose, as well as excercising his 2A RIGHT (do want anyone to think I am bashing what danbus is trying to accomplish, as I think it is a noble cause). |
|||||||||
|
TrueBrit Regular Member
|
Tomahawk wrote: openryan wrote:I agree with you on this -- but I am not making the point that the hat caused the police to pull their weapons, but that there would probably be an increased chance of a concerned citizen making a call based on that fact alone. My friend of the Native American cutlery and I have had fun sparring with each other over hats, OC dress etc,here and in another thread, but our comrade Danbus and his troubles is a serious matter, I believe. My personal belief is that he should be able to wear any hat that he wishes to. I, like Tomahawk, am a little cynical when I see Sharpton, Jackson etc unashamedly playing the race card to advance their questionable agenda. Nonetheless, it is unconscionable to me that a gentleman of colour, like Danbus, should be criticised by cops over his choice of headgear while OCing. It also troubles me that he may well have been profiled, in the true sense of the word. I congratulate him on his handling of the situation, and, one day soon, would like to visit, and OC with him. A funny- talking white guy accompanying a black guy, both OC ing ! Maybe INSIDE the bloody bank!That ought to F-ck with the minds of the Keystone Cops up there!Especially if I wear the Aussie stock contractor gear that Tomahawk admires so much! Good luck to Danbus, and more power to him! TrueBrit. |
|||||||||
|
AbNo Regular Member 
|
openryan wrote:Wearing a BMWAG hat but me a little much, and one should at least know that doing such will surely get you some unwanted attention, at least a few strange looks, and probably routine police encounter from concerned 'sheeple'. Attention, maybe. I have a couple of Protest Warrior shirts, but I don't think that means I should be cuffed because I might rob a bank with a sword. This one specifically... http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/5821/pwlogoph1.jpg (Yaa! Spam!) Couple that with the fact that BMWAG is a blog ( http://blackmanwithagun.com/ ), and you've got a bit of a shaky argument there. I mean, if I had a shirt with my friend LindaSOG's blog name on it, it wouldn't be much different. Well, that and she doesn't call it "Middle Aged Jewish Chick with a Gun".... That being said, I should get a shirt (I don't wear hats) that says "Fuzzy man with a Gun." Uht, and actually, she's apparently armed now! http://www.lindasog.com/archives/2007/07/gay_rights.html And despite the article title, no she's not gay. |
|||||||||
|
Scheetz Regular Member 
|
Wow Danbus, you sure have a nack for pulling in the police. I am amazed that you can keep your calm. I would not have even said a word when told to put my hands on the car. I just would have followed the command. With that hold up in Norfolk. Kinda funny, I passed by that area no less than 2 hours before that guy was out there. That road is a cut through for me to school after a good night at the bar.  And no I do not carry when I drink, and yes I have a DD. |
|||||||||
|
mercutio545 Regular Member 
|
If you have a voice recorder, and they detain you and turn it off, what can you do about that? Are they allowed to turn it off? |
|||||||||
|
Doug Huffman Regular Member 
|
Are they allowed to turn it off? After all, it is for their 'safety.' Safety is a good tool for tyrants since no one can be against safety. Safety is a state of mind, like Condition Yellow, and cannot be purchased or legislated. Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA KMA$$ |
|||||||||
|
markand Regular Member 
|
mercutio545 wrote: If you have a voice recorder, and they detain you and turn it off, what can you do about that? Are they allowed to turn it off? If you have a cell phone, try calling yourself and see if you can leave yourself a message. If your cell provider and phone permit, you can program a speed dial number and have a means of recording a conversation that police can't tamper with. The recording isn't in your phone, its stored by your cell provider. Alternatively, call a number that has the ability to record your conversation and won't be answered when you are out and about. I use my home office number. A Bluetooth ear piece, even if it is in your pocket, has an excellent, sensitive microphone. It will take quite a while for it to be detected that your phone is on. Push the speed dial button at the beginning of an encounter and put the phone in your pocket. |
|||||||||
|
Hawkflyer Founder's Club Member
|
While I understand the point, this idea that a person should not wear a specific hat just because they are armed is ridiculous. Like Tomahawk I think it is funny to anyone with a sense of humor. But there is a more important issue here. If wearing a particular hat with a message on it attracts police attention, then that police force needs to be disbanded, or the officer involved needs to be fired outright. This is the US. The First amendment stands along side the second. Frankly the BMWAG hat is nothing more than truth in advertising in this case. The fact that the police even mentioned the hat in this encounter, opens the door to a lot of thinking about the possible violation of Danbus's first amendment rights. It is very clear that he was profiled in this case for whatever reasons. It is serious, it is actionable, and the clothing he was wearing is irrelevant. Regards |
|||||||||
|
nakedshoplifter Regular Member 
|
My cellphone voicemail has a three minute limit. |
|||||||||
|
30 cal slut Regular Member
|
danbus, i'm sorry you went through that (again) - but i can't help but chuckle a little at your account of the events that transpired. wear whatever hat you want. maybe you should rotate your headgear every other day - BMWAG and BMWAL(awyer). LOL!   |
|||||||||
|
HankT State Researcher 
|
danbus wrote: I wanted to hold off my story until I got it resolved, but I must get it off my chest since I have no one else to talk to. Again this is MY side of the story. Wow, they got you again.  Sorry to hear about your misfortune. Am very glad you handled it so well and that the NPD had nothing to show for their alarmist commando call. Clearly your rights were violated and I hope that some meaningful measure of corrective action can and will be taken for the that. As far as the hat goes, I really really dig the humor. Takes guts to do that kind of sardonic/sarcastic humor. Almost nobody really gets it and almost everyone will tell you not to do it. Because the world is stil like it is, I'm afraid you will always have a good chance of being a BMWAG in the sense that the humor is aimed at...I'm glad you are OK and you gotta keep on keepin' on. 30 cal slut wrote: wear whatever hat you want. maybe you should rotate your headgear every other day - BMWAG and BMWAL(awyer). LOL! Amen. Or maybe one hat with BMWAGAAL. BWT, how many people (general public) even know what BMWAG means? |
|||||||||
|
BobCav Founder's Club Member
|
Danbus, I was wearing my "The cops pulled me over for carrying THESE guns" t-shirt at the Burke Lake Park and nobody said a thing. It could have been worse, you could have said one of these pearls:  |
|||||||||
|
vrwmiller Regular Member 
|
ckpolaris wrote:I'm not sure where I accused Danbus of doing wrong. I was trying to point out specific incidents that have happened in norfolk recently, that would somewhat excuse why they were acting they way they were. It's no excuse. Each situation presents it's own circumstances. LE need operate with this understanding. |
|||||||||
|
possumboy Regular Member 
|
danbus wrote:
danbus, Looks like you handled yourself very well. The only thing I will point out is that when you started your "small talk" you revoked your rights to remain silent. Giving the LEOs the ability to start questioning you again. When you invoke your rights, stay quiet. Again, it does sound like you did everything right here, but if you make "small talk" you do need to invoke your rights again by saying them again. This whole "safety" issues is BS. If you were going to shoot them to get away, you would have drawn when you saw them, or started fighting when they started harassing you. Some people just can't think past the tip of what they have been told. Last edited on Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 06:23 pm by possumboy |
|||||||||
|
vtme_grad98 Regular Member
|
savery wrote: There was an administrative law judge around here that almost got 60 million for a lost pair of pants.... but no dice. The difference is that he was his own lawyer for that. He was also probably well aware that he wouldn't get the money. But, being a lawyer who apparently has too much free time, he was well equipped to ment that family for years with this suit. I just hope their countersuit for legal fees plays out well. The challenge is that you first have to find a lawyer that cares about fighting for good causes. Then, in that already small pool, you have to find one who isn't already tying up all of his free time with other good causes. |
|||||||||
|
HankT State Researcher
|
Hawkflyer wrote: While color may matter to the police, I have not met anyone from this forum that holds that view. Oh there are probably a few...there always are some. I recall that one person here was dissatisfied with the discussion about Danbus' stop at the Wal-Mart. Guy said that the "white and black thing" was at the very least "disingenous." And maybe even more than that. He didn't see a need to discuss that stuff. But there are very similar circumstances involved in both stops. Very similar comments in the threads about color, too. Maybe he'll pipe in on this one too. |
|||||||||
|
Doug Huffman Regular Member
|
In the days before the Band of Blue (either we are equal or we are not.), I used to take grief for suggesting that we all have dark blue T-shirts or nylon windbreakers with the word 'POLITE' in yellow block letters draped over our car's seat back. Our local retired cop used to ask, 'why would you want to be mistaken for police?' Imagine! My retort, 'why would some cops want to be mistaken for being polite?' This perhaps after cleaning up their mess at the range. Now, with a minute and some colored vinyl everyone can be more equal than the guy without. Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA KMA$$ |
|||||||||
|
vtme_grad98 Regular Member
|
HankT wrote: Hawkflyer wrote:While color may matter to the police, I have not met anyone from this forum that holds that view. When you don't care about color, you can expect to be very surprised at one point or another at who does care about that type of thing. |
|||||||||
|
reefteach Regular Member 
|
Asking for attention, maybe. Asking for a violation of your civil rights, doubtful. |
|||||||||
|
DrMark Lone Star Veteran 
|
Danbus, Maybe I missed it, but did you get the names of the officers? |
|||||||||
|
kaiheitai17 Regular Member 
|
I am beginning to think that Danbus craves the attention of authority figures and this is his way of reaching out. You really need to get a recorder and you really need to get a lawyer not IF but WHEN this happens again. |
|||||||||
|
Reverend73 Founder's Club Member
|
Well, I went with Dan to file for the FOIA stuff regarding this incident. It was ENTIRELY uneventful. The officers in the station didn't say one word about us open carrying, not one. Man how I wanted them to say something. Oh well. Then we went to the exact same spot where he was accosted the other day and waited for his friend. One of the security guards from the other day was there and I made sure he noticed I was packing. Nothing. A Norfolk Sherrif drove by twice, but I never notice her looking our way. As we were leaving when his friend arrived, a Norfolk PD cruiser passed by as we were driving off. Then we drove back to Dan's car so we could look at his a/c problem and as we were looking under the hood two bike cops pedaled by. His friend said they looked right at us, but then rolled on by. Like I said, uneventful |
|||||||||
|
openryan State Researcher
|
Reverend73 wrote: Well, I went with Dan to file for the FOIA stuff regarding this incident. It was ENTIRELY uneventful. The officers in the station didn't say one word about us open carrying, not one. Man how I wanted them to say something. Oh well. Then we went to the exact same spot where he was accosted the other day and waited for his friend. One of the security guards from the other day was there and I made sure he noticed I was packing. Nothing. A Norfolk Sherrif drove by twice, but I never notice her looking our way. As we were leaving when his friend arrived, a Norfolk PD cruiser passed by as we were driving off. Then we drove back to Dan's car so we could look at his a/c problem and as we were looking under the hood two bike cops pedaled by. His friend said they looked right at us, but then rolled on by. Like I said, uneventful Maybe change the indifferent smiley for a -- After all, this is what we want right? |
|||||||||
|
openryan State Researcher
|
Hawkflyer wrote: While I understand the point, this idea that a person should not wear a specific hat just because they are armed is ridiculous. Like Tomahawk I think it is funny to anyone with a sense of humor. But there is a more important issue here. Hawk, I was not trying to make any comment on how the police treated Danbus based on his choice of headgear... Moreso I was trying to make the point that a concerned citizen may be alarmed by his choice of headgear, prompting a call to the police. How dare you think the police would ever, ever profile someone! (sarcasm) |
|||||||||
|
HankT State Researcher
|
Reverend73 wrote: Well, I went with Dan to file for the FOIA stuff regarding this incident. It was ENTIRELY uneventful. The officers in the station didn't say one word about us open carrying, not one. Man how I wanted them to say something. Oh well. I'm sure that Danbus has a valid basis for complaint and it is a great thing that you went along for moral support and fellowship....but why on earth would you want "the officers in the station ... to say something" so badly? That doesn't make any sense to me. Were you looking for justice? A confrontation? Did you have a snappy comment ready for them? I'm curious. Just why would you want them to say something?  |
|||||||||
|
LoveMyCountry State Researcher 
|
Regarding the voice recorder, does anybody else see a bad ending to the combination of "put your hands up" and you reaching into your pocket to start your recording?  As you are pulled over, you can start the recording but how can we to start it when the Police are already on you? LoveMyCountry |
|||||||||
|
bohdi Regular Member 
|
Pardon me officer, before you begin I must slowly put my hands in a non-threatening way into my upper left breast shirt pocket and activate an electrical device used to log ambient acoustical anomolies in the environment immediately surrounding me. Your patience and understanding is appreciated as this has very significant scientific value to me. Thank you for your support. |
|||||||||
|
Reverend73 Founder's Club Member
|
