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OpenCarry.org - Discussion Forum > Stories From The States > Virginia > UVA-Wise suspends student over term paper and gun
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| OpenCarry.org - Discussion Forum > Stories From The States > Virginia > UVA-Wise suspends student over term paper and gun
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ChadW Regular Member
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http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/153661 College paper has bad ending A UVa-Wise student said he has been expelled, but a college official wouldn't confirm it. By Mike Allen 981-3236 A student who turned in an "alarming" creative writing assignment referencing suicide and the Virginia Tech shooter was involuntarily committed, then expelled from the University of Virginia's College at Wise after campus police found loaded guns in his car. The student, Steven Daniel Barber, 23, of Gate City, said his short story was meant to be taken as fiction exploring a topic relevant to current events. "I didn't intend to threaten anybody with it," he wrote Friday in an e-mail in which he said he had been expelled from the school. Though he violated a campus firearms policy by having the guns in his car, he owned them legally, he said. College Vice Chancellor Gary Juhan, who would not confirm the expulsion, said the school took seriously the concerns raised by the content of the student's paper. "One of the most impossible things to do is predict human behavior," he said. In Scott County, where Barber lives, Commonwealth's Attorney Marcus McClung petitioned Tuesday to suspend Barber's permit to carry a concealed weapon. Judge Tammy McElyea approved the suspension Wednesday, citing that Barber had been involuntarily committed. McClung said Friday that based on Barber's story and the report from campus police, the petition appeared justified. "We just thought it was the safe and prudent thing to do," he said. McClung also said that Barber can appeal the suspension. Barber said he will appeal his expulsion from the college to the chancellor's office on Monday. The vice chancellor said the college had procedures in place to handle similar situations long before the shootings at Virginia Tech last April. "We're not rookies at this," he said. The matter began in a creative writing class taught by assistant professor Christopher Scalia, Barber said. Barber turned in copies of the story Feb. 28 to Scalia and the other students. Barber summarized his story as being about "a crazy drug addict who ponders killing a professor, decides not to, then considers suicide ... the character doesn't actually do anything other than think." The story is written in first person. At one point the narrator describes how news of Sueng-Hui Cho's rampage at Virginia Tech causes him to sleep with a gun under his pillow. The professor who the narrator briefly contemplates killing is named "Mr. Christopher." According to a report by campus police Sgt. Randy Wyatt, the story alarmed Scalia and the students. "In the writing, he mentioned suicide, harming others, possessing a gun on campus, and other points that were alarming," Wyatt wrote. College administrators contacted campus police about the professor's concerns, according to court documents. Scalia declined to comment Friday. The day after the Barber turned in the paper, Wyatt confronted him. Wyatt asked Barber about suicidal statements he made in the assignment. The student replied "he was sorry if he had caused any problems, but that it was just fiction and none of it was true." Barber consented to a search of his person, his book bag and his dorm room, but at first balked at a search of his Chevrolet Cavalier. When Wyatt said he would get a search warrant, Barber relented and said he had three guns in the car. Police found a loaded .45-caliber automatic pistol, a loaded .22-caliber rifle and an empty 9 mm pistol. Wyatt took Barber to a mental health clinic in Big Stone Gap, where he was involuntarily committed for three days, according to the document. The college barred him from the campus until an administrative hearing Thursday. Barber said that's when Juhan expelled him. Barber acknowledged that he broke school policy by having the guns, but asserted that he had a right to have them under state law. Rumors circulated around campus all week, he said. "Some people are saying I had a hit list, or that I was gonna 'blow up the school,' " Barber wrote. "In truth, I had a 3.9 GPA last semester. I am an Iraq war vet with a good conduct medal. I legally had my guns in the car." The administration at UVa-Wise did not make any public announcements about Barber. Juhan said college administrators felt they had handled the situation quickly and judiciously, and that the student had violated no state laws. |
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hsmith Regular Member 
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Under what grounds was he committed? Because he wrote fiction that he was asked to write? Because he had a firearm?  guns are scary and only crazy people have guns?There was no reason to commit him.  And the car search was illegal, he did nothing to ellicit the search and seizure. Last edited on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 01:00 pm by hsmith |
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LEO 229 Regular Member 
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This reminds me of the school that suspended a 2nd or 3rd grade kid for just drawing a picture of a gun. Some schools are going overboard. I would have told them to go get the search warrant.... they had no grounds to successfully obtain one. Writing a fictional story in a creative writing class is hardly any proof. |
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sitedzn Regular Member 
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LEO 229 wrote: This reminds me of the school that suspended a 2nd or 3rd grade kid for just drawing a picture of a gun. I'm just glad my 5-yr old can't draw very good yet. He's brought home a pic of us at the range that he drew. If it wasn't on the wall at work, I'd scan it and post it. I thought it was awesome. Just glad his kindergarten teacher couldn't figure out what it was.  |
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hsmith Regular Member
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LEO 229 wrote: This reminds me of the school that suspended a 2nd or 3rd grade kid for just drawing a picture of a gun. "Judge, we need to get a warrant to search this mans car" "What is the reason?" "He was in a fictional writing class and wrote a story about suicide!!1" "OMG HERE YOU GO" Although, lets look at how they stripped his CHP from him. Committed him for writing a story for class then used the committal against him. The committal was probably the same reason they searched his vehicle. We are surrounded by idiots. I can see the reason why they took this seriously, but at some point, common sense needs to be added to the equation. |
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LEO 229 Regular Member
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I would still have taken my chances that the warrant would not be obtained successfully. As I said... some schools are going overboard..... |
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Lysander Regular Member
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hsmith wrote: Under what grounds was he committed? Just as importantly *HOW* did they involuntarily commit him? The timeline is doable, but exceedingly tight. He turns the paper in on 2/38 (a Thursday). Postulating that the grader read the paper that night, or the next day, that puts us at 2/29 (Friday). If he was arrested or otherwise detained the same day (2/29) the arresting/detaining officers believed he needed to be committted, that would get the IC process started. The latest the IC hearing could be (taking 2/29 as the "start date" of the IC process) would be 3/3 (Monday) He'd have to fail the three IC questions (in a psych report - danger to self, danger to others, unable to independently care for self) He'd have an attorney (independently retained or court-appointed) present. IC hearings are technically General Distrct Court proceedings, but good luck finding the records (they are not publicly available). The article then states that the Commonwealth Attorney filed a petition with the Court (apparently NOT the same Court) "Tuesday" (3/4?) to suspend the carry permit, which was granted (same day?). I take that back. The timeline for the committment and hearing is doable, but I can't see how the CA would find out about a hearing the day before, file a (un-Served/un-Noticed) Petition with the Court to have it heard the same day (even on an emergency basis) - where it's not the same Court that did the IC hearing. There's still the 10 day appeal time for the original committment order, not counting a motion to rehear. (subquestion - how was the petition done? Complaint? Motion?) Maybe if the permit-suspending Court and the IC hearing Court were the same - maybe. All I can say is WTHF? Nothing in the above message constitutes Legal Advice. Material is provided for informational/entertainment or other purposes and is not intended to constitute or be relied upon as Legal Advice, nor is it tailored to any specific factual situation. This is not an offer to form an attorney-client relationship. This is not advertising, nor intended to be such. While I am an attorney, I am NOT YOUR attorney. (edit: forgot date of permit suspension) Last edited on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 01:38 pm by Lysander |
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Tess Founder's Club Member 
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hsmith wrote: Under what grounds was he committed? Over-reaction. Cho wrote a story, too. Therefore, this guy must be just like Cho. Maybe some university faculty and administration need to understand logic is more than just if A and B then C. |
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Neplusultra Regular Member 
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LEO 229 wrote: I would have told them to go get the search warrant.... they had no grounds to successfully obtain one. Writing a fictional story in a creative writing class is hardly any proof. I'm not sure it isn't. What level of evidence do you need to get a warrant? The student's use of a character as an object of murder who's a professor and uses the very name of his professor is disconcerting to say the least. Whether it rises to the level of lawful action/search warrents I don't know. If he wanted to push the envelope I'd say he did. But you're right, he should not have consented. What was their to gain? If he was storing weapons in his vehicle when he had to know that was against school policy then I hope he was also prepared to legally defend his actions. Either way, it sounds like a law suit to me. They surely did take actions without evidence. Perhaps he was deemed to be a danger and that was just not reported because of privacy laws. Last edited on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 04:28 pm by Neplusultra |
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LEO 229 Regular Member
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We do not know the details of what he said in person on his feelings or intentions. They committed him and that is not as easy as you think. I have seen this first hand. But to write a story..... this is not enough grounds to push for searches. They really need to ask him more and identify this was for real. Maybe they did. If I wrote a fictional story about killing a member of congress and used realistic details.... does this mean I fully intend to do it? Remembering that it IS a story and many people have written then never intending to ever do it. |
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Mike Super Moderator
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FOLKS: The man was TDOed at a facility, then adjudicated as NOT mentally ill or a danger - he was never committed in the normal use of the word to in patient or outpatient treatment. Despite being CLEARED, UVA expelled him. This is likley not over for UVA. |
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Neplusultra Regular Member
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Mike wrote: FOLKS: The man was TDOed at a facility, then adjudicated as NOT mentally ill or a danger - he was never committed in the normal use of the word to in patient or outpatient treatment. Despite being CLEARED, UVA expelled him. I hope it isn't over, does anyone know who he is or if he knows his rights? |
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SFDoc Regular Member 
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With all of the 100s, if not thousands, of reports of students taking creative writing and getting into some type of legal trouble or kicked out of school. I’m starting to wonder if maybe taking a creative writing class causes some type of brain damage or mental illness. Maybe schools should think about banning creative writing classes to prevent these minds full of mush from going off the deep end. But then again, I just barley made it through high school and we didn’t have creative writing courses, so what do I know. |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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Hello all. I'm Steve Barber--the student in question. To clarify, I wasn't IC'd, I was TDO'd--and released by the judge at my first hearing that Monday morning. And it's fascinating that the Vice Chancellor knew my permit had been revoked before campus police. And I STILL haven't been notified (other than reading about it in the paper). What are the odds that if I did a FOIA request for a list of incoming calls to the Commonwealth Attorney I would find his number on it? I pissed off a lot of school administrators earlier in the year by starting an independent campus newspaper that ran some embarassing stories about how, for example, the campus doesn't have an American flag flying anywhere. *shrug* Maybe they got wind about the story my paper was working on about professors sleeping with students? Or how the Vice Chancellor that expelled me, Dr. Juhan illegally employed "prior restraint" in my first issue. Also of note, the professor that was concerned about my paper is Supreme Court Justice Scalia's son. |
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LEO 229 Regular Member
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Steve, Please tell us want happened from start to end.... |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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I had 3 guns in my car (Springfield XD45 and North American Arms .22 derringer loaded and concealed and a Highpoint 9mm Compact unloaded and locked in my trunk). I have had a permit for about two years now. On Thursday I turned in an assignment for a Creative Writing class with Supreme Court Justice Scalia's son. It was a first draft turned in to the professor and also the other students for review/critiques/editing. Apparently, the professor and some students were concerned because the main character was insane, a drug addict, alcoholic, considers homocide, then decides on suicide--anyway, the character doesn't actually do anything except think about these things. The character was also a student who has writer's block in some unspecified english class. Friday morning, the campus police pulled me aside as I was coming out of a class. He asked if I had any weapons on my person and if I would consent to a search. I told him that would be fine and that I had a pocketknife. He asked if I had turned in the paper and I told him that I had and asked if that was the reason for pulling me aside, etc. He asked for consent to search my dorm room (which he doesn't need because there's an implied consent in the housing agreement) but I gave him permission anyway. They didn't find anything of interest in my room. They asked if I had anything in my car, and I told them that I had 3 firearms and I showed them my permit for them. They asked if I knew that was against school policy, and I told them that yes, I did know that and I also can make a pretty good case that the school policy is illegal. So they search my car, seize my guns, and then I'm interviewed by the school counselor. "Are you depressed?" "No." "Stressed?" "No." You get the idea. As part of their procedure I guess, I had to go to the local crisis counselor for a professional opinion. We went through the same questions and I had the same answers: I'm not homocidal or suicidal and I don't hear voices, I'm not depressed, anxious, paranoid, etc. At one point I asked if I could go to the bathroom. I told her I had a pocketknife and that she could hold onto it as a sign of good faith. She said that wouldn't be necessary. There's hours of waiting in the lobby, then the fax comes in with my interim suspension from school pending a hearing. Then the counselor comes out with the TDO! So they make arrangements to drive me to the nearest Pysch ward. So I do the psych ward stuff for 3 days, with all of the reigndeer games: group therapy, etc. I wasn't prescribed any medicine except for Ambien which was optional. I opted out. On Monday morning I had my hearing with the judge. They determined that I don't have a mental illness, I'm not a threat to myself or others, and that an IC wouldn't be necessary. I was dismissed. My school hearing was last Thursday. Normally, in accordance with the student handbook, a hearing is composed of a jury of students who are elected to do that job. And expulsion requires a unanimus vote of the jury whereas other punishments just require a majority vote. The handbook has exceptions where the hearing is held directly with the Vice-Chancellor such as at the very beginning or very end of the semster. That was midterm week, and on the Friday I got TDO'd was when they scheduled the hearing for that Thursday--I think it's plenty of time to arrange for student jurors to attend. But I digress. So I had my hearing with the Vice-Chancellor with the Dean of Students as a witness. The "charges" at the hearing were: Unauthorized possession and storage of a firearm, conduct which threatens or endangers the health and safety of the Uva-Wise campus community, and conduct that is detrimental to the College and conduct that reflects negatively on the college community. I'm still not sure if the last two were from the guns in my car or the short story. There were approximatly 8 people outside of the hearing room with handmade shirts with messages protesting IN FAVOR of me. I pointed out that that's not really indicative that the student body thinks I'm a serial killer or something. I mentioned that I was awarded a good conduct medal when I was in the Navy, that I was getting training on full auto weapons in bookcamp while the students that complained were 14 year old teenyboppers watching Dawson Creek reruns. I told them that after 3 full days of intense scrutiny, I was determined to not be crazy or a threat. I told him that I had a 3.9 GPA, that I was on the Dean's List, that I'm a hard-charger: double marjoring in political science and administration of justice. I told him I have a great relationship with my professors, one of them is also my church minister. I mentioned how many friends I had, how I have voluntarily went to speak with the school counselor whenever I felt stressed last semster, etc. And he told me that I didn't understand. That his phone had been ringing off the hook with concerned parents, etc. He called me the next day to tell me I was expelled. And that's it. My appeal is with the Chancellor on Monday morning. |
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hsmith Regular Member
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pretty @#$%ty story, but a reminder to all - trust no one, never consent to search (but never resist), and DEMAND a lawyer ASAP. Sadly, there would have been no grounds to search the car if you kept your mouth shut. Crappy situation all around. Best of luck and thanks for your service. |
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Neplusultra Regular Member
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capablanca911 wrote: My appeal is with the Chancellor on Monday morning. You sound pretty damn sane to me, not that I'm a Doctor. I'd say bring a lawyer to the appeal and let them know you're not going to allow them to sink your academic career without a fight. They did overreact. It might be in order for you to appologize for naming the professor character "Mr. Christopher" though. The fact that you chose that name does not excuse what they did or what they are trying to continue to do but I can see how it might have caused them concern at first. But once they found out you're not nuts they needed to back down and restore your CHP. I was intending to open carry on tech campus, I live nearby, the next time I had business there. But after seeing the hysteria that happened at Ferrum College a few weeks ago (man seen with a gun) I decided that I will still OC but I'm going to notify the tech police first just so they won't call half the cops in SW Virginia to campus. It's my right to OC but it's still a good thing to be aware of how some people may react to seeing a gun on campus or to reading a "Cho" like story, especially one with a character who has the same name as a real person, albeit one is last name and the other first. I'd appologize for any misunderstanding you may have caused but if they didn't restore your place I'd sue. You're not crazy and they know it. They just don't like your guns. And it is illegal for the state to deny you your rights to keep a weapon, especially if it's in your car. |
