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OpenCarry.org - Discussion Forum > Open Carry Brigade > News & Political Alerts > College Gunman Drill Holds Gun to Professors Head - Students didn't know it was a drill
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| OpenCarry.org - Discussion Forum > Open Carry Brigade > News & Political Alerts > College Gunman Drill Holds Gun to Professors Head - Students didn't know it was a drill
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Thundar Regular Member 
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What were the police thinking, putting a gun to the head of the professor?? Link here: http://www.wtkr.com/Global/story.asp?S=7923804 Local College Causes Stir With Gunman Drill Feb 25, 2008 07:26 PM EST Some Elizabeth State University students are upset after being almost scared to death by a recent safety drill on campus. On Friday, an undercover campus officer barged into a history class in the Moore building and held the class hostage. According to students, he even held a gun to the professor's head! It was all part of an emergency alert system drill that the school was planning for months. Problem is...not everyone knew it was a drill. Four days earlier, the school did begin sending out emails to students saying there would be some sort of emergency drill on Friday. It did not specify where or exactly what time the drill would occur. It also did not mention the nature of the drill. Then, on Friday, a few minutes before it all went down, the school sent out an alert saying there would be an armed intruder in Moore building who would be detained by campus police. Again, it did not specify which classroom. However, only about half the campus has voluntarily signed up for the instant text alerts to their phones, so most people in that particular classroom, including the professor in that class, had no idea it was a drill. By phone on Monday morning, Professor Jingbin Wang said he was shocked and did not know it was a drill. "Everyone was scared," he said. He said some students were prepared to jump out the window. Another colleague told him that her students were using tables and chairs to block the door of their classroom. "Her heart was racing," he said about his fellow teacher. "I cannot believe a university would subject their own students to such a horrific event," one family member of a student in that classroom wrote us. " They were terrified! It is extremely poor judgement on the part of the administration at ECSU." Effective training for students in the wake of the Virginia Tech and Northern Illinois University shootings? Or a safety drill taken one step too far? Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs Anthony Brown took our questions Monday afternoon. "If there are people who have concerns and they were surprised, it was not our intention to surprise or shock anybody and if that occurs we are there for them," said Brown. "I really offer our sincere apology, because that was not the intent of this." Then we asked him point blank, "Don't you think a normal person would be shocked if the person coming at their professor with a gun was a campus officer? "Well, we did send out emails five days in advance and continued it through with alerts," said Brown. We then pointed out that those initial alerts did not mention a gunman! "No," he said. "That alert occurred on the day, on the day of the event." So then we pressed further, that isn't it true that the school was absolutely aware that not all students would get that alert because not all students are signed up for the alert. "That's absolutely true," he said. "That's where we have to test out the system and our communication among each other. Because if your neighbor knows something and you don't that tests something, that tests the communication. We should look out for each other, so that's something we learned. Paper and text and emails are one thing, but word of mouth is perhaps most important." Again, word of mouth obviously did not spread around in time for the students in this classroom to get the warning this was a drill. One student we talked to requested a private meeting with administration regarding her terrifying experience during the drill. For now, the school is standing by the drill, saying that the administration, campus police and students learned from the experience. More drills are planned. If you would like to sign up for the school's alerts to come instantly to your cell or your email, head to http://www.ecsc.edu and look for the sparkly icon at the very top of the homepage called PIER Emergency Communications System. #### I really hope they rethink the drills. They are a tragedy waiting to happen. If you were in class with a concealed firearm would you hvae shot the undecover police officer posing as gunman? Last edited on Tue Feb 26th, 2008 12:53 pm by Thundar |
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MetalChris Regular Member
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I would've definitely drawn down on him, causing him to wet his pants. That is assuming his gun was unloaded for the purposes of the drill...you never know these days. Damn cops!  |
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Doug Huffman Regular Member 
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Thundar wrote: Some Elizabeth State University students are upset after being almost scared to death by a recent safety drill on campus. Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety. Even the use of the word by the 'administrators' is as thoughtless as Joycelyn Elders' "Its for the chilldruun!" Because they are in a banning stuff mood, will they ban handtools that resemble pistols or mandate they be colored pussy-pink (merely hot-pink toys has not been effective). Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA KMA$$ |