HankT wrote: Reverend73 wrote:Well, I went with Dan to file for the FOIA stuff regarding this incident. It was ENTIRELY uneventful. The officers in the station didn't say one word about us open carrying, not one. Man how I wanted them to say something. Oh well. Were you looking for justice? No, the FOIA will help with that A Confrontation? Yes, I would have really enjoyed it, though I was there first and foremost to support Dan. Did you have a snappy comment ready for them? Yes, I had a few ready. I will apologize for nothing. It really ticks me off how they treat my friend based primarily on his skin color and secondarily on his choice to open carry. It is unacceptable. I saw with my own eyes how he was standing, where he was at, etc the day the cops come flying in gun drawn and pointed at his chest, verbally harrassing him, etc. That is NOT ok with me. I would bet money had I not been there, the cops in the station would have harrassed him for open carrying, and he was dressed nicer than I was. Geez, now I'm all fired up again....  Last edited on Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 03:57 pm by Reverend73 |
|||||||||
|
cato Regular Member
|
LoveMyCountry wrote: Regarding the voice recorder, does anybody else see a bad ending to the combination of "put your hands up" and you reaching into your pocket to start your recording? Yes, that is a valid concern. Voice activated would solve that but cost a lot of battery power and not provide the best audio as pointed out by some one else here. You could keep it in a belt pouch as many officers do and discreetly activate it if you see trouble coming. "Hands up!" I would recommend means do it sooner then later. I've seen a shooting happen just like you mentioned. Hands up was shouted and perp put his hands in his pocket (to discard contraband) and the officer's gun when bang. Missed, lucky for him! |
|||||||||
|
HankT State Researcher
|
cato wrote: LoveMyCountry wrote:Regarding the voice recorder, does anybody else see a bad ending to the combination of "put your hands up" and you reaching into your pocket to start your recording? I think we can all agree that waiting until the officer is on the scene and pointing a weapon at you is not a good time to try manually activating a personal recorder. That's great advice but rather obvious. Let's stipulate that. However, in the instant case, Danbus had ample opportunity to safely activate a recorder before he got a gun pointed at his chest. He knew the po-po were a'comin'. It would have been highly interesting to have a tape of the Danbus/LEO exchange to use in support of a complaint. I remember from the Mercutio545 and Reverend73 stops that a recorder would have been quite useful in supporting a complaint. I also remember that LEO 229 has commented that VA LEOs must allow such recording to proceed by a citizen or get in big trouble. As others have suggested, the recorder is a winner of an idea, state law permitting. |
|||||||||
|
AbNo Regular Member
|
Well, if someone can find the statute Hank just mentioned, they would be a Hero. Though not An Hero. That's something totally different. |
|||||||||
|
Comp-tech State Researcher 
|
How would this fit into the voice recording issue?....... http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/05/541.asp it would seem that if video is protected, audio would be as well. Since it was a federal court, would the decision not cover all states? |
|||||||||
|
LEO 229 Regular Member 
|
LoveMyCountry wrote: Regarding the voice recorder, does anybody else see a bad ending to the combination of "put your hands up" and you reaching into your pocket to start your recording? If your ordered to put your hands up... Better do it without delay. You may just get hit with the tazer otherwise.If you see a LEO headed in your direction or circling.. turn it on ahead of time and wait for the attack. |
|||||||||
|
Hawkflyer Founder's Club Member
|
Comp-tech wrote:How would this fit into the voice recording issue?....... http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/05/541.asp Actually audio and video are treated separatly under the law. Audio falls under the wiretap statutes. In virginia, so long as any party in the conversation is aware of and consents to an audio recording, it is legal. Other parties to the conversation need not be advised of the recording. Federal Law Virginia Law Last edited on Wed Jul 4th, 2007 04:37 am by Hawkflyer |
|||||||||
|
wsweeks2 Regular Member
|
openryan wrote: ...[Q]uite a few of us here, myself included, are usually well aware of our apprearance and dress professional or at the very least nice clothing, nothing too provocative. I'm trying to recall where in the 2nd Amendment they placed the asterisk noting that it only applied to those who dressed acceptably? Anyone? |
|||||||||
|
Hawkflyer Founder's Club Member
|
wsweeks2 wrote:...SNIP It actually in the first amendment near the restrictions on flag burning. |
|||||||||
|
wsweeks2 Regular Member
|
Gotcha. I must have overlooked that, just like the part in the 4th allowing searches without PC. |
|||||||||
|
Comp-tech State Researcher
|
Hawkflyer wrote: Comp-tech wrote: Thanks for the clarification Hawkflyer....I think Ala. is similar in that one party must have knowledge of/give consent. Section 13A-11-30Definitions. The following definitions apply to this article: (1) EAVESDROP. To overhear, record, amplify or transmit any part of the private communication of others without the consent of at least one of the persons engaged in the communication, except as otherwise provided by law. |
|||||||||
|
danbus Regular Member
|
Just to give everyone an update. I went to pick up my friend yesterday and got the cops called on me again (I believe it's the same security guard that called the cops the last time). It happened as soon as my friend came out the building! Such bad timing. They sent 4 this time, however they didn't come out with guns drawn. I was put in handcuffs, they took my gun, they searched for my ID, all the while I verbally stating that I did not consent to a search or seizure. I was very upset once again, so my responses weren't very nice. No cussing, but just very smart ass. Yeah, I know I shouldn't have given the officers a hard time for doing their jobs, but once they acknoledge that I'm not doing anything illegal, it's on like donkey kong. I ended up in the squad car for being such a smart ass, however the cuffs were not double locked, causing my right wrist to slighty bruise. I informed the officer who did nothing of course (I expected him to do that). What was REALLY funny was that 2 of the responding officers ran my "papers" twice to make sure they didn't miss anything. Then they made me give up my fingerprint (right thumb) on this FYI card and tried to tell me that I'm asking for trouble blah blah blah, the cop lecture. THEN they said I couldn't come back on this street. A public street mind you. Then after telling them it's a public street, they instructed me that I couldn't touch the wall, but I could come back. And he advised me that if I came back, they would put me in handcuffs, and run my "papers"again. And of course, Brian wasn't with me. I was dressed nicely. Didn't even have "the hat". Time for another FOIA, yay! Edit - I forgot to add that my firearm was 8+1 when I got there, and 7+1 after they gave it back to me. Then they said, your gun only holds 7 rounds in the mag. After I showed him the mag (it has 8 liitle holes ) the officer said, "oh, it must be French".Smith and Wesson...French? Last edited on Wed Jul 4th, 2007 02:34 pm by danbus |
|||||||||
|
wsweeks2 Regular Member
|
So they still haven't learned the laws since the last time. That's encouraging! At this rate, you'll own the department soon Danbus! |
|||||||||
|
HankT State Researcher
|
danbus wrote: Just to give everyone an update. I went to pick up my friend yesterday and got the cops called on me again (I believe it's the same security guard that called the cops the last time). It happened as soon as my friend came out the building! Such bad timing. This is willful harassment at this point. |
|||||||||
|
LEO 229 Regular Member
|
So when will you be finding an attorney to start your lawsuit!!??? Do you your wrists hurt now? I believe all departments are required to double lock those cuffs. They can close while leaning back on them creating nerve damage. Telling you not to return to that street is clearly harassment. I would go back again and have someone secretly video tape you from a distance. You can wear a remote microphone. This is clearly wrong and they represent me as well as all the other LEOs out there. If they did do this... I would want them off the street. |
|||||||||
|
wsweeks2 Regular Member
|
LEO 229 wrote: This is clearly wrong and they represent me as well as all the other LEOs out there. If they did do this... I would want them off the street. You made my day by writing this statement LEO 229. Has anyone called the PD down in Norfolk to ask as to why they harrass legal gun owners who carry IN COMPLIANCE with state law? |
|||||||||
|
Bubba Ron Regular Member 
|
wsweeks2 wrote: Has anyone called the PD down in Norfolk to ask as to why they harrass legal gun owners who carry IN COMPLIANCE with state law? VCDL is following this very closely.... |
|||||||||
|
Tomahawk Regular Member
|
ANGER RISING...deep breaths...okay, I'm good, now. Seriously, this BS has to STOP. |
|||||||||
|
nakedshoplifter Regular Member
|
Someone's about to HULK out!! |
|||||||||
|
Tomahawk Regular Member
|
Substitute Wes Studi for Bill Bixby and you get the picture... Last edited on Wed Jul 4th, 2007 04:08 pm by Tomahawk |
|||||||||
|
LEO 229 Regular Member
|
Tomahawk wrote: ANGER RISING...deep breaths...okay, I'm good, now. You see.. taking a deep breath does help sometimes.. But ya... That LEO knows better but chooses to keep up to his same old tricks.. That is just wrong. He may not like OCers.. but it is allowed and he should get over it. |
|||||||||
|
Hawkflyer Founder's Club Member
|
Tomahawk wrote:ANGER RISING...deep breaths...okay, I'm good, now. It seems to me that if the same "rent-a-cop" (insult intended), is calling this in to 911 each time, it is that person that needs to be "retrained". Perhaps if it could be determined who he works for, a few letters to his boss from various organizations and individuals might be in order. Nothing hostile, just a note that unless they change something that this employee is opening them up to a harassment suit. I could not help but notice that the BMWAG hat was not in attendance this time. So it seems that it would make no difference what head gear is involved. Also there have been a few mentions of other people going there armed and NOT having the police called. Those things should be documented. I really like the idea of capturing this on video. Perhaps even capturing someone else OCing in the same spot and not being harassed as well. Regards |
|||||||||
|
Reverend73 Founder's Club Member
|
LEO 229 wrote: So when will you be finding an attorney to start your lawsuit!!??? We are doing exactly this today. I dont know about the super secret microphone though. Our plan is to have just me out there open carrying and hope someone calls the po po. This has got to stop. In my opinion, this is a bad or worse than the Mannassas incident, only difference is its only affecting one person vice seven (so far). So back to yesterdays incident, I was sitting at home perusing OCDO and I get a call, person on the other end says "you have to get to downtown Norfolk now, they have Dan in handcuffs again" took a second to register who was talking, it was Danbus friend. "They took his bullets too!" I'm thinking, you have to be kidding me, I was there with him just yesterday and nothing happened. So I hop in the car and speed down to Norfolk, but by that time it was over and Dan was at the police station waiting on me to go file for ANOTHER FOIA. Unfortunately they were already closed, so we just stood on the street and talked for a little while, talked about what to do about this, and what our plan is for today. Last edited on Wed Jul 4th, 2007 05:10 pm by Reverend73 |
|||||||||
|
UTOC-45-44 Regular Member 
|
wsweeks2 wrote: openryan wrote:...[Q]uite a few of us here, myself included, are usually well aware of our apprearance and dress professional or at the very least nice clothing, nothing too provocative. ROTFLMAO... ... |
|||||||||
|
Dutch Uncle Activist Member 
|
I haven't been able to contact Dan (?cell phone out of commission?) but I wonder if there is a restaurant close to the location where all this happened. Perhaps an impromptu OCDO dinner in the next few days might be in order. We can all take a nice little stroll before going to eat and see if the White Anglo-Saxon Crackers get the same treatment or not. This is getting damned ridiculous! Securty guards may not know the law, but the police certainly should by now. |
|||||||||
|
openryan State Researcher
|
UTOC-45-44 wrote: wsweeks2 wrote:openryan wrote:...[Q]uite a few of us here, myself included, are usually well aware of our apprearance and dress professional or at the very least nice clothing, nothing too provocative. Well I guess I must partially recant my statements now, not because they are untrue or do not apply to certain aspects here or otherwise. But it now seems more clear that this is due to the security gaurd, if indeed the same 'rent a cop' as before, he most likely was angry that danbus didn't get it harder the first time. I also believe something racial may be at play here. I think danbus has a strong case now, at times like these I wish I lived closer to VA so that I could help out. And as far as what I said in the quote above, I still believe it applies, if you do not believe self presentation has anything to do with the equation here or otherwise then you are still oblivious. |
|||||||||
|
Pa. Patriot State Researcher
|
Wish I was closer too. I'd be down there with them. |
|||||||||
|
Hawkflyer Founder's Club Member
|
It seems to me that there needs to be a string of armed people walking past this particular security guard perhaps 5 minutes apart. What exactly is it that he is guarding? Does he work in the bank? Is there some other establishment he is "protecting"? Regards |
|||||||||
|
Tomahawk Regular Member
|
While I share your contempt for the security guard, he can call the cops if he wants whenever he wants, until the police tell him to stop. Which they won't do. In fact, the police reinforce the SG's perception that OC is wrong somehow because of how they treat Danbus in front of him the first time. The SG may be a prick, but he isn't the one who has the ability to detain, handcuff, arrest, harrass, and of course, point a loaded gun at you. The police do have this ability, if not the authority. The conduct of the police should be the primary focus. I'm not above irritating the rent-a-cop, though. |
|||||||||
|
danbus Regular Member
|
The security guard is employed by Wackenhut. They usually stand inside the building and outside across the street. While I was sitting in the sqaud car, he came out and told the officers he made the call. Shook their hands and left. While I have reason to believe that it was the same guard who wanted to waste our tax dollars, I must await the FOIA. Until I get all the facts aligned, I won't be able to point the finger just yet. Again, I would like to say thank you for everyone's love and support in the matter!! |
|||||||||
|
Bubba Ron Regular Member
|
danbus wrote: The security guard is employed by Wackenhut. They usually stand inside the building and outside across the street. These (this) security guard(s) should be reprimanded by the police for continuing to call in false alarms - not shaking their hand.... |
|||||||||
|
Bubba Ron Regular Member
|