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LEO 229 Regular Member
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You know how it is... Knee jerk reaction!! With all that has happened at so many schools it is no longer permissible to combine anything with school and death. Students freak out and the parents demand something be done!! The weapons violation.. well.... I guess they got you there if it is a school policy. But how in the world did they get a detention order for you without a certified head doctor to speak with you first? They had some connections! I have to wait for hours for the head docs to commit people when I take them in. They are going to make an example out of you. |
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Nelson_Muntz Activist Member 
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capablanca911 wrote: And he told me that I didn't understand. That his phone had been ringing off the hook with concerned parents, etc. He called me the next day to tell me I was expelled. Sorry for what happened to you Mr. Barber, but they explained it all here: You don't understand. It's about the $$.  |
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Neplusultra Regular Member
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LEO 229 wrote: They are going to make an example out of you. You're right, they will try to do so. Plus they now have to cover and excuse the actions they took which violated his rights! I would suggest he make an example out of them instead. The "only" leg they have to stand on is his use of the name "Mr. Christopher". Beyond the apprehension that may have wrongfully and incorrectly and temporarily raised, they have no argument. Unless writing stories like his is illegal.....which it's NOT! Edit: removed unfounded accusation against school admins. Last edited on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 08:13 pm by Neplusultra |
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Tomahawk Regular Member 
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Well, they'll just keep coming back to the guns in your car, and how it's against policy. That's your weak spot here. |
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Neplusultra Regular Member
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Does anyone know who the Tech grad student was that got expelled or threatened with expulsion because he was caught CCing on campus? The university eventually allowed him to stay on campus and he agreed to no longer carry. This was before the Tech shooting though. He might have some good advice. |
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Neplusultra Regular Member
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Tomahawk wrote: Well, they'll just keep coming back to the guns in your car, and how it's against policy. That's your weak spot here. Not really IMO, there is nothing in the law that says he can't, everything that says he can. They have a policy against it but they are a state agency and he is not an employee. It's a grey area, one that I think the Va AG supports the school (IIRC) but not necessarily one that couldn't be won in court. (Edit: I believe I was wrong above, see what CPerdue says about AG opinions below) There are also other isssues in his favor. Ie, he doesn't live on campus so the school in effect denies him the right to carry most of the day and in places they have no jursidiction, and he had the guns in his vehicle not on his person. Last edited on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 12:18 am by Neplusultra |
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Neplusultra Regular Member
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Steve, have they given you your guns back yet? |
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Mike Super Moderator
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capablanca911 wrote: My appeal is with the Chancellor on Monday morning. Bring with a you a copy of this AG opinion, http://www.vcdl.org/static/letters.html, and highlight the following sentence: "In light of the General Assembly’s specific statements regarding the limits of carrying concealed handguns and the grant of authority to colleges and universities to regulate the conduct of students and employees, it is my opinion that neither a board of visitors nor a president of a public college or university may infer authority from its enabling legislation to adopt a universal prohibition of carrying concealed handguns by holders with valid permits." If a CHP holder cannot carry and secure guns even in his vehicle, then the university policy amounts to the "universal prohibition" that the Attorney General has said cannot stand. |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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I didn't even realize that Christopher was my professor's first name! I had heard it, but when I was doing the character in my head I was thinking of Warren Christopher, Bill Clinton's first secretary of state! I needed the professor to be a prick and that's what came to mind, lol! I actually thought Professor Scalia was a stand up guy. |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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The Campus Police are going to turn them over to my dad next Friday. The Campus Police have been really good to me over this, it's the Vice Chancellor and the crisis counselor that issued the TDO that I have a grievance with. My fellow students, my professor, and the cops haven't done anything legally or morally negligent, IMO. I disagree with them, but they aren't acting maliciously. |
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CPerdue Regular Member
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Does anyone know who the Tech grad student was that got expelled or threatened with expulsion because he was caught CCing on campus? Um, that would be me. I made a 'Dillon Rule' argument based on The Code of Virginia, ss 23-114 which created the VT Board of Visitors (and thus the school itself) as a corporation under the control of the General Assembly (obviously it will be a different subsection for another school). Being such, the BOV has only the powers deligated to it by the General Assembly. For example, the power to construct roads on campus. Firearms are not mentioned in those powers. ss 23-122 says the BOV can make any rules they want, "not contrary to law". ss 18.2-308 says just exactly what that law is regarding concealed weapons, with 308.1 dealing expressly with school property and paragraph B(i) listing "elementary, middle, or high school[s]," meaning that colleges are expressly not included in the prohibited places list. AG opinion 02-074 backs up my interpretation of how the statutes are construed. This opinion dealt with the Dept. of Conservation and Recreation, not exactly the same thing as a state corporation (or locality where preemption would have covered it). AG opinion 03-083 states that the school may not have a rule of expelling all students who's actions [with firearms] are in conformity with the law. This applied to K-12 schools, so doubly so for adults at college. Since then we have AG opinion 05-078 (I precipitated this I believe). That opinion has been criticized by legal professionals (I'm an engineer, NAL) saying, "[the BOV] may regulate the conduct of students and employees to prohibit them from carrying concealed on campus." My case caused a stink way up into Richmond. I was pretty clearly in the right legaly, in a grey zone school policy wise (remember, school policy and internal judicial matters do not follow the same rules as a 'real' court). I've kicked myself many times for not seeing this through to a legal decision but my state representative asked me to let it lie and give him a chance to fix it in the legislature. We all know how well that has gone. Bottom line, they could have tried to expell me and I probably could have sued to be reinstated - in the end they shredded the paperwork and I agreed to be disarmed. I have OCed several times on campus after I graduated. Never miss the chance. This has gotten too long - PM me if you want more details. I think half of the VCDL members read this board but contact them through vcdl.org anyway. Also look up SCCC (Students for Concealed Carry on Campus) on facebook. I know the VT coordinator, Ken Stanton, kstanton@vt.edu - give him a shout. Last and most important, GET A REAL LAWYER NOW!!!!! The state bar association has a referral service, also google for civil rights and criminal law practitionersb in your area. This will probably be very expensive to fight, but I wish I had the standing to do it again (post-massacre angst changes your perspective a bit). I'll put up some cash. Shoot, if you can make this a civil rights case the feds will cover your legal fees. If the Heller case goes the correct way it may be a slam dunk anyway. Keep us informed please, C. |
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Lysander Regular Member
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capablanca911 wrote: Hello all. I'm Steve Barber--the student in question.They didn't notify you that the CA was going to petition to suspend or revoke your permit? (by they, I mean the CA's office or anyone from the Court)? Byt yes, the one big piece of free advice I'll give: I agree, get a lawyer. Sit down with one, and if you're comfortable, sign the retainer. There's a time clock runningso do it Asap. Just make sure you're comfortable with who you hire. |
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Neplusultra Regular Member
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CPerdue wrote:I'll put up some cash. Shoot, if you can make this a civil rights case the feds will cover your legal fees. If you get yourself a good lawyer I'll put up $100, more if you need it. There are sources for 2A lawyers around too. Perhaps the NRA or VCDL will have information. |
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VApatriot Regular Member 
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1. Do I understand correctly that the firearms were seized immediately after being discovered? I'm no lawyer, but that doesn't seem legal. Since no local, state or federal laws were broken what legal authority did they have to seize private property? 2. Is there an exact time for the hearing on Monday? I think it would be a great use of my day off from work if I could be there to help show some support, but I'm not sure that I could make it all the way down there in time. Good luck, and give 'em hell. Last edited on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 11:34 pm by VApatriot |
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Neplusultra Regular Member
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VApatriot wrote: Is there an exact time for the hearing on Monday? I think it would be a great use of my day off from work if I could be there to help show some support, but I'm not sure that I could make it all the way down there in time. Yea, I'd like to be there. I'll have to trim my beard so I look presentable :^). It'd be a great opportunity to OC on campus too. |
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peter nap Regular Member 
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Well, at last we have a case that I can get behind (other than Chet's). I'll be happy to donate 100.00. Anyone want to work out the details? |
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Neplusultra Regular Member
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capablanca911 wrote: I didn't even realize that Christopher was my professor's first name! I had heard it, but when I was doing the character in my head I was thinking of Warren Christopher, Bill Clinton's first secretary of state! I needed the professor to be a prick and that's what came to mind, lol! Ha! Now that is definately in your favor. I hope you're going to stand up and fight this. BTW, it doesn't surprise me that Scalia is a stand up guy. His dad sure appears to be :^). As soon as I read the prof's name I thought, "I wonder if he's...." |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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Lots of great information. Thanks. I'm going to have to start repaying a large student loan if the expulsion is upheld at the appeal. I'm fighting this one, folks. Even if I have to re-enlist to pay for it. |
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Neplusultra Regular Member
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capablanca911 wrote: Lots of great information. Thanks. Hey, get a good lawyer, especially one with a passion for the 2cd. I and I'm sure a lot of people on this forum will help with the expense. The word is spreading. Already I know this is on two forums. Probably more. If anyone is involved in other forums like AR15.com or what not please spread the story and the truth about what happened and that he didn't know the prof's first name was Christopher. Links to this thread might be good. |
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DrMark Lone Star Veteran 
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Neplusultra wrote: If anyone is involved in other forums like AR15.com or what not please spread the story and the truth about what happened and that he didn't know the prof's first name was Christopher. Links to this thread might be good. Done. As far as getting the story correct, I used Mr. Barber's own words. What could be better? http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=24&t=301223 (Virginia Hometown Forum - generally good folks) http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=684045 (General Discussion Forum - more diverse audience, but much more exposure) |
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skidmark Activist Member 
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I'm good for a cash donation to the expulsion defense fund. PM me when you need it. A suggestion re: your hearing Monday. Hand them a written request for a continuance to allow you to retain legal counsel. Make them hand-sign your copy of the written request. The time-frame is extremely short for you to even begin to prepare for this on your own, let alone getting your lawyer up to speed. Since you are under an interim expulsion order anyway, they should not object to a continuance. If they do, it is just more fodder for an eventual lawsuit. stay safe. skidmark |
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Neplusultra Regular Member
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skidmark wrote: I'm good for a cash donation to the expulsion defense fund. PM me when you need it. Very good advice!!! You are in the right, you will win with the right console. There are many behind you, let them know that and know that yourself. John |
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mpg9999 Regular Member
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Neplusultra wrote: There are many behind you, let them know that and know that yourself. +1. Let us know if you need anything. |
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wchiang Regular Member 
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If you need, I know a very good pro-2A attorney with very good experience. His firm has some of the top attorneys listed by the Washingtonian and represented the DC sniper case. Give me a shout if you need. Good luck and keep up updated! We're all supporting you and on your side! |
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cato Regular Member 
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Take an audio or video recorder into your hearing. Make it known you're recording. Lawyer up fast. Last edited on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 04:33 am by cato |
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packingdressagerider Regular Member 
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LEO 229 wrote: This reminds me of the school that suspended a 2nd or 3rd grade kid for just drawing a picture of a gun. That's just nuts. I'm thinking back to when I was in creative writing at a community college in Va. I wrote both a novel, and a short story that had all kinds of stuff about firearms. Jeeze, things have really changed since I did creative writing. I hope now that because I write a lot of stuff with characters who do have firearms that I won't be singled out in such a manner. I realize that times are different, but I think this is so extreme. I would consider this harassment by college adminstration. |
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unrequited Regular Member 
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capablanca911 wrote:I didn't even realize that Christopher was my professor's first name! I had heard it, but when I was doing the character in my head I was thinking of Warren Christopher, Bill Clinton's first secretary of state! I needed the professor to be a prick and that's what came to mind, lol! No, no! Don't say that, you're going to get the Secret Service on you now. You should have said William Christopher who's just an actor. Good luck with the fight, but it's going to be a hard one concerning the guns in the car, and their asinine student policy. You could always try to remind them of the last shooting at a higher learning institution in Virginia before VTech... Appalachian School of Law shooting where not one but two separate students had firearms in their vehicles in defiance of student policy and used them to successfully detain and disarm the shooter. Good luck regardless and thank you for coming onto this site to post and give your story, regardless, please stick around. |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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Haha! But if I lie and say it was William Christopher (Father Mulcahy from MASH), then they'll put me back in the funny farm because who could ever think about hurting Padre? LOL! I mentioned the Grundy incident and how no one remembers it because there was such a low body count thanks to those two students. I really appreciate all of the support, guys. Keep me in your prayers too! |
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paramedic70002 Regular Member 
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So are campus police officers allowed/required to enforce policy? Yet another gray area... in general the police do not enforce policy of a private establishment other than removing you as a trespasser if the proprietor indicated you are not welcome as a result of not follwoing policy. Private security, contracted to the establishment, can and does enforce policy. So where does that leave campus police? When your dad picks up the weapons, you should have him turn around and hand them to you, then load up and conceal while still in the police station... I think you have the makings of a major lawsuit that could end up invalidating this whole NO GUNS ON CAMPUS thing. In a way, too bad they didn't find some bogus charge to hit you with so you could get it zapped in criminal court. |
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Toad Regular Member 
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More proof that Zero Tolerance = Zero Thought. |
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cato Regular Member
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I'm with you 98.6% but someone has to say it...that was a dumb topic for a paper. |
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LRS76251 Regular Member