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Thundar Regular Member
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Doug Huffman wrote: Thundar wrote:The painted pink gun is not a bad idea. When I used to practice security breech drills working for Uncle Sam the brechers carried plastic guns that were a distinctive blue or red color. We used these distinctly painted prop guns to minimize the possibility of confusion and tragedy.Some Elizabeth State University students are upset after being almost scared to death by a recent safety drill on campus. Last edited on Tue Feb 26th, 2008 01:35 pm by Thundar |
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Doug Huffman Regular Member
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We had a particularly unpleasant 'federal auditor' (name and agency withheld) try an authorized security breach knowing that the guard was armed without ammunition. The junior enlistedman butted the jerk with his shotgun and laid him out at gun point while sounding the GA. Skipper couldn't decide whether to @#$% or go blind with pride or prejudice. On my first ship (USS Paricutin AE-18), there were no events passed as "this is a drill, this is a drill." Drills instill complacency and we were to always respond as to the real thing. I was big and junior so my job was to run with a Red-Devil blower on my shoulder. Security alarm systems were my responsibility. A supervisory-circuit alarm had me at the point of a loaded Thompson held by an idiot GM. His ships entertainment circuit failed soon after. Power to the telephone man! |
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Liko81 Founder's Club Member 
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Thundar wrote: I really hope they rethink the drills. They are a tragedy waiting to happen. If you were in class with a concealed firearm would you hvae shot the undecover police officer posing as gunman? Well CC is outlawed in Texas college buildings, but let's assume for a minute that particular point of law wasn't in question and I was carrying. Yes, I would draw. Whether I fired depends on the events of the next split second. If the gunman so much as twitches in my general direction he's getting a double-tap. I would hope a police officer, trained in tactical situations and holding either a prop or empty gun would know not to do anything stupid. Wouldn't the Brady Bunch just love for a drill to turn deadly. I can see the headlines: "CHL Holder Murders Officer During College Drill". That's all they'd need to counter and eliminate all opposition to gun-free zones and support for concealed carry laws all in one fell swoop. They would absolutely have a field day. Of course the rational response is, "well, we now have proof that CHLs in schools make the gunman the only casualty"  But it's kinda hard to think that way when there's a police officer dead by a CHL's hand.Last edited on Tue Feb 26th, 2008 03:54 pm by Liko81 |
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deepdiver Activist Member 
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Stupid. Irreponsible. Wreckless. A few thoughts that come to mind .... |
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Thundar Regular Member
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Would this be a good poll question? |
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Doug Huffman Regular Member
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To what end, a poll? We know how each of us thinks of 'safety' from our previous postings. The 'others' will no more attend to the results of our poll of opinions than we do to CNN's push-polls. Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA KMA$$ |
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unrequited Regular Member 
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Holy hell. You gotta be kidding me. I'm glad I wasn't sitting in that classroom. http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/968432.html An armed man who burst into a classroom at Elizabeth City State University was role-playing in an emergency response drill, but neither the students nor assistant professor Jingbin Wang knew that. Who in the hell thought this would be anything but a disaster? I hope heads roll in the administration for this, and I'm glad (and at the same time upset) that no CHP holders stopped him with a not-so-fake gun. |
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Doug Huffman Regular Member
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http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum4/8481.html |
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compmanio365 Regular Member 
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Hmm, yeah, my thought was "Well, lucky for him there wasn't someone who chose to be armed even in school in that class......" I know what I would have done had I been there......... |
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Decoligny Regular Member 
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They need to take a lesson from the military. Since it was an "excercise" to eliminate to possibility of the players getting killed, they should have entered saying "EXCERCISE, EXCERCISE, EXCERCISE, this room is under simulated attack by a simulated deranged killer with a simulated weapon, This in only an Excercise" Since this excercise was to test the response of Security, then the students and the teacher did not have to be put into such a realistic scenario without any prior explanation. |
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DrewGunner Regular Member
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WOW!!! What a horrible idea. That could have ended very very bad for that guy if some of us would have been in that classroom. |