Dutch Uncle wrote: I haven't been able to contact Dan (?cell phone out of commission?) but I wonder if there is a restaurant close to the location where all this happened. Perhaps an impromptu OCDO dinner in the next few days might be in order. We can all take a nice little stroll before going to eat and see if the White Anglo-Saxon Crackers get the same treatment or not. This is getting damned ridiculous! Securty guards may not know the law, but the police certainly should by now. We all went to AJ Gators on Grandby Street after the last VCDL meeting at Bob's Gun Shop - not sure of how near this is to the "scene of the non-crime" - but we had a great time (about 25 of us) with absolutely zero problems. That was about 2 years ago or so..... |
|||||||||
|
openryan State Researcher
|
Seems like this security gaurd wants a piece of the action maybe. Tomahawk, I agree that the actions of the police are paramount in this problem, however if they were to be totally legit about it, they need to inform the SG that OC is legal. I could see one concerned call from the SG the first time he was unaware, but the second time he made the call he should have known it was legal. This is why I believe the security company should receive a training bulliten on this as well. BTW, I didn't catch it in the beginning, is the SG armed? |
|||||||||
|
danbus Regular Member
|
openryan wrote: Seems like this security gaurd wants a piece of the action maybe. Yeah, with whistle, flashlight, and a cell phone. Seriously, they are not armed. For goodness sake, they protect a call center AND a bank, not a armored car or a nuclear power plant. |
|||||||||
|
SicSemperTyrannis Regular Member
|
I manage a bank in a heavily urban area of the City of Richmond, and open carry doesn't bother me one bit! Anyone who wishes to cause harm is not going to enter with a gun in a holster - it will be hidden or in their hands. |
|||||||||
|
BobCav Founder's Club Member
|
Hell, I'll be happy drop some ink on paper to remind the (in)security company them that their uninformed guards are wasting taxpayer dollars through ignorance of the law. Continued ignorance, under the guise of public safety is still ignoranceand may result in them being named in a harassment lawsuit. |
|||||||||
|
HankT State Researcher
|
Hawkflyer wrote: It seems to me that if the same "rent-a-cop" (insult intended), is calling this in to 911 each time, it is that person that needs to be "retrained". Perhaps if it could be determined who he works for, a few letters to his boss from various organizations and individuals might be in order. Nothing hostile, just a note that unless they change something that this employee is opening them up to a harassment suit. This is a very good idea. Communicate with the SG and his firm to advise them of what's up. Hawkflyer wrote:
The hat was never important. It never played a part in anything substantive in the first Danbus stop. And I don't recall reading that anyone else had gone to the same place as Danbus OCing. I don't really see the logic of sending someone (say, an unmistakably white guy) over there to OC. If the SG does the same thing and calls the cops, then there goes the "discrimination" contention. Dutch Uncle wrote: We can all take a nice little stroll before going to eat and see if the White Anglo-Saxon Crackers get the same treatment or not. Hawkflyer wrote: It seems to me that there needs to be a string of armed people walking past this particular security guard perhaps 5 minutes apart. This seems to me a poor tactic. It's kind of schoolyard stuff. The problem is that, usually, schoolyard tactics produce schoolyard results. Especially if you get some hothead type guy to OC there who is itching to have someone "say something" to start a heated verbal contestation of some sort. Frankly, I see some possiblity that it'd hurt the strong case that Danbus now has. Best thing is to have a mature and calculated communication with Wackenhut and NPD. Preferably by Danbus' attorney. The schoolyard stuff ain't appropriate... |
|||||||||
|
Dutch Uncle Activist Member
|
I spoke to Dan a few hours ago. He is his usual upbeat self, and says he is going to pursue the matter aggressively. Has already spoken to Philip. Dan said the LEO told him he wasn't under arrest, but held for an "investigative detainment" (Terry Stop, I guess). No charge, no crime, no threats, no resistance, but handcuffs were used, again!!! Dan plans to go back there again tomorrow to pick up his friend from work, as usual..... Stay tuned, I guess. Dan wouldn't mind having a dinner. Sounds like he'd prefer Sat, but Friday or Thursday would work too. Those would be my choices, too. The place in question is right across the street from Bank of America, at the corner of Waterside Dr. and Commercial Place. The nearest restaurants are at Waterside, just down the street. What do others think? P.S. I don't think having a dinner in the area is "schoolyard stuff" and woudn't actively be provoking any confrontation. It would simply be interesting to see if the police really are completely uninformed/unreasonable about the issue. The people in the Tidewater group all seem perfectly mature and reasonable, so I wouldn't expect any inappropriate actions or comments from any of us. I'm not saying Hank T's other suggestions aren't good ones. They are; but I don't see the two approaches as mutually exclusive. Last edited on Wed Jul 4th, 2007 07:48 pm by Dutch Uncle |
|||||||||
|
BobCav Founder's Club Member
|
Dutch, it is a great idea and certainly not schoolyard stuff. Exercising your 2A rights is not now, nor has it ever been schoolyard stuff. NEVER compromise your rights away expecially in the face of ignorance and tyrannical behavior such as this. For that is exactly what this is. Last time I checked, it was rebellion against tyranny that made this very day sacred in the hearts of TRUE Americans, and not just another sale or a day off! Sic Semper Tyrannis and Happy Independence Day! |
|||||||||
|
nakedshoplifter Regular Member
|
If you have the lunch on a Sat or Sun some of us NoVA types might...just might... make the drive and hang with you guys. |
|||||||||
|
DrMark Lone Star Veteran
|
Danbus, Was this the same officers? Do you have their names? |
|||||||||
|
wsweeks2 Regular Member
|
openryan wrote: And as far as what I said in the quote above, I still believe it applies, if you do not believe self presentation has anything to do with the equation here or otherwise then you are still oblivious. I'm not saying that it doesn't anything to do with it, rather I was asking where it had any impact on one's rights and the legalities of what Danbus is doing. Danbus is free to wear whatever he wants as expression under his 1st amendment rights. He could have on a t-shirt saying "All Cops Are Donut Eating Pigs" and he still has just as much of a right to carry openly on a public street without fear of harrassment. The cops in this case are clearly violating his 4th amendment rights among others. Just because he looks a certain way does not give them PC or reasonable suspicion to deduce that a crime has been/is about to be committed. |
|||||||||
|
LEO 229 Regular Member
|
wsweeks2 wrote: "All Cops Are Donut Eating Pigs" and he still has just as much of a right to carry openly on a public street without fear of harrassment. Oh My!! Your looking for attention... It is true... I loves me some fresh donuts!!! Oink!! |
|||||||||
|
Toad Regular Member 
|
LEO 229 wrote: wsweeks2 wrote:"All Cops Are Donut Eating Pigs" and he still has just as much of a right to carry openly on a public street without fear of harrassment. Actually, you would probably be given a "he fell down the stairs 4 times" treatment from the police if that shirt said "Krispy Kream donuts are worse that fresh dog $hit" |
|||||||||
|
danbus Regular Member
|
DrMark wrote: Danbus, Different officers this time, but I got their names. |
|||||||||
|
Bubba Ron Regular Member
|
Dutch Uncle wrote: Dan wouldn't mind having a dinner. Sounds like he'd prefer Sat, but Friday or Thursday would work too. Those would be my choices, too. The place in question is right across the street from Bank of America, at the corner of Waterside Dr. and Commercial Place. The nearest restaurants are at Waterside, just down the street. What do others think? We're ready, any date (it would be great if some of the NOVA folks could also attend, meaning having it on a Saturday) just name the place and time - we'll be there. This would give us the opportunity for another two-fer this month... |
|||||||||
|
AbNo Regular Member
|
danbus wrote:Just to give everyone an update. I went to pick up my friend yesterday and got the cops called on me again (I believe it's the same security guard that called the cops the last time). It happened as soon as my friend came out the building! Hmm, this is the same "friend" that took off last time? *hint* *hint* danbus wrote:
So wait, they stole one of your .45 rounds? Though with this new information, I think they are just doing this to you for carrying a S&W. |
|||||||||
|
AbNo Regular Member
|
Dutch Uncle wrote:I haven't been able to contact Dan (?cell phone out of commission?) but I wonder if there is a restaurant close to the location where all this happened. Perhaps an impromptu OCDO dinner in the next few days might be in order. We can all take a nice little stroll before going to eat and see if the White Anglo-Saxon Crackers get the same treatment or not. This is getting damned ridiculous! Securty guards may not know the law, but the police certainly should by now. It would need to be a Wednesday or Thursday, maybe early Friday, but I'd gladly go, I haven't been to Hampton Roads much since I moved out. I can bring a camera, too. And really, if it's on a Fri/Sat/Sunday, I could go, if someone doesn't mind picking me up from H'burg, and trying to sleep in the car. I work all night all weekends. Last edited on Wed Jul 4th, 2007 09:49 pm by AbNo |
|||||||||
|
Dutch Uncle Activist Member
|
AbNo wrote:
I think they did it because they thought he was carrying a French pistol.......  |
|||||||||
|
AbNo Regular Member
|
HankT wrote:It never played a part in anything substantive in the first Danbus Stop. So, now we have Terry Stops, and Danbus Stops? |
|||||||||
|
Bubba Ron Regular Member
|
I'm sorry to see you are having so much fun with this. I just received two phone calls about an hour apart from another OCDOer that has been harrassed in Norfolk while attending an event in the city park. This is worse harrassment than in Manassas. We need to attend the next Norfolk city council meeting, or one in the near future, in force and put a stop to these illegal actions by NPD. What are you doing for the cause? |
|||||||||
|
ccloud43 Regular Member 
|
Here is a website with the Norfolk City Council meetings http://www.norfolk.va.us/City_Hall/scheduleCC.asp I dont know where they hold the meetings unless it is at city hall. I couldnt find it anywhere on the site. but like Bubba said a bunch of us need to go attend one. It did say you had to sign up if you wanted to speak. |
|||||||||
|
Citizen Founder's Club Member
|
Maybe we could urge City Council to engrave the unreasonable search and seizure clause of the Fourth Amendment on their @#&%! police handcuffs. Heh, heh, heh. Wouldn't it make a pleasant T-shirt? |
|||||||||
|
UTOC-45-44 Regular Member
|
Citizen wrote: Maybe we could urge City Council to engrave the unreasonable search and seizure clause of the Fourth Amendment on their @#&%! police handcuffs. 1. I speak my Rights, 2. I Carry my Rights, 4. You Detain my Rights Have A Donut on me... .......(LEO229) |
|||||||||
|
openryan State Researcher
|
Whats on the menu? Pig? |
|||||||||
|
HankT State Researcher
|
BobCav wrote: Exercising your 2A rights is not now, nor has it ever been schoolyard stuff. NEVER compromise your rights away expecially in the face of ignorance and tyrannical behavior such as this. For that is exactly what this is. Well, no one suggested that excercising 2A rights was schoolyard stuff. Until somebody does, your statement will be the usual straw man argument... But traipsing over there to the cawner with a show of force, as a gang, showing your shizzit, triumphantly, proudly, repeticiously, ready to humbug (verbally) is schoolyard stuff. Schoolyard tactic = schoolyard results.  I think the gang is gonna scotch Danbus' legitimate and strong case. Especially if there is interaction on the street with the SG. But the thought occurs that maybe Bob doesn't like the "schoolyard" tag. So, in the spirit of the day I'll call the march over to the scene of the stop something different. How about a "redcoat" tactic? You know, marching in formation, nose in the air, with pomp, tradition, precision, vigor...cluelessness...  Maybe you can get a drummer to lead the way.... Whatever happened to those redcoats? Happy Fourth, everyone! |
|||||||||
|
wsweeks2 Regular Member
|
I don't see how a group exercising their rights would detract in any way from Danbus' case. The facts are the facts and they aren't going to change. Are the patrol cops going to arrest 30 people for NOTHING? I doubt it. What might help Danbus' case is to have a white individual do the same thing, in the same place, at the same time of day as the other occurences have happened to see if they get the same friendly and courteous treatment from Norfolk's finest! |
|||||||||
|
nickerj1 Regular Member 
|
Hawkflyer wrote: It seems to me that there needs to be a string of armed people walking past this particular security guard perhaps 5 minutes apart. What exactly is it that he is guarding? Does he work in the bank? Is there some other establishment he is "protecting"? It's funny you mention this, cause Danbus is probably more of a deterant to crime AND would be able to react more effectively should someone commit a crime in that area. A mall security guard told stopped and questioned me about OCing a month ago and mentioned I might be frightening the customers. I almost felt like telling her, "Woman, these customers are probably glad someone is around who could actually protect them, unlike you." |
|||||||||
|
bayboy42 Regular Member 
|
I can make lunch/dinner on Saturday or Sunday!! |
|||||||||
|
kimbercarrier Activist Member 
|
Sorry to hear about this Danbus. I'm on vacation until the9th, so I can be there any time. How about having Reverand or some other whitey pickup Danbus freind to see what happens, do everything the same way he did it , stand outside the car wuth arms crossed and blackman with a gun hat. Just kidding about the hat. See you at the dinner. P.S. I know how you feel about your friend , I don't believe I would recieve much support from anyone other than those on this forum. Keep up the good fight and glad to have you on our side. Let me know if I can be of any help. kimbercarrier. |
|||||||||
|
mercutio545 Regular Member
|
LEO 229 wrote: wsweeks2 wrote:"All Cops Are Donut Eating Pigs" and he still has just as much of a right to carry openly on a public street without fear of harrassment. I went to the krispy kreme on Broad St. a few weeks ago, to get some hot 'n' now donuts (mmmm... i love a little glaze on my fried lard ), and I saw a Henrico LEO sitting back with a half dozen box. I was going to say something jokingly, but I didn't feel like getting a baton to the face. He was eating them like he meant business. |
|||||||||
|
ne1 Regular Member 
|
LEO 229 wrote: So when will you be finding an attorney to start your lawsuit!!???Get that man a beer. I'll drink to that! |
|||||||||
|
Hawkflyer Founder's Club Member
|