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From what I've read of the account on here, the worst that should have happened to him should have been to get expelled for violating school policy since he was a student. The TDO, etc was wayyyyy out of line. He had a CCW, so no state law was broken by having the guns in his car. Since the VT shootings, it probably wasn't the best of ideas to write the story that he did but it still shouldn't have received the attention it did. If it had been at any other time, there probably wouldn't have been all the attention given to this incident. Honestly, it shouldn't have mattered. No TDO should have been ordered in the case. It is a case of crappy investigative techniques used by campus police and campus administrators trying to make an example of a student by abusing its statutory authority. Although they have state certifications, most campus police couldn't catch a cold it if caught them first. Most of them are pretty incompetent officers. They should leave investigations to REAL professionals and go back to playing barney fife on campus. I'm a cop and I know they are idiots because I've seen how they conduct themselves first hand. When we go on campuses across the country to do security details for political candidates, most of us end up walking away shaking our heads in disbelief. I agree that the school administrators in this case are the ones who need counselling and not the student. Some people have absolutely NO common sense whatsoever these days. They've been brainwashed beyond belief when it comes to firearms possession. I do agree that prudence is necessary when you are going to own and carry firearms. This case just goes overboard. Sounds like the campus administrators have an agenda, albeit, he did make himself a good, open target for them. Honestly, I think there was a lack of good judgement on both sides in this case. The OP voluntarily gave consent to search his car. There was no PC because if officers ever have to ask you for consent, that means they don't have anything to base a search on. If they have PC they wouldn't ask, they'd just search your property. Otherwise, they need a warrant and warrants aren't easy to get in cases like this...and it takes time to secure them legally. I'm sorry to hear this happened to the OP. I wish him the best of luck with fighting the case and hope he's successful with it. Its obvious to me that the school abused its authority here and that it needs to be fixed. Perhaps it may mean legislating criminal charges and mandatory jail time for college administrators that abuse their statutory authority. I think the OP may have a good civil rights case at the Fed level here. Get a good attorney and go kick their ass. |
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Mike Super Moderator
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LRS76251 wrote: He had a CCW, so no state law was broken by having the guns in his car. No concealed handgun permit is required to store guns in vehicle, including unlocked compartments. Pruitt v. Commonwealth, (Va. 2007). |
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LRS76251 Regular Member
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I didn't mean to imply that a CCW was required to store firearms in a vehicle in VA because it definitely is not. I probably should have rephrased the sentence to minimize any confusion in the matter. However, if I understand how the law is being applied in VA on campuses correctly, it is my understanding that there are no general prohibitions for CCW holders on college campuses as far as the state code unless you are a member of the university community (faculty, student, staff). Violating school policy will just get you either fired or expelled if you are faculty, staff, or a student of the school. Going onto a campus without a CCW while carrying a firearm seems to be a gray area since the AG opinion doesn't apply to non-CCW holders, but I don't know. Some officers may want to make you a test case and even though it may eventually get thrown out in court down the road, you'd still have to endure all the legal expenses (attorney fees, etc), arrests and booking, plus having the incident entered into NCIC, etc, etc. The laws for carrying firearms on campuses for those other than active LE and CCW holders appears to be a little murky to me. It needs to be fixed but unfortunately, it doesn't appear that its going to happen this year. |
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Citizen Founder's Club Member
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Toad wrote: More proof that Zero Tolerance = Zero Thought. Now that I think about it, the two would almost always go hand-in-hand, wouldn't they? |
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ama-gi Regular Member 
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Mike wrote: capablanca911 wrote:My appeal is with the Chancellor on Monday morning. If you get expelled, you could be a test case to test this in the courts and some good could come out of this after all. |
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ama-gi Regular Member
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CPerdue wrote: Does anyone know who the Tech grad student was that got expelled or threatened with expulsion because he was caught CCing on campus? Did you pursue it in court on a Dillon Rule argument? If not, why not and are you planning to in the future? |
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Mike Super Moderator
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LRS76251 wrote: However, if I understand how the law is being applied in VA on campuses correctly, it is my understanding that there are no general prohibitions for CCW holders on college campuses as far as the state code unless you are a member of the university community (faculty, student, staff). No - there are no state code gun possession bans directed at colleges in the Code of Virginia at all. |
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unrequited Regular Member
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Mike wrote:LRS76251 wrote:However, if I understand how the law is being applied in VA on campuses correctly, it is my understanding that there are no general prohibitions for CCW holders on college campuses as far as the state code unless you are a member of the university community (faculty, student, staff). What about that Virginia Commonwealth University thing? http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+reg+8VAC90-10-50 |
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XD40coyote Regular Member 
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Boy times sure have changed in 14 years! I wrote all sorts of disturbing things and did all sorts of disturbing art when I was in college and the worst that happened to me was being detained in the dean of students office for a few hours, and an unofficial 2 week suspension while I got some mental health help. All because the guy who lived above me was keeping me from sleeping and I was really angry and said to a teacher that if I had a gun I would do such and such in the ceramics room. Yes I did have depression, seems a common problem among artists. This was an art college and the writing prof I had was AMAZING- he actually LIKED my weird stories and poems. One day a fellow student complained about my dog begging from her ( dogs allowed in class! good thing too- Baltimore legal open carry...), so this guy tells her that he prefers dogs to some students LMAO. Anyway, writing fiction should NEVER be grounds for such hysteria. What happened to the 1st amendment? So now they trample all over the 1st along with the 2nd. Well just for that I really need to write my Coyote and crazy pro gun stuff fiction. Imagine if you had drawn this and that was it, would they have reacted as stupidly, or more stupidly?  |
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bohdi Regular Member 
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Probably more stupidly. capablanca911 - thanks for coming on and sharing with us. You'll find as much support as we can give in whatever way people can here I think for your cause. All give some, some give all. I can't imagine what would have happened to me in 9th grade creative writing if I had written some of those things today. It's a fricking creative writing class! Give em both barrels, er, hell, er a good lawerly fight..... |
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Tomahawk Regular Member
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I knew some guys in high school who used to draw short comic strips during boring classes, and the running gag was that at the end of each story one of the characters' heads would explode very graphically for no reason. It was kind of like the "you killed Kenny" gag from South Park. It was hysterical, but I'm sure that if they did that today and got noticed they would get the third degree and the system would mercilessly try to ruin their lives and careers to cover its ass. Leviathan has no sense of humor. |
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hsmith Regular Member
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any chance we all can read the story? |
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Tomahawk Regular Member
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I don't think posting it on the internet is in his best interest at this point. He needs to talk to his lawyer before doing anything as unreversible as that. |
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Mike Super Moderator
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unrequited wrote: Mike wrote: That''s not in the Code of Virginia. |
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unrequited Regular Member
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Mike wrote:unrequited wrote:Mike wrote: I was just taking that from Bob's VA laws handout... so that's not a prohibited place of carry? |
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LRS76251 Regular Member
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Virginia Administrative Code (regulations) pertain to how agencies are allowed to conduct their business. The rules on firearms prohibitions do NOT apply to people who are not part of a university community. State law (Code of Virginia, 1950) says that public colleges and universities can only make rules that apply to their students, faculty, and staff....NOT the public at large. If you don't fall into one of those categories, there isn't anything the university/college can do to you regardless if it wants to or not. Since possessing firearms is legal according to State law, the school doesn't even have the authority to even write a trespass summons. Schools think they have more power than they really do. Regulations do NOT supercede law. This is why you can be either fired or expelled if you are part of the university community for violating their policy. Nonstudents aren't affected. |
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aslalum2003 Regular Member
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unrequited wrote: capablanca911 wrote: BTW--I was at student at ASL and ON CAMPUS when the shooting happened. There was NOT a policy about carrying firearms at that time, so the students who had firearms on campus were not acting in defiance of the school's policy. Also, the two students who detained Peter O did NOT use firearms. |
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aslalum2003 Regular Member
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unrequited wrote: capablanca911 wrote: |
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aslalum2003 Regular Member
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BTW--I was a student at ASL and ON CAMPUS when the shooting occurred. There was NOT a firearms policy at the time, so the two students did NOT act in defiance of the firearms policy. Also, the two students who detained Peter O did NOT use firearms to get him to surrender. So, the comment about the low body count being due to firearms on campus is inaccurate. |
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Doug Huffman Regular Member 
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aslalum2003 wrote: BTW--I was a student at ASL and ON CAMPUS when the shooting occurred. There was NOT a firearms policy at the time, so the two students did NOT act in defiance of the firearms policy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_School_of_Law_shooting#Students_subdued_the_shooter According to Besen, before Odighizuwa saw Bridges and Gross with their weapons, Odighizuwa set down his gun and raised his arms like he was mocking people.[14] Besen, a former marine and police officer in Wilmington, North Carolina, then charged, got into a scuffle with Odighizuwa, and knocked him to the ground. Bridges and Gross then arrived with their guns once Odighizuwa was tackled.[15] Additional witnesses at the scene stated they did not see Bridges or Gross with their guns at the time Besen started subduing Odighizuwa.[16] So, the comment about the low body count being due to firearms on campus is inaccurate. No more so than your null hypothesis. |
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Virginiaplanter Regular Member 
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"The primary goal of every university is to educate, not regulate, its students." George Mason University v. Floyd, __, Va. __ S.E.2d __,__ (2008). http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opnscvtx/1062603.txt "When the legislature delegates authority to an administrative agency to promulgate regulations, those regulations must neither exceed the scope of the authority delegated nor be inconsistent with it. See, e.g., Brown, 34 Va. App. at 276, 540 S.E.2d at 522. Furthermore, "delegations of legislative power are valid only if they establish specific policies and fix definite standards to guide the official, agency, or board in the exercise of the power. Delegations of legislative power which lack such policies and standards are unconstitutional and void." Ames v. Town of Painter, 239 Va. 343, 349, 389 S.E.2d 702, 705 (1990). For example, language in an enabling statute which provides merely "that the regulations be designed to protect and promote the safety and health of employees" is insufficient. Bell v. Dorey Elec. Co., 248 Va. 378, 381, 448 S.E.2d 622, 624 (1994). "[T]he General Assembly cannot delegate its legislative power accompanied only by such a broad statement of general policy. . . . [D]elegations of authority are adequately limited [only] where the terms or phrases employed have a well understood meaning and prescribe sufficient standards to guide the administrator." Id. at 381-82, 448 S.E.2d at 624 (citations omitted)." Avalon Assisted Living Facilities, Inc. v. Zager, 39 Va. App. 484, 574 S.E.2d 298 (2002). http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opncavtx/0778024.txt |
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Mike Super Moderator
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unrequited wrote: Mike wrote: Depends if you believe the AG opinion saying such bans are not generally applicable to the public, and, not even a total ban can stand against students. |
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Repeater Regular Member 
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Virginiaplanter wrote: "The primary goal of every university is to educate, not regulate, its students."This is a powerful entry in this thread. Goes to the heart of Separation of Powers doctrine. The only thing I don't like are the text cites. PDF versions are preferable: George Mason University v. Floyd Avalon Assisted Living, etc v Zofia A Zager, etc |
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stan Luney Regular Member 
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Students subdued the shooter Taken from wikopedia...When Peter Odighizuwa exited the building where the shooting took place, he was approached by two students with personal firearms[6] and one unarmed student. [7] There are two versions of the events that transpired at that moment, one by Tracy Bridges and one by Ted Besen. According to Bridges, at the first sound of gunfire, he and fellow student Mikael Gross, unbeknownst to each other, ran to their vehicles to fetch their personal owned firearms.[8] Gross, a police officer with the Grifton Police Department in his home state of North Carolina, retrieved a 9 mm pistol and body armor.[9] Bridges, a county sheriff's deputy from Asheville, N.C.,[10] pulled his .357 Magnum pistol from beneath the driver's seat of his Chevrolet Tahoe. As Bridges later told the Richmond Times Dispatch, he was prepared to shoot to kill.[11] Bridges and Gross approached Odighizuwa from different angles, with Bridges yelling at Odighizuwa to drop his gun.[12] Odighizuwa then dropped his firearm and was subdued by several other unarmed students, including Ted Besen and Todd Ross.[13] According to Besen, before Odighizuwa saw Bridges and Gross with their weapons, Odighizuwa set down his gun and raised his arms like he was mocking people.[14] Besen, a former marine and police officer in Wilmington, North Carolina, then charged, got into a scuffle with Odighizuwa, and knocked him to the ground. Bridges and Gross then arrived with their guns once Odighizuwa was tackled.[15] Additional witnesses at the scene stated they did not see Bridges or Gross with their guns at the time Besen started subduing Odighizuwa.[16] Once Odighizuwa was securely held down, Gross went back to his vehicle and retrieved handcuffs to detain Odighizuwa until police could arrive. Police reports later noted that two empty eight round magazines designed for Odighizuwa’s handgun were recovered. Most sources (including those quoting Virginia State Police spokesman Mike Stater) state that when Odighizuwa dropped the gun the magazine was empty,[17] although an initial report suggested the gun still held three rounds of ammunition.[1..........This is my home town and one of the victims was a realitive |
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Thundar Regular Member 
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LEO 229 wrote: They are going to make an example out of you. I think that we should make an example out of UVA-Wise! This sort of crap just makes my blood boil. Yes, be very creative in your creative writing class, but only in a politically correct manner. Mention firearms and you will be nailed to a cross. We know we can get away with it. Look how we abused the system to persecute capablanca911. Open Carry one and all. Rifles, pistols shotguns and semi-automatic handguns with high capacity magazines. Nothing illegal, just a reminder to the intolerant petty tyrants that run this public university that they are public servants, not dictators. Isn't this sort of abuse what VCDL's use of the NATO Doctrine is all about? I think some questions to the campus police about an open carry of firearms event on and around their campus would get some attention. Their number (276)382-0190. Last edited on Tue Mar 11th, 2008 03:52 am by Thundar |
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Thundar Regular Member
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Does UVA Wise have a student policy about handguns? Here is what their student handbook says: WEAPONS STORAGE POLICY Purpose: This policy provides rules and regulations concerning the possession and storage of firearms and archery equipment on the property of The University of Virginia‘s College at Wise. WEAPONS MUST BE CHECKED IN TO THE UVA-WISE CAMPUS POLICE IMMEDIATELY UPON ARRIVAL TO COLLEGE PROPERTY BY CALLING (276) 328-2677. Storage and Related Procedures: Rifles, shotguns, paintball guns and archery equipment will only be stored during the first week prior to hunting season and one week after the appropriate season. Special arrangements will be made upon request. Two forms of ID must be presented at check-in and check out. The check out sheet must be signed by both the officer and gun owner. All weapons must be unloaded and ammunition must be separate, either in case or other appropriate means. All weapons must be in case or sleeve. Automatic weapons or semi-automatic (assault weapons) are not permitted on College property. Campus Police reserves the right of issuance of any stored firearm if in the judgment of the Officer on duty that the release of the weapon is detrimental to the safety of the College community. Check-in does not mean surrender or turn over, just check- in. Hello, campus police? Yes I have a weapon. Indeed a firearm cannot be surrendered over the phone. The policy clearly states that automatic and semi-automatic(assault weapons) are not permitted. If that is the list of not permitted weapons, then other firearms must be permitted.  |
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Tomahawk Regular Member
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Thundar wrote: Rifles, shotguns, paintball guns and archery equipment will only be stored during the first week prior to hunting season and one week after the appropriate season. Special arrangements will be made upon request. They think paintball guns are for hunting? |
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tapper95 Regular Member
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I wonder if the author of the policy has ever even seen a picture of a gun... It sounds like addition of the paintball gun was after the original version... not only ignorance but laziness... ...but I do have a funny picture in my head of some guy bragging to his friends about he shot that deer up all orange and green... |
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Thundar Regular Member
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Tomahawk wrote: Thundar wrote:Rifles, shotguns, paintball guns and archery equipment will only be stored during the first week prior to hunting season and one week after the appropriate season. Special arrangements will be made upon request. Do paintball guns fall under firearms or archery equipment? |