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Dutch Uncle Activist Member 
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What kind of bone-headed idiot would burst in this way??? I almost wish one of the students had picked up a chair and clobbered that nincompoop over the head! I guess this exercise showed again that students are willing to be passive victims. Really sad.....  |
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DrewGunner Regular Member
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Doug Huffman wrote: Thundar wrote:Some Elizabeth State University students are upset after being almost scared to death by a recent safety drill on campus. Pussy-Pink...? I didn't get that color in my crayon box, dam.  |
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lockman State Researcher 
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If the students were detained at gunpoint (dummy gun or not) it would be kidnapping in most states. |
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jpierce Administrator 
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lockman wrote: If the students were detained at gunpoint (dummy gun or not) it would be kidnapping in most states. I mentioned that in the press release that I sent out. ************************************************************* OpenCarry.org Press Release - February 26th, 2008 ************************************************************* FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE ************************************************************* --------------------------------------------------------------------- College Class Held Hostage by Crazed Administration --------------------------------------------------------------------- On Friday, February 22nd, students in a history class in the Moore Building at Elizabeth City State University in Elizabeth City, NC, were startled when an armed man burst into the room, placed a gun to the professors head and held the entire class hostage. The professor, Jingbin Wang, was terrified as were other students in the Moore Building who barricaded themselves into classrooms or tried to jump out of windows. (1) Imagine the terror of parents and loved ones who received panicked cell phone calls from those who thought they might be facing death. Other students were almost certainly contemplating how to stage a last-ditch, desperate group attack on the gunman. Ultimately, the situation was resolved when the gunman abruptly announced that he was an undercover campus security officer who was participating in a preparedness drill. Amazingly, the administration of ECSU had planned and executed a preparedness drill which involved kidnapping a professor and a classroom full of students while brandishing a firearm! Neither the students nor the professor were aware of the drill. The university administration points to an email alert that was sent literally only minutes before the attack. They contend that the purpose of the test was to see how quickly an alert would pass by word of mouth from those students who had signed up for email alerts to those who had not. The answer, by the way, is "Not quickly enough". Regardless of the administration's thought process or reasons for the attack, these are not valid defenses to the crimes that were committed against those present in the Moore Building. And yes, crimes were committed. When you hold another person against their will at gunpoint, that is kidnapping. You cannot simply later put the gun away and say "I was kidding.". The same is true of placing a gun against a professor's head. A teaching contract does not obligate an instructor to allow themselves to be terrorized at the whim of the university administration. This entire episode placed the University, the state and the taxpayers in a position of immense liability. Had students been injured trying to flee the building then ECSU would have been liable and had any of the students, instructors or employees present in the Moore Building decided to fight back, then any resulting injuries or deaths would also have placed the taxpayers of North Carolina in an actionable position. Clearly the fallout from this disastrous decision is far from over. Some students have reportedly sought, or are planning to seek, counseling for the trauma they suffered and at least one student has asked to meet with the administration to discuss their future college plans. OpenCarry.org calls upon the State of North Carolina to take immediate action to terminate those in the ECSU administration who made this terrible decision. Anyone who could defend such a policy is in no way competent to be placed in a position of power over the lives of others. Furthermore, OpenCarry.org notes that North Carolina is one of only 16 states which makes it a crime for faculty, staff and adult students to legally carry firearms for self-defense and calls upon the North Carolina Legislature to amend their statutes to correct this injustice and place the lives of students above the politics of "Victim Disarmament Zones". John Pierce ########################## Contact anytime on gun stories: John Pierce/Mike Stollenwerk http://www.OpenCarry.org A national pro-gun Internet community with more than 3,900 registered members News media reports citing OpenCarry.org's perspective: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum63 ########################## FOOTNOTES --------------- 1) Local College Causes Stir With Gunman Drill, WTKR News Channel 3, Feb. 25, 2008, available at http://www.wtkr.com/global/story.asp?s=7923804 Last edited on Wed Feb 27th, 2008 11:36 pm by jpierce |
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jpierce Administrator