BobCav wrote:Dutch, it is a great idea and certainly not schoolyard stuff. Exercising your 2A rights is not now, nor has it ever been schoolyard stuff. NEVER compromise your rights away especially in the face of ignorance and tyrannical behavior such as this. For that is exactly what this is. You are quite correct on this Bob. I suppose that the MANY civil rights marches of the 1960's were also "Schoolyard stuff". I suppose the Abolitionist marches of the 1850's were "Schoolyard Stuff". Perhaps this guy was engaging in "Schoolyard stuff" too.  Characterizing a protest march, in support of constitutional rights as "Schoolyard Stuff" is absolutely the most ignorant and inane comment I have seen on this board to date. If we had followed that kind of advice in the 1950's and 1960's we would still have Jim Crow laws on the books. I suppose Rosa Parks should have just given up her seat, after all it was rather childish of her to insist on remaining seated in the face of all the harassment that resulted from her actions. This is not about "creating" a case for Danbus to sue them. They have already done that. This is about telling them that the "BMWAG" has a LOT of support for the exercise of his LAWFUL rights. This is about putting a stop to the harassment by police and security guards. And if you don't think it matters that these calls are being made by a security guard, you are very wrong. Police procedures will treat those calls very differently from a "citizen" call for the same type incident. Regards |
|||||||||
|
CPerdue Regular Member
|
Can anyone remember the USC statute that makes Uncle Sam pay legal costs of civil rights related litigation (I know I wrote it down somewhere... )? I've heard that the ACLU uses it in virtually every case. Point is, Danbus, don't let fear of cost dissuade you from a suit. Get the evidence and let 'em have it. C |
|||||||||
|
Hawkflyer Founder's Club Member
|
CPerdue wrote:Can anyone remember the USC statute that makes Uncle Sam pay legal costs of civil rights related litigation (I know I wrote it down somewhere... )? I've heard that the ACLU uses it in virtually every case. I think you may be referring to The Civil Rights Attorney's Fees Awards Act of 1976 (42 U.S.C.A. § 1988). The award of the fees is discretionary for the court, but it can be done. Regards Last edited on Thu Jul 5th, 2007 03:09 pm by Hawkflyer |
|||||||||
|
HankT State Researcher
|
Hawkflyer wrote: BobCav wrote: So, um, in line with "putting a stop to the harassment by police and security guards" has anyone communicated with Wackenhut hut or the SG directly yet? That seems to be the crucial next step to get the harassment stopped. (Other than the complaints to the NPD, of course.) Communication, in a mature and businesslike manner, can be very effective. Solves problems and everything...  Funny, how some people, supposedly responsible people, avoid communication that would solve a problem... It will be most interesting to see what happens next. |
|||||||||
|
Hawkflyer Founder's Club Member
|
HankT wrote:...SNIP You do seem to avoid "mature and business like" communication when ever you can, preferring instead to insult people and provide sarcastic slights. Speaking of your communication attempts, have you scheduled that MMM meeting yet? |
|||||||||
|
BobCav Founder's Club Member
|
Hawk, he obviously has something to hide, i.e. a hidden agenda. It seems that if a member responds to a situation that goes against what he believes is a correct course of action, he attempts to rip it apart or pull up quotes from the past. Not conducive to meaningful discussion or even social behavior. The only reason he's not banned is because his cellular wireless IP changes almost daily and he knows it. This version of the forum software does not have an "ignore user" feature - YET. Thus, he's found a place to continue his ramblings unfettered. Until such time as a software upgrade will permit the above features, I recommend to all members/users/posters to merely ignore him, especially the new members. The 3-4 decent things he's said are far outweighed by the hundreds upon hundreds of negative posts. He is a critic who has not demonstrated any knowledge or experience of Open Carrying or even firearms at any point. Take it for what it's worth. |
|||||||||
|
Brigdh Regular Member
|
Citizen wrote: Maybe we could urge City Council to engrave the unreasonable search and seizure clause of the Fourth Amendment on their @#&%! police handcuffs. At the WI state fair last year the Libertiarian booth had a nice t-shirt i bought. on the front was a paragraph stating I do not consent to searches etc and retain my rights. on the back was the 4A word for word. Unfortunatally i have not found the shirt online  They also had a "bill of rights void where prohibited by law" shirt i did not buy, but was online at their store as of last December. |
|||||||||
|
kimbercarrier Activist Member
|
Hey Danbus maybe the wackedouthut people are pissed that you as a citizen were armed and they as guards were not . I wonder if they had been armed would they have drawn on you and held you until the police arrived ? Last edited on Thu Jul 5th, 2007 04:09 pm by kimbercarrier |
|||||||||
|
Hawkflyer Founder's Club Member
|
BobCav wrote:Hawk, he obviously has something to hide, i.e. a hidden agenda. It seems that if a member responds to a situation that goes against what he believes is a correct course of action, he attempts to rip it apart or pull up quotes from the past. Not conducive to meaningful discussion or even social behavior. You are of course correct. I guess we will now be subjected to all those posts about him being picked on, and singled out for holding divergent views, yada, yada, yada. He just does not seem to get the fact that he is a do nothing ass, and that when he in not acting as such, people leave him alone, and when he does he is treated accordingly. I see he is off his meds today. Regards |
|||||||||
|
cato Regular Member
|
Video and Audio people!!!! We need to get it!!!!! Time for a sting operation! |
|||||||||
|
BB62 State Researcher
|
Cool solid-state video recorder, some adjustments needed to microphone (Google it) http://www2.oregonscientific.com/shop/product.asp?cid=6&scid=14&pid=709 |
|||||||||
|
GoldDot Regular Member
|
I have been following this thread with interest and now want to add my $.02. It's patently obvious that what NPD is doing is harrassment. The chief must be made aware of what is happening and be held accountable for it. If it takes a 'sting' operation then so be it. Follow that up with citizen complaints to the PD and letters to the editor of the local newsrag. There is no reason to be subjected to this. |
|||||||||
|
Hawkflyer Founder's Club Member
|
GoldDot wrote:I have been following this thread with interest and now want to add my $.02. While I agree with your assessment 100%, I would have every reason to believe that the Chief knows that this is going on and is unofficially sanctioning it. After he got the first FOIA, he had to know something was going on among the troops. By yesterday, he should have had time to put a stop to it if he wanted to do so. Regards |
|||||||||
|
AbNo Regular Member
|
To play a bit of a devil's advocate, Hank DOES have a point in dragging Wackenhut into this. The same RAC (rent-a-cop) has initiated this, twice in a row. For all his trolling (that I have called him out for in the past), he DOES have a good point there. That being said, when's the sting operation? And, for that matter, has anyone contacted the original BMWAG, for his amusement? Last edited on Fri Jul 6th, 2007 12:37 am by AbNo |
|||||||||
|
Comp-tech State Researcher
|
BB62 wrote: Cool solid-state video recorder, some adjustments needed to microphone (Google it) Here are a couple of ideas that include audio and are cheaper to boot! http://www.trendtimes.com/camera.html http://www.egrandbuy.com/24ghzmiwispy.html |
|||||||||
|
nakedshoplifter Regular Member
|
AbNo wrote: And, for that matter, has anyone contacted the original BMWAG, for his amusement? I just sent him an email. Last edited on Fri Jul 6th, 2007 12:59 am by nakedshoplifter |
|||||||||
|
NRA_Bear Regular Member 
|
AbNo wrote: SNIP Count me in ! |
|||||||||
|
possumboy Regular Member
|
cato wrote: Video and Audio people!!!! We need to get it!!!!! Time for a sting operation! Why a sting? Let them know it is happening. Let them know that we know our rights and will not be bullied. |
|||||||||
|
AbNo Regular Member
|
possumboy wrote:cato wrote:Video and Audio people!!!! We need to get it!!!!! Time for a sting operation! Because, if we hammer a few bad apples, the rest will get the point. |
|||||||||
|
Dutch Uncle Activist Member
|
How about meeting for dinner tomorrow evening about 6 PM at some place in or near Waterside? A Saturday evening in the summer means jammed restaurants and the bridge-tunnel mess. Early Friday evening might be a bit easier. Danbus, does this work for you? Brian, can you suggest a place? Our major agenda item should be how to proceed from here. Of course, nothing "schoolyardish" like that ineffective Bloomberg Gun Giveaway! |
|||||||||
|
SFDoc Regular Member 
|
kimbercarrier wrote: Hey Danbus maybe the wackedouthut people are pissed that you as a citizen were armed and they as guards were not . I wonder if they had been armed would they have drawn on you and held you until the police arrived ? Having had first hand experience with Quackenut and the quality of people they hire, Danbus would have most likely been shot. Those in management are only concerned with having a warm body on post and their profit margin. The so-called guard, will most likely be promoted to supervisor for his heroic actions. |
|||||||||
|
blackmanwithagun Regular Member 
|
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirtits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows niether victory nor defeat." Danbus, I am glad you weren't shot for being right. Thank you for your boldness. You may have lost one friend but you sure gained a lot more, at least one here. I understand. This is my first posting to this forum. Another soldier alerted me this and though I was getting ready to do something else I had to stop and write this in hopes you saw it before too long. I was reminded instantly of a time when my father came home a few days late. His lips were cut and he had spent the weekend in jail after a fight with some LEO's. He was beat up pretty bad. I think he lost some teeth. He told me that he was a good man but he was accused of being a trouble maker. He had being hanging out with some guy name King. Tidewater Rocks! your brother in the struggle, Kenn Blanchard http://www.blackmanwithagun.com PS If you want to talk about it and share it on my internet show (podcast), The Urban Shooter, let me know. And legally able to just call 301-637-5848. And if not, no worries. |
|||||||||
|
VAopencarry Regular Member 
|
BMWAG, Welcome to Opencarry.org!!! |
|||||||||
|
vrwmiller Regular Member
|
AbNo wrote: possumboy wrote: Going out and exercising your rights is one thing. I strongly encourage and support. I do so as well. However, referring to this meet as a sting or continuing to plan what could be construed as a sting does not help, IMO. We are not "law suit shopping". We only want to get the word out to PDs that the citizens know and exercize their rights and insist that the citizens not be treated unjustly. I do, however, encourage people to call out the PD on their failure to educate patrol officers, dispatchers, and the like. On the other hand, I don't want to take away from the effectiveness of lawsuits and case law. These can be powerful educational events for PDs. The person(s) bringing suits should be sure to seek appropriate damages, of course. Since other tax payers will shoulder much of the burden, especially if an outlandish settlement is sought. Just my .45 |
|||||||||
|
DrMark Lone Star Veteran
|
blackmanwithagun wrote: ... This is my first posting to this forum. ... Kenn Blanchard Welcome Kenn! |
|||||||||
|
TrueBrit Regular Member
|
DrMark wrote: blackmanwithagun wrote:... This is my first posting to this forum. ...Kenn Blanchard May I echo the good Doctor's sentiments,and welcome you aboard, Sir? TrueBrit. |
|||||||||
|
HankT State Researcher
|
vrwmiller wrote: AbNo wrote:possumboy wrote: I think the momentum is building up for this "sting" idea. Which I don't really know what that is. But I do know that it's kind of hard to plan a covert mission by posting the details in public. That much I know. This Internet is the dmandest thing... I hope that it doesn't turn to be Trainwreck III. But it's shaping up that way... If the "sting" op adversely affects Danbus' strong case, I'm sure the blame can go to....someone. How about the MMMers!? They're plausible candidates. |
|||||||||
|
cato Regular Member
|
It doesn't matter if a "sting" is a reality or not. If Norfolk thinks stings may occur and that stops their unlawful conduct or they are none the wiser and get taped doing something wrong which results in stopping the unlawful contacts...hey it's all the same. But, being a government hack, I'll tell you nothing pisses off the brass or a city council as much as having to pay out big $$$$$ for officer's avoidable "mistakes". Last edited on Fri Jul 6th, 2007 05:25 am by cato |
|||||||||
|
Dutch Uncle Activist Member
|
Sting-schming.... I'm not out to cause any scene or rope the police into anything. I'm interested in having another of our dinners, but in a location where members have been harrassed. If I like wearing red shirts and the police have been harrassing people for wearing red shirts, I might want to go there dressed like that to see for myself. It isn't necessary to read any more into it than that. Any takers for Friday at 6PM? |
|||||||||
|
longwatch Founder's Club Member
|
Dutch Uncle wrote: Sting-schming.... I'm not out to cause any scene or rope the police into anything. I'm interested in having another of our dinners, but in a location where members have been harrassed. If I like wearing red shirts and the police have been harrassing people for wearing red shirts, I might want to go there dressed like that to see for myself. It isn't necessary to read any more into it than that.Lets not go into the red shirt thing. Edit to add: Tension breaker, had to be done. Attached Image (viewed 418 times): Last edited on Fri Jul 6th, 2007 03:35 am by longwatch |
|||||||||
|
HankT State Researcher
|
Dutch Uncle wrote: Sting-schming.... I'm not out to cause any scene or rope the police into anything. I'm interested in having another of our dinners, but in a location where members have been harrassed. If I like wearing red shirts and the police have been harrassing people for wearing red shirts, I might want to go there dressed like that to see for myself. It isn't necessary to read any more into it than that. Wouldn't it be better to do it at the same time as Danbus usually picks up his friend? Better chance to get the same SG and all... |
|||||||||
|
BobCav Founder's Club Member
|
HankT wrote: vrwmiller wrote:AbNo wrote:possumboy wrote: http://www.fortunecity.com/athena/pankhurst/1781/cuckoo/Flew_medtime.wav |
|||||||||
|
kimbercarrier Activist Member
|
Hey Dutch I'm up for dinner. When and where? Last edited on Fri Jul 6th, 2007 04:13 am by kimbercarrier |
|||||||||
|
bayboy42 Regular Member
|
Dutch - I really feel the need to be at this one but I got 30 folks heading to my house for a cookout Friday night at 6:00. Enjoy dinner if yall can get enough folks together. I'm gonna try to catch up with Rev and maybe link up sometime Saturday afternoon and maybe go walk around Norfolk. |