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Tomahawk Regular Member
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Thundar wrote: Tomahawk wrote:Thundar wrote:Rifles, shotguns, paintball guns and archery equipment will only be stored during the first week prior to hunting season and one week after the appropriate season. Special arrangements will be made upon request. What difference does it make? I...erm...knew a guy who used to shoot at deer with a paintball gun...he and his jackass buddies thought it was funny to see the animal running around the woods with a big green dot on it's side. I don't think they hit very many. Especially if they were as bright as he was. Last edited on Tue Mar 11th, 2008 04:41 am by Tomahawk |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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Hey guys, the story broke in my local paper: http://www.timesnews.net/article.php?id=9005490 It's a great write-up, IMO. And I just got the call--I've been expelled. |
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bohdi Regular Member
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Good story in the paper, got any other recourse? |
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Doug Huffman Regular Member
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http://www.timesnews.net/article.php?id=9005490 Published 03/10/2008 By Kacie Dingus Breeding WISE — Today a student at the University of Virginia’s College at Wise may learn whether school officials are convinced he’s nothing like the character he described in a story his creative writing class found disturbing on Feb. 28. Steven Daniel Barber, 23, an Iraq veteran who enrolled at UVa-Wise in August, was expelled Feb. 29, the day after sharing a story he wrote about a character in an English class who contemplates murdering his professor before turning to thoughts of suicide. Chancellor David Prior heard an appeal of the expulsion Monday. Though Prior was unavailable to comment, Barber said Prior will announce today whether he will uphold his expulsion. At the time of his expulsion, Barber had been working on a double major in political science and administration of justice and maintained a GPA of 3.9. “One of the first stories that we read was about a girl who murders her boyfriend, and it was graphic in the act with the blade going in his back and blood spraying everywhere and all this crazy stuff. And you know, a couple of us told jokes — you know, I don’t want to date her, that kind of thing. But nobody took it seriously because everybody can separate the author from the character,” Barber said Monday. “In my story there is no violence. He doesn’t do anything other than drinking and drug use and writing. There is no violence. But yet, everybody assumes that the character is the writer, which couldn’t be further from the truth,” he added. After he submitted the story, officials searched Barber’s dorm room for the weapon his character kept under a pillow. Though no weapons were found there, Barber told Sgt. Randy Wyatt with campus police he had a .45-caliber handgun, a small .22-caliber Derringer, and a 9 mm handgun in his car and that he had a permit for them. Barber said he believes a policy prohibiting weapons on campus violates state law prohibiting governmental entities from restricting the possession of firearms. Barber added that he often refers to what happened at Grundy’s Appalachian School of Law as an example of why students should be allowed to have guns on campus. “This guy goes in, he shoots — I think he killed three people — and two students run out to their cars, they get their weapons, they get their pistols, and they run back inside and subdue the guy. Nobody remembers that because it had a low body count, and the reason it had a low body count is because two students ran back inside with their weapons and subdued the killer,” he said. The discovery of the weapons coupled with the story his classmates found disturbing led campus officials to require Barber to undergo a series of mental heath evaluations. As part of the process, he was escorted by campus police to a Frontier Health facility in Big Stone Gap. Wyatt said in a report that he was waiting in the lobby while Barber met with a counselor. Wyatt said he received a page from Dean Jewell Worley. Wyatt said in the report that Worley then told him that Barber was “going to be committed” and had been expelled and banned from school property pending a March 6 hearing with Vice Chancellor Gary Juhan. Wyatt was not available to explain what he meant by the term “committed,” but Campus Safety Chief Steve McCoy said Monday that it meant Barber was “involuntarily transported” to Ridgeview. Temporary detainment is “similar” to involuntary commitment, “as far as a police officer is concerned,” he added. “A TDO (temporary detainment order) is different from commitment,” Barber said. “TDO is just that some crisis counselor decided there was probable cause that you are crazy. Involuntary committal is when the judge says, not only is there probable cause, it’s decided that you actually are crazy.” Commonwealth’s Attorney Marcus McClung said Monday that the differences between detainment and committal are not relevant to Barber’s case. His handgun permit would have been suspended during the execution of the TDO, he said, and to reinstate it Barber would just need to present favorable evidence at an appeal, such as a finding of mental competence. When asked whether possession of the handguns on campus might still warrant the student’s expulsion, Juhan said, “There’s nothing that’s that clear-cut.” “Each case is looked at individually — given the history, given the events that surround it and what got us to that point,” he added. Barber said his last run-in with Juhan concerned the vice chancellor’s attempts to censor an underground newspaper he and some friends distribute on campus. “Notes from Underground” concerns college politics, with varied topics including the lack of an American flag on campus and the possibility of racism affecting how the SGA handles funds distribution, Barber said. As for his questionable story, Barber concluded, it’s “just a free speech issue.” |
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deepdiver Activist Member 
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capablanca911 wrote: Hey guys, the story broke in my local paper:Terrible. I'm so sorry to hear that it went that way for you. |
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Repeater Regular Member
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capablanca911 wrote: Hey guys, the story broke in my local paper:If this is any comfort, you are not alone. The Fire provides information on student free-speech rights, including information on cases like this one: Valdosta State University: Student Expelled for Peacefully Protesting Parking Garages |
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Mike Super Moderator
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Another news story: http://www.tricities.com/tristate/tri/search.apx.-content-articles-TRI-2008-03-11-0003.html |
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deepdiver Activist Member
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I would strongly suggest contacting Mike Adams. He is a huge supporter of 2A rights and he is also very active with student freedom of speech issues. He has helped other students contact advocacy groups/think tanks which have mounted a legal defense for students in situations such as yours. This would be right up his alley. He is also a professor of criminology at UNC-Wilmington and is well versed in the politics of leftist campus administrators. Here's his home page with contact info on the left: http://www.dradams.org/ |
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deepdiver Activist Member
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“This is the kind of thing we are going to take seriously until we know otherwise,” University Vice Chancellor Gary Juhan said Monday. “If we make a mistake, we will err on the side of the community.” Um yeah. This guy shouldn't be the principal of a failing inner city day care for crack babies. I'm sorry, Mr Juhan, but my reading of the constitution only finds protection of individual rights. Our founders talked extensively about erring on the side of individual rights and our entire judicial system was therefore based on the very concept of erring in favor of individual innocence. Nothing about community rights there. Now, on the other hand, the writings of Marx and his followers talk extensivily about erring on the side of the community. You have identified yourself for what you are Mr. Juhan and give further proof, as if it were needed, that Joe McCarthy was right all along even though his tactics needed work. |
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Neplusultra Regular Member
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deepdiver wrote: I would strongly suggest contacting Mike Adams. He is a huge supporter of 2A rights and he is also very active with student freedom of speech issues. He has helped other students contact advocacy groups/think tanks which have mounted a legal defense for students in situations such as yours. This would be right up his alley. He is also a professor of criminology at UNC-Wilmington and is well versed in the politics of leftist campus administrators. Here's his home page with contact info on the left: I would strongly second that! I read Dr. Adams column regularly and I'm pretty sure he'd love to jump all over this. |
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peter nap Regular Member
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I'm sorry Stephen! |
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Mike Super Moderator
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Another article: http://www.cavalierdaily.com/CVArticle.asp?ID=32697&pid=1697 |
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massltca Regular Member 
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LEO 229 wrote: I would still have taken my chances that the warrant would not be obtained successfully. I would have too, nothing is gained by consenting to a search. If they searched his vehicle anyway then at least his rights would be intact, now he can't contest any of it. |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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Jeez, I'm getting crucified at ar15.com I'm stuck on stupid at the moment--can't figure out how to post there to respond lol I didn't really expect that level of cynicism on *these* boards. Oh well. Here's the update: http://www.timesnews.net/article.php?id=9005496 I picked up all the documents re: my suspended permit. It's a 3 day wait on getting copies of my medical records. I move out of my dorm tomarrow. |
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massltca Regular Member
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LEO 229 wrote: We do not know the details of what he said in person on his feelings or intentions. Now that he has been committed does this make him permenently inellegible to own firearms?  |
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massltca Regular Member
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Are you going to be able to get your CHP and guns back? |
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massltca Regular Member
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hsmith wrote: pretty @#$%ty story, but a reminder to all - trust no one, never consent to search (but never resist), and DEMAND a lawyer ASAP. Sadly, there would have been no grounds to search the car if you kept your mouth shut. +1 |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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I wasn't involuntarily committed, I was issued a temporary detention order. |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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Campus Police are going to give the guns to my dad, pending my hearing to reinstate my permit (which will establish that I was NOT involuntarily committed). But requesting that hearing will have to wait until I have the medical records. |
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VCDL President Regular Member 
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capablanca911 wrote: Jeez, I'm getting crucified at ar15.com I'm stuck on stupid at the moment--can't figure out how to post there to respond lolI remember when I first broke the news about the BATFE going to people's homes to see if family, friends and neighbors knew they were buying guns at a gun show - I, too, was crucified for a while on some boards. BS flags were flying everywhere. When the information finally came out in the press, then the crow-eating began. Looks like it is time to sue the school over what is clearly BS. |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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That's the plan. I don't know what tomarrow holds--but I know Who holds tomarrow. |
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Thundar Regular Member
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LRS76251 wrote: Although they have state certifications, most campus police couldn't catch a cold it if caught them first. Most of them are pretty incompetent officers. They should leave investigations to REAL professionals and go back to playing barney fife on campus. I'm a cop and I know they are idiots because I've seen how they conduct themselves first hand. When we go on campuses across the country to do security details for political candidates, most of us end up walking away shaking our heads in disbelief.It amazes me that you think that campus police are not real professionals. Most are competent peace officers and are excellent at community policing. The degradation of the very important work that they do with a Barny Fife comment drips with the arrogance of a Federal JBT. |
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VAopencarry Regular Member 
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capa, as you are finding out, a lot of 'gun people' don't care about overzealous colleges, or police, or judges or care if people get railroaded, don't care much about civil liberty in general. Most here believe in the 2d Amendment and all the others too. Good luck in getting this all sorted out. |
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Neplusultra Regular Member
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capablanca911 wrote: That's the plan. I don't know what tomarrow holds--but I know Who holds tomarrow. Awhile back I had a PC experience. I sent an invitation to what I thought was a friend to go shooting, as I do almost invariably with all new friends. It was right after the Tech shooting, a few weeks. I sent him the original photo that I use for my userpic. I had just gotten that gun and said we could shoot it or go skeet shooting, which I said I prefered skeet. The next day two FBI agents, an ATF agent and a Blacksburg Detective showed up at my place of work. During the "interview" I was asked if I thought the photo inappropriate. I said no, that I didn't believe in that politically correct crap. If there is nothing evil about the gun there is nothing evil about it and it should be talked about freely no matter how someone else uses it for evil. If someone uses his car to kill a bunch of people should I speak in hushed tones when speaking of mine? After a number of hours they all agreed that this person had over reacted and they left. Ultimately you have the right to free speech. And if you're going to write a black story that will touch on peoples fears then you certainly chose the right topic! I've never heard of a horror story that was written about little white bunnies. If anything it sounds like your story is about someone who chose to do what was right. If only Cho had done so. My offer still stands for help with the lawyer. Let me know. Glad to read you're going to fight it. Another idea is that whoever you have your loans through may defer them while you fight the school in court so you may not have to re-enlist. Tell them if they wait until the end of the trial you'll pay them off in one payment . I imagine if you re-enlist it will be years before you could be back in class. |
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Neplusultra Regular Member
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VAopencarry wrote: capa, as you are finding out, a lot of 'gun people' don't care about overzealous colleges, or police, or judges or care if people get railroaded, don't care much about civil liberty in general. Most here believe in the 2d Amendment and all the others too. You're right about that! It's something I've noticed too. |
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Neplusultra Regular Member
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Steve, I've noticed that none of the news reports have mentioned how you came up with the name "Christopher" or that you didn't realize that was the first name of your prof. Have you ever mentioned either of these points with the media? It's very significant since otherwise it makes your story appear personally directed at the prof. |
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LEO 229 Regular Member
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capablanca911 wrote: I wasn't involuntarily committed, I was issued a temporary detention order. Agreed.. the TDO is only to figure out if you should BE committed and then you would be restricted. |
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Doug Huffman Regular Member
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deepdiver wrote: I would strongly suggest contacting Mike Adams. He is a huge supporter of 2A rights and he is also very active with student freedom of speech issues. He has helped other students contact advocacy groups/think tanks which have mounted a legal defense for students in situations such as yours. This would be right up his alley. He is also a professor of criminology at UNC-Wilmington and is well versed in the politics of leftist campus administrators. Here's his home page with contact info on the left: http://www.townhall.com/columnists/MikeSAdams/2008/03/10/one_giant_leap_for_personkind http://www.dradams.org/ mailto:adams_mike@hotmail.com |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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Yeah, a lot of the campus police guys are vetern LEO--many of them are from the sheriff's office. Campus police were very nice, very polite, etc. They just have to do what the administration directs them to do. That's the problem. |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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I definately could use some help. As soon as I have copies of my records (Friday I think) I'm getting a lawyer for the permit. I'll get a different one for the lawsuit, but that's on down the road. |
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peter nap Regular Member
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capablanca911 wrote: I definately could use some help. As soon as I have copies of my records (Friday I think) I'm getting a lawyer for the permit. I wouldn't wait to litigate this. Check VCDL's site for a list of 2A lawyers or check with the Bar's lawyer referral service. You need to resume your education as well as clear your name. Your story is out now, so you might want to slow down on the postings until you talk to a lawyer.... Good Luck! |
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outingBarber Regular Member
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DELETED - BobCav Last edited on Wed Mar 12th, 2008 07:37 pm by |
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Repeater Regular Member
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capablanca911 wrote: That's the plan. I don't know what tomarrow holds--but I know Who holds tomarrow. Gun Week published this Chuck Asay cartoon in their latest issue:  |
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outingBarber Regular Member
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DELETED - BobCav Last edited on Wed Mar 12th, 2008 07:36 pm by |
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Doug Huffman Regular Member
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outingBarber wrote: DELETED - BobCav (Sorry Doug, just can't leave that kind of drivel on the forum) QFT from another anonymous poison-pen author. An argument for hand vetting of 'members.' How will the accused confront his accuser? PM allowed poison-pen messages directed at me to be kept private while this idiot outs himself. BM is the senior rating in the Navy, the first to command in the event ALL officers are incapacitated. They aren't required to be choir boys but to be OLD FASHIONED sailors. I knew a MMCPO that took his antabuse in front of the quack and then drank and puked until he was drunk - and COB. As to these literally baseless accusations of homosexual rape; too bad a hypothetically queer BM can't serve on a submarine for his rating rather than his orientation. Which "felony conviction" was this and which college, law school for a wannabe attorney or criminal justice for a wannabe cop? Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA KMA$$ Last edited on Wed Mar 12th, 2008 07:39 pm by |