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The News & Observer quoted me in an story they did today. http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/968432.html Mock gunman terrifies students John Pierce of Bristol, Va., a spokesman for a pro-gun Internet group called OpenCarry.org, said the university's drill was poorly planned and dangerous. He said people in the class could have been killed or injured trying to escape or could have harmed the role player. He called for the state to make it legal for individuals to carry firearms for self-defense. He said North Carolina is one of 16 states that make it a crime for people to carry firearms on campuses. Last edited on Wed Feb 27th, 2008 11:40 pm by jpierce |
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MetalChris Regular Member
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Liko81 wrote: I would hope a police officer...would know not to do anything stupid. HA!  Last edited on Wed Feb 27th, 2008 11:48 pm by MetalChris |
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kmcdowel Regular Member 
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Here is what they should have done: Phase I: Killer armed with a paintball gun/pistol walks into a classroom and sees how many students he could have 'killed' before the email/text alert system notified people, and campus security showed up. I bet if he hit the right lecture he could get 300 students before the 'swat team' was mobilized. Phase II: Killer armed with a paintball gun/pistol walks into a classroom and sees how many students he could 'kill.' This time, every student is also armed with a paintball gun. See which phase results in less fatalities, and then the policy on that. Email and text messaging systems are reactive and worthless. |
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Tomahawk Regular Member 
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unrequited quoted:
And that pretty much says it all, doesn't it. |
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Citizen Founder's Club Member
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Tomahawk wrote: unrequited quoted: +1 |
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cato Regular Member 
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Wow I'm impressed. Mission accomplished. But they didn't debrief the students?   |
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nofoa Regular Member 
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I remember something like this happening right after viginia tech, it was at a elemtary school. All these 5-6th graders cowering in the corner screaming for mommy. Teacher with a mask. |
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Citizen Founder's Club Member
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Oh, lets just get lots of schools to do these tests. (sarcasm off) Then, when the next real gunman walks in, nobody will know its not a drill until blood starts pumping. Even the "cussing" smiley, and all of my USMC salty language are insufficient to express the my outrage over this. |
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Tomahawk Regular Member
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The training is apparently working. Nobody fought back, they all lined up to die as instructed, and waited for their brave police officers to come and save them. So apparently all is good here, nothing to get upset about, Citizen. |
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Pointman Regular Member 
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So basically, State-run institutions can disarm you, then hold you at gunpoint, because it's good for you? Assaulting a police officer carries a heavy sentence, and my understanding is that it doesn't matter if they are undercover and you don't know it's an officer. Is their next lesson: Defending yourself makes you a felon. |
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kmcdowel Regular Member
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After about 10 minutes, the class heard people talking outside the door, and campus police rushed in and subdued the man.again...enough time to kill each student in any one class. |
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WhiteFeather Regular Member 
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Pointman wrote;So basically, State-run institutions can disarm you, then hold you at gunpoint, because it's good for you? That may not be to far from the point... I have a few questions that maybe someone can answer... 1. Isn't illegal for a peace officer to point a weapon of any sort at an inocent victom without just cause? I was rather sure that would end you in jail and without a job right quick. 2. Is it me or does Mr. Brown seem to mock the entire event as if it were the greatest practical joke ever pulled? 3. How does a peace officer submit to this kind of retoric? I've been running this one around in my mind since I have a simular job. I would not submit to this type of action in my department. In fact I think I would quit on spot if they tried to go through with something like this. And lastly; what was to gain from this? What did they learn? Everyone knows that sending a message to people doesn't stop/prevent anything. So what was the purpose? |
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Doug Huffman Regular Member
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Perhaps one of our resident LEOs will answer your question. As to "How does a peace officer submit to this kind of retoric?" rhetoric I'm not certain what you're asking. If 'how does a PO submit?' then they may say "it's just a job" or "just following orders." They're not proof against unprincipled actions any more than any person and would not be made more accountable. Either we are equal or we are not - they carry guns where you cannot. |