|||||||||
|
Reverend73 Founder's Club Member
|
Ill meet for dinner Dutch. Theres a few restaurants at Waterside(very close to both Danbus' and my "incidents". We can even walk over and speak with the security guard if we want. Come on Dan, what do you say. BTW Dan, when I went to file the complaints, afterwards I went to where you pick up your friend but you weren't there? Brian |
|||||||||
|
Hawkflyer Founder's Club Member
|
blackmanwithagun wrote:...SNIP Welcome to the forum Kenn. Your story is exactly what I hope a show of support for OC and Danbus on the street can prevent. If it becomes common to see OCers in that part of Norfolk, and each incident is followed by a complaint, then the police will eventually have to give this up. I only hope it can be accomplished soon. Regards |
|||||||||
|
AbNo Regular Member
|
vrwmiller wrote: We are not "law suit shopping". AbNo wrote: Because, if we hammer a few bad apples, the rest will get the point. Do please show me where I advocated "lawsuit shopping". I have passively commented on it in the past, but identifying a pattern of abuse, or discrimination by the cops is not a bad act. We're up to what, twelve? SixTEEN NPD LEO's, at least in the last two weeks that have been harrassing and/or POINTING LOADED FIREARMS AT PEOPLE MINDING THEIR OWN BUSINESS. Was you be as uninterested in seeing that this problem was fixed if Dan wasn't here to post anymore because of some paranoid Wackenhut guard and an NPD officer with an itchy trigger finger? Last edited on Fri Jul 6th, 2007 05:18 am by AbNo |
|||||||||
|
vrwmiller Regular Member
|
AbNo, I did not say you are advocating "lawsuit shopping". The phrase "sting" was brought into the thread, thus implying that the next step would be a lawsuit. That's what happens when LEO conduct a sting...there's charges and a lawsuit filed. There are several schools of thought on this. Not long after the Tony's 7 incident, I began carrying there on purpose. Not to provoke or antagonize LE, that was not the intent. The intent was a silent protest to show that I would not take such behavior from the local PD. I was cautioned that doing so could stir the pot since the incident had not yet been resolved, but I believe that stirring the pot is exactly what is needed from time to time. I believe that the intent here, generally, is the same as mine. The intent can be questionable when being discussed here as a "sting". It's as if a citizen is purposefully instigating a person/LEO to violate a law. I am in complete agreement that NPD need to be educated on this issue. Complaints are being drafted and filed. Hopefully, this will address the education issue. If this does not, more drastic measures are called for such as a public showing at a local government meeting. |
|||||||||
|
AbNo Regular Member
|
Fair enough. Though I do think a little video surveilence of how NPD and Whack-job handle other people OC'ing there would be good. They don't have to be confronted, but vid evidence..... hard to refute. |
|||||||||
|
vrwmiller Regular Member
|
AbNo wrote: Fair enough. I agree. LE uses video/audio to help them in their cases. It's only fair that citizens can do the same. |
|||||||||
|
Hawkflyer Founder's Club Member
|
The first mention I can find of a "sting" was from CATO on page 6 or 7- cato wrote: Video and Audio people!!!! We need to get it!!!!! Time for a sting operation! So I think we can move on from that as an issue. CATO is a LEO and it is natural for him to look at this like a police investigation. Stings are common in that arena. Fact is, the reference is not of any significant importance. If you show up with a camera and a guy to open carry it in front of the camera, it is the same thing weather you call it a "sting" or not. Regards |
|||||||||
|
cato Regular Member
|
Hawkflyer wrote: The first mention I can find of a "sting" was from CATO on page 6 or 7- Right, I'm looking for evidence so we can close this case and move on to other perps, I mean rights issues. If you complain that I pointed a gun and took your ID for an unconstitutional records check and I say you gave it voluntarily; nothing happens. If many people complain, nothing still happens but the brass tell me to knock it off and I feel some heat. You get that on tape and I say it didn't happen, I start looking for a job in construction and brush up on my Spanish! |
|||||||||
|
Virginiaplanter Regular Member 
|
1) Danbus' Civil Rights were violated if the facts contained in this posts are true. Law-enforcement officers are entitled to qualified immunity unless they violate clearly established constitutional rights. Harlow v. Fitzgerald, 457 U.S. 800, 818 (1982). 2) “Of what avail are written constitutions, whose bills of right, for the security of individual liberty, have been written too often with the blood of martyrs shed upon the battlefield and the scaffold, if their limitations and restraints upon power may be overpassed with impunity by the very agencies created and appointed to guard, defend, and enforce them; and that, too, with the sacred authority of law, not only compelling obedience, but entitled to respect? And how else can these principles of individual liberty and right be maintained, if, when violated, the judicial tribunals are forbidden to visit penalties upon individual offenders, who are the instruments of wrong, whenever they interpose the shield of the state? The doctrine is not to be tolerated.” Poindexter v. Greenhow, 114 U.S. 270 (1885). 3) " Having concluded that petitioner's complaint states a cause of action under the Fourth Amendment, supra, at 390-395, we hold that petitioner is entitled to recover money damages for any injuries he has suffered as a result of the agents' violation of the Amendment." Bivens v. Six Unknown Federal Agents, 403 U.S. 388 (1971). 4) Does anbody know who the Chief Black Man with a gun in Virginia is? The Chief Justice of the Virginia Supreme Court. I am sure he would love to take a case about "Black Folk" being harrassed for exercising their constitutional rights. Imagine the Commonwealth's Attorney for Norfolk stating to Leroy Rountree Hassell, Sr., Yes, your Honor, He was wearing a hat that said "Black Man with a Gun" That was part of the Terry justication." Good luck with that one Norfolk. |
|||||||||
|
ccloud43 Regular Member
|
Dutch Uncle wrote:
Hey Dutch, I'll be there with the wife, where are we going to meet, @ waterside or over by the bank? I dont get over in that area much but i think there is a parking garage over in that area by the bank. Maybe we could all meet up over there and walk over to waterside. Last edited on Fri Jul 6th, 2007 10:30 am by ccloud43 |
|||||||||
|
HankT State Researcher
|
vrwmiller wrote: AbNo, I think some people are just getting a little over-exuberant and into play-acting. It's pretty hard to plan a "sting" by posting in a public forum that the "stingees" are very possibly reading every day. vrwmiller wrote:
I agree that the pending complaints will instigate an education process for NPD, one that is sorely needed. So that is covered. But there still is one other root cause out there: the Wackenhut personnel that reportedly initiated the calls to NPD. Somehow, if one really wanted to educate them, it wouldn't be with a parade/sting So the idea of: Hawkflyer wrote: It seems to me that there needs to be a string of armed people walking past this particular security guard perhaps 5 minutes apart. What exactly is it that he is guarding? Does he work in the bank? Is there some other establishment he is "protecting"? doesn't really do that. But this idea: Hawkflyer wrote: It seems to me that if the same "rent-a-cop" (insult intended), is calling this in to 911 each time, it is that person that needs to be "retrained". Perhaps if it could be determined who he works for, a few letters to his boss from various organizations and individuals might be in order. Nothing hostile, just a note that unless they change something that this employee is opening them up to a harassment suit. does. Except maybe telephone contact should be made in order to quickly get some idea if resolution of the problem is possible before embarking on the "sting" operation. (ETA) Hawk's 2nd suggestion here makes a LOT more sense than the first. So, why doesn't someone contact Wackenhut??????? Its personnel are what has gotten Danbus stopped two times. Educating Wackenhut would likely solve the problem. People do want to solve the problem....don't they? Last edited on Fri Jul 6th, 2007 01:36 pm by HankT |
|||||||||
|
Doug Huffman Regular Member
|
Virginiaplanter wrote: 1) Danbus' Civil Rights were violated if the facts contained in this posts are true. Law-enforcement officers are entitled to qualified immunity unless they violate clearly established constitutional rights. Harlow v. Fitzgerald, 457 U.S. 800, 818 (1982).BZ! Thank you and welcome. Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA KMA$$ |
|||||||||
|
bohdi Regular Member
|
HankT wrote: So, why doesn't someone contact Wackenhut??????? Its personnel are what has gotten Danbus stopped two times. Educating Wackenhut would likely solve the problem. People do want to solve the problem....don't they? Why isn't that "someone" you? Why are you waiting for others to carry this flag? It's your idea, you've been the most vocal about this idea, show some leadership and initiative and do it man! |
|||||||||
|
wsweeks2 Regular Member
|
HankT wrote: vrwmiller wrote:AbNo, That's the problem - if they were busy reading the laws instead of on here, we wouldn't have the issues of them conducting stops that are prohibited. |
|||||||||
|
reefteach Regular Member
|
Virginiaplanter wrote: 1) Danbus' Civil Rights were violated if the facts contained in this posts are true. Law-enforcement officers are entitled to qualified immunity unless they violate clearly established constitutional rights. Harlow v. Fitzgerald, 457 U.S. 800, 818 (1982). Here is a good read on the qualified immunity: http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/q063.htm The rule of qualified immunity " `provides ample support to all but the plainly incompetent or those who knowingly violate the law.' " Burns v. Reed, 500 U.S. 478, 494-95 (1991) (quoting Malley v. Briggs, 475 U.S. 335, 341 (1986)). "Therefore, regardless of whether the constitutional violation occurred, the officer should prevail if the right asserted by the plaintiff was not `clearly established' or the officer could have reasonably believed that his particular conduct was lawful." Romero v. Kitsap County, 931 F.2d 624, 627 (9th Cir. 1991) (emphasis added). Furthermore, "[t]he entitlement is an immunity from suit rather than a mere defense to liability; .. . it is effectively lost if a case is erroneously permitted to go to trial." Mitchell v. Forsyth, 472 U.S. 511, 526 (1985). |
|||||||||
|
Hawkflyer Founder's Club Member
|
wsweeks2 wrote:...SNIP Actually, I do not think knowing the law is the problem. These guys KNOW the law. At least they do now. The problem here is renegades abusing their position as LEOs, to impose their own view of how society should be. While this is certainly not unique, it cannot be tolerated. Regards |
|||||||||
|
1st freedom Regular Member
|
bohdi wrote: HankT wrote:So, why doesn't someone contact Wackenhut??????? Its personnel are what has gotten Danbus stopped two times. Educating Wackenhut would likely solve the problem. People do want to solve the problem....don't they? Contacting Wackenhut is useless, they are not going to tell their guards to "disreguard the man outside the bank with a gun". Because you are getting him in trouble.They will always error on the side of caution. They do however need to be educated by the 911 dispatcher when realizing that it is just a citizen that happens to be armed. If dept. policy states that it must be checked out, send a cruser by, assess the situation,stop in talk to the security guard inform them that citizen is committing no crime. You go that route once or twice, no more calls. This problem falls totally on NPD |
|||||||||
|
HankT State Researcher
|
bohdi wrote: HankT wrote:So, why doesn't someone contact Wackenhut??????? Its personnel are what has gotten Danbus stopped two times. Educating Wackenhut would likely solve the problem. People do want to solve the problem....don't they? Sorry, gotta defer to the Hawkflyer on this one, bohdi. It was his idea: Hawkflyer wrote: It seems to me that if the same "rent-a-cop" (insult intended), is calling this in to 911 each time, it is that person that needs to be "retrained". Perhaps if it could be determined who he works for, a few letters to his boss from various organizations and individuals might be in order. Nothing hostile, just a note that unless they change something that this employee is opening them up to a harassment suit. so it's his mission. He seems to have all the logic done. Why doesn't Hawk do it? He's the leader here. Unless he was jes talkin'... Last edited on Fri Jul 6th, 2007 03:25 pm by HankT |
|||||||||
|
bohdi Regular Member
|
Actually HankT, when it comes to leading the march for being vocal about communication directly with entities, you've been the undisputed heavy weight title for supporting this route of conducting business. This is a perfect example. True, it was Hawks suggestion earlier on page 6, he was the originator of this thought. So that's one for Hawk. You support this postion on page 6, so that's one for you. On page 8 you further imply communication should be used, so that's two for you. On page 9 you make reference to this being trainwreck III, because trainwreck II in your opinion was the Centreville meeting where you also supported trying to communicate without carrying (which neither NS or I did) and recommended apologizing (a form of communciation is required for this to happen) which neither NS or I did, so by this reference you are again supporting communicating with Wackenhut, so that's three, three for you, ah ah ah Finally on page 10 you state again clearly that you support communication with Wackenhut, and use Hawks original post in response to me, so that's four, four times you support communciation with Wackenhut in this thread. HankT +4 Hawk +1 Me 0 I think that makes you the leader, not Hawk. |
|||||||||
|
Bubba Ron Regular Member
|
ccloud43 wrote: Dutch Uncle wrote: I just talked with the Reverand, he suggested we meet at Jillians (333 Waterside Drive, Norfolk) around 6 p.m. I believe there's a parking garage directly across the street and if you park on the 2nd deck there is a "catwalk" over to Jillians. Let's meet up where the catwalk exits into Jillians. Last edited on Fri Jul 6th, 2007 04:25 pm by Bubba Ron |
|||||||||
|
Hawkflyer Founder's Club Member
|