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BobCav Founder's Club Member 
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Folks, this outingBarber is a troll and his posts are NOT related to OCDO, merely attempting to discredit a member here for whatever reason. His opinion of Barber is not based in fact and he is innocent until proven guilty. Something this "Sailor" seems to have forgotten. (Real Sailors know that the word Sailor is now spelled with a capitol "S". Navy policy enacted after the death of Admiral Arleigh A. Burke - "Sailor") Posts deleted. Bob GSCS(SW) Ret. |
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LEO 229 Regular Member
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Thanks Bob.... I was wondering what that was all about. |
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BobCav Founder's Club Member
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Yeah, they're still online waiting to see what kind of response they can get. Surprise! |
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Doug Huffman Regular Member
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No sweat. I made my point about hand vetting would be members. And about poison-pen PMs... Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. |
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DrMark Lone Star Veteran
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capablanca911 wrote: Jeez, I'm getting crucified at ar15.com Don't take it personally. The theme of "don't consent to any search" runs deep there. That, combined with a huge membership and looser moderation, means many will just point out what you did that, in their opinion, was wrong. A thick skin helps there, but the diversity of opinion and experience often results in some useful perspectives and ideas. |
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peter nap Regular Member
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Damn.....Go to a meeting and miss another troll |
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Neplusultra Regular Member
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peter nap wrote: Damn.....Go to a meeting and miss another troll I know I missed it too. It would have been fun to see the pile on but BobCav was right in that it would take us off the very important issue at hand. |
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KBCraig Regular Member
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All this college PC-ism would be amusing if it wasn't so serious. Lives are ruined on the merest hint that someone might feel offended or threatened (and they use a very loose definition of "threatened"). If you've got a spare $12.99, go purchase "Indoctrinate U." I did, and it's a great little documentary. http://www.indoctrinate-u.com/intro/ |
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kf4uel@yahoo.com Regular Member
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I’m neutral on this one, He did break the school's policy however, and I feel the punishment doesn’t fit the situation. This guy proved he was safe for society by his ability to get into the military, get a CWP, and pass the additonal scrutiny of the TDO's mental evaluation! This student did not break the law! Why severely punish a student who obeys state laws and cooperates fully? Underage dirking and drugs are both against the law, but from personal observance (when I worked there) it happens everyday !! They need to search the place and start expelling students that are high and have bags of dope or pills in thier dorms and cars. These are the dangerous students that are breakin the law!! If anything troubled students will never speak out. Do we want to be like the defenseless nation Great Britain, where even pepper spray is banned? wheww that was a rant, My best wishes to man... I hope you win your lawsuit. For my input the schools weapon policy is very open and loosly worded, it does say to check them in with the campus cops but it doesnt detail the disciplinary actions for violations or point out specifics. Let alone "exceptions can be made". Does anyone have persmission to carry?? I think you have room to sue....good luck |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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I really want to watch that! And Ben Stein's new documentary too. Man, can you believe it? Yeah, I'm not an angel. I got arrested once for public intox, and I've recieved treatment. But arrested for being a rapist? A gay rapist? Come on. That dog don't hunt. I imagine they'll wise up and the smears will be more believable. I just wish I knew if it's some football jock with a scholorship from the college or not. Eh. This is making me cynical. |
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deepdiver Activist Member
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kf4uel@yahoo.com wrote: I’m neutral on this one, He did break the school's policy however, and I feel the punishment doesn’t fit the situation. This guy proved he was safe for society by his ability to get into the military, get a CWP, and pass the additonal scrutiny of the TDO's mental evaluation! This student did not break the law! Why severely punish a student who obeys state laws and cooperates fully?I might be neutral too if this were say a matter of another student walking by, seeing a gun on his car seat, against school policy, and calling campus security leading to this mess. But that isn't how it went down. This started with a story in creative writing class. A story in which no one got hurt. That led to questions. Which led to a search of campus housing, which led to a search of the car, which led to an evaluation with a counselor, which led to (wrongly from everything I can discern) involuntary committal in a mental hospital for evaluation, which led to a revocation of his CPL, all of which led to his expulsion. |
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Citizen Founder's Club Member
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deepdiver wrote: SNIP ...which led to an evaluation with a counselor, which led to (wrongly from everything I can discern) involuntary committal in a mental hospital for evaluation,... Hmmmmm. You might be on to something here. What if we turned their tactics back against the paranoiacs. "You were scared because of his story in creative writing class, Mr. College Administrator?" "Well, yes. I quite understand." "Please step over here and don this jacket while I set up an appointment for you for an evaluation." "Yes, I know the sleeves are way too long. So are some of your rants in class, but this will only be temporary attire (until we can get you shackled  )"What would be the correct dose of Thorazine for a leftist, gun-phobe, college administrator? Oh, I'm sorry. They already behave as if they've been chemically lobotomized. Can't measure a dosage that small. Oh, well. We'll just have to turn to electric shock treatments...er..uh...electro-convulsive therapy. (joke everybody)EDIT: For the record, Citizen has VERY strong objections to psychiatry being used for political purposes. Last edited on Thu Mar 13th, 2008 03:52 am by Citizen |
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CPerdue Regular Member
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ama-gi wrote Did you pursue it in court on a Dillon Rule argument? If not, why not and are you planning to in the future?Did I? No. Mr. Griffith advised me not to, brokered the deal I took. I didn't know what I was doing but was sure it would stop my education. I don't think I can pursue the issue now - no standing anymore. Yes, I wish I could do it over. The OP is in a better position - he has already lost about all he can, got nowhere to go but up. C. |
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Mike Super Moderator
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Another article: http://www.tricities.com/tristate/tri/news.apx.-content-articles-TRI-2008-03-13-0015.html |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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The Courier is really pissing me off. I've started a blog to fact-check them at http://stevebarbertruthsquad.blogspot.com Check the post called "Muckraking" |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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And now outingbarber troll is at my blog. *sigh* |
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hsmith Regular Member
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capablanca911 wrote: And now outingbarber troll is at my blog. *sigh* Do you have any idea who he is? |
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Doug Huffman Regular Member
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capablanca911 wrote: The Courier is really pissing me off. Don't. Do not 'blog for just these reasons. Point fact checkers here so we can check their 'facts' too and protect you from evil doers. |
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t3rmin Regular Member
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Wow, what a raw deal. Best of luck defending yourself against the thought police. Irrational nonsense like this where we have to defend that which should need no defense, against unreasonable, feeling-but-not-thinking people, brings to mind a passage from Atlas Shrugged: There was no action she could take against the men of undefined thought, of unnamed motives, of unstated purposes, of unspecified morality. There was nothing she could say to them-nothing would be heard or answered. What were the weapons, she thought, in a realm where reason was not a weapon any longer? Last edited on Thu Mar 13th, 2008 07:32 pm by t3rmin |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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This whole thing is making me sick. I want to just log off for a while, but I don't wanna come back to national headlines: Gay Rapist al Qaeda Student Expelled--Eats Babies and Kills Puppies! |
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mechanic_of_me Regular Member
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I noticed this story in the Jimson Weed (UVA-Wise's student and community writing publication). 19 Years Under Water starting on page 27 http://www.uvawise.edu/jimsonweed/documents/jimsonchngsmd.pdf they had let a this story be published. Hypocritical? "I failed math that year; I had Mr. Hagerty. I told him if I had a gun I would shoot myself. I didn’t really mean it; I just wanted attention, but there’s no diagnosis for that is there? He had me looked at by the school psychologist. She made me take a psychological test, but me knowing exactly what they were looking for with all the past counseling I had, I passed the test, or at least I thought I did. " -Anonymous Last edited on Thu Mar 13th, 2008 10:13 pm by mechanic_of_me |
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peter nap Regular Member
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capablanca911 wrote: This whole thing is making me sick. I want to just log off for a while, but I don't wanna come back to national headlines: Gay Rapist al Qaeda Student Expelled--Eats Babies and Kills Puppies! Oh, that was you that raped the gay al Qaeda Student? Sorry Stephen...Couldn't resist. Keep your chin up. It WILL get better soon! |
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cato Regular Member
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It's already been suggested so I'd recommend to do it...stay off the internet  and get an attorney...and don't engage the trolls on blogs or boards...take a break and clear your thoughts and GET an ATTORNEY.I don't believe the forced medical detention will stand up to scrutiny...your rights were violated...the school and their police dept. have harmed your good name so...get an attorney. |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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Good job on the Jimson Weed post! As for the lawyer, I know I know. |
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Thundar Regular Member
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How is the court able to revoke a CHP based upon a Temporary Detention Order (TDO)? When one reads the plain language of the statutes it is clear that a TDO only holds a person until the commitment hearing and is not an involuntary commitment under Section 37.2-814. Applicable parts of the law: § 37.2-814. Commitment hearing for involuntary admission; written explanation; right to counsel; rights of petitioner. A. The commitment hearing for involuntary admission shall be held within 48 hours of the execution of the temporary detention order as provided for in § 37.2-809; however, if the 48-hour period herein specified terminates on a Saturday, Sunday, legal holiday, or day on which the court is lawfully closed, the person may be detained, as herein provided, until the next day that is not a Saturday, Sunday, legal holiday, or day on which the court is lawfully closed. B. At the commencement of the commitment hearing, the district court judge or special justice shall inform the person whose involuntary admission is being sought of his right to apply for voluntary admission and treatment as provided for in § 37.2-805 and shall afford the person an opportunity for voluntary admission. The judge or special justice shall ascertain if the person is then willing and capable of seeking voluntary admission and treatment. If the judge or special justice finds that the person is capable and willingly accepts voluntary admission and treatment, the judge or special justice shall require him to accept voluntary admission for a minimum period of treatment not to exceed 72 hours. After such minimum period of treatment, the person shall give the hospital 48 hours' notice prior to leaving the hospital. During this notice period, the person shall not be discharged except as provided in § 37.2-837, 37.2-838, or 37.2-840. The person shall be subject to the transportation provisions as provided in § 37.2-829 and the requirement for preadmission screening by a community services board or behavioral health authority as provided in § 37.2-805. § 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry. E. The following persons shall be deemed disqualified from obtaining a permit: 4. An individual who was ineligible to possess a firearm under § 18.2-308.1:3 and who was released from commitment less than five years before the date of this application for a concealed handgun permit. § 18.2-308.1:3. Purchase, possession or transportation of firearm by persons involuntarily committed; penalty. A. It shall be unlawful for any person involuntarily committed pursuant to Article 5 (§ 37.2-814 et seq.) of Chapter 8 of Title 37.2 to purchase, possess or transport a firearm during the period of such person's commitment. A violation of this subsection shall be punishable as a Class 1 misdemeanor. B. Any person prohibited from purchasing, possessing or transporting firearms under this section may, at any time following his release from commitment, petition the circuit court in the city or county in which he resides to restore his right to purchase, possess or transport a firearm. The court may, in its discretion and for good cause shown, grant the petition. The clerk shall certify and forward forthwith to the Central Criminal Records Exchange, on a form provided by the Exchange, a copy of any such order. (1994, c. 907; 2004, c. 995.) |
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Mike Super Moderator
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Thundar wrote: How is the court able to revoke a CHP based upon a Temporary Detention Order (TDO)? When one reads the plain language of the statutes it is clear that a TDO only holds a person until the commitment hearing and is not an involuntary commitment under Section 37.2-814. You are correct - a news story will emerge shortly I think identifying this mistake. |
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Mike Super Moderator
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Com. Attny. seems to understand the first CHP suspension won't last and might have been bogus - UVA cooked up a pretty weak case on the guy to get him TDOed and a police SGT from campus police merely put forth a statements about this TDO. http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/154908 |
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67GT390FB Regular Member
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Mike wrote: Com. Attny. seems to understand the first CHP suspension won't last and might have been bogus - UVA cooked up a pretty weak case on the guy to get him TDOed and a police SGT from campus police merely put forth a statements about this TDO. mike, this is a small point and i'm not sure that UVA would have handled the situation any differently or worse but this is UVA-Wise(formerly clinch valley college not UVA, just like UNC-charlotte is not the same as UNC(chapel hill). The two institutions are seperate AFAIK they don't share a BOV, president etc, I believe it is a completely autonomous entity as far as the admin. joe ok i was wrong and i edited this post. i looked a little further and found that they do share john casteen III as president and a common BOV. the college in question should still be refered to correctly as UVA-Wise. Last edited on Mon Mar 17th, 2008 06:52 pm by 67GT390FB |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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Can someone please explain to me, from THEIR point of view, how taking away my permit alleivates said 'emergency'? |
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CPerdue Regular Member
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Maybe your attorney could explain it to you. Don't have one yet? Even after several of us, myself included, have offered to help pay? Look, this is simple. You are going to get totally screwed unless you have an expert defend your rights. Done properly, your education will be free and lots of people will be grateful. Please quit dicking around and get some representation. An early order of business would be to set up a legal defence fund. As to the student loans - what collateral did you put up? None? Then don't worry about paying them back this instant ESPECIALLY if taking action to do so will make you available to fight a legal action. Go flip burgers for a semester or so but don't re-up (God I never thought I would say that). C. |
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Neplusultra Regular Member
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CPerdue wrote: Maybe your attorney could explain it to you. Don't have one yet? Even after several of us, myself included, have offered to help pay? Look, this is simple. You are going to get totally screwed unless you have an expert defend your rights. Done properly, your education will be free and lots of people will be grateful. Please quit dicking around and get some representation. An early order of business would be to set up a legal defence fund. I second it Steve. VCDL has a list of 2A attorneys that may even take your case on the cheap. I know I'll help you out, I can't pay for it all but there are others who will help too. You have a good case, you did nothing illegal or that should have warranted your expulsion, an investigation yes, expulsion no. DO NOT re-up, stick around for what will be a great fight for "OUR" rights. |
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deepdiver Activist Member