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Custodian Regular Member 
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So... Take ONLINE courses AT HOME from North Carolina Colleges. NOW I Understand. |
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ConditionThree Activist Member 
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What an interesting and lethal way to find out whether or not the students were armed. Recently there was a study on Middle and High School students in my area where a large number of them claimed to have brought weapons to school- both knives and handguns. Now, they could be lying about bringing handguns, but I wonder if it occured to the phoney 'HT' that someone in defiance of campus prohibitions actually carried a loaded firearm with them to school for the express purpose of putting down an armed gunman, ALA VT and NIU. That's a pretty amazing gamble for a 'drill'. The odds are better than Russian Roulette, but that one loaded chamber could still come around. |
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WhiteFeather Regular Member
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My apologies Doug for thinking that word applied also to actions. His action was exaggerated and unnessasary. Perhaps "Dangerous Behavior" should have been used. |
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Doug Huffman Regular Member
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Accepted. No apology needed. I am sooo Good anmD mad at Wildblue.net and G00gle.com that my mouth is sour and nasty. I've just spent nine hours migrating my e-mail account to G00gle. They're individually POSs and now they're in series and squared. PHUI!!!!!!!!! If this is a portable e-mail addy then its too much of a PITA to portable again. |
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hsmith Regular Member 
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Of all the DUMB things I have ever heard, this ranks up there. I mean really, what moron thought this was a good idea? How could this EVER cross someones mind as a good idea. I hope the professor files suit with the university for undue stress or something of that nature. |
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DreQo State Researcher 
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"Going armed to the terror of the people" comes to mind. This is pure stupidity. I'm sorely dissapointed with this generation of children. Oh crap, this is MY generation. Why didn't someone throw a chair at this guy? |
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soloban Regular Member
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Someone needs to be fired over this $#@!. Holy hell....just imagine if some student had decided that despite the fact the CC is against the rules for students he is willing to take the risk. Imagine what the fall out would have been had this guy barged in the class with his unloaded gun for a security drill and said student decided to unload his G27 into this guy.... What a bunch of dumb@$$es. This is absolutely ridiculus. |
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Citizen Founder's Club Member
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Here is how you solve it. "Well, maybe if more colleges did this drill, students would finally realize how terrifying it is to be defenseless and start clamoring for the right to carry." Let some college administrators read that post. I bet it stops real quick. Heck we could even e-mail the sentiment to lots of university chancellors. |
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Joe Sixpack Regular Member
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ok let me get this straight.. not only did they know ahead of time that only roughly half the people was getting the alerts.. but they also withheld the nature of the drill.. and only released an alert that there would a ARMED man drill happening only minutes before it went down? and on top of that they did not have each students consent? is that right? OMFG, i heard nothing of this on the news.. this really tells you something about the media in this country.. when someones knocking boots you'll be the first to know but when some heavy stuff like this goes down they're no where to be found. how is this not a crime? i dont care if it was the police or not.. how is it not a crime? insighting panic, unlawful inprisonment, and assault with a deadly weapon (does'nt matter if it was loaded or not).. probably a bunch more i can't think of. this is so very wrong i can't believe ther is'nt any criminal charges / law suits / idiots being fired over this. if i told 1 out of 2 people i was gonna enter a school on monday with a unloaded weapon and run a drill do you think i would not goto prison for very long time? I can tell you with 100% certanty that not only would i have drawn on the cop but most likely would not even givin them the chance to speak.. (Draw,Bang!) even assuming they was givin the opertunity to speak and say they're a cop i would not belive them, it would'nt matter. i recently asked what happens if a undercover or plan clothes cop was to draw on you for no reason.. would you, 1. comply knowing it could be a criminal posing as a cop, could be shot or mugged 2. try to draw and kill the cop.. you're sent to prison forever 3. try to draw and the cop kills you, you're dead and the report will say the cop was neutralizing a gunman or other threat.. he's a hero and you're a stiff. to me this is a very scary situation, in this situation you probably wont have time to think.. |
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SFDoc Regular Member 