bohdi wrote:HankT wrote:So, why doesn't someone contact Wackenhut??????? Its personnel are what has gotten Danbus stopped two times. Educating Wackenhut would likely solve the problem. People do want to solve the problem....don't they? Nobody on this forum can EVER expect ACTION on any issue from that source, even if he proposes the action to be taken. He is very "Vocal" on lots of topics with which he has no familiarity. The bulk of his posted ideas are subtile forms of compromise with anti-rights groups in some way, rather than resistance. But the bulk of his posts in general, are nothing more than criticisms of serious people with serious ideas, and sarcastic off topic remarks and pictures. All the evidence you need for that is in this thread. Besides, openly identifying himself in a letter would take a level of courage that he cannot rise to meet. He has never posted ANY evidence of EVER writing anything to government, organizations, news papers, or politicians, on ANY issue. These are serious issues for serious players, and he is a dry hole in that regard. At his best he produces noise in the discussion, and as such he is best ignored. I have no problem drafting and sending such a letter. I do it all the time. Just like I OC all the time, and live and work in Virginia where I can do so, and therefore understand the issues involved. As soon as the FOIA is complete and the name of the "Wacken-nut" is known I (and I am certain others) will send letters along. However, It is pointless to send such a letter in the blind without the names of the people involved. So I will defer action until that time. Regards Last edited on Fri Jul 6th, 2007 04:28 pm by Hawkflyer |
|||||||||
|
BB62 State Researcher
|
Danbus, I finally got ahold of my former student, another "BMWAG" who had an incident with his unintentially OC gun at Wal-Mart. Please check your messages for his number. BTW - what's up with the WM banning of your presence? Last edited on Fri Jul 6th, 2007 04:41 pm by BB62 |
|||||||||
|
HankT State Researcher
|
bohdi wrote: Actually HankT, when it comes to leading the march for being vocal about communication directly with entities, you've been the undisputed heavy weight title for supporting this route of conducting business. This is a perfect example. Somehow, I think you figured out the scoring outcome before you figured out the scheme.... Good try though. Let's see if Hawk steps up to the plate. It was his idea.... |
|||||||||
|
bohdi Regular Member
|
last comment was counter productive, pointless, and off thread track. Last edited on Fri Jul 6th, 2007 06:16 pm by bohdi |
|||||||||
|
BobCav Founder's Club Member
|
Guys, you can forget that one, it's like pushing a rope. Though this is serious stuff to us, it's just a game to him. Word games with no action whatsoever. Besides a man is judged by his deeds, not his words. Who knows why he is here, why he eludes every question? Why is complete anonymity so important to him far more than most of the people here? I think it's because it would blow his cover. Perhaps he's not supposed to even be on a gun board any more than Michael Jackson is allowed to drive kids to Kindercare. Perhaps he's an author doing research, or someone working on a thesis or dissertation using dishonest data collection methods. Maybe he's a psych student trying to get into the mind of gun owners. Maybe he's just psycho and out of his own mind. We can speculate for days and maybe nail it, maybe miss completely. Then again, perhaps that's his intent. Defocusing the forum. Creat dissent from "within". Whatever his hidden agenda might be, he's not telling. But it most certainly is a hidden agenda. I might believe it would be for honest and noble reasons if the interactions here were more neutral and not so full of bitter, harsh criticism at nearly every turn. I actually feel sorry for him. Over 1000 posts and hasn't made any real friends. Who knows what his issues are. Just ignore him until the new software with an ignore feature comes out. |
|||||||||
|
DrMark Lone Star Veteran
|
BobCav wrote: Just ignore him... That approach has been working well for me. |
|||||||||
|
HankT State Researcher
|
bohdi wrote: last comment was counter productive, pointless, and off thread track. Sort of sounds like the type of logic an MMMer would employ.... |
|||||||||
|
tarzan1888 Regular Member 
|
kaiheitai17 wrote: I am beginning to think that Danbus craves the attention of authority figures and this is his way of reaching out. The sixties had their Rosa Parks, and we have our Danbus. I see no real difference. Danbus you are the Man.  |
|||||||||
|
Reverend73 Founder's Club Member
|
Bubba Ron wrote: ccloud43 wrote:Dutch Uncle wrote: This is the plan, we can also mosey on over to where Danbus was "interrogated" and talk to the rent a cops, take pictrures, walk by them eating icecream cones, whatever. |
|||||||||
|
dng State Researcher 
|
What exactly is an MMMer? Sorry, but I'm having a hard time figuring this one out. |
|||||||||
|
Bubba Ron Regular Member
|
dngreer wrote: What exactly is an MMMer? Sorry, but I'm having a hard time figuring this one out. Million Mom Marcher |
|||||||||
|
dng State Researcher
|
Thanks. makes alot more sense now! |
|||||||||
|
HankT State Researcher
|
Reverend73 wrote: Bubba Ron wrote: Are you guys going to follow Hawk's suggestion?: Hawkflyer wrote: It seems to me that there needs to be a string of armed people walking past this particular security guard perhaps 5 minutes apart. What exactly is it that he is guarding? Does he work in the bank? Is there some other establishment he is "protecting"? |
|||||||||
|
Reverend73 Founder's Club Member
|
HankT wrote: Reverend73 wrote:Bubba Ron wrote: Why don't you show up and find out. We'd love to have you there with us. Though I do realize it is quite a haul from the great state of New Jersey. Last edited on Fri Jul 6th, 2007 07:11 pm by Reverend73 |
|||||||||
|
HankT State Researcher
|
Reverend73 wrote: HankT wrote:Reverend73 wrote:Bubba Ron wrote: Is that a yes? You will follow the Hawkflyer Tactical Taunting Procession (HTTP) plan with 5 minute intervals? Well, I hope it works out for youse all. And Danbus. I hope the right security guard is there when you all pass him by. Maybe pick up an extra ice cream cone for him. Kind of, um, break the ice, y'know. |
|||||||||
|
Bubba Ron Regular Member
|
Reverend73 wrote: HankT wrote:Reverend73 wrote:Bubba Ron wrote: +10000000000 Rev, see ya tonight at Jillians.... |
|||||||||
|
UTOC-45-44 Regular Member
|
BobCav wrote: Guys, you can forget that one, it's like pushing a rope. Though this is serious stuff to us, it's just a game to him. Word games with no action whatsoever. Besides a man is judged by his deeds, not his words. "Guys, you can forget that one, it's like pushing a rope".... Around his neck ??? ...... |
|||||||||
|
Hawkflyer Founder's Club Member
|
In terms of prevarication he makes Clinton look like a kibitzer. He did just produce a post describing himself to a "T". HankT wrote: ...SNIP Last edited on Fri Jul 6th, 2007 07:36 pm by Hawkflyer |
|||||||||
|
kimbercarrier Activist Member
|
Man I didn't know HankT is from the Peoples Republic of New Joisy. My older brother and a cousin are held there, they are occassionally permitted to leave and visit if they leave a family member behind to ensure their return. Last edited on Fri Jul 6th, 2007 08:02 pm by kimbercarrier |
|||||||||
|
1st freedom Regular Member
|
kimbercarrier wrote: Man I didn't know HankT is from the Peoples Republic of New Joisy. My older brother and a cousin are held there, they are occassionally permitted to leave and visit if they leave a family member behind to ensure their return. That's funny,,, |
|||||||||
|
Hawkflyer Founder's Club Member
|
kimbercarrier wrote:Man I didn't know HankT is from the Peoples Republic of New Joisy. My older brother and a cousin are held there, they are occassionally permitted to leave and visit if they leave a family member behind to ensure their return. He also CLAIMS to have answered the questions of how often, if ever, he OCs. Clearly, if he is in NJ, that would answer the question once and for all, which is probably why he will not mention his home state or actually answer the question. In his defense, it would take some courage to answer such a question truthfully and directly. If you don't have it, you don't have it. So I do not expect to hear anything more than his empty claim to have answered the question in a now deleted thread. I read that thread and he never answered the question. So there is a certain candor issue here as well. I am content that he lives someplace where OC is not permitted, and can weigh his input on OC issues in this forum accordingly. Worthless waste of bits. Regards |
|||||||||
|
nakedshoplifter Regular Member
|
I too remember that thread, and he never answered the question there. Nor will he repeat his "answer" elsewhere. Oh, Solucient! |
|||||||||
|
Dutch Uncle Activist Member
|
HankT, You really are becoming extremely tedious, but I suppose you've heard that many times before. Sort of like the annoying dork in class who always had his hand up saying "Teacher, teacher, I know the answer, please call on me, please, please!" At first I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, but at this point I've decided your comments are not worth the effort. Dealing with someone like you makes me feel like I am at work (the locals know what that means). I think you and Jersey area great match, though! Klootzac !! Last edited on Fri Jul 6th, 2007 09:40 pm by Dutch Uncle |
|||||||||
|
Comp-tech State Researcher
|
kimbercarrier wrote: Man I didn't know HankT is from the Peoples Republic of New Joisy. My older brother and a cousin are held there, they are occassionally permitted to leave and visit if they leave a family member behind to ensure their return. If you guys want to know what state he is in, that is easy enough to find out. If a mod can get an IP that he has used, it can be traced back to the ISP that "owns" it....may even be able to tell what city too. |
|||||||||
|
Dutch Uncle Activist Member
|
Oh, and I will be there on the catwalk to Jillians at 6 PM! Haven't heard from Danbus in the last few days, so I don't know what his plans are. I have a PM into him so who knows. If you don't show, Danladi, I'll call you a "Loo-zah!" in my best Schwartzenegger accent the next I see you. Last edited on Fri Jul 6th, 2007 09:39 pm by Dutch Uncle |
|||||||||
|
dms Regular Member
|
I wonder if in the complaint the phrase "acting under the color of law" would cause any kind of reaction. I've been told that the aforementioned phrase works wonders here in Utah! |
|||||||||
|
Dutch Uncle Activist Member
|
IANAL, but I suspect you are right. They certainly tried to make it sound as if they were giving advice/orders on the basis of their authority, when clearly they either didn't know the law or (worse) were trying to intimidate him by spouting incorrect nonsense to get their way with him, |
|||||||||
|
UTOC-45-44 Regular Member
|
Dutch Uncle wrote: Oh, and I will be there on the catwalk to Jillians at 6 PM! Haven't heard from Danbus in the last few days, so I don't know what his plans are. I have a PM into him so who knows. Maybe Danbus finally got some Beautiful shiny Bracelets ...Hope not... |
|||||||||
|
Desertdoc Regular Member 
|
Damnit... i have been busy with personal things going on around home the last few weeks and have had no idea of what is going on. I will not be able to make it tonight, but will be there in spirit! Please keep me posted on what happens tonight. Brian, Ron, Jim.... call me and let me know.. I will be at work just dieing to know. |
|||||||||
|
Dutch Uncle Activist Member
|
Doc, I have your phone # and will give you a call after the dinner. I doubt Danbus is in the Greybar Hotel, else I or someone else would have gotten a call for bail money . He's probably just at work or trying to patch things up with Shauncy! I think he picks her up from work near Bank of America at about 6 PM, so if we see flashing blue lights, we'll know where to head!I'm looking forward to seeing you guys, as usual! |
|||||||||
|
vrwmiller Regular Member
|
DrMark wrote: BobCav wrote:Just ignore him... +1 |
|||||||||
|
Hawkflyer Founder's Club Member
|
dms wrote:I wonder if in the complaint the phrase "acting under the color of law" would cause any kind of reaction. I've been told that the aforementioned phrase works wonders here in Utah! You bet. It is a phrase that appears in every federal criminal prosecution of a LEO I have ever seen. It basically means acting in an official capacity, and/or abusing your position, and if the LEO is doing something against the law while acting under color of of law, he goes away big time if convicted. If it is a civil matter he pays big time. Regards |
|||||||||
|
Wooley Regular Member 
|
BobCav wrote: SNIP....Just ignore him until the new software with an ignore feature comes out. I don't want to ignore his posts. I respect a man that waits for the right time to ask this board for a plausible way to remove the barrel of a loaded 1911 from the anus without more injury than the front sight caused on its way in. Of course, the poor 1911 found its way in there in the name of "research" and "curiousity". |
|||||||||
|
Hawkflyer Founder's Club Member
|
Wooley wrote:BobCav wrote:SNIP....Just ignore him until the new software with an ignore feature comes out. Now there is an interesting visual. |
|||||||||
|
Wooley Regular Member
|
Yes, is that condition 4? |
|||||||||
|
Bubba Ron Regular Member
|
Just for the record, we had 8 folks show for the short notice dinner last night at Jillians (Waterside Norfolk). We had a very nice meal, with a super view of the river - no problems, or even questions, at all. We then headed back outside to see the areas where each of the three seperate harrassments took place, again - no problems (we did have some sheep stares though) and after a walk from Nauticus back down the waterfront to just below the catwalk going over to Jillians, we stopped and chatted for several minutes, when another of our buddies from Yorktown showed up - so the conversation continued....all in all, a very nice evening - we had 8 people together (most OCing) and walked all over downtown Norfolk without incident. |
|||||||||
|
AbNo Regular Member
|
wsweeks2 wrote:HankT wrote:vrwmiller wrote:AbNo, Stop FEEDING THE TROLL. |
|||||||||
|
AbNo Regular Member
|
Comp-tech wrote:kimbercarrier wrote:Man I didn't know HankT is from the Peoples Republic of New Joisy. My older brother and a cousin are held there, they are occassionally permitted to leave and visit if they leave a family member behind to ensure their return. Nope! My IP says I'm in Nebraska. But I can assure you I'm right off 81. |
|||||||||
|
Bubba Ron Regular Member
|
AbNo wrote: wsweeks2 wrote: AbNo, you've been on here a month now and you've already got over 200 posts - you're starting to act just like HankT....slow down and post productive stuff.... |
|||||||||
|
AbNo Regular Member
|
Not to be rude, but I feel I am working on something productive... http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/3307.html But seriously? Troll feeding... Can we please stop it? |
|||||||||
|
Comp-tech State Researcher
|
AbNo wrote: Comp-tech wrote: I won't argue the point as it is off topic but, I will say that you obviously don't have the right tools...... |
|||||||||
|
danbus Regular Member
|
My apologizes for not coming to the dinner, as I wanted to give the tour of events that happened in downtown Norfolk. My friend, whom I pick up from work (Shauncey; some of ya'll know who she is) had a slip and fall accident so I took her to the ER, so I couldn't come out and play. She's doing fine, she just needs to stay at home, and I will be there with her. But I'm glad you guys had fun! I will be gone for another day or two but will pop back from time to time. I'm tell Shauncey you guys send your best. |
|||||||||
|
Bubba Ron Regular Member
|
danbus wrote: I'll tell Shauncey you guys send your best. Please do - it's good to hear that you were not staying at the gray bar hotel last night. |
|||||||||
|
DrMark Lone Star Veteran
|
Bubba Ron wrote: ....all in all, a very nice evening - we had 8 people together (most OCing) and walked all over downtown Norfolk without incident. Thank you for the update. |