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CPerdue wrote: Maybe your attorney could explain it to you. Don't have one yet? Even after several of us, myself included, have offered to help pay? Look, this is simple. You are going to get totally screwed unless you have an expert defend your rights. Done properly, your education will be free and lots of people will be grateful. Please quit dicking around and get some representation. An early order of business would be to set up a legal defence fund.I gotta agree. If you have not contacted an attorney independently, contacted one of the several conservative foundations set up to defend student's first amendment rights (which are often also 2A supporters or at least friendly) or contacted someone like Mike Adams (who is also a HUGE 2A supporter) who has a history of helping students find foundations which provide legal help usually at little or not cost to the student for such matters, then I'm not sure that we can do anything besides just be outraged in general. You have the support out here if you move on it. Given the comments you have made online lately I am guessing you do not have an atty or s/he would have probably told you to shut up and quit posting beyond certain information approved by him/her. Part of your dilema already arose from you not knowing legally, when campus security asked to search your vehicle, to say, "I don't think so, Scooter." Not ripping on you, just pointing out that you don't use an army general to fight a naval battle. Get the person who knows what you need to do and what you need to say. There are also probably a lot of very, very important time limits, and some will be quite short, on certain things you must do to protect yourself now that if you miss, you can NEVER go back and redo. I damn near begged you in an earlier post to do one of the above 3 things. If you do not and if you re-enlist without speaking to an attorney before hand, you may end up with nothing except a bad learning experience about zero tolerance type nonsense at colleges. I even considered emailing Mike Adams on your behalf, but you know, you are an adult and a veteran and if you can't/won't help yourself then there is nothing we can do for you. If you have done one of the above 3 things, disregard my comments and accept my well wishes that your attorney will rip off Wise County Commonwealth's Attorney Ron Elkins' manhood (in a legal sense) for being a complete and utter tool. Somebody needs to pick up that puppet by the stick in his butt, throw him in a crate and ship his self-righteous, it's only illegal when you do it attitude self to NJ or MA where he can graze in the urban pastures of sheepdom with his like kind. |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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Hey guys, Here's the update. I've emailed a lawyer (recommended by VCDL): Edwin Vieira Jr. I've also emailed The Rutherford Institute, with no luck. I'm email Mike Adams now. |
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hsmith Regular Member
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Call, don't email. |
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deepdiver Activist Member
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capablanca911 wrote: Hey guys,Glad to see you are taking affirmative steps to protect your rights and, in many ways just as importantly (although not so immediately obvious when mired in such an awful situation), the rights of those who might not be victimized by the system if you are successful in your pursuit of justice. Best of luck to you! Let us know if we can help. ETA: Since you have taken proactive steps on this matter, as my initial act of support I also emailed Mike Adams, with unfortunately no standing beyond that of a loyal reader, to petition him for his help with your troubles. I will be most interested in Mr. Adams response to you. Oh, and on a "DOH" moment, I found 2 errors in my email to Mr. Adams in a quick re-read AFTER sending it (well, if you count my addressing the email as "Dear Mike" instead of "Dear Mr. Adams" we can make that 3). While that may not seem like a big deal, he has proven himself to be quite the grammarian and occasional "grammar nazi" and all were errors I should have caught in my initial proof reading, meaning they are all errors he will mentally log as he reads (assuming it gets in the "I'm actually going to read this" folder). If anyone has any interest in my email to Mr Adams, I will post it, embarassingly obvious typos and all (as long as Doug and Sa45auto promise not to point out any further grammatical errors I may have overlooked). Last edited on Mon Mar 17th, 2008 11:58 pm by deepdiver |
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skidmark Activist Member
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Post away. We need examples of how to contact allies and resources, and if you can supply the "bad examples" maybe we can figure out the "good examples" by ourselves. I've spent a lifetime serving as the "bad example" and do not fear competition from you. It may even remove some of the burden from my shoulders. stay safe. skidmark |
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AbNo Regular Member 
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CPerdue wrote: I know I'll help you out, I can't pay for it all but there are others who will help too. I can spare a couple of bucks for something this important. Last edited on Tue Mar 18th, 2008 07:37 am by AbNo |
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Thundar Regular Member
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How any wrong things do we have here? 1. Use of TDO to revoke CHP (VA Code) 2. University Release of HIPPA and FERPA protected information (VA and Federal Privacy law) 3. False statement by University Police Officer to Commonwealth Attorney (VA Code) 4. Enforcement of a total ban against a CHP holder (AG Opinion) 5. 1st A 6. 2nd A 7. 4th A There has to be more. Add to the list. |
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deepdiver Activist Member
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skidmark wrote: Post away. We need examples of how to contact allies and resources, and if you can supply the "bad examples" maybe we can figure out the "good examples" by ourselves.Laff - well, I hope it isn't overall a "bad example", and barring a few, I hope minor errors, I think it is a decent petition for assistance. But I do not have a lot of experience at these things so all of you can be the judge of whether I may or may not have helped young Mr. Barber's cause with Mr. Adams: Dear Mike: I have read your columns for a few years now and have come to much admire your writing and your sentiments. I have become (perhaps still becoming at least as far as knowledge) something of a firearm aficionado as well and have found your firearms columns to be both entertaining and informative, especially now that I am usually familiar with the firearms you discuss. Actually, when I decided to obtain a CCW, your recommendation a year or so prior as to the SA XD pistols was one of the reasons I first looked into them eventually choosing a .45 service compact as my preferred carry pistol. I have also come to admire your work on First Amendment rights for students, your positive outlook on life and your clear moral code. Organized religion is a topic we would likely agree to disagree on, however, I think that we would share much on the issue of faith. In short, I appreciate the fact that you make me both laugh and contemplate. I am writing today to bring to your attention the legal troubles, arising from, in my opinion, a First Amendment issue in a class, culminating in Second Amendment issues and an expulsion for a UVA-Wise student and USN veteran named Steven Daniel Barber. He is a member of http://www.opencarry.org where I became aware of this matter (the thread on the forum can be found at: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/8829-1.html ). For the purposes of disclosure, I am "deepdiver" on the forum. On the forum, I have encouraged Mr. Barber to contact you given that you are clearly a supporter of both First and Second Amendment rights for students and have many contacts which may be helpful for him in defending himself. Mr. Barber finally indicated today that he was going to contact you himself. As I believe in personal responsibility, I did not make any effort to contact you about this matter until he took action himself to protect and defend his rights. Obviously I have no standing to make any request of you and simply ask that you at least review his request for assistance. I have no stake in this matter beyond my interest in justice and protection of our constitutional rights. I have never met Mr. Barber and only know his name through news articles. If the facts are as presented by Mr. Barber and news outlets, I am concerned both for him and for future students who might find themselves in similar situations due to over reactions by administration officials, campus police and commonwealth attorneys. While I am nearly two decades past my undergraduate studies, as I am soon marrying for the first time and contemplating starting a family in the near future, I fear what my future offspring will face during collegiate studies if these abuses are not stopped now. For your convenience I have attached links to the news stories as to this matter posted on the above forum. While I have personally followed each link and found them all to be legitimate, safe links, I understand you may not be inclined to click a blind link in an email. As you would expect, a web search of Mr. Barber's name will eventually locate numerous news stories, blogs and forum hits on this matter. I am sure that you are buried in emails and bombarded by requests such as this. This was simply a matter of you being the first person I thought of when I read of this situation as it seemed much within your venue, and the suggestion to Mr. Barber to contact you seemed appropriate. If I have referred a matter that inadvertently becomes problematic for you, I apologize in advance. Thank you for your time and consideration and I look forward to your future writings, XXXXXX XXXXXXX News story links from the above opencarry.org forum thread (I believe in chronological order): http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/153661 http://www.timesnews.net/article.php?id=9005490 http://www.timesnews.net/article.php?id=9005490 http://www.tricities.com/tristate/tri/search.apx.-content-articles-TRI-2008-03-11-0003.html http://www.cavalierdaily.com/CVArticle.asp?ID=32697&pid=1697 http://www.timesnews.net/article.php?id=9005496 http://www.tricities.com/tristate/tri/news.apx.-content-articles-TRI-2008-03-13-0015.html http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/154908 ETA: WowBB reformatted the heck out of the email when I posted, removing paragraphs and spacing so this isn't exactly what it looked like, but I tried to edit it to get it as close as possible. Last edited on Tue Mar 18th, 2008 12:18 pm by deepdiver |
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skidmark Activist Member
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A+. You covered the issue and showed your work, as well as demonstrating you have done your homework. Check my PM for style issues. BTW, the internet allows informality, so addressing him as "Mike" is OK. If he objects he will let you know. My bet is he will be flattered that you had enough faith in him to "cold call" for assistance. stay safe. skidmark |
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CPerdue Regular Member
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Petitioning for help from a famous 2ndA advocate is all well and good, but I spent ten seconds on Google and had the name and address for a criminal defence/civil litigation attorney in Big Stone. Any professional help now is better than a white knight too late. You can always take on a second council or change who represents you later if need be. GET YOUR ASS DOWN TO SOMEONE'S OFFICE TODAY! MARCH! It is not like he has class or something ... C. |
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deepdiver Activist Member
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CPerdue wrote: Petitioning for help from a famous 2ndA advocate is all well and good, but I spent ten seconds on Google and had the name and address for a criminal defence/civil litigation attorney in Big Stone. Any professional help now is better than a white knight too late. You can always take on a second council or change who represents you later if need be. GET YOUR ASS DOWN TO SOMEONE'S OFFICE TODAY! MARCH!I agree re: attorney. I suggested Mike Adams or one of the student rights foundations because I understood money to be an issue. Many of us have encouraged him to find legal counsel since the beginning. If you read his last post, he emailed an atty recommended by VCDL. I do hope he heeds hsmith's and your advice and calls or goes to an atty's office today. On something like this I don't think email is going to carry the urgency of the matter. |
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Lysander Regular Member
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deepdiver wrote: CPerdue wrote:Petitioning for help from a famous 2ndA advocate is all well and good, but I spent ten seconds on Google and had the name and address for a criminal defence/civil litigation attorney in Big Stone. Any professional help now is better than a white knight too late. You can always take on a second council or change who represents you later if need be. GET YOUR ASS DOWN TO SOMEONE'S OFFICE TODAY! MARCH!I agree re: attorney. I suggested Mike Adams or one of the student rights foundations because I understood money to be an issue. Many of us have encouraged him to find legal counsel since the beginning. If you read his last post, he emailed an atty recommended by VCDL. I do hope he heeds hsmith's and your advice and calls or goes to an atty's office today. On something like this I don't think email is going to carry the urgency of the matter. +1 No, an email carries the connotation of "I need an attorney; not right now, but eventually." A phone call will (depending on the firm/attorney) put you in touch with someone that can begin the appointment process so a face-to-face meeting can occur. capablanca911 - you have a timer running on you; the longer it takes to retain an attorney, the more difficult it will be. You don't want to have the face to face meeting the day after any appeal time runs out, for instance. Nothing in the above message constitutes Legal Advice. Material is provided for informational/entertainment or other purposes and is not intended to constitute or be relied upon as Legal Advice. This is not an offer to form an attorney-client relationship. This is not advertising, nor intended to be such. While I am an attorney, I am NOT YOUR attorney. |
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deepdiver Activist Member
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Lysander, you need to pop in more often. Not only do I much enjoy your legal perspective, but I think you generally have a lot to offer the forum. |
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Nelson_Muntz Activist Member
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Also Capa - lots of attorneys have a free (or low cost) initial consultation. He'll get to hear what the situation is and be able to determine if and how he can help you. The fee may then be negotiable. |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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Spent all of yesterday attorney shopping. No takers yet. Round two is today. |
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deepdiver Activist Member
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Keep up the pursuit of justice. Let us know what we can do. |
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Pointman Regular Member 
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By all means, keep looking for an attorney. They have years of legal education behind them, plus experience, so you're much better with one than without. Good luck with your fight--it's an unfortunate society that fears a gun more than a criminal. Thanks also for your service to this country. It is appreciated. |
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Virginiaplanter Regular Member
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Don't contact Alan Gura, he's too busy telling the Supreme Court it's ok for Students on Campuses to not have guns. |
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ama-gi Regular Member
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Virginiaplanter wrote: Don't contact Alan Gura, he's too busy telling the Supreme Court it's ok for Students on Campuses to not have guns. Yes, the man who engineered what may be the biggest victory for gun rights in our lifetimes is the bad guy because he didn't stand up in front of 8 government loving liberals (and one constitutionalist) and say "Hey guys, vote for my view of the 2nd Amendment so we can legalize every gun for every purpose everywhere." All rights, according to the court, are subject to "time, place and manner" restrictions and to go into court arguing under a different assumption is like arguing football rules at a baseball game or saying "Well, we should be allowed to have 4 strikes." There's a reason that Gura hand-picked a sympathetic defendnet (a police officer) who had been a victim of crime before, with no criminal record living in the district to file his case. And there's a reason when he filed he argued the narrowest of narrow arguments. All he wants is one thing: the SCOTUS to settle that the 2nd Amendment is an individual right. The rest will come later, if it ever comes at all. He would've lost if he would've done that and even you know that. At the end of the day, we walk away from this case with more than we had. File your own case if you can do better. A lawyer will argue whatever way you want if you pay him enough. Last edited on Thu Mar 20th, 2008 01:55 am by ama-gi |
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Virginiaplanter Regular Member
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This thread is about an attorney for somebody to defend someone charged with possession of guns on campus. Alan Gura is on record now saying that he believes banning guns on campus is doable under the Second amendment. I do not want to get this thread off topic so I will state again. I would not want somebody who just stood up in the highest court in the land and argued that banning guns on campus is not an infringement. The judge in Virginia will bring that up. "Essentially, judicial estoppel forbids parties from "assum[ing] successive positions in the course of a suit, or series of suits, in reference to the same fact or state of facts, which are inconsistent with each other, or mutually contradictory." Burch v. Grace Street Bldg. Corp., 168 Va. 329, 340, 191 S.E. 672, 677 (1937); " Gura has tainted himself. His standing up in a court in Virginia stating that UVA's Gun Ban violates the Constitution when he is on record stating the opposite , will cause him to loose all credibility. |
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ama-gi Regular Member
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Deleted You're right, my post was taking us off-topic Last edited on Thu Mar 20th, 2008 03:55 am by ama-gi |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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I got a referral from the guy I emailed to start with. I went to one of the local attorney's offices yesterday. She was in court--supposed to call me today. |
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Neplusultra Regular Member
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capablanca911 wrote: I got a referral from the guy I emailed to start with. I went to one of the local attorney's offices yesterday. She was in court--supposed to call me today. Are you having any luck with finding a lawyer that specifically supports the 2A? Of course most of your issues is not 2A related so it may not matter that much. |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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At this point, I'm trying to find ANY lawyer that will take it. Can always add some speciality later. |
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Lysander Regular Member
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Source: http://www.courtbar.org/ Start with every attorney that does criminal defense (whether or not you think that is 'approporate'). Then contact every attorney on the court appointed list (if there is on) and every attorney on the involuntary committal list. Both should be maintained by the General District Court Clerk, but the latter list may not be easily obtainable. Every attorney in those three categories are your starting point. Grab the phone book, lawyers.com, or the like, and contact each attorney by phone. Nothing in the above message constitutes Legal Advice. Material is provided for informational/entertainment or other purposes and is not intended to constitute or be relied upon as Legal Advice. This is not an offer to form an attorney-client relationship. This is not advertising, nor intended to be such. While I am an attorney, I am NOT YOUR attorney. (Edit: no auto-signature) Last edited on Thu Mar 20th, 2008 03:21 pm by Lysander |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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§ 15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies. A. No locality shall adopt or enforce any ordinance, resolution or motion, as permitted by § 15.2-1425, and no agent of such locality shall take any administrative action, governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof other than those expressly authorized by statute. For purposes of this section, a statute that does not refer to firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, shall not be construed to provide express authorization. ... The provisions of this section applicable to a locality shall also apply to any authority or to a local governmental entity, including a department or agency, but not including any local or regional jail or juvenile detention facility. B. Any local ordinance, resolution or motion adopted prior to the effective date of this act governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, other than those expressly authorized by statute, is invalid. UVA is a governmental entity (administered locally BTW) here UVA as an agency here. Under the Administrative Process Act, an “Agency” UVA as a corporate authority here (shaky, but do-able argument) UVA Wise's Campus Police is a Department here ALTERNATIVE ARGUMENTS: UVA was created as a public corporation (page 7 of 116) and is subject to the Dillon Rule If the Heller Case establishes that the 2nd Amendment is an individual right, then Breach of Contract where the Code of Conduct states: "The College is a community of scholars in which the ideals of freedom of inquiry, freedom of thought, freedom of expression, and freedom of the individual are sustained. It is committed to preserving the exercise of any right guaranteed to individuals by the Constitution." Last edited on Thu Mar 20th, 2008 02:49 pm by capablanca911 |