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DreQo wrote: snipped: For the past 30 years or more, the sheep have been led to the slaughter by being told over and over again when confronted with rape, robbery, murder, kidnapping, taken hostage, home invasion, or whatever you’re worst nightmare is, COMPLY, COMPLY, COMPLY, and let the professionals handle it. Even on the cop shows that feature citizens fighting back, someone almost always says you shouldn’t fight back or you shouldn’t take justice in your hands. This bs has been preached to the masses for so long that is all they know. |
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Doug Huffman Regular Member
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SFDoc wrote: DreQo wrote:snipped: For the past 30 years or more, the sheep have been led to the slaughter by being told over and over again when confronted with rape, robbery, murder, kidnapping, taken hostage, home invasion, or WTC 9/11/01, COMPLY, COMPLY, COMPLY, and let the professionals handle it. In this era of 'professional nail technicians' et cetera, does no one consider the significance of a claim of professionalism? How about 'credentialism' or 'authoritarianism' or the anathema of 'statism'? Either we are equal or we are not. Even here 'elite' is a curse except when the epithet is applied to your favorite 'ox' or 'team' or 'profession.' Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. Last edited on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 12:36 pm by Doug Huffman |
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imperialism2024 Regular Member 
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Absolutely ridiculous. Now my question is how the school faired in its "test". It's kind of suspicious that the articles don't mention how well security performed... It's also sickening that no one, especially when lined up against a wall, tried to rush him or anything. From high school through the present, I always carry a knife with me... for opening boxes, of course, but if need be, I can at least make an effort to protect myself and others. Even without one, I'd expect someone to try to disarm him. I'd like to think that it's a normal human reaction to try to fight back... especially if you've already acknowledged that you're "ready to die." If you know you're going to die, what's the downside to going for a long shot? I also take issue with schools' increasing persistance on students' signing up for text message alerts. I'd like the schools to at least have to get a warrant to get my mobile number... make it a little harder to track me. I dislike the idea of getting instructions on how to postpone my slaughter, as well. Oh, and knowing that my tuition money is being wasted on this adds to my frustration. |
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Doug Huffman Regular Member
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I sat in church today and agonized at being unarmed. A Reading was from Ephesians, "Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. For it is shameful even to mention what such people do secretly; but everything exposed by the light becomes visible..." I heard this in light of the CC/OC/No-C controversy. I hate the thought of having to knock my wife aside (she insists on sitting next to the aisle) and unarmed rush a BG when the shot would be so easy - range and background. |
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DoubleR Activist Member 
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Here are some pieces of info from the college in reference to the "Event"... Chancellor offers assistance from Counseling and Testing Center ECSU tests emergency preparedness plan |
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lockman State Researcher
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Doug, Is OC prohibited in churches in the Badger State? Or part of the school zone hodge podge? |
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XD40coyote Regular Member 
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I have been giving much thought to the sheeple indoctrination thing the last few days, and have come to the conclusion that sadly I am a product of it and it is DAMN HARD to rise above such brainwashing. My parents even drilled it into me by scaring me into not fighting back against bullies. I am 35 years old. In high school there was a seminar thing for girls on rape, nowhere did they say "get daddy's gun and shoot the rapist" LOL, in college it was "give the robber your money and don't antagonize them", instead I got a big dog and never had to worry about a robber. But never once was it stated " if only we had concealed carry( or ANY carry), then if some guy tries to rob you, you could shoot him in fear for your life". Everything around me was "guns are bad" anyway. Now granted, girls tend to be taught to not fight, to be nice and caring and lovey , and such girls grow into women who don't/won't fight even if they lose the sugar and spice part of being all nice and lovey dovey. I am an aberration! Not only am I not one to pick a fight, but I stayed a nice lovey dovey person and do not engage in ritual bitchiness like so many women do! It is a wrenching thing here, one side of me fighting with another side, like some saint fighting the wild animal. One side of me says to curl up and take abuse, the other says NO WAY. At least I know that the one side is the brainwashed sheeple, so that I can better fight it. Most people don't use the brain they were born with. |
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Doug Huffman Regular Member
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lockman wrote: Doug, Is OC prohibited in churches in the Badger State? Or part of the school zone hodge podge? No, open carry per se is not mentioned in Wisc. Statutes. There are prohibited places but not churches that I know. The root problem is the extra legal harassment promised and occasionally demonstrated by local law enforcement with DC and 'inciting' charges. |