|||||||||
|
Bubba Ron Regular Member
|
DrMark wrote: Bubba Ron wrote:....all in all, a very nice evening - we had 8 people together (most OCing) and walked all over downtown Norfolk without incident. You're welcome - we hope you can join us someday soon. |
|||||||||
|
DeadCenter Regular Member
|
Bubba Ron wrote: Just for the record, we had 8 folks show for the short notice dinner last night at Jillians (Waterside Norfolk). We had a very nice meal, with a super view of the river - no problems, or even questions, at all. We then headed back outside to see the areas where each of the three seperate harrassments took place, again - no problems (we did have some sheep stares though) and after a walk from Nauticus back down the waterfront to just below the catwalk going over to Jillians, we stopped and chatted for several minutes, when another of our buddies from Yorktown showed up - so the conversation continued....all in all, a very nice evening - we had 8 people together (most OCing) and walked all over downtown Norfolk without incident. And thats the way it should be. |
|||||||||
|
danbus Regular Member
|
Minor update: Filed the 2nd FOIA for the second infringement of rights. Got the CHP today (paid 6/4/07 arrived 7/11/07). |
|||||||||
|
Reverend73 Founder's Club Member
|
What's the word on the first FOIA, it has been 5 business days, you should have the stuff or have a written statement detailing why they need 7 more days |
|||||||||
|
danbus Regular Member
|
Oh yeah! They did send me a letter saying they need more time. A Lt. also called me just to make sure that he gets ALL the items I requested. Last edited on Wed Jul 11th, 2007 07:30 pm by danbus |
|||||||||
|
longwatch Founder's Club Member
|
Keep us posted, oh and NACHOS! |
|||||||||
|
DeadCenter Regular Member
|
danbus wrote: Minor update: NICE! -- CONGRATS ON THE CHP DC |
|||||||||
|
Bubba Ron Regular Member
|
danbus wrote: Got the CHP today (paid 6/4/07 arrived 7/11/07). Congrats my friend!!!! |
|||||||||
|
psmartin Regular Member
|
danbus wrote: Minor update: Congrat's on the CHP, we hope you will continue to OC as often. Although this is just my opinion, having a CHP gives the police a LOT LESS to hassle you about, and if they do hassle you, it will reflect worse to "Internal Affairs" than hassling a "BMWAG" with no CHP. |
|||||||||
|
danbus Regular Member
|
I'm still going to OC, but there are a few places that I would be better off CCing. I just get to OC with a piece of paper that says I can CC. |
|||||||||
|
blk Regular Member 
|
danbus wrote: Minor update: Congrats on the CHP....hope you don't have to file any more FOIAs. |
|||||||||
|
tarzan1888 Regular Member
|
danbus wrote: Minor update: Way to go. This gives you another option. Attached Image (viewed 505 times): |
|||||||||
|
Dutch Uncle Activist Member
|
Great news! Now you can wear your BMWAG hat while CC'ing and Shauncey won't freak out anymore! |
|||||||||
|
danbus Regular Member
|
I can also go to the Hamtpon Wal-Mart and buy ammo while carrying, yay! |
|||||||||
|
LoveMyCountry State Researcher
|
danbus wrote:I can also go to the Hamtpon Wal-Mart and buy ammo while carrying, yay! Watch "The High Cost of Low Price" and you won't go back to WalMart. I did and I won't. Check it out at http://www.walmartmovie.com . I found it at my local library. LoveMyCountry |
|||||||||
|
Falcon118 Regular Member 
|
Congrats danbus. Kepp on OCing |
|||||||||
|
DoubleR Activist Member 
|
Good show, danbus. A BIG Congrats!!! |
|||||||||
|
AbNo Regular Member
|
LoveMyCountry wrote:danbus wrote: Could you take that pseudo Michael Moore {not-nice descriptive term} somewhere else? I already hate going in there as is, mind you.... I go to the store to shop, not watch TV! (the ones hanging from the ceiling) Which is why I go elsewhere. |
|||||||||
|
Dutch Uncle Activist Member
|
Dan, I re-read your post, and see that Hampton got the CCW to you in 5 weeks. They used to drag their feet and blow people off for complaining, but I guess they've finally learned to stop that. Bit by bit, folks..... My congrats, of course, but since you started by OC'ing, you'll never be able to experience that strange initial feeling that EVERYONE is looking at you and can tell that you are concealing!Enjoy! |
|||||||||
|
DrMark Lone Star Veteran
|
I'm surprised how many here <http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=24&t=273908> are supportive of the behavior of the police. |
|||||||||
|
Pa. Patriot State Researcher
|
DrMark wrote: I'm surprised how many here <http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=24&t=273908> are supportive of the behavior of the police. Sheeple with guns. With the way public schools are expect it to get MUCH worse. |
|||||||||
|
LoveMyCountry State Researcher
|
AbNo wrote: LoveMyCountry wrote: What you tallkin' 'bout Willis? Michael Moore plays loose and fast with the truth, are you saying that the info in this movie is false? Seriously, I want to know. LoveMyCountry |
|||||||||
|
LEO 229 Regular Member
|
Just read that AR-15 thread. Sounds like some over-reaction to a man with a holstered gun. This all goes back to training.... As a LEO... you cannot take the callers word completely. You still have to see some things for yourself so that you can form your own opinion. Taking a moment to observe the person reported as being "near" the bank armed would have been appropriate. If they saw a gun in his hand... Then they can take appropriate action. |
|||||||||
|
SicSemperTyrannis Regular Member
|
Anyone can come into my credit union (legally armed) anytime they want to. Just walk right in! As long as your gun is in your holster (and not in your hand), we'll be fine! I recently reminded our security guard and my assistant manager and teller supervisor of our companies lack of a policy regarding firearms carried by members, and how I expect open carriers to be treated - which is just like any other member. Credit unions are owned by their members - and are not-for profit. Because of this, they pay higher dividends on deposit accounts, charge less interest on loans, and have fewer and lower fees. Credit unions also specialize in serving "everyday people" - not just catering to the wealthy. Virginia Credit Union is one of the worlds very largest credit unions, with over 1.4 billion dollars in assets and 12 branches in the metro Richmond area (as well as branches in Fredericksburg and Stafford) and 6 more branches planned over the next couple years. The Downtown branch of Virginia Credit Union is an especially friendly place. Private message me if you want more information. Why support a bank that forbids open carry and will pay you less and charge you more? Why not go to your bank, tell them you are closing your accounts because of their irrational gun policies, and let them know you are opening your accounts at a place where you feel welcome? Last edited on Sat Jul 14th, 2007 12:35 am by SicSemperTyrannis |
|||||||||
|
AbNo Regular Member
|
Tyrannis, did you pay Bob and Mike to run that ad? |
|||||||||
|
danbus Regular Member
|
UPDATE: So I finally go down to city hall to pick up my 1st FOIA. I asked for 5 items. I only recieved 2. The lady (in charge I guess) tells me "well, thats all we have". BULLSKATE!!!!! The letter they sent me stated they have found all the info and now they say "that's all we have". I'm highly upset and will be happy to be among friends at the dinner tonight. |
|||||||||
|
bayboy42 Regular Member
|
So what did they provide? |
|||||||||
|
AbNo Regular Member
|
Wow Dan. Sounds like you might need to take this over someone's head. I'd give them a chance to come clean first. (no I wouldn't) |
|||||||||
|
Pa. Patriot State Researcher
|
They've had enough chance to make good and have not. By now they are full aware of what they are dealing with and facing. Therefor it should be assumed that they will not comply unless ordered to. |
|||||||||
|
Dutch Uncle Activist Member
|
It sounds like Norfolk's bureaucracy is something out of a Franz Kafka novel. (Anyone remember "The Trial"?) At this point, it seems like Manassas was friendly territory compared to Norfolk. The 28th will be really interesting if 50-100 of us VCDL folks show up and start a dialog. That city needs a major lesson in civics. |
|||||||||
|
mvpel Regular Member
|
$10,000 from the City of Norfolk: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum66/15891.html |
|||||||||
|
nitrovic Regular Member 
|
OC-Glock19 wrote: Holy crap, Dan. Sorry you got treated that way. I hate to say it, but it's becoming more and more evident to me that LEOs really do profile based on color. I had an errand at my bank yesterday and I walked in with my 1911 cocked and locked. I had three transactions, so I was there for several minutes, and other than initial glances at my holstered handgun nobody paid me any undue attention. I'm lily white. I guess color still makes a difference in the way people treat us. (sigh)I don't think it has anything to do with color. It's got to do with carrying a gun in front of a bank. Obviously they got a call about it. I agree it was the wrong response by the officers, but the only thing that made this a "race" issue was the hat the OP had on. Were all the OC guys in the Manassas incident black? Color doesn't make a difference. Last edited on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 10:05 pm by nitrovic |
|||||||||
|
nitrovic Regular Member
|
BobCav wrote: Tomahawk wrote:I agree he was treated wrong, but "brutalized"?? Where did that happen?I wonder if I can get a shirt that says, "I support black men with guns"... |
|||||||||
|
nitrovic Regular Member
|
LEO 229 wrote: Just read that AR-15 thread.Very true. The only training in most academies has to do with "bad guy with a gun" calls. I will actually bring this up to our academy staff, makes sense to have a scenario where it is a "good" guy OC'ing a gun. |
|||||||||
|
mvpel Regular Member
|
I don't think it has anything to do with color. It's got to do with carrying a gun in front of a bank. People can call, and officers can respond all they want, whether the gun is being carried in front of a bank, a preschool, an old-folks' home, a cemetery, or a flippin' zoo. What the officers CANNOT DO is violate civil rights. Apparently Norfolk City has been given a $10,000 lesson to that effect. |
|||||||||
|
mvpel Regular Member
|
I agree he was treated wrong, but "brutalized"?? Where did that happen? Try when the officer drew a gun and pointed it at him. That's a threat of DEADLY FORCE, and if an ordinary person did that to some random person on the street who's minding his own business violating no law, they'd be in JAIL, not merely having their employer cough up $10,000. |
|||||||||
|
Doug Huffman Regular Member
|
'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.' |
|||||||||
|
nitrovic Regular Member
|
mvpel wrote: The ordinary person doesn't have police arrest powers and get called to "man with a gun" type of calls. Not a good comparison. I still don't see that as "brutalized".I agree he was treated wrong, but "brutalized"?? Where did that happen? |
|||||||||
|
nitrovic Regular Member
|
Doug Huffman wrote: Once again, cut and paste. It would be nice if you could come up with your own thoughts and have an adult conversation.'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.' |
|||||||||
|
nakedshoplifter Regular Member
|
nitrovic wrote: Once again, cut and paste. It would be nice if you could come up with your own thoughts and have an adult conversation. Dude, I've been laughing at Doug's cynical posts for two years now. Not only is what he has to say funny, it's blunt, to the point, and mostly right on the money. I'm fairly certain Doug could run mental circles around you, and just about any other biped on this blue orb. |
|||||||||
|
LEO 229 Regular Member
|
Not looking for flames here..... But there are times when a local government will decide what is cheaper... Paying some guy off.... or the cost of having to go to a long trial. $10,000 is nothing as compared to having a trial and it does not mean they admit any wrong doing. It would have been far different if a jury agreed with him and gave him a payment instead of him just taking a settlement. I was part of a civil suit and we are asked... "Do you want us to pay him something or do you want to go to trial?" We all agreed to go to trial and he did not show up. |
|||||||||
|
mvpel Regular Member
|
nitrovic wrote: The ordinary person doesn't have police arrest powers and get called to "man with a gun" type of calls. Not a good comparison. I still don't see that as "brutalized". Have you ever been held at gunpoint and shouted at by an extremely keyed-up individual for no lawful reason? I haven't, personally, but I can imagine that if I were, I'd consider it to be "grossly ruthless or unfeeling." |
|||||||||
|
nitrovic Regular Member
|
mvpel wrote: nitrovic wrote:I have been held at gunpoint before for a very unlawful reason. I was not "brutalized" by that experience however. If the guy would have shot me first then indeed I would have been very "brutalized". I don't know what the responding officers were told on the call or what their side is, so I really can't comment on that.The ordinary person doesn't have police arrest powers and get called to "man with a gun" type of calls. Not a good comparison. I still don't see that as "brutalized". |
|||||||||
|
nitrovic Regular Member
|
nakedshoplifter wrote: nitrovic wrote:They are actually rarely "right on the money", and no, he has never "run circles around me". Just because you agree with him does not make him right. I haven't seen many instances where his rants are even close to correct in regards to legal and police issues. I can cut and paste all day long, it would just show I can't think for myself and form my own opinions.Once again, cut and paste. It would be nice if you could come up with your own thoughts and have an adult conversation. |
|||||||||
|
LEO 229 Regular Member
|
mvpel wrote: nitrovic wrote:The ordinary person doesn't have police arrest powers and get called to "man with a gun" type of calls. Not a good comparison. I still don't see that as "brutalized". I have been held at gunpoint two times.... Nothing brutal about it. |
|||||||||
|
glockfan Regular Member 
|
Well, now, no more thoughts of Hi-Point firearms for Dan! I suppose he's packing a Wilson Combat Elite 1911 these days? |
|||||||||
|
Doug Huffman Regular Member
|
Thank you NSL. An opinion, like the other thing that stinks that we all have, can be no deeper than its foundations intellectual or physical. I wonder if the flatfeet (to put on not too deep a point) has read Lewis Carroll or much else beyond his AA syllabus and departmental SOP? |
|||||||||
|
nitrovic Regular Member
|
Doug Huffman wrote: Thank you NSL.Doug, you have demonstrated you have very little knowledge in the field of law and even less in law enforcement. Just keep to posting your cute little cut and paste thoughts from other people. BTW, I have a B.A., not A.A, just FYI. Furthermore, I do not rely on reading other people's opinions to form my own. I do take other's opinions into account. However, I have LIFE experience in the military, civilian LE, and the private sector. I have been around the world and visited many different cultures. I form my own opinions. You stick to plagiarizing others bud, it suits you just fine. Last edited on Tue Sep 9th, 2008 01:51 pm by nitrovic |
|||||||||
|
Tucker6900 Regular Member 
|