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Lysander Regular Member
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capablanca911 wrote: I know this is bugging you, and you're trying. But, unless the hearing is in the next 2 or 3 business days, it might be more productive to man the phones and call each and every local attorney. I'm not local, btw. Spending time on here, at present, is not furthering the cause of finding an attorney to assist you with this. The more you post here, the more there's a "trail" here of comments, some of which may or may not be adjudged as statements against interest. PMs are one thing; open posts are another. Nothing in the above message constitutes Legal Advice. Material is provided for informational/entertainment or other purposes and is not intended to constitute or be relied upon as Legal Advice. This is not an offer to form an attorney-client relationship. This is not advertising, nor intended to be such. While I am an attorney, I am NOT YOUR attorney. |
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Lysander Regular Member
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Virginiaplanter wrote: "Essentially, judicial estoppel forbids parties from "assum[ing] successive positions in the course of a suit, or series of suits, in reference to the same fact or state of facts, which are inconsistent with each other, or mutually contradictory." Burch v. Grace Street Bldg. Corp., 168 Va. 329, 340, 191 S.E. 672, 677 (1937); "Don't want to further the derailment, but the key word is highlighted. Unless the attorney IS the plaintiff or defendant, the attorney is not a party, at least not in that sense. Nothing in the above message constitutes Legal Advice. Material is provided for informational/entertainment or other purposes and is not intended to constitute or be relied upon as Legal Advice. This is not an offer to form an attorney-client relationship. This is not advertising, nor intended to be such. While I am an attorney, I am NOT YOUR attorney. |
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Virginiaplanter Regular Member
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"The College is a community of scholars in which the ideals of freedom of inquiry, freedom of thought, freedom of expression, and freedom of the individual are sustained. It is committed to preserving the exercise of any right guaranteed to individuals by the Constitution." That's a great quote. The Doctrine of Contra proferentem: "Used in the connection with the construction of written documents to the effect that an ambiguous provision is construed most strongly against the person who selected the language." Black's Law Dictionary, 5th Ed. So the "any right" must include the right to self-defense and the means of self-defense, which includes firearms as enumerated/protected by the constitution. Last edited on Thu Mar 20th, 2008 07:50 pm by Virginiaplanter |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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Thanks Virginiaplanter! Here's the update: I've contacted the NRA for a referal (got two names). They're supposed to call back when they're out of the court room. I'm supposed to get a call back from a local attorney to schedule a consultation ($75 meah). So far she's my best bet locally it seems. Gun Owners of America don't have any attornies to refer me to that's west of Richmond. I'm working on typing out a fax to the NRA general counsel's office begging for some pro bono help or at least an amicus brief maybe (can that be done?). Does anybody here have a fax machine? When it's done, I can email you with an attachment so you can fax it? Some bonehead in UVA (Charlottsville) compared me to Mohammed Atta in their paper. Oy. Last edited on Thu Mar 20th, 2008 08:38 pm by capablanca911 |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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Addendum: I found out the name of the Special Justice that ruled I was not mentally ill or a threat to myself/others. |
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Neplusultra Regular Member
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capablanca911 wrote: I'm working on typing out a fax to the NRA general counsel's office begging for some pro bono help or at least an amicus brief maybe (can that be done?). Does anybody here have a fax machine? When it's done, I can email you with an attachment so you can fax it? I can fax it for you if you want, PM me if you need me to do so and I'll give you my email address. Can't you email them the doc? Do you have a link to the the article? And do they let you make comments like Tech's school paper does on their website :^)? |
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deepdiver Activist Member
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capablanca911 wrote: Some bonehead in UVA (Charlottsville) compared me to Mohammed Atta in their paper.Good deal. Make copies and save them for the libel suit after you are exonerated on the rest of the issues. |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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http://www.cavalierdaily.com/CVarticle.asp?ID=32841&pid=1704 Let's not quote it here because your readership is so much larger than theirs lol! |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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Update: I have scheduled a consultation with the NRA recommendation Mr. Kurtin in Roanoke for Wednesday. It's a free consult--3 hour drive. |
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deepdiver Activist Member
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capablanca911 wrote: http://www.cavalierdaily.com/CVarticle.asp?ID=32841&pid=1704What a tool! First off based on his language I am guessing he is not a native of this country which may explain his lack of comprehension. The world changes, and we and our liberties should adapt with it accordingly instead of pretending that nothing has changed.Liberty does not adapt. We are free or we are not. If we adapt, or as he clearly intends, restrict, our liberties in response to the terrorists, then they win as that is their entire purpose. Sorry- guess that was a little OT. Good luck on the meeting with the atty tomorrow!!! |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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Allow me to paraphrase his argument: Crimestop is doubleplusgood. Big Brother will never let me down. |
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t3rmin Regular Member
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Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength. |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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Lol! Those bastards already sent me to Room 101...I ain't goin' back! |
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Pointman Regular Member
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Talk about sensationalism in the article from The Cavalier Daily: "illegally possessing weapons on school property": It's not against the law, but against policy. "He also had a criminal record -- having served a year-long probation at the University after facing serious charges of public drunken behavior." Academic probation is quite different from a crime. ---- I'm glad the attorney situation has improved for you. |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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And of course I wasn't involuntarily committed... But hey, facts are stupid things. lol |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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Legalese disclaimer: Unverified rumor! So a birdy has informed me that a student on campus (who has an undisclosed documented mental 'disability') called someone and left a voice message saying he was going to shoot up the school. And apparently people are getting us confused (I sometimes go by my middle name, Daniel, which is his first name). *sigh* So are students more or less safe with one less armed CHP holding vet on campus? I've got my journalists on it. I'll update later. |
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Neplusultra Regular Member
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capablanca911 wrote: Update: I have scheduled a consultation with the NRA recommendation Mr. Kurtin in Roanoke for Wednesday. It's a free consult--3 hour drive. That's a nice cruise, I hope you enjoy it. A three hour cruise, a three hour cruise :^). Good that it's free too. Who ever you see as a student I'm sure you know to take notes or use a voice recorder so you don't forget any of this high dollar advice. Does anyone have suggestions on the best way to get donations to Steve or the lawyers? Also, if you win big with a huge settlement do we get our money back :^)? I'm all for making the other guy pay for defending our rights!!!!! |
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Neplusultra Regular Member
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deepdiver wrote: capablanca911 wrote:Some bonehead in UVA (Charlottsville) compared me to Mohammed Atta in their paper.Good deal. Make copies and save them for the libel suit after you are exonerated on the rest of the issues. Excellent! Edit: Actually it would probably make better evidence for a defamation of character suit against UVA. Libel against the student newspaper would be a good scare tactic to prevent them from doing likewise in the future but I doubt it would get further than that being they were only acting on information they had. The SOURCE (or better CAUSE) of that information would be a much "softer" target. Last edited on Fri Mar 21st, 2008 03:20 am by Neplusultra |
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packingdressagerider Regular Member
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capablanca911 wrote: Update: I have scheduled a consultation with the NRA recommendation Mr. Kurtin in Roanoke for Wednesday. It's a free consult--3 hour drive. Great, I'm glad. I was getting worried about this. |
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peter nap Regular Member
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deepdiver wrote: capablanca911 wrote:http://www.cavalierdaily.com/CVarticle.asp?ID=32841&pid=1704What a tool! First off based on his language I am guessing he is not a native of this country which may explain his lack of comprehension. Duh....You think he might be a foreigner using a name like Prasanth Parameswaran. Don't get me started on East Indians telling me how MY COUNTRY should be run  Last edited on Fri Mar 21st, 2008 03:33 am by peter nap |
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deepdiver Activist Member
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peter nap wrote: deepdiver wrote:Laff ... I did note his name. His grammatical and word choices were just confirmationcapablanca911 wrote:http://www.cavalierdaily.com/CVarticle.asp?ID=32841&pid=1704What a tool! First off based on his language I am guessing he is not a native of this country which may explain his lack of comprehension. |
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packingdressagerider Regular Member
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peter nap wrote:
I didn't care for Prasanth Parameswaran's pert opinions. For someone who is not of this country, he has no understanding of how things are. |
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peter nap Regular Member
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packingdressagerider wrote: I shouldn't have brought that up. It's OT and just one of my many personal prejudices.....That should stay, personal. |
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packingdressagerider Regular Member
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peter nap wrote: packingdressagerider wrote: Oh, I'm thinking of how much this person doesn't know about our history, and why we have the 2nd amendment. I can't think of too many countries that have liberal gun laws. |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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I'm also taking a trip to Legal Aid today to see if they can get the hearing to get my permit re-instated. I wonder what trick the Commonwealth Attorney will pull though... |
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peter nap Regular Member
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capablanca911 wrote: I'm also taking a trip to Legal Aid today to see if they can get the hearing to get my permit re-instated. If legal aid won't help, ask your attorney (When you get one) if he can handle it as a package. I'm concerned that you will have to present evidence to reinstate that would be best kept quiet until you litigate your case. Either way, GOOD LUCK! |
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LEO 229 Regular Member
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capablanca911 wrote: I'm also taking a trip to Legal Aid today to see if they can get the hearing to get my permit re-instated. Good luck..... Keep us informed. |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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peter nap wrote: If legal aid won't help, ask your attorney (When you get one) if he can handle it as a package. I'm concerned that you will have to present evidence to reinstate that would be best kept quiet until you litigate your case. Good point. I'll wait until I talk to the lawyer on Wed. |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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Update: The lawyer is sick and I have to reschedule for April 2nd. |
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Sleepless Regular Member 
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Doug Huffman wrote: <SNIP> Wyatt said in a report that he was waiting in the lobby while Barber met with a counselor. Wyatt said he received a page from Dean Jewell Worley. Wyatt said in the report that Worley then told him that Barber was “going to be committed” and had been expelled and banned from school property pending a March 6 hearing with Vice Chancellor Gary Juhan.</SNIP> I would like to know if he received the page from Dean Worley before, while or after Steven had seen the councellor, maybe I am just reading it wrong but it looks like it was before he had seen the councellor. Any thoughts?? |
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uspsmark Regular Member
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Geez...I'm usually pretty well informed, but I just found this board and read all 10 pages dealing with this young man's problem. I live just 12 miles from Gate City and am apalled at the way this situation was handled. If you need any assistance, feel free to contact me and I will do whatever I can. Good luck and keep us all posted on the developments... |
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ama-gi Regular Member
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uspsmark wrote: Geez...I'm usually pretty well informed, but I just found this board and read all 10 pages dealing with this young man's problem. I live just 12 miles from Gate City and am apalled at the way this situation was handled. If you need any assistance, feel free to contact me and I will do whatever I can. Good luck and keep us all posted on the developments... Welcome to the forum, Mark! |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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Nickelsville eh? Fascinating! |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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Bad news: NRA recommended lawyer says $70,000-$100,000 total probably. $20,000 just to get my permit re-instated. BTW, he pointed out that it says "...was involuntarily committed pursuant to section 37.2-1012..." --that section has NOTHING to do with involuntary committal. I'm going to Legal Aid tomorrow to get further help on just the permit. The Boss says the permit is first. (I realize that many of you have rightly said that previously, but I needed to hear it from a lawyer). I've discovered some more shenninagins in the TDO stuff--I'll update later. |
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LEO 229 Regular Member
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Ouch!! |
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Neplusultra Regular Member
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capablanca911 wrote: Bad news: NRA recommended lawyer says $70,000-$100,000 total probably. $20,000 just to get my permit re-instated. BTW, he pointed out that it says "...was involuntarily committed pursuant to section 37.2-1012..." --that section has NOTHING to do with involuntary committal. Did the lawyer give reasons why it would cost so much? Sounds a little out of the park. And what did he say of the merit of the case and whether UVA could be made to pay all legal fees? The dollar amount wouldn't matter if you could recover your costs plus. |
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peter nap Regular Member
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Neplusultra wrote: capablanca911 wrote:Bad news: NRA recommended lawyer says $70,000-$100,000 total probably. $20,000 just to get my permit re-instated. BTW, he pointed out that it says "...was involuntarily committed pursuant to section 37.2-1012..." --that section has NOTHING to do with involuntary committal. Man..............  I've always said that justice was expensive but that's a little spendy.There's bound to be a GOOD lawyer out there that will take the permit case pro se and the litigation on a contingency |
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packingdressagerider Regular Member
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This is shocking. Wondering if there is any way that a fundraiser could be started, or something. |
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Toad Regular Member
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The key here is that was an NRA recommended lawyer requesting that ridiculous sum. If they pointed you to a lawyer that would do it for an affordable sum they would loose leverage in “nickel and dime’ing” you with their fundraisers. The NRA could not survive financially if people just went around fighting and beating all the illegal anti-2A laws at the standard poor mans rate |
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deepdiver Activist Member
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The $70k+ for the suit isn't that shocking as I assume it is a federal case rather than a state case. Lawyers tell me that no matter how slam dunk, simple, straight forward a case is it costs a minimum of $10k to walk into your first hearing in a federal court. What makes me go is $20k to get your permit back. |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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He said if I was as clean as the wind-driven snow, then there was a small chance that the NRA Defense Fund would chip in--but that he had been this area's 2nd A. guy for many many years and never saw them do that. And I'm not that clean...so he said no way could I get it. He did say that the venue would be Wise county for suing the college and Scott county for getting the permit back--vice Charlettsville. So my underground newspaper has a lead on a student (with some unknown mental disability) who left a voicemail threatening to kill another student. One guy is claiming that he came after him with a butcher knife. Campus police were at least informed of the threat because they have the recording... They didn't TDO him for homicidal ideation... |
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Neplusultra Regular Member
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capablanca911 wrote: So my underground newspaper has a lead on a student (with some unknown mental disability) who left a voicemail threatening to kill another student. One guy is claiming that he came after him with a butcher knife. Really!? I'd keep that little tidbit in a file for potential use later. |