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SFDoc Regular Member
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Clipped from: ECSU tests emergency preparedness plan: Less than 15 minutes later, the scenario ended and the intruder, Mr. Williams was escorted away from the building by his Campus Police peers. Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Cho kill 32 and wound 17 in about half that time?? |
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imperialism2024 Regular Member
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SFDoc wrote: Clipped from: ECSU tests emergency preparedness plan: But... but... the students were alerted on their cell phones! You stupid redneck gun nuts don't understand that if you show the gunman your text message alert on your cell phone, he won't shoot you because he'll realize his plan was foiled. |
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SFDoc Regular Member
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imperialism2024 wrote: SFDoc wrote:Clipped from: ECSU tests emergency preparedness plan: My bad , forgot that the word will save us and set us free. HOWEVER, did anyone make sure the BGs got that memo?????????? |
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imperialism2024 Regular Member
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SFDoc wrote: imperialism2024 wrote:SFDoc wrote:Clipped from: ECSU tests emergency preparedness plan: ...the BGs don't give out their personal information... |
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AbNo Regular Member 
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Dead gunman, and a LONG daamn legal battle. Though it does mention, in passing, that it was a "red plastic pistol". You know, just like you can do with this... http://www.lauerweaponry.com/duracoatcolors.cfm?colortype=stock&Category=220 Or this....  One of these is a real gun. Note the safe blue coloring.  (So is the other) |
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Toad Regular Member 
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I don't remember a hostage situation in any of the recent attacks in US schools. The criminal came in and just started murdering with out delay. So what exactly do they think they are training for? They are just making it more obvious that they are not capable of dealing with a fast acting mass murder situation that is becoming the common method used. Law enforcement will never be able to stop one before it is over and the body count is already high. When will the public at large wake up and say 'hay you people don't have a chance of stopping a Cho type of situation so from now on we will take of our own all of your laws to the contrary are now void'. |
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Toad Regular Member
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Double Tap...sorry Last edited on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 04:13 pm by Toad |
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imperialism2024 Regular Member
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Toad wrote: I don't remember a hostage situation in any of the recent attacks in US schools. The criminal came in and just started murdering with out delay. So what exactly do they think they are training for? They are just making it more obvious that they are not capable of dealing with a fast acting mass murder situation that is becoming the common method used. Law enforcement will never be able to stop one before it is over and the body count is already high. When will the public at large wake up and say 'hay you people don't have a chance of stopping a Cho type of situation so from now on we will take of our own all of your laws to the contrary are now void'. I think you nailed it there. They're planning for the situations in which unarmed students have some chance of survival beyond ammo capacity because they need to look like they're doing something... anything... and the sh**ple will buy it. Now they can say, "well, no armed student could prevent a hostage situation, and they would just make it worse!" and so on... |
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deepdiver Activist Member
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imperialism2024 wrote: Toad wrote:I don't remember a hostage situation in any of the recent attacks in US schools. The criminal came in and just started murdering with out delay. So what exactly do they think they are training for? They are just making it more obvious that they are not capable of dealing with a fast acting mass murder situation that is becoming the common method used. Law enforcement will never be able to stop one before it is over and the body count is already high. When will the public at large wake up and say 'hay you people don't have a chance of stopping a Cho type of situation so from now on we will take of our own all of your laws to the contrary are now void'. You guys are right on track. A hostage situation, especially one where the BG is holding a hostage against his own body with a weapon to the hostage's head is a MUCH different shoot scenario than someone barging into a room and opening fire. In the first, not only is it likely a damn hard shot given the stress of the moment but the intent is not clear either. In the scenario we keep seeing playing out with an active shooter barging into a room, there is no ambiguity of intent and since everyone else will be running away from the BG, as long as you are clear of the fleeing victims you most likely have a clear shot. I had not thought through this to the point that both of you did as to, on top of everything else, how unrealistic and unlike the real situations we have seen, this drill scenario really was. |