HankT wrote: cato wrote: I have an issue with some of these statements about voice/video recordings. I have been told, by Attorneys and LE alike, that if you are out in public, there is no expectation of privacy. Also, as a servant to the public, employed by the public, a LEO can not prevent anyone from recording any public conversation at any time. So, one would not have to inform ANYONE that they are recording a converstation in a public place. |
|||||||||
|
peter nap Regular Member 
|
Tucker6900 wrote: HankT wrote:cato wrote: You are correct Tucker. No need to inform. Even in private, as long as you are a party to the conversation, you may record. Virginia is a one party consent state. This includes telephone calls. |
|||||||||
|
Nelson_Muntz Activist Member 
|
LEO 229 wrote: I have been held at gunpoint two times.... Maybe not brutal. IANAL or pretend to be, but isn't it something like assault and/or battery? And if a LEO does it without a legal reason to, isn't it as bad as when a citizen does it to another citizen without reason? |
|||||||||
|
tripledipper Regular Member
|
After reading Dan's original thread on this matter I cannot see in any way, shape or form that he was "brutalized". I have been held at gunpoint also and was not traumatized by the event. The LEO's were obviously not happy campers, but were simply responding to a call about a "man with a gun". Were the callers more specific about the ethnicity of Dan? Was he being stereotyped? Was the cop wrong for saying that if Dan was looking for attention, especially wearing that hat, he was getting it? They just saw no humor in it. I have no problem with the outcome as it may be absolutely correct that a person of another race might have been treated differently, however, they also probably would not be 10K richer. |
|||||||||
|
AbNo Regular Member
|
tripledipper wrote: The LEO's were obviously not happy campers, but were simply responding to a call about a "man with a gun". OMG, man with a hat! OMG, man with a red shirt! OMG, man with some car keys! Not sure from where you hail, Triple, but all four of those scenarios are legal. |
|||||||||
|
mvpel Regular Member
|
I've dropped the "brutalized" dead-horse beating, won't everyone else, please? |
|||||||||
|
tripledipper Regular Member
|
AbNo, I understand it was legal, but as my CHP safety class instructor told us, "If you want to open carry walking down Granby Street, don't be surprised if a citizen calls 911 on you and until LE arrives they don't know the exact nature of the call and you may be challenged". |
|||||||||
|
LEO 229 Regular Member
|
Nelson_Muntz wrote: LEO 229 wrote:I have been held at gunpoint two times.... It really all depends on the situation.... Pointing a gun is NOT an assault but instead is a brandishing. It is expected that the police will use their guns and point them as needed during their tour of duty. It would be very hard to have a cop charged with brandishing unless what he was doing was so wrong in every way. In the OP's case... he was armed and a call was made on him. It was a judgement call and decided he would be taken into investigative custody and did so at gun point. Now if a LEO was to do this to someone who was not obviously armed and selected for absolutely no reason... he could be in some big trouble. But in this case.... we have a suspicious person with a gun. So the officer probably would be given some latitude. |
|||||||||
|
Tess Founder's Club Member 
|
LEO 229 wrote: It really all depends on the situation.... Damn, LEO -- I was all set to agree with you until you last sentence. What made Dan a suspicious person, in the original instance? He had a holstered firearm and was not, as much as we know, brandishing, threatening, fidgeting, or whatever. How does that make him any more threatening then than he was on camera during the VCDL picnic? |
|||||||||
|
Nelson_Muntz Activist Member
|
LEO 229 wrote: Pointing a gun is NOT an assault but instead is a brandishing. So, if a citizen points a gun at a LEO, it is also brandishing? |
|||||||||
|
Thundar Regular Member 
|
Nelson_Muntz wrote: LEO 229 wrote:Pointing a gun is NOT an assault but instead is a brandishing. No, that is assault. |
|||||||||
|
AbNo Regular Member
|
Well, ONE of you post a relevant section of code. |
|||||||||
|
Thundar Regular Member
|
LEO 229 wrote: Pointing a gun is NOT an assault but instead is a brandishing. It is expected that the police will use their guns and point them as needed during their tour of duty. It would be very hard to have a cop charged with brandishing unless what he was doing was so wrong in every way. There is no exception in the brandishing code for a police officer to brandish a firearm unless he is responding to another that is brandishing. It would not be hard at all to have a police officer charged. All one would have to do would be to appear before a magistrate and swear to the facts of the incident. Since it is not a felony (unless w/in 1000 ft of a school) the case can proceed without the interference, I mean assistance, of the DA. Link: http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-282 § 18.2-282. Pointing, holding, or brandishing firearm, air or gas operated weapon or object similar in appearance; penalty. A. It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured. However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense. Persons violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor or, if the violation occurs upon any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds or upon public property within 1,000 feet of such school property, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony. B. Any police officer in the performance of his duty, in making an arrest under the provisions of this section, shall not be civilly liable in damages for injuries or death resulting to the person being arrested if he had reason to believe that the person being arrested was pointing, holding, or brandishing such firearm or air or gas operated weapon, or object that was similar in appearance, with intent to induce fear in the mind of another. C. For purposes of this section, the word "firearm" means any weapon that will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel single or multiple projectiles by the action of an explosion of a combustible material. The word "ammunition," as used herein, shall mean a cartridge, pellet, ball, missile or projectile adapted for use in a firearm. (Code 1950, § 18.1-69.2; 1968, c. 513; 1975, cc. 14, 15; 1990, cc. 588, 599; 1992, c. 735; 2003, c. 976; 2005, c. 928.) |
|||||||||
|
Thundar Regular Member
|
BTW Danbus, Thank you again for having the fortitude to stand up for what is right. You have done more for the RKBA in VA, and freedom in general, than we could have hoped for when this started. Live Free or Die, Thundar |
|||||||||
|
LEO 229 Regular Member
|
Thundar wrote: LEO 229 wrote:Pointing a gun is NOT an assault but instead is a brandishing. It is expected that the police will use their guns and point them as needed during their tour of duty. It would be very hard to have a cop charged with brandishing unless what he was doing was so wrong in every way. So are you saying that an officer is prohibited from drawing his gun unless the subject has a gun? |
|||||||||
|
Nelson_Muntz Activist Member
|
Ok. So according to paragraph A. I can point a gun at a LEO if I'm engaged in excusable or justifiable self defense. In that case, I have neither brandished, nor committed an assault on the officer. IAW paragraph B. however, the LEO can be charged with brandishing for pulling a weapon on me unless I was already pointing, holding or brandishing a firearm. And he can be charged with a felony if he does so on or within 1000 ft. of school grounds. |
|||||||||
|
peter nap Regular Member
|
Thundar wrote: Nelson_Muntz wrote:LEO 229 wrote:Pointing a gun is NOT an assault but instead is a brandishing. No.....I expect he would be charged with attempted capital murder of a police officer! |
|||||||||
|
LEO 229 Regular Member
|
Nelson_Muntz wrote: Ok. So according to paragraph A. I can point a gun at a LEO if I'm engaged in excusable or justifiable self defense. In that case, I have neither brandished, nor committed an assault on the officer. "However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense" I am not sure what you guys want to hear. You all know what is allowed. An officer using his gun lawfully in in the course of his job will be viewed as excusable. I citizen pointing a gun as you suggest is probably not going to be viewed the same. |
|||||||||
|
tripledipper Regular Member
|
Certainly not the exact same circumstances, but you have to give it to Charles Moose, who knew how to play it both ways, LEO and plaintiff! |
|||||||||
|
LEO 229 Regular Member
|
Nelson_Muntz wrote: LEO 229 wrote:Pointing a gun is NOT an assault but instead is a brandishing. The State of Virginia has a code to cover display of a gun. Otherwise... the pointing of a gun could be an assault even if assaults are typically those involving physical force used against another. |
|||||||||
|
longwatch Founder's Club Member
|
I think this good discussion is getting into issues that justify their own (rather than a year old) thread. Just a suggestion. |
|||||||||
|
peter nap Regular Member
|
longwatch wrote: I think this good discussion is getting into issues that justify their own (rather than a year old) thread. Just a suggestion. A pretty good suggestion! |
|||||||||
|
Neplusultra Regular Member 
|
LEO 229 wrote: So are you saying that an officer is prohibited from drawing his gun unless the subject has a gun? I imagine, IANAL, that he is restricted by the same standards as a citizen is in regards to pulling a gun out. Is he not? |
|||||||||
|
Nelson_Muntz Activist Member
|
The code cited said any person. That should cover citizens as long as they fulfill the stated 'excusable or justifiable defense'. But I was just reading literally. |
|||||||||
|
LEO 229 Regular Member
|
longwatch wrote: I think this good discussion is getting into issues that justify their own (rather than a year old) thread. Just a suggestion. Not sure what you are getting at. The current discussion deals DIRECTLY with things that happened in this event. Can an officer point his gun at someone and be charged as per state code??!! There seems be be some thought that an officer... such as in this event... is prohibited from pointing his weapon at anyone unless that person has a weapon. Would this be better in another thread? Perhaps.. but it is almost played out anyway.. Neplusultra wrote: LEO 229 wrote:So are you saying that an officer is prohibited from drawing his gun unless the subject has a gun? IMO.... This state code does three things...
The code cited said any person. That should cover citizens as long as they fulfill the stated 'excusable or justifiable defense'. But I was just reading literally. I agree that the state code lacks a full exclusion written out to specifically cover the police. I submit that it is not there because it is not needed. The police are known to and it is generally accepted that the police can and will deploy their firearms when necessary. I doubt a magistrate would issue a warrant. If you wanted to apply this law towards police work it... would prevent them from drawing their gun until a threat was blatantly obvious. Otherwise, they could be charged every time they drew their gun out of the holster. The officer would have to react and draw while the criminal already has his gun out but hidden from view during a high risk stop. This means we are giving a criminal the advantage. I see it the same as having citizens in DC lock up their guns and keep them unloaded in their house. The criminal breaking in gets a head start to harm them while they get their gun out. I think we can all agree that the DC law is BS, right? |
|||||||||
|
Thundar Regular Member
|
LEO 229 wrote: Nelson_Muntz wrote:Ok. So according to paragraph A. I can point a gun at a LEO if I'm engaged in excusable or justifiable self defense. In that case, I have neither brandished, nor committed an assault on the officer. LEO 229, Excusable and justifiable are points of common law in Virginia left to the judge or jury depending on whether the defendant asks for a jury trial. The justifiable or excusable defense starts with the confession, I committed the offense, but...... You make the assumption that police "doing their job" would get a pass. I have to say that as a juror I would convict the police officer that points his weapon without fear for his life or to protect innocent human life. Simply being armed, like Danbus was is not sufficient justification for a police officer to place another human being in fear for his or her life. I would not convict a police officer who drew his weapon and kept it at the ready. That is a reasonable precaution for anybody to take. |
|||||||||
|
LEO 229 Regular Member
|
Thundar wrote: LEO 229, Actually... you are incorrect. Before you can get an arrest warrant.... the magistrate is going to review the code section and hear the details of the crime. If the exclusion applies he will not issue the warrant. The whole idea behind the magistrate system is to establish probable cause and to ensure the charge against the person is valid. They are the first line to keep invalid charges out of the court system. How about if the officer charges both you and the assailant after you draw your weapon in what is obvious self defense? Are you required to get a lawyer and appear before a judge and jury so they can agree that what you did was in fact... excusable? I think not. How fair would that be to you? Ladies and gentlemen.... the victim IS on trial today. What a waste of time!! It is always best practice to keep your firearm at the low ready to reduce the risk but there are times when you see a threat that you want to have the total advantage. What should the officer do if the subject has a gun in his hand? Does he still keep it at the low ready? How does the officer know the guy obviously armed is not a quick draw? Some people can draw in shoot in a fraction of a second. The same amount of time it takes for the officer to react to the threat and move from the low ready to on target. |
|||||||||
|
Thundar Regular Member
|
LEO 229 wrote: Thundar wrote:LEO 229, Exactly what exclusion are you talking about? |
|||||||||
|
LEO 229 Regular Member
|
Thundar wrote: LEO 229 wrote:Thundar wrote:LEO 229, "However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense." |
|||||||||
|
Thundar Regular Member
|
LEO 229 wrote: Thundar wrote:I am sorry that you fail to comprehend the common law principles of excusable and justifiable, neither of which is an exclusion.LEO 229 wrote:Thundar wrote:LEO 229, |
|||||||||
|
LEO 229 Regular Member
|
Thundar wrote: I am sorry that you fail to comprehend the common law principles of excusable and justifiable, neither of which is an exclusion. And I am sorry that you often come off with a very negative tone here. If you would open your mind and not simply shut down and plug your ears (close your eyes) when I post something.... perhaps.... you can see the light Carol-Ann.. Walk into the light!! To help you one last time as I lead you to the water knowing I cannot force you to actually drink..... The code is clearly written to indicate that it shall not be apply in a case of..... "any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense." That being.. and exclusion in this matter. Some people here can be so bull headed... and I thought I was bad!!! |
|||||||||