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Repeater Regular Member
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Style Weekly has this article on mental health, the use of TDO's and what's happening in Virginia in anticipation of the new mental health law: Self Control Post-Virginia Tech, politicians are in a rush to lock up patients with severe mental illness. But some people say there’s a better way. by Amy Biegelsen Excerpt The idea is that having a mental illness is a struggle, but a manageable one, like losing a limb or having diabetes. With the recovery model — which originated in the treatment of drug and alcohol addiction — the goal is to recover as much of a normal life as possible, not just to reduce the symptoms with drugs. The recovery movement has yielded concrete programs and therapies, many of which have been adopted by the public mental health system. As for public policy, it’s a position that’s been gaining momentum, at least on paper, at the state and federal levels in the last five years. Then came Virginia Tech. Seung-Hui Cho, a student who seemed to have been lost in the mental-health system, took 33 lives, including his own, on campus last April. Since the details emerged about Cho and his problems, public discussion on mental health has been dominated by questions of how to prevent a repeat of the tragedy — and the situation that may have led to it. Specifically, the debate has focused on how to make it easier for the state to force people with mental illnesses into a psychiatric hospital if they seem likely to pose a threat to public safety. For recovery advocates, such forced treatment presents a queasy proposition of curing an illness with a court order and infringing on civil rights. During the legislative session that ended in March, mental-health advocates were unable to stop lawmakers from making it easier — and in their view more likely — to legally execute forced hospitalizations. Virginia law had allowed a judge to order Cho, the Virginia Tech shooter, to find treatment, but none was available and no one followed up. The system seemed to require someone to get “too bad” before they were committed, Reinhard says. But hospitalization “traumatizes” people unnecessarily and at greater cost than the less-restrictive options the state says it supports, he says: “Perhaps we didn’t do either as well as we could.” Central to the General Assembly debate that followed was how to make it easier to hospitalize people against their will. Hospitalization is a constant concern for mental-health patients. But the worst-case scenario is forced hospitalization after a temporary detention order — getting “TDOed.” Although it’s necessary in some cases, recovery advocates worry that it happens more than it should and say the event itself is traumatizing. “The sense of humiliation and shame is astonishing,” says David Mangano, a public mental health official in Chesterfield County. |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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"But the worst-case scenario is forced hospitalization after a temporary detention order — getting 'TDOed.'" |
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Tomahawk Regular Member
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capablanca911 wrote: "But the worst-case scenario is forced hospitalization after a temporary detention order — getting 'TDOed.'" Isn't that like "getting Nifonged"? |
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Citizen Founder's Club Member
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Tomahawk wrote: capablanca911 wrote:"But the worst-case scenario is forced hospitalization after a temporary detention order — getting 'TDOed.'" Worse, much worse. You are now in the clutches of people who can force you to take mind altering drugs. And would probably do so. I don't trust that the drugs wouldn't have permanent effects on the brain and nervous system. Maybe it will be over pretty quickly for you, though. You might be sentenced to electro-shock therapy and be one of the (thousands?) that have died from it. |
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Nelson_Muntz Activist Member
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I'm gonna be sick.  |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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I knew a guy there that would pretend to take his meds, then spit them out later. They proscribed me generic Ambien on the first day without me even seeing the doctor and I was sleeping fine. Thank God it was optional for me to take (I opted out.) |
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Tomahawk Regular Member
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capablanca911 wrote: I knew a guy there that would pretend to take his meds, then spit them out later. Really? They were trying to give you drugs? That's completley F'ed up. |
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Citizen Founder's Club Member
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capablanca911 wrote: I knew a guy there that would pretend to take his meds, then spit them out later. Since when can anybody without an MD behind their name prescribe medication? |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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I imagine that the doctor prescribes it pro forma. But I dunno. |
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deepdiver Activist Member
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In some states nurse practictioners can prescribe certain medications, but I do not know if that is the case with either VA or ambien. |
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packingdressagerider Regular Member
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deepdiver wrote: In some states nurse practictioners can prescribe certain medications, but I do not know if that is the case with either VA or ambien. I see one myself. I haven't seen any thing yet that she couldn't prescribe. Reason for edit: dang dyslexia Last edited on Wed Apr 9th, 2008 02:36 pm by packingdressagerider |
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swillden Regular Member 
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Repeater wrote: Specifically, the debate has focused on how to make it easier for the state to force people with mental illnesses into a psychiatric hospital if they seem likely to pose a threat to public safety. For recovery advocates, such forced treatment presents a queasy proposition of curing an illness with a court order and infringing on civil rights. This got me to thinking... Supposing that these were the only choices, either lock up everyone who might have a problem, or accept that tragedies like VA Tech will occasionally happen, which is worse, really? I strongly suspect that if you compare person-years wasted in hospitals by people who are basically able to get by to person-years of life lost by those killed by cases like Cho, locking up all of the maybe-Cho's is orders of magnitude worse, especially if the policy is extrapolated nationwide. This goes back to a big problem I have with our nation today. We value breathing above life. By that I mean that we're willing reduce the quality of life of millions in order to keep one person alive. The great men who declared independence saw it exactly the opposite. Sam Adams was perhaps a little louder than most, but he captured the basic sentiment well, "Give me liberty or give me death!" For example: 9/11 was unarguably tragic. On the other hand, it killed fewer people than die on the highways every month and did less property damage than a major hurricane of the sort that happens every few years. In terms of direct, real effect on the nation it was a pinprick, and I am of the firm opinion that it would be FAR BETTER to suffer such a pinprick every year or so rather than accept all of the restrictions to our freedoms that have come in its wake. Supposing that gun bans really worked, I think it would be better to suffer a little more crime and violence in exchange for the freedom to own firearms, and to have the increased ability to overthrow a tyrranical government should that become necessary. Heck, I'm even annoyed that it is illegal for my kids to ride in the back of a pickup truck. I understand the risks, but I also remember the joy of standing behind the cab with the wind blowing through my hair as my dad drove down an empty rural road. If it weren't for the law, I'd caution my kids carefully about the risks, and drive very carefully, but I'd let them ride in the back. I'd ride back there sometimes, too. I still enjoy it. There are dozens more examples, but you get the point. There's a tradeoff to be made between liberty and the quality of life that it brings, and safety. Now, in some cases that makes sense: I support the laws against drunk driving, for example. The damage to safety is fairly large, and the limitation on freedom is small -- you can still get drunk, you just have to get someone else to drive you home. It'd be nice if personal responsibility and potential civil liability were sufficient to dissuade people from driving drunk, but apparently it's not, so we have laws punishing drunk drivers. IMO, that's a reasonable tradeoff. The problem we have is that so often the tradeoffs are never even considered. No one seems to ask "Well, yes that would make us safer, but is it worth the cost in dollars, liberties and quality of life?". Hell, most of the time no one even asks if it would actually make us safer! Until something happens to make the complacent, apathetic bulk of America wake up to the fact that living in a padded cage is not better than living free but with a small risk of dying, I think those of us who do care about freedom will continue fighting a losing rearguard action. |
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deepdiver Activist Member
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What is obscene is that all of this "safety" comes at the point of a gun. If you refuse to be "safe" you will be ticketed, if you refuse the ticket you will be arrested, if you physically refuse the arrest you will be threatened with loss of life .... all to keep you safe. (that is not a criticism of LEO performing the arrest but rather the legislators who utterly fail to understand that ALL gov't enforcement of ANY law they pass is ultimately at the point of a gun) |
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Neplusultra Regular Member
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swillden wrote: Repeater wrote:Specifically, the debate has focused on how to make it easier for the state to force people with mental illnesses into a psychiatric hospital if they seem likely to pose a threat to public safety. For recovery advocates, such forced treatment presents a queasy proposition of curing an illness with a court order and infringing on civil rights. VERY well put Swill!!! I'm going to copy that to my file of quotes! |
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Pointman Regular Member
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+1 Swillden +1 DeepDiver |
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packingdressagerider Regular Member
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peter nap wrote: Damn.....Go to a meeting and miss another troll Shucks, I missed it too. Dang, I knew trolls were in season this spring.  |
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67GT390FB Regular Member
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swillden wrote:
fixed it for ya |
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BB62 State Researcher
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Have you tried contacting F.I.R.E. ? I think you should look into it. http://www.thefire.org/ |
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Neplusultra Regular Member
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67GT390FB wrote: swillden wrote:This goes back to a big problem I have with our nation today. We value breathing above life. By that I mean that we're willing reduce the quality of life of millions in order to keep one person alive. The great men who declared independence saw it exactly the opposite. PATRICK HENRY was perhaps a little louder than most, but he captured the basic sentiment well, "Give me liberty or give me death!" Yeah, I noticed that too but didn't say anything. He might have been in the middle of drinking a cold Sammy and got the names mixed up :^). |
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t3rmin Regular Member
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swillden wrote: This got me to thinking... Supposing that these were the only choices, either lock up everyone who might have a problem, or accept that tragedies like VA Tech will occasionally happen, which is worse, really? I strongly suspect that if you compare person-years wasted in hospitals by people who are basically able to get by to person-years of life lost by those killed by cases like Cho, locking up all of the maybe-Cho's is orders of magnitude worse, especially if the policy is extrapolated nationwide. WOW. This is one of the most insightful things I've read in a long time. I've been trying to articulate the same sentiments but have never done so well. I hope you don't mind if I also copy this for my personal quotes file (and maybe send it to everyone I know...). Last edited on Wed Apr 9th, 2008 05:56 pm by t3rmin |
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Neplusultra Regular Member
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t3rmin wrote: WOW. This is one of the most insightful things I've read in a long time. I've been trying to articulate the same sentiments but have never done so well. I hope you don't mind if I also copy this for my personal quotes file (and maybe send it to everyone I know...). Don't forget to fix the Sam Adams part :^). |
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t3rmin Regular Member
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Neplusultra wrote: t3rmin wrote:WOW. This is one of the most insightful things I've read in a long time. I've been trying to articulate the same sentiments but have never done so well. I hope you don't mind if I also copy this for my personal quotes file (and maybe send it to everyone I know...). Only if I still get to enjoy his brew. |
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swillden Regular Member
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67GT390FB wrote: swillden wrote:This goes back to a big problem I have with our nation today. We value breathing above life. By that I mean that we're willing reduce the quality of life of millions in order to keep one person alive. The great men who declared independence saw it exactly the opposite. PATRICK HENRY was perhaps a little louder than most, but he captured the basic sentiment well, "Give me liberty or give me death!" Doh! Thanks. Yeah, little thinko there. |
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swillden Regular Member
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t3rmin wrote:WOW. This is one of the most insightful things I've read in a long time. I've been trying to articulate the same sentiments but have never done so well. I hope you don't mind if I also copy this for my personal quotes file (and maybe send it to everyone I know...). Thanks and please feel free. |
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capablanca911 Regular Member
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Another editorial about me: http://www.tricities.com/tristate/tri/opinions/letters.apx.-content-articles-TRI-2008-04-08-0003.html |
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Pointman Regular Member
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capablanca911 wrote: Another editorial about me: In the editorial, “UVa-Wise made the right call,” the writer implied that not knowing the outcome of Steve Barber’s mental health evaluation is equivalent to Barber being found a danger to himself and others. First, some education for the lazy journalist. The record of Barber’s hearing is on file at the General District Court clerk’s office and it should be open to the public. If Barber was judged to be a danger to himself or to others, he would have remained in state custody. That he was released after his evaluation speaks for itself. If Barber was judged to be a danger to himself or others, recent changes in state law would mandate the forfeiture of his 2nd Amendment rights. Barber still has the right to keep and bear arms. Do the math. Barber lost his concealed carry permit not by operation of law, but by the fearful overreaction of the commonwealth attorney doing some good old-fashioned CYA. I agree that Barber’s choices that lead to his predicament were questionable. However, it is now apparent in this post-Virginia Tech world that fear, not freedom, rules on our college campuses. Barber did not shout “fire” in a crowded theater. A dark and sinister essay does not even compare to that classic example of where the Supreme Court has drawn the line on the “freedom of speech.” Instead, UVa-Wise is showing classic overreaction based on the fear of what might be. So, now students are best served if they never write anything that might be controversial or perceived as threatening to anyone who might read it. I suppose UVa-Wise (and the Bristol Herald Courier) believes that freedom of expression is a small price for feeling safe on a college campus, right? Jack Smith Bristol, Va. |
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Nozoki Regular Member 
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capablanca911 wrote: Another editorial about me: I've been trying to follow your story. Any luck on getting your permit back? |
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Lysander Regular Member
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Pointman wrote: The record of Barber’s hearing is on file at the General District Court clerk’s office and it should be open to the public. Involuntary civil committment hearing records are generally not publicly available. Nothing in the above message constitutes Legal Advice. Material is provided for informational/entertainment or other purposes and is not intended to constitute or be relied upon as Legal Advice, nor is it tailored to any specific factual situation. This is not an offer to form an attorney-client relationship. This is not advertising, nor intended to be such. While I am an attorney, I am NOT YOUR attorney. |
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LifeLibertyandthepersuitofbetterweapons Regular Member
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This story is being featured in The Wall Street Journal today(05/20/08). Im a former student of Wise and Im completely on Mr. Barbers side on this issue. Heres the link to the article: http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB121124048245705393-C6h0S850XJ7I9GwIiHnkNxBWxls_20080619.html?mod=tff_main_tff_top It seems that quite a few groups are starting to notice that schools are getting out of control around here. I say its time for a lawsuit and hopefully a change in this fascist school policy that completely bans guns. Good luck Mr. Barber! |
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scarletwahoo Regular Member 
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I'm currently a student at UVA(charlottesville) and I can't believe your story. It's disturbing how the school reacted, from what I've read you are a standup guy, a veteran, and only expelled because of the use of one person's powertrip to force his personal belief. The article in the cavalier daily was also ridiculous, but the cavalier daily is also the same newspaper that has posted at good number of anti-Christian and racist cartoons that bring great PR in the news to UVA. http://www.google.com/search?&q=cavalier+daily+cartoons I guess this is another case of the few making the rest look bad. You'll be in my prayers. |
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packingdressagerider Regular Member
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LifeLibertyandthepersuitofbetterweapons wrote: This story is being featured in The Wall Street Journal today(05/20/08). Im a former student of Wise and Im completely on Mr. Barbers side on this issue. Heres the link to the article: http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB121124048245705393-C6h0S850XJ7I9GwIiHnkNxBWxls_20080619.html?mod=tff_main_tff_top Things sure have changed with creative writing classes. When I took creative writing (The Novel, and Short Story) at Dabney S. Lancaster CC, I didn't get harassed like this. All of my stories had guns in them. I haven't changed my writing just because of Va. Tech. I still create speculative genre fiction with characters who carry guns. This sure is intolerable about what happened to Barber. |
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