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imperialism2024 Regular Member
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deepdiver wrote: ...how unrealistic and unlike the real situations we have seen, this drill scenario really was. Yeah... now how would a suicidal-active-shooter drill go? *Campus PD cowboy opens door to lecture hall and sweeps gun through room firing blanks, reloading several times as students try to take cover behind plywood and air* CPD: Well, if I were real, you'd all be dead right now *60 seconds after he barges in, the planned "security" shows up early and takes him away* Not very comforting, eh?  |
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SFDoc Regular Member
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deepdiver wrote: imperialism2024 wrote:Toad wrote:I don't remember a hostage situation in any of the recent attacks in US schools. The criminal came in and just started murdering with out delay. So what exactly do they think they are training for? They are just making it more obvious that they are not capable of dealing with a fast acting mass murder situation that is becoming the common method used. Law enforcement will never be able to stop one before it is over and the body count is already high. When will the public at large wake up and say 'hay you people don't have a chance of stopping a Cho type of situation so from now on we will take of our own all of your laws to the contrary are now void'. After the Lobby Day at the GA, and the lies I heard about gun free zones making schools safer, I started looking for news articles on gun free zone shootings. From what I’ve found so far, from Nov. 1994 to Feb. 2008 there have been 134 armed attacks on public, private schools, colleges and universities. Of that, I’ve only found 3 cases where hostages were taken. I’m guessing there are others, just haven’t found them, yet. May 26, 1994 Union Ky. Boone County, Larry A Ryle High School: Clay Shrout kills his mother, father, and two younger sisters before taking 15 hostages in a trigonometry classroom. March 3, 2006 Greenwood, Indiana, Center Grove High School: 4 armed students: 3 15-year-old boys and 1 16-year-old boy were arrested for attempting to take several students hostage. Sept. 28, 2007 Oroville California, Greg Wright, 17, held three girls hostage at Las Plumas High School for nearly an hour after releasing twenty-seven other students and an instructor in a band room. The gunman allegedly fired numerous gunshots through the ceilings while the three girls were in his custody. When police arrived, the gunman peacefully surrendered As of late, I’ve been thinking about adding another list of incidents where authorities have held students hostage (for their own safety of course) during lock downs and when police hold the students as hostages during their training exercises. I’m guessing that the authorities have taken more students hostage than the criminals. Last edited on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 06:39 pm by SFDoc |
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UTOC-45-44 Regular Member 
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Toad wrote: Double Tap...sorry 2nd that. I would not have had ANY problem to defend myself and the class here in Utah. I am 100% positive that the AG would have been on mine or anybody elses side that would have drawn down on the "BG in disguise" and even after a 2tap. Especially after an unfortunate incident like Trolley Square. TJ |
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Doug Huffman Regular Member
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Nickel Mines, PA Amish school, hostages http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish_school_shooting |
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deepdiver Activist Member
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SFDoc wrote: deepdiver wrote:I'm courious if you have noted how many of the 134 occured in gun free zones.imperialism2024 wrote:Toad wrote:I don't remember a hostage situation in any of the recent attacks in US schools. The criminal came in and just started murdering with out delay. So what exactly do they think they are training for? They are just making it more obvious that they are not capable of dealing with a fast acting mass murder situation that is becoming the common method used. Law enforcement will never be able to stop one before it is over and the body count is already high. When will the public at large wake up and say 'hay you people don't have a chance of stopping a Cho type of situation so from now on we will take of our own all of your laws to the contrary are now void'. I well remember that shooting at the Amish school, Doug. It was one of the final non-personal events that led to my decision to carry. |
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Toad Regular Member
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UTOC-45-44 wrote: Toad wrote:Double Tap...sorry Actually, I double posted a comment but since you put it in that light I would have to agree with where you are comming from. Unfortunately one would be demonized by the media for applying the correct form of proper resistance and you would unjustly be confined to prison. They are very lucky that nobody was hurt or worse during this so called 'training'. It is a sad state of affairs we live in. |
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SFDoc Regular Member
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Doug Huffman wrote: Nickel Mines, PA Amish school, hostages http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish_school_shooting Got it - Forgot this started as a hostage situation - Thanks |